https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lis t_of_cities_claimed_to_b

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It's not just 7 hills, there are hundreds of reasons why the Papacy is the Antichrist.

http://www.remnantofgod.org/666-CHAR.htm

Only the Vatican fits all the characteristics of the Beast system. No wonder it was illegal to read the Bible in the vernacular during the middle ages - the book of Revelation showed how Roman Catholicism is wrong.

The Reformers universally knew the RCC was Satan's false church, it's sad to see Protestants today fall for the Futurism lie (perpetuated by Catholic Jesuits to get attention away from Rome).

>>2553149
Because the second part of the bible verse is "and rules over the kings of the earth". And it was written in 95 AD. Present tense.

Rome is Babylon.
Roman Catholicism is Mystery Babylon. The exact same pagan practices that they were doing before; they just literally changed the names on the statues.

>>2553202
The more people who know the Jesuit Order is an order of assassins, the better.

>>2553149
Here's the bible verse.

Revelation 17
And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”

Here's the woman he saw:

The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication. And on her forehead a name was written:

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS
OF THE EARTH.

>>2553202
>>2553213
>>2553230
Are there any sources on this stuff the pre-date 1517?

>>2553239
Absolutely. Why do you think that date is important?

>>2553314
So what are they and how far back do they predate? Are these sources backed up by secular historians?

>>2553239
Sinaiticus (340-350 A.D.) is the second oldest existing member of the Alexandrian family of manuscripts. It often is abbreviated as "Aleph" or is called uncial 01.

What has been preserved:
...
The New Testament is all preserved, except the scribes did not include John 7:53-8:11, and a blank space reserved for Mark 16:9-20. Sinaiticus contains all of Romans (minus 16:24) in the same order as Bibles today.

lexandrinus (c.450 A.D) have all of Revelation.

>>2553347
>Are these sources backed up by secular historians?

No clue why this is your question. Really. Either the manuscripts exist or they do not.

>>2553350
*Alexandrinus

Because people try to legitimize stuff

>>2553362
Yeah, okay. One expert says yes, one expert says no.

Now what.

>>2553354
Well, existing doesn't merely denote validity. That's why medieval forgeries are a thing after all.

Have secular historians validated the ages of these "Catholics are Evil" documents to the first millennium?

>>2553347
Bohairic Coptic 3rd/4th century
Sahidic Coptic 3rd/4rth century
Ephraemi Rescriptus 5th century
Armenian [Arm] from 5th century
Ethiopic [Eth] from c.500 A.D.
Philoxenian Syriac 507/508 A.D. Bishop Philoxenus of Mabug
Harclean Syriac [Syr H] 616.A.D Thomas of Harkel

Couple more.

>>2553376
Yes, looks like they start picking up in the 3rd century. >>2553381

Why does the RCC have to be the good guy? Would the good guy discourage reading Revelation? Would the good guy teach the bible in a foreign language? Would the good guy burn all bibles in a foreign language? Would the good guy chain the bible shut to the pulpit? Would the good guy tell you the bible is beyond you, so don't read it for yourself?

No, once the scales drop from your eyes you see the Whore not as a beautiful woman, but as a vicious beast.

>>2553239
No, you won't find them. You'll only hear "Muh bible."

Everything being spewed in this thread is new age protestant propaganda.

To answer your question, protestants must demonize the church to validate their heresy. I could believe that Rome itself could be referred to in revelations, but not the Vatican itself.

>>2553381
Okay so are those "Protestant" or "Orthodox" though? The dates are close to the Great Schism and East versus West had different issues than the Reformers and I've seen a lot of Christians say Orthodox churches are equally whorish. Something about "two bronze legs of the same statue" or something.

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Catholicism is a religion of peace guys!

d-don't listen to those silly protties!

>>2553401
See >>2553381

Also see >>2553350

>>2553406
Eastern Orthodoxy is just Catholicism without a pope, and a bit of mysticism.

>>2553406
They are manuscripts. The manuscripts do not have their own denominations.

Holy shit what fucking questions are these.

>>2553417
Two legs on the same statue that Daniel described to Nebuchadnezzar. Both legs ruled Rome for a thousand years.

Both will be pulverized by Jesus.

>>2553401
That's what I'm asking about, hence the picture in my original post. The hill Vatican is and always has been seen as wholly distinct from the Seven Hills of Rome, even before Christianity started. So I'm wondering why a completely separate Hill is included in the Roman Seven despite a traditionally not being one of the Roman Seven. I'm wondering where this tradition started and when. And also which Roman hill gets kicked out of the seven to incorporate Vatican and keep the arc number.

>>2553419
Didn't Nebuchadnezzar pre-date Rome by several centuries?

>>2553431
First off, the Bishop of Rome lives in the Vatican and has control over both the Vatican and Rome. i.e. the pope. So there is no separation between Rome and the Vatican.

Second, the Vatican was built long after the bible was finished. Think of it as the Whore having her own apartment next to the main house.

I'll spell it out for you again.

Rome is Babylon.
Roman Catholicism is Mystery Babylon.
The popes are the false prophets of Mystery Babylon.

We say this, and have always said this, because it is in the bible.

>>2553418
Well, "Protestants" is a distinction that only appeared in 1517, and between the years 300 and 600 "Catholic and Orthodox" started becoming separate distinct sects so I'm asking if those are seen as traditionally Protestant or Orthodox texts.

>>2553436
Yes. His empire was the head of gold, the purest kingdom. His word was law. He alone reigned. He was conquered by the Medo-Persians, the silver chest on the statue. More diluted government. Less pure. Less valuable. They were conquered by the Greeks, the brass waist and thighs of the statue. Then the Romans, the iron legs of the statue, and finally the future kingdom of the Antichrist, made up of iron from Rome and broken pottery shards from other types of nations. The 10 Kingdom NWO of the Antichrist. Note that iron and pottery shards do not mix well, and this is the weakest of all the empires.

Then the rock uncut by human hands rolls in and smashes this Empire of Man statue, and the rock grows until it fills the earth. This is Jesus ruling the earth from Jerusalem in the not-too-distant future.

>>2553450
Which is why I despise the word. It's just another papist lie.

The "protestants" including Martin Luther were all CATHOLICS.

>>2553450
They're just the texts dude. They are what they are.

>>2553451
Why would Persia be more diluted or less pure than Babylon?

Babylon was a brutal pagan nation.

Persia is somewhat seen as a positive force in the book of Kings and Chronicles. Cyrus freed the Jews. The Zoroastrian religion, technically pagan, is almost monotheistic and it borrows from a scroll of Isaiah.

>>2553440
>First off, the Bishop of Rome lives in the Vatican and has control over both the Vatican and Rome. i.e. the pope. So there is no separation between Rome and the Vatican.

What about the Lateran treaty? Or the several centuries of the papacy refusing to acknowledge the existence of the Kingdom of Italy?

>Second, the Vatican was built long after the bible was finished.
Aren't most "protestant" sects that way too though?

>Mystery Babylon
I'm not a Christian so that doesn't mean anything to me, what is that and what does it have to do with the ancient civilization located in modern-day Iraq?

God you Christians delude yourselves on the craziest shit. ALIUMSfags have nothing on you apes.

What is it about Jesus that attracts the kooks?

>>2553475
It was two countries, two peoples, so no one person's word was law.

Nebuchadnezzar literally had no one else ruling with him. Which is why he thought he was god on earth, until the real God humbled him by making him live like a beast for 7 years.

>>2553486
0/10 weak bait

>>2553455
So Lutherans are Catholics then?

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>>2553485
Mystery Babylon basically refers to an entity or group that practices the ancient Babylonian religion.

Babel is where all the world's paganism comes from (see the Tower of Babel story). Everything that is antichrist, false and satanic.

Roman Catholicism is a crypto-pagan religion. On the outside it claims to be Christian, but when you actually look at their rituals, creeds, beliefs and dogmas, it bears a resemblance with the ancient Babylonian religion.

Jesus warned us of "Mystery Babylon", wolves in sheep's clothing.

Satan's counterfeit church did a good job suppressing the true Gospel in Europe, but real Christians were still thriving in MENA. So in 600 AD he made Islam to block the Gospel there as well.

>>2553503
Catholics are Catholics.

I know it's difficult, but try to pay attention.

>>2553522
So what are some secular sources that corroborate this? And if >>2553455
is correct and all the Reformers were former Catholics, how were they able to completely shed every single vestige of some ancient Babylonian whatever and leave only real Christianity? Because I watch different church services between different sects on YouTube and maybe it's just because I don't care about the intricacies of Christian mythology but they all look pretty much the same.

>>2553522
>Babel is where all the world's paganism comes from (see the Tower of Babel story)

Well that's nonsense, but it explains where you are coming from

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>>2553545
>Facts are nonsense

>>2553544
Because there were always real Christians outside of Rome, who did not bend the knee to Rome, and managed not to be murdered by Rome.

Rome murdered people in the tens of millions over the past thousand years.

>>2553545
How is the truth "nonsense" to a sane man?

>>2553536
Yeah but >>2553455 said all the reformers were Catholic so are the new sects that came out of the Reformation still Catholic or not? And if they aren't, how did that happen?

>>2553569
>>2553555

he's probably an atheist who bought into the evolution meme

>>2553573
This isn't a team sport.

Catholics within the Catholic church were appalled by how evil it was, and tried to get it to reform itself. Instead of reforming itself, it launched a war against those former Catholics, as they had all been excommunicated.

The bible got out of the church's grasp, and just as the printer promised, the plow boy soon knew more about the bible than any Catholic magisterium.

The worship of Jesus as God.
The reading of the Word of God.
Praying to God in Jesus' name.
Being filled with the Holy Spirit of God.

These are the things that led to the explosion of Christianity, and the transformation of the world. The power of God unleashed.

>>2553579
It's just so odd. If I said that this Freemason lodge had roots in ancient Egypt, he'd believe that in a second. Tell him the Roman church has roots in Babylon religions and suddenly it's the oddest thing in the world.

>>2553494
No, I'm genuinely curious. Jews don't go through these crazy zany conspiracytard phases or Jerusalem syndrome. Muslims don't either.

What is it about Jesus that attracts the clinically insane?

>>2553565
>Because there were always real Christians outside of Rome, who did not bend the knee to Rome, and managed not to be murdered by Rome.
So the Orthodox Church then? Because if that's the case then why do some Christians say that they're the same thing as the Catholics even though they fit your criteria of Christians outside of Rome that did not obey the Papacy and didn't get destroyed like Nestorians and Arians?

>Rome murdered people in the tens of millions over the past thousand years.

I'm pretty sure that's completely impossible given what historians say about ancient world populations, most agree that it was only about 3-400 million people worldwide in 1400

>>2553610
(You)

>>2553599
Freemasonry did not exist in ancient Egypt.

>>2553610
Both Jews and Muslims are insane in that they cannot and do not know that Jesus is God.

That is true insanity.

The Pharisees were talking to their God, and did not know it.

An angel told an Arab everything in the bible is true, and then tells him a directly contradictory story about how Jesus is not God, did not die, did not raise from the dead, and all muslims believe it.

Even though it was coming from satan, which Mohammad knew from the beginning, and almost killed himself over.

And then there's you.

2000 years of information at your fingertips, and you can't figure out that Jesus is God either.

You want to see insane? Buy a mirror.

>>2553619
No.

Christianity is not a team sport. It is an individual meeting his Creator and being reconciled to said Creator for failing to be like aforementioned Creator.

No church ever saved anyone, and no church ever will.

>>2553627
Egypt did not build with stones.

This is the "high level of discourse" we can expect here?

>>2553599
I wouldn't believe either of those things because they are nonsense. And the tower of babel story didn't happen. Everyone in circa 2000BC did not all speak the same language and the certainly didn't all start talking in different ones on the same date

>>2553648
No, I'm saying Freemasonry as an organization doesn't predate 1600.

>>2553653
I'd like to see some proof and sources for all those claims you're making, buddy.

>>2553646
So then why are Baptists and Presbyterians even a thing? Don't the many sects have various conflicting ideas about salvation that should make them as invalid as Catholics?

>>2553653
Glad you were there to give us your eyewitness report.

>>2553653
Yes it did.
And yes they did.

You can deny history all you want, it won't change the past.

>>2553661
Maybe slow down and read my post again, you obtuse twit.

>>2553665
>IMPLYIGN ANYONE ITT HAS PROOF OR SOURCES

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

>>2553641
>reddit spacing

didn't read lol

>>2553590
So how did they manage to figure out what was Christian and what was Pagan? I was raised Lutheran and I don't really see a lot of differences in Catholic services that I don't see in Baptist services.

It's all the same singing and bible verses and preaching and crackers and juice. I don't get what you are talking about with "obvious ancient Babylonian paganism."

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>>2553693
I have historical records from people who were there.

The burden of proof is on you to disprove it.

>>2553690
>Egypt did not build with stones.
>This is the "high level of discourse" we can expect here?

OK what was I supposed to notice?

>>2553677
Because there are many different personalities who are Christians, and they tend to congregate together. Baptists tend to be a little boring, homey, staid, tried and true.

Other people like to jump up and down and run around full of the Spirit.

I can't really tell you what Presbyterians do, because I haven't been to their services.

Many different denominations differ on things that are not critical to biblical truth. Things like immersion baptism v sprinkling. Wine for communion v grape juice. Baptizing infants, not baptizing infants.

Whatever a man believes and is convinced in his heart is true, that he should do.

>>2553704
you are practicing cultural christianity, just religion. just traditions.

you need to be born again. actually understand what it means to be a christian

>>2553707
Actually burden of proof lies on the person making a positive claim, not the negative claim. By asserting that the Bible is 100% historical fact and true, you are making the positive claim.

>>2553704
By the guidance of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, and by the knowledge of what pagans do. Everything anyone needs to know about being a Christian is contained in the bible.

I'll give you some examples of pagan practices that carried over into Roman Catholicism.

The Christian Church for the first three hundred years remained somewhat pure and faithful to the Word of God, but after the pseudo-conversion of Constantine, who for political expedience declared Christianity the state religion, thousands of pagans were admitted to the church by baptism alone with out true conversion. They brought with them pagan rites which they boldly introduced into the church with Christian terminology, thus corrupting the primitive faith. Even the noted Catholic prelate and theologian, Cardinal Newman, tells us that Constantine introduced many things of pagan origin: "We are told in various ways by Eusebius, that Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own...The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison, are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church." An Essay On The Development Of Christian Doctrine, pp. 359, 360. This unholy alliance also allowed the continuance of the pagan custom of eating and drinking the literal flesh and literal blood of their god. This is actually how transubstantiation entered the professing church.

>>2553677
Different flavors.

Protestants all tend to agree on the most important issues, like salvation in grace through faith.

The differences are minor, the denominations are just little flavors denoting what you believe on a specific issue or doctrine.

>>2553712
That masonry is the working of stone.

>>2553722
>implying christfags know what positive and negative claims are

it's just GAWWWWWWD and NO GAWWWWWD and if you NO GAWWWWDD you go to HAEEEEEELLLLLL

very simple, very easy to regurgitate at will which the ants do with marvelous splendor and great pomp

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>>2553149
Excuse me, why is Babylon "bad" again?

>Be Semites.
>Live like squabbling rats in tiny kingdoms whose borders stretch from one hill to another.
>Always be subjects of greater powers.
>But be mad at one of the greatest cities in history.

>>2553722
Yup. And any time you want to show where it is not, feel free.

You'll be famous. First person in 3500 years to demonstrate the Word of God is not true!

>>2553726
>By the guidance of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit
I mean academically and historically, not mysticism.

>>2553722
I just told you, historical records from people who lived in those times. I have proof.

You need to prove that it did not happen, and to explain why the people said it did happen.

>>2553750
>>2553737
see? GAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWD and NO GAWWWWWWWWWWWD

very simple, very easy to regurgitate at will which the ants do with marvelous splendor and great pomp

>>2553719
I'm not a Lutheran anymore, I'm not practicing anything.

And if religion has nothing to do with being Christian what the hell does "Christian" matter as a term? If I just "accept Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior" but then do nothing to actually follow through on that beyond reading an old book and saying some little mnemonic prayers before meals, what does it even matter?

Hell, from the sound of that just saying "Jesus is my personal Lord and Savior" and only that is literally all anyone needs to not burn in hell so why do Christians care about other religions and non-religions existing if all they have to do to be saved is say they accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior?

>>2553715
>Baptists
>boring

I see you have never seen Charles Lawson then.

https://www.youtube.com/user/zion4131/videos

He is always on fire.

>>2553734
The story of the earth is the story of the war in heaven.

God on one side, with Jerusalem as his capital, and the devil on the other, with Babylon as his capital.

God says spread out over the earth and multiply, and subdue the planet.

The devil says let's all gather in one place and make a name for ourselves, and build a tower that can get us into heaven.

God or the devil.
Jerusalem or Babylon

These are the choices everyone makes. The default choice is the devil and Babylon; you have to make an affirmative choice to regain the life lost by Adam and be saved.

You think Babylon is a great city?

The New Jerusalem is 2/3 the size of the moon, with 144 cubit walls and 12 foundations each of precious stones. The river of life flows through it, and the trees of life give off their fruit every month, their leaves being medicine for the earthbound. The New Jerusalem is a satellite city with streets of gold and 12 gates each of a pearl, where the bounty of the earth flows and the glory of God shines from above to light the earth.

Babylon is a child's mud hut next to the New Jerusalem.

>>2553755
Straw man.

>>2553746
No clue why you think mankind's conventions are more powerful, reliable, or real than the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit of God.

>>2553734

The Christians hate Babylon because the Jews hate Babylon, the jews hate Babylon because Irsael took big babylonian cock.

>>2553715
So then why does being Catholic matter if on the most basal line they all agree with Protestants on the most basic aspects of Christian religion and honestly believe themselves to be followers of Jesus Christ?

>>2553755
The claim is that the bible is true.

You say the bible is false.

You provide no example where the bible is false.

DEEEEEEEEEEEVVVVVVVVVVVIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLLLLL and DDDDDDDEEEEEEEEVVVVVVVVVIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL are your only retreat.

>>2553771
Because I'm not religious.
Honestly it's you who have the ridiculous position that is at odds with everyone else, not me.

>>2553760
To accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior requires not only declaring it, but believing in your heart God raised him from the dead. It's a two part effort; merely knowing Jesus is Lord is insufficient.

It's like saying Jesus was just a good man, a teacher, or even a messiah or a prophet.

It's like saying "Lord, Lord".

Why do we care about saving the lost? Because Jesus loves the lost, and wants them to be saved.

>>2553761
Good for him. I favor a Southern Baptist church myself.

>>2553734
Actually the problem was that at the time the Jews had gone through a bit of a Civil War and divided into two kingdoms, and then Babylon showed up kick the asses of the northern kingdom and then later kick the asses of the southern kingdom destroyed the temple in Jerusalem and basically shuffled all the Jews into Media, thousands of miles away.

It basically endeared them to Babylon about as much as the Trail of Tears did Native Americans to Congress, and why Cyrus King of Persia was seen as a messianic figure by the Jews since he kicked Babylon's ass and help the Jews both get back to their homeland and rebuild their temple.

It's really fascinating from on the historical standpoint.

>>2553780
The bible is a collection of supernatural myths, it's as "true" as the beliefs of the people who wrote it.
Do Christians automatically assume that everyone has to hold their religious tenants?
There's no purpose to this, it's just an excuse for you to rant your little poems.

>>2553794
So then I can live a sexually promiscuous and drunken life as long as I always believe that Jesus will raise me from the dead on the last day?

Seems kind of cheap

>>2553803
The Bible is a collection of history, wisdom, truths and prophesies (that always come true).

>>2553777
Because they don't. They recite creeds and mouth prayers but their hearts are far from Jesus. He's not real in their lives; the church is real, and Mary is real, but Jesus is still dead on the cross to them. Hence their crucifixes and the pope's staff have Jesus in an obnoxious and obscene position on the broken cross.

It would be like setting up your son's funeral who was shot to death in a gang war by staging a photograph of your dead son's brains blown out on the sidewalk. Do people do that? No, they put the High School graduation photo up instead. To remember the departed on a good day, not on their worst day.

This is what Jesus says about people like the Catholics:

Therefore the Lord said:

“Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths
And honor Me with their lips,
But have removed their hearts far from Me,
And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,
Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work
Among this people,
A marvelous work and a wonder;
For the wisdom of their wise men shall perish,
And the understanding of their prudent men shall be hidden.”

and

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

If an individual Catholic is saved, which is what would make heaven rejoice, I do not believe the Holy Spirit would allow him to be comfortable in the Whore of Babylon's pews.

>>2553786
My position is lined up with God.

Your position is hostile and rebellious against God.

Which of us has the untenable position again?

>>2553805
If you are a born-again Christian, you are incapable of doing that.

It's a life changing event. Things you used to love you will suddenly hate.

>>2553803
The 66 books of the bible written by about 40 men of all stations in life over about 1500 years is the inspired Word of God, telling the story of the earth from beginning to end, and telling the story of the redemption of mankind after his fall.

There are no myths in the bible.

>>2553805
This is how people think before the Holy Spirit sets up shop within them.

After the Holy Spirit sets up shop within you, you will not want to live that kind of a broken, empty and degenerate life.

Your wants will change.

And the lifeblood of God himself is not "cheap".

>>2553815
>Which of us has the untenable position again?
The fringe cultist, lol.

>>2553780
GAWWWWWWWDDD and NO GAWWWWWWWDD as I keep saying. It's a mantra, they repeat it endlessly to themselves so nobody has any chance of shining light through.

very simple, very easy to regurgitate at will which the ants do with marvelous splendor and great pomp. christians make the perfect communists.

>>2553829
Rebelling against God is foolish.

The least of the fallen angels could kill mankind in an instant, unrestrained, yet the collective bunch of them could not scratch him, or cause him to break a fingernail.

The leader of this rebellion staged the most foolish coup in the history of the universe, and it lasted one heartbeat.

And you, the fool, want to throw your lot in with him, the loser, the hellbound devil himself.

I'd say YOU are the fringe cultist, not me.

>>2553840
You say it, but nobody listens to a fool.

>>2553811
>They recite creeds and mouth prayers but their hearts are far from Jesus. He's not real in their lives
Kind of presumptuous of you to assume to know the thoughts of roughly 2,000,000,000 people like they are all some sort of hive mind.

>It would be like setting up your son's funeral who was shot to death in a gang war by staging a photograph of your dead son's brains blown out on the sidewalk. Do people do that? No, they put the High School graduation photo up instead. To remember the departed on a good day, not on their worst day.

Don't Catholics believe the crucifixion to be Jesus' best day since that's the day he atoned for man's sins and spoke of his death like a Kings coronation? Hell don't all Christians believe that?

>>2553841
do you ever get sick of reading yourself post these every day?

>>2553851
do you ever get sick of using logical fallacies?

there's this thing called arguments, you might wanna try it.

>>2553843
>but nobody listens to a fool.

Oh my sweet summer child.

>>2553857

Not him, but how do you have a logical argument with someone who premises their logic around source material you don't agree is credible?

>>2553857
The "Rebellion against God" cultist is lecturing me about arguments, that's rich.
I'm just worried about you, you post these deranged rants every day, do you have nothing else going on in your life?

>>2553817
>>2553827
I don't know I've met some pretty sinful people with that "FILLEDUH with the SPIRITUH of GODUH!" attitude.

>>2553877
still not an argument.
still tons of ad hominems.

>>2553876
why don't you think bible is credible? list your reason

>>2553884

Lack of evidence for a vast majority of the claims made, including the existence of a deity.

Why do you think the bible is credible, without sourcing the bible?

>>2553883
Everyone sins, it is impossible to be perfect in our current state.

A unbeliever is a slave to sin. He loves his sin.
A Christian hates and struggles with his sin.

>>2553884
It's an ancient collection of supernatural myths edited to conform to a religious dogma.

>>2553892
The historical accounts is evidence of itself.
You read Greco-Roman stories and you have no problem believing them. But when it comes to the Bible, you suddenly become hyper critical. Double standards.

As for the existence of a God, there is tons of arguments for a creator in the realm of philosophy. Feel free to ask.

>>2553894
Proof?

>>2553893
Sounds like being a Christian fucking sucks, being stressed out with anxiety all the time over nothing.

>>2553894
No matter how much you shout "MYTH! MYTH!" it will not change the past.

History is history, whether you like it or not.

>>2553911
>Heaven sucks
>Eternal life sucks
>Happiness, joy, bliss and peace sucks

We don't have anxiety. We are just aware of the sinful body we inhabit, and know that one day we will be resurrected in a glorified one.

>>2553915

>History is history

History is debated constantly, even recent history, let alone shit as old as the fucking bible.

History is also approached with skepticism when an account contradicts reality. Do you also believe accounts of Apollo intervening by hailing arrows of disease on his enemies, or Zeus turning into a swan and fucking some Greek girl pregnant?

>>2553904

>You read Greco-Roman stories and you have no problem believing them.

That's a stupid fucking assumption considering I'm critical of a lot of ancient history, much of it much better proven than assertions of God's existence. I don't take the Illiad literally for the exact same reasons I don't take the bible literally.

>>2553927
Tell me what event or story in the Bible you do not believe.

Shouting "BIBLE IS MYTH" is irrational, because even if you're a philosophical naturalist (don't believe in afterlife or other dimensions) the Bible is 90% normal history). Are you saying Egypt never existed? Are you saying Assyria never existed? Be specific.

Bible is not 1 book, it's a library of books.

>>2553941

Genesis.

>>2553935
God's existence =/= Bible

If it's only the idea of God that you struggle with, you should take that to the atheist vs theist realm, not specific religions.

Why don't you believe in God?

>>2553943
What part of Genesis?

It covers a huge span of time. Be specific.

>>2553941
>Shouting "BIBLE IS MYTH" is irrational, because even if you're a philosophical naturalist (don't believe in afterlife or other dimensions) the Bible is 90% normal history). Are you saying Egypt never existed? Are you saying Assyria never existed? Be specific.

These aren't the assertions I'm questioning, I'm questioning the existence of God. I have no problem with historical accounts in the bible that can be verified with things like archaeology and other accounts. The thing is if you say "He got that right so it's all right" that's shoddy reasoning. Observe as I say one true thing and one very questionable thing.

Egypt is real. Egypt is real because the God Ba'al after he shit out the first Egyptian.

>>2553965
The belief in God is rational, logical and normal.
Atheism is irrational, illogical and absurd.

I have evidence for these claims.

>Digital Physics Argument for God's Existence
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Xsp4FRgas

>The Leibnizian Cosmological Argument
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2ULF5WixMM

>Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C5pq7W5yRM

>The Introspective Argument
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l1lQMCOguw

>The Teleological Argument
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Yt7hvgFuNg

>What Atheists Confuse
Part 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbLJtxn_OCo
Part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj0lekx-NiQ

>Is Atheism a Delusion?
Part 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ii-bsrHB0o
Part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnBTJDje5xk

>Atheists Don't Exist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDX6F_O5XB0

http://www.crisismagazine.com/2015/atheists-dont-exist
http://www.letusreason.org/apolo7.htm

I want you to show me how atheism makes more sense than theism.

>>2553965
Baal wasn't an Egyptian deity though.

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>>2553969
nice spam, reminder for anons to report and hide

>>2553381
Can I get summaries on these? Or links?

>>2553958

Let's start with the age of the earth, the amount of time God took to create it, the origin of humanity.

>>2553948

I don't believe in the Abrahamic god, because why should I instead of Vishnu, Zeus or anyone else? And God's existence is presupposed by the bible, if God doesn't exist much of what the bible claims cannot be true. So if I disbelieve the Abraham god I won't believe any of the shit the bible attributes to him is actually his doing. Whether some of the things that are attributed to him is true can be judged on a case by case basis in light of supporting evidence.

As I said, the bible isn't the only ancient source I'm skeptical of, I don't take most ancient authors at their word. I don't believe Suetonius when he said Caligula was haunted by ghosts either.

>>2553969
This shit again, lol

>>2553979

Yeah, and?

>>2553969
Jesus christ, no one can engage in a conversation with you if you post a million links to youtube videos. type out your own argument, hell even copypasting someone else's is better than this shit

>>2553391
>Would the good guy teach the bible in a foreign language?
Hebrew is a foreign language you know. Also Hebrew was to 1st century Aramaic speaking Jews what a Latin was to 16th century French Catholics

>>2553984
I believe the earth is 6000 years old.

All Christians knew this, for centuries.
Jesus knew this. He is God. He knows.

Before you bring up carbon dating:
https://www.trueorigin.org/dating.php

>>2553990
The OT is largely written in Hebrew.
Hebrew is an ancient language.

According to some, Hebrew was even the universal language that everyone spoke during the Tower of Babel, although this is just speculation.

>>2553992
>Before you bring up carbon dating let me post this artle on a propaganda sight which is widely dismissed by people who know what they are talking about.

How do you explain the fact we can see stars that are millions of light years away?

>>2553451
That doesn't answer his question though. Babylon was long dead by Rome's day.

>>2553485
>Lateran Treaty
>Protestant churches long post-date the Bible's completion, more so than the Vatican

No one seems to have answered these.

>>2553992
>I believe the earth is 6000 years old.

And I believe it isn't. We're going places, aren't we?

>All Christians knew this, for centuries.

All Christians BELIEVED this, for centuries. People believed all sorts of shit. Someone believing shit for a long time doesn't validate the belief.

>Jesus knew this. He is God. He knows.

This is a circular argument and the same shit that always happens when discussing anything with Christians. "The bible is true because the bible says so."

>trueorigin.org

Even if carbon dating is often inaccurate, this is not evidence that the earth is 6000 years old, it's evidence that carbon dating is often inaccurate. You need to do better than "I believe" and "This 2000 year old book says so" to validate that sort of assertion, otherwise I can find plenty of books 2000 years old or older that have vastly different theories on the age of the earth and also attribute it to something supernatural.

>>2553990
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROM5EpCQUlg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJX43l9-Qx0

hebrew and aramaic are ancient and beautiful languages.

greek is meh. latin is the language of the devil

>>2553999
http://creation.com/how-can-distant-starlight-reach-us-in-just-6000-years

Not a problem for us.

>>2553522
>Roman Catholicism is a crypto-pagan religion. On the outside it claims to be Christian, but when you actually look at their rituals, creeds, beliefs and dogmas, it bears a resemblance with the ancient Babylonian religion.
What are some secular historian accounts corraborating this?

>>2553565
>Rome murdered people in the tens of millions over the past thousand years.
>citation needed

That's more kills exclusive to Europe than historically possible for the entire world Pop.

1800 wasn't even near 1 billion in population

>protestants

>>2553986
You associated Baal with Egypt. Thats like associating Vishnu with the Japanese Kami

>>2554023
>not an argument

>>2554024
Baal, Semiramis and Tammuz
Osiris, Isis and Horus

Same shit, different names.

>>2554024

I was purposely making an unfeasible assertion to illustrate that anybody can link a true statement with a false one, and one being true doesn't make the other true.

I could have sat Vishnu shit out the first Egyptian and it'd be the same point.

>>2553840

don't lump the rest of us in with these heretics

>>2554025

so?

lol revelations

>>2553996
That's not what I said, I'm saying that in 33 AD, Hebrew was the temple language long after it's status as the vernacular language of Israel was abandoned for Aramaic and this is similar to how Latin was temple language for the Western Chuch long after its status as the European vernacular was dropped. Similarly, Greek is the official temple language of Orthodox Christianity, even in Russia.

>>2554012
Any science that starts out with the assumption that scripture is 100% accurate is not science.

Scientists dont jump through hoops to justify their theories, they put out ideas and see if there is evidence to back them up, that is why most of those ideas dont last more than a decade or two.

The if we are talking about the speed of light being different during the big bang,that is very different topic than the speed of light when the stars formed. Once matter formed and the universe reached a temperature similar to today, it stands to reason that matter and energy would behave in a similar manner today.

>>2554009
>latin is the language of the devil
It's the source of a lot of modern English words and phrases though. And many modern Romance languages are based on Latin.

>Mystery Babylon
Sick. If I convert to Catholicism will I become a Mysterious Babylonian or some shit?

>>2554030
None of those sync up with their respective families of myth.

>>2554044
It doesn't matter what the scientist's personal beliefs are.

Science is a method. You observe, test and repeat. The theory of evolution is largely speculation and fantasies.

Creationists actually use the scientific method as it's supposed to be. Yes, they believe in the Bible but do not use the Bible to prove their claims.

They use science to support the Biblical worldview. There are also scientists who support the Evolutionary worldview. Look at the actual arguments and debates.

>>2554061
It's a nonsense term, out of desperation to link it to some sort of daemonic miasma, Protestants make up an alternative history that renders Catholicism 1:1 to whatever the ancient Babylonians did despite actual archaeologists and historians who know about Babylon and have deciphered as much as they possibly can from Babylonian ruins about Babylonian life and Babylonian religion saying otherwise.

In reality, Revelation referring to Rome as being Babylon is like slaves on a Georgian cotton plantation referring to their slave master as being Pharoah. It's just poetic symbolism.

>>2554043
Ah sorry.

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>>2554086
>i-it's just a coincidence!

literally the only argument catholic apologists have

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>>2554085

>Creationists actually use the scientific method as it's supposed to be. Yes, they believe in the Bible but do not use the Bible to prove their claims.

>>2554099
I knew you would post this.

You are so predictable.

>>2554085
Why are bible believing scientists the only ones coming to theses conclusions?

There are scientists of many faiths and beliefs yet the only ones coming to these conclusions are conservative Christians

>>2554085
>Yes, they believe in the Bible but do not use the Bible to prove their claims.
How can any adult with even a shred of dignity live with himself after being this huge of a hypocrite.
In this very fucking thread you are condemning all of mankind for not accepting your precious Bible as Divine truth for "prophecies" and magic and every kind of nonsense.
Christians are complete scum.

>>2554094
But there literally is no coincidence. It's like saying the King of Thailand was instrumental in the United States revolution. Sure you can say it but that doesn't mean there's any hard evidence backing it up beyond your insistence that there is evidence despite not being able to pull forth any actual evidence.

I have never seen a single non-protestant argument for this Mystery Babylon thing that says the Catholic religion is 1:1 the ancient Babylonian religion or that modern Protestantism doesn't still hold onto a lot of Catholic worship structures.

Please put forth some reputable accounts from secular historians on the similarities between Catholicism and ancient Babylon and that Protestantism is 100% distinct and with attachments to these Babylonian "connections"

>>2554109
There are plenty of scientists who looked where the evidence leads, and came to the creationist conclusion. So it's the other way around.

Not only are there YECs and OECs, the "Intelligent design" movement is gaining traction in scientific academia as well. Deists, scientists who believe in a creator God but do not have a religion.

>>2554108

Can you provide me some scientific arguments for creationism that don't premise their argument on the bible?

And no, debunking a theory that contradicts creationism is not the same thing as proving creationism.

>>2554094

>can't address his argument, so I'll resort to memes and irrelevant greentext

prods utterly btfo

>>2554117
You are confusing me with someone else.

>>2554120
see the link here
>>2553202

Tons of evidence and "coincidences".

>>2554126
Consiracy theorists love stringing together "coincidences" even when they are not meaningful in anyway. You can make an argument for just about anything this way, from ancient aliens to 9/11 truthers

>>2554123
Plenty. What do you want to know?

Age? Geology? Flood? Fossils? Genetics? DNA? Biology?

You can look anything up on creationist websites, there are thousands of articles.

>>2554126
>Tons of evidence and "coincidences".

Stringing together vague statements into coincidences isn't that hard, if I felt like blowing my night I could probably manage to attribute that entire list to Xi Jinping or Donald Trump.

>follow a religion supposedly dating back to ancient babylon
>follow a religion dating back to some angry german guy
i think i'll take my chances with the former 2bh

>>2554134
How many of those articles were published in peer reviewed journals or books?

>>2554126
But those aren't secular historians though. I'm asking for secular historians, not biased Protestant ones. Obviously Protestants will say that but I want actual historians without a religious bias who back that up with hard facts on history.

Because if it's true, then secular historical records will corroborate the narrative. I see and have read all those recycled Protestant sources, now I want a secular one to compare and contrast with.

>>2554142
http://creation.com/creationism-science-and-peer-review

>>2554134

Start from the top. I hope you're not >>2553992 because that was a pretty shit answer last time.

>Detailed Documentary Exposing Catholic Church (8 hours)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bVEXZ38Vs8

>The Real History of the evil Roman Catholic Church
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LClaSilFlA8

>The Jesuit Agenda Exposed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTo2wbfvT9E

>The Real Bible Version Issue
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHcf3E8qOqA

>>2554147

>he links an article trying to discredit peer review

Could it be that a majority of the statements made by these creationist scientists couldn't find other experts in their field to agree with them?

>>2554152
How about some secular sources please. If these conspiracies are so blatantly obvious than irreligious scholars would note them and there would be secular records of it.

>>2554153
It is not discrediting peer review.

Read.

>>2554004
>>2554014
>>2554019
It's interesting how there are no answers for these

>>2554152
what's with protestants and their nonstop youtube link spam?

Wait is this a joke or do they think this is convincing to normal people?

>>2554169
Refute the arguments in the videos.

The 8 hour documentary has sources and citations.

Feel free to prove them wrong.

>>2554169
It's presumably the same mentality as fedoras spamming YouTube links to try to convince people. They expect a large mass of links to super long videos to completely convince and be enticing enough to do so as well.

What you do is site short and very very concise videos to prove a point and only do one or two short videos to do so. The more videos and the longer they are, the less likely you'll want to watch them and retain them.

Coincidentally most fedoras are former Protestants and much of the bickering between Christians and atheists are fedoras versus fundy Protestants

>>2554176
>Expecting me to watch an eight hour documentary that only cites other religious sources but no secular ones

Here's an idea, you've apparently watched it how much you give me all the secular sources and citations that that documentary has instead of expecting me to watch 8 hours of something

>>2554182
>religious sources
BZZT. Wrong.

Most sources are from secular history books or theological books.

The only times when Bible passages are mentioned is to refute Catholic claims, such as Peter being the first pope (lol).

>>2554187
>Most sources are from secular history books
Like?

>or theological books.
>what are religious sources

>>2554182
>want to know why catholics are wrong
>expects a non-religious reply

are you retarded?

>>2554216
Not wrong, Babylonian.

I don't give a fuck about some religion being true, I'm only interested in the history of Babylon as an ancient culture and how it's religion somehow was able to exclusively become Western Christianity up until 1517. You don't need to argue for religious truth to argue a historical concept like that.

>>2554004
>>2554014
>>2554019
Still waiting on a secular historian's answer to these

>>2554237

>protestants actually believe this

can't make this up

>>2554245
So no answer huh?

>>2553410
>Protestants start a war that kills millions of French people
>Protestants start another war that kills a quarter of the HRE
Both as bad as each other desu

Eastern Orthodox all the way

>>2553202
>Protestants break away sick of the Catholic church
>Counter reformation fixes most of their grievances, still don't rejoin communion with Rome
>Instead keep on splitting over and over again until there are hundreds of sects all basically believing the same shit
>Even churches like the Anglicans who only left so the king could get a divorce
Sure, Pope Sixtus IV is the one to blame for it all

>>2554237
Roman Catholicism is not Babylonian paganism simply because the latter was a goner by the time Alexander the Great wrecked the Persian Empire; it's not manicheism either because that could not spread in the Roman Empire; and Eastern Orthodoxy split over whether keep autocephaly or not, very close to what Lutheranism and Calvinists advocated for.

>>2553726
What's wrong with symbolism of pagan origin? As soon as it acquires a similar, but Christian meaning, what does its origin matter?

>>2553811
Don't Protestants use the cross symbol too? It's also a reminder of Christ's death, after all.

>>2553410

>implying burning heretics is a sin

>>2556421
They don't use the crucifix though, only a cross

Protestants and Catholics have been calling each other the Anti-Christ and slap fighting like two teenage girls for 500 years.

>>2556457
It's still a reminder of Christ's death though, crucifix simply makes the symbolism more visible.

>>2554177
> fedoras spamming YouTube links to try to convince people
Such as?
The only people spamming video links here are the YEC and flat earth fundies.

>>2553847
No.

1 Corinthians 15
Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.

And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.

Further, Jesus did not atone for the sins of mankind; the sacrifice of animals did that. Jesus paid the price in full and eradicated our sins via propitiation. Atonement is just a covering up; Jesus' sacrifice removed them.

>>2553851
Yes.

>>2553883
People with the Holy Spirit in them have a much easier time discerning other people with the Holy Spirit in them; there is a love between us that is otherwise unaccounted for.

When a born again Christian posts here, I love him/her instantly.

>>2553911
That's what Paul said below; if Jesus did not rise from the dead, Christians are the most pitiable people on earth.

>>2553982
they are basically copies of the New Testament en toto.

>>2553990
the Jews taught the Law in Hebrew to the Hebrews so that they could understand it.

The Catholics led mass in Latin in Mexico so they could not.

Huge difference.

>>2556747
I sincerely doubt most 1st century Jews were fluent in Hebrew

>>2556700
I've seen it done on /pol/ and plebbit.

>>2553999
By pointing out your false assumptions. Your false assumptions are as follows:

1. A star a million light years away emitted a photon.
2. That photon traveled at "light speed" for a million years before it hit your eye.
3. Therefore the universe must be at least a million years old.

What you are actually seeing is the activity on Day Four when God stretched out the universe from what it was to where it is now. Hence everything is accelerating away from us uniformly. Hence light itself was stretched, leaving CBR.

All that is left is to consider that God stretching out the universe in one day meant that he acted at far above light "speed", and indeed far above cosmic ray "speed".

Because as it turns out, there are no photons. Nothing "emits" light. Light is a coaxial longitudinal circuit with a maximum rate of induction, not a "speed" at all. Hence it goes at "light speed", then "through" a block of glass at "reduced light speed", then resumes "light speed".

In the beginning, God said "Light, be!" and light was.

--Genesis

Everything is the light.

--Nikola Tesla

>>2554004
Rome became the new Babylon, if that helps you think things through better. The sun god, Nimrod, of Babylon became the sun god, Apollo, of Rome, etc.

>>2556723
>Further, Jesus did not atone for the sins of mankind; the sacrifice of animals did that. Jesus paid the price in full and eradicated our sins via propitiation. Atonement is just a covering up; Jesus' sacrifice removed them
Um. That's what Atonement IS though. http://www.dictionary.com/browse/atonement

>>2554004
>>Lateran Treaty
Has no biblical significance.

>>Protestant churches long post-date the Bible's completion, more so than the Vatican
Bible was completed with the book of Revelation @ 95 AD.

>>2554012
Great link. I think I hit on this below:

This “horizon problem” is a big headache for cosmologists, so big that they have come up with some pretty wild solutions. “Inflation”, for example. You can solve the horizon problem by having the universe expand ultra-fast for a time, just after the big bang, blowing up by a factor of 1050 in 10–33 seconds. But is that just wishful thinking?

>>2556774

>>2556731
What about someone who acts like you but has convinced themselves that sex with strangers is sacramental and when you call them out, they get as defensive as you would if someone questioned your piety?

There are a LOT of people who are like that.

>>2556756
You realize Aramaic, the common spoken language, is virtually identical to Hebrew, yes?

>>2556783
What does Apollo have to do with Nimrod and how is that relation one of evolution?

>>2556787
Atonement: covering up. Think car cover over a car. The car is still there, and the shape is still there, but the car itself is hidden from view. So the sins of Israel would be hidden from God's view under the blood of the sacrifices.

Propitiation: the sins are gone.

>>2556745
So they don't corroborate this "ancient Babylon Catholics" narrative?

>>2556747
But 1st Century Jews spoke Aramaic. Also Catholic Religious Education involves teaching what the Latin at mass means since in antiquity, Latin classes were as common as a French class in High School today so most people knew enough Latin to get by.

>>2556801
I'm not a "sacramental" person. So when people say "this is a sacrament", my instinct is to run away.

Neither am i pious.

the bible basically just says to judge people by their fruit; if they are leaving STDs and abortions and broken hearts behind them based on their "religious views", those are not the fruits of the Spirit.

>>2556811

Nimrod = Babylonian Sun God.

Apollo = Roman Sun God. Based on Nimrod.

>>2556820
Of course they do. It's where we get our bibles today.

See >>2556809

>>2556825
From what I know Nimrod was just a king, and Apollo was originally from the Greeks. Any source on this?

>>2556774
If any of that were true we could tell that by the red shift in the stars light unless you also believe God accounted for the effects of stretching the universe and adjusted the light after he was done

>>2556829
The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop.

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>>2556825
Thanks &humanities

>>2556832
It's why you see a red shift.

>>2556854
Nobody thinks Santa was born in Saturnalia.

Pagans have been worshiping the sun for all of human history.

These are not new concepts.

>>2556832
Over the last few decades, new evidence has surfaced that restores man to a central place in God’s universe. Astronomers have confirmed that numerical values of galaxy redshifts are ‘quantized’, tending to fall into distinct groups. According to Hubble’s law, redshifts are proportional to the distances of the galaxies from us. Then it would be the distances themselves that fall into groups. That would mean the galaxies tend to be grouped into (conceptual) spherical shells concentric around our home galaxy, the Milky Way. The shells turn out to be on the order of a million light years apart. The groups of redshifts would be distinct from each other only if our viewing location is less than a million light years from the centre. The odds for the Earth having such a unique position in the cosmos by accident are less than one in a trillion. Since big bang theorists presuppose the cosmos has naturalistic origins and cannot have a unique centre, they have sought other explanations, without notable success so far. Thus, redshift quantization is evidence (1) against the big bang theory, and (2) for a galactocentric cosmology, such as one by Robert Gentry or the one in my book, Starlight and Time.

http://creation.com/our-galaxy-is-the-centre-of-the-universe-quantized-redshifts-show

This creation dot com website is fascinating.

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>>2556870
Your brother seems convinced of this grand conspiricy.

>>2556809
Then why is it a different language? Aramaic was to Hebrew what Spanish is to Latin to >>2556747's assertion holds up just as well as saying the Sanhedrin banned public use of Hebrew to lead the Jews away from Jesus or whatever. It doesn't make sense.

>>2556845
>Hislop builds on the Panbabylonian school of Hyperdiffusionism, which was common in the 19th century, to argue that Classical and Ancient Near Eastern civilization took all its inspiration from Babylon, and from that he derived the argument Mystery Religions of Late Antiquity were actually offshoots of one ancient religion founded at the Tower of Babel.
Well, seems a load of bullshit to me.
Tell me yourself how Nimrod was the sun-god. The only God that approximates Apollo is Nergal in that he is the god of sun and of destruction, but there are no other things in common with Apollo, like prophecy and the symbol of the bow and the arrow. And why Apollo? Why not Helios? There's not just one god of the sun in those mythologies.

>>2556789
It doesn't need to have it, the argument was about Rome and the Vatican as temporal powers.
>First off, the Bishop of Rome lives in the Vatican and has control over both the Vatican and Rome. i.e. the pope. So there is no separation between Rome and the Vatican.
The Lateran Treaty solved the long-standing issue with the Papacy not recognizing Italy's legitimacy as a nation.

And most modern Christian sects only date to 1517 at most, they're about as far removed from 95 AD as you claim the Catholics are.

>>2556887
There's no need to turn Santa into the sun god. People already worship Ba'al today, a sun god. We call them muslims.

And people already worship the sun. We call them Catholics. They have sunbursts all over their evil little city, and ingrained in their artwork.

And obviously natural animists already worship the sun itself, so again, no need to turn Santa into a sun god. Especially when Santa has no connection to the sun.

Come back at me when I post "everything every Christian thinks, says and does is the God's honest truth", and we'll talk.

>>2556889
They didn't ban the usage of Hebrew; they felt that the holy scriptures should only be talked about and taught in Hebrew. Aramaic is to Hebrew as Portuguese is to Brazilian.

>>2556854
>Amaterasu and Huitzilopochtli are based on Nimrod

GENIUS!

>>2556910
Who asked for your opinion? You already let us know you don't have any information on this topic. You don't even seem to grasp the main point: that pagan gods are fungible. That they are the same beings with different names in different countries. Ra is Apollo is Nimrod.

>>2556912
Temporal powers in 95 AD. Present tense. Rules over the kings of the earth.

>>2556930
All sun gods are based on Nimrod. The entirety of the human race after the Flood was gathered under Nimrod at Babel, and then dispersed.

>>2556920
Muslims worship Allah, not "Ba'al" I don't know where you could have made this blatant mistake from. Do you just read "Ba'al" from the Bible and pretend that it's a real thing?
Catholics worship the exact same God you do.
I feel like you have no clue what you are talking about.

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>>2556920
>And people already worship the sun. We call them Catholics. They have sunbursts all over their evil little city, and ingrained in their artwork.

Proofs?

Catholic here, I don't recall having ever worshipped Sun.

>>2556944
Ba'al is HaBaal is Hubal is the god of Mohammad's father, the main god of the Qureshi and the kaaba.

The one whose head was made out of that meteorite they still have on display there.

>>2556945
Here is Pope John Paul II holding what is called a Monstrance or Ostensorium. It is used to display a round wafer of bread, called the host, which is used in what is called the Mass, Lord's Supper, Communion or Eucharistic meal. The Catholic believes this wafer of bread turns into the actual body of Christ when consecrated during the Mass.

>>2556945
>>2556957
The Roman Catholic Church even admits the Monstrance to be a sunburst:

"During the baroque period, it took on a rayed form of a sun-monstrance with a circular window surrounded by a silver or gold frame with rays."

Source: The Dictionary of the Liturgy by Rev. Jovian P. Lang, OFM., published and copyrighted © 1989 by Catholic Book Publishing Co., New York, ISBN 0-89942-273-X, page 436.

>>2556932
>You don't even seem to grasp the main point: that pagan gods are fungible.
Wrong, YOU didn't get my point. I showed how the different deities are not fungible. Only by ignoring particularities and incurring in simplifications can we agree that Helios and Apollo and Ra are actually different names of the same god.

>>2556945
>>2556957
>>2556962
In fact, according to the 1913 edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia-

The most appropriate form (for the monstrance) is that of the sun emitting its rays to all sides (Instructio Clement., 5). [See Altar Vessels: Ostensorium]

>>2556954
>Access to the idol was controlled by the Quraysh tribe. The god's devotees fought against followers of the Islamic prophet Muhammad during the Battle of Badr in 624 AD. After Muhammad entered Mecca in 630 CE, he removed the statue of Hubal from the Kaaba along with the idols of all the other pagan gods.

Exactly as I suspected, you in fact don't have any clue what you are talking about.

>>2556968
There is nothing to distinguish Nimrod from Ra from Apollo. Merely different languages in different countries.

Do you not know pagans deify real people?

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>>2556975
By that logic your own Jesus is just Dionysus.
Same guy, different language and culture.

>>2556845
Wasn't that book highly debunked by secular historians? Kinda like Gerald Massey and his "Jesus is Horus" malarkey?

>>2556973
Or muslims lie about their religion....

Mohammad removed 359 of the 360 pagan gods of the kaaba; despite what your facebook friends say.

As it turns out, muslims do not want people to know they worship Ba'al.

They say they worship God.

And since you use taqiyya, you're very well acquainted with the islamic prescription to lie to promote itself. Things like "religion of peace" and "Mohammad removed Hubal" (Not mentioning the other 359 gods.)

>>2556983
Jesus is God.

You can think he's Dionysus if you'd like. But applying pagan rules to God is rather absurd. Pagan deities stand opposed to God.

>>2556935
But St. Peter's Basilica wasn't even built until the 4th Century

>>2556986
Many catholics scream that it was, yes.

It's very well sourced. And very anti-Catholic.

You can also read "A Woman Rides The Beast" by Dave Hunt for a little more contemporary take on the issue.

>>2557006
I'm sorry, are you trying to say that Rome did not rule over the kings of the earth in 95 AD?

On a purported history board?

>>2556957
>The Catholic believes this wafer of bread turns into the actual body of Christ when consecrated during the Mass.

Exactly, we worship Eucharist BECAUSE we believe it to be Christ's body. We worship Christ.

>>2556962
>>2556971

Just because pagans worshipped the Sun, does it mean that any symbolism using the Sun is pagan? The Bible too compares God to Sun or light (e.g. in Habakkuk 3:4), as a metaphor of God's glory.

>>2557004
"Pagan" is just a Christian label for everything else they don't like, just because you use the same word doesn't then make them all the same concept.

It's like if I use the word "stranger" to apply to everyone who is not me, does that make everyone on earth the same person?

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why do you protestants hate catholics so much? why not hate some other religion that isn't christian?

>>2556975
There are differences:
(1) Ra is the absolute ruler of the world. Helios isn't, Apollo isn't, only Jupiter, the god of thunder is the ruler, and anytime he could be dethroned.
(2) The Greeks had both Helios and Apollo as solar deities, one was a Titan, another an Olympian. Apollo was the god of prophecy, music, arts, healing and archery; Helios was just... the sun. We can't say there were two deities just because fo lingusitic differences. Even the Romans had both Sol and Phoebus.
What are some ANCIENT sources about the legend of Nimrod being deified as the sun? I can only find Protestant websites citing Protestant books.

>>2557017
Yes, you're pagans. You believe if you eat God, you will be like God.

Yes, your pope carrying around a wafer that is supposedly Jesus in a sunburst is again pagan.

Welcome to finding out you're a pagan!

>>2557024
If you called everyone in your family "family" and everyone not in your family "stranger", would that not be correct?

Pagans are not in the family of God. They have their own things going on.

>>2557031
Likely the 68,000,000 murders committed by the Vatican in the past thousand years has something to do with it.

>>2557034
Sun God Nimrod
Sun God Ra
Sun God Apollo

Based on the same guy. Nimrod. You think that later developments obviate that clear truth. They do not. Myths are easily changed; they're just myths.

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Reminder that all your arguing are binding you to the samsara and keeping you away from nirvana

>>2557049
well he says to eat his body and drink his blood, and to imitate him.

>>2557007
I don't care about what Catholics think, I only care about SECULAR HISTORIANS say. And they debunked Hilsop thoroughly

>>2557049
Even if you don't believe in transubstantiation, in the context of a religion that has this belief, how is worshipping the Eucharist pagan?

>>2557061
sounds like you just made that up.

>>2557016
Rome did, but not Catholics

>>2557058
So again all strangers are the same person?
I suspect that you have no concept of historicity of world religions other than cult pamphlets and crank blogs.

>>2557069
Ok, arguing about it will lead to nothing if you still believe they are based on the same guy. I will ask again, what are good primary and ancient sources about Nimrod being deified as the sun? How is it proved that every cult of the Mother-Father-Child originated from him?

>>2557074
And yet nobody ever did.

>>2557086
Didn't make a scratch.

>>2557087
Eat God Be God predates Christianity.

Because it is pagan.

Like many of the beliefs and rites of Romanism, transubstantiation was first practiced by pagan religions. The noted historian Durant said that belief in transubstantiation as practiced by the priests of the Roman Catholic system is "one of the oldest ceremonies of primitive religion." The Story Of Civilization, p. 741. The syncretism and mysticism of the Middle East were great factors in influencing the West, particularly Italy. Roman Society From Nero To Marcus Aurelius, Dill. In Egypt priests would consecrate mest cakes which were supposed to be come the flesh of Osiris. Encyclopedia Of Religions, Vol. 2, p. 76. The idea of transubstantiation was also characteristic of the religion of Mithra whose sacraments of cakes and Haoma drink closely parallel the Catholic Eucharistic rite. Ibid.

The idea of eating the flesh of deity was most popular among the people of Mexico and Central America long before they ever heard of Christ; and when Spanish missionaries first landed in those countries "their surprise was heightened, when they witnessed a religious rite which reminded them of communion...an image made of flour...and after consecration by priests, was distributed among the people who ate it...declaring it was the flesh of deity..." Prescott's Mexico, Vol. 3.

>>2557088
In one word, the church of Rome has spent immense treasures and shed, in murder, the blood of sixty eight millions and five hundred thousand of the human race, to establish before the astonished and disgusted world, her fixed determination to annihilate every claim set up by the human family to liberty, and the right of unbounded freedom of conscience.

-- Popery an enemy to civil liberty, 1836, pp. 104-105.

>>2557101
The Whore of Babylon is a City set upon 7 hills ruling over the kings of the earth.

Rome.

Peter called Rome "Babylon":

1 Peter 5:13 She who is in Babylon, elect together with you, greets you; and so does Mark my son.

If you want to make the argument that Rome then is not Rome now, please do try. It's an absurd argument that leaves no other candidate as a viable Whore of Babylon.

>>2557115
All of the people of the family of God have one destination.

All of the people not in the family of God have a different destination.

No matter how unique they each are.

>>2557127
Why the fuck would I care that pagans had their own beliefs in transubstatiation? They thought it was their own gods, therefore paganism. We believe it to be God, therefore not paganism.

Pagans had animal sacrifices, does it make Old Testament animal sacrifices pagan too? No, because pagan sacrifices were done in honour of pagan gods, Israelite sacrifices were done to honour God.

>>2557131
still sounds like made up political propaganda
people said a lot of dumb shit in the 1800s

>>2556876
Actually it's conspiracy theory bullshit

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>>2557167
>he doesn't understand redshift quantization

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>>2557150
>All world religions are exactly the same since they are not Protestant Christianity
Such a scholarly and historically educated standpoint.

>>2557116
By doing research, obviously. By reading the research of others, like Hislop and Hunt. By finally realizing that everything in the bible is true.

For instance, in Babylon, the Sun God King died. His son, Tammuz, was supposedly killed in a hunt. His wife Semiramis, the "Queen of Heaven" mentioned in the bible, went into mourning and fasted for 40 days. At the end of her fast of 40 days her son was miraculously returned to her.

Catholics:
Ash Wednesday: Go into mourning.
Lent: Fast for 40 days.
End of 40 days: Ishtar, aka Easter.

How do Catholics explain following this pagan festival and not the bible?

By pretending it has something to do with the fasting of Jesus in the wilderness.

But there is no mourning. Nobody died. Jesus had just been baptized and declared the Messiah by God Himself. The Holy Spirit had him go into the wilderness for 40 days, at the end of which he was tempted by the devil.

That was at least 3 years prior to the resurrection.

So you tell me which the modern Catholic practices. The mourning, fast and Easter of Semiramis, or the temptation of Christ?

>>2557160
So did they. You pagans all think alike.

>>2557161
Yeah, why bother with history when we can just believe nothing we don't see.

On /his/.

>>2557167
Sue your science teacher.

>>2557173
For Jesus.

Against Jesus.

Pick a side. There are a million ways to be Against Jesus, and only one way to be For Jesus.

>>2557141
But Rome was pagan and Peter thought Christianity couldn't make it to be the Empire's official & only religion. Is that hard to understand?

>>2557196
But Hilsop and Hunt have been discredited by secular historians.

>>2557207
The fact is much historical literature of the 19th century is considered wrong today. Not just about Catholicism but pretty much every topic

>>2557223
>&humanitiesposting

>>2557224
Pagan Rome then.
Pagan Rome now.

Emperor "Pontifex Maximus" then.
Pope "Pontifex Maximus" now.

Senate then.
College of Cardinals now.

Praetorian Guards then.
Jesuit assassins now.

It's the same. Rome never became "Christian"; it became pagan Catholic.

>>2557226
No, no they have not. They write in a field where "secular historians" have no expertise.

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>>2557196
>Ash Wednesday: Go into mourning.

As do plenty of biblical figures. Why would mourning over sins be evil?

>Lent: Fast for 40 days.

Just like Jesus.

>End of 40 days: Ishtar, aka Easter

Congratulations, you failed Linguistics 101. And taking the name aside, I still fail to realise what would it even mean, if it was true - on Easter we celebrate God's resurrection. Nobody cares about Ishtar or any other pagan deity - how could this happen on a pagan holiday?

>>2557229
>Everything written in the 19th century is wrong.

wew lad

Alexander Campbell, well known religions leader of the nineteenth century, stated in debate with John B. Purcell, Bishop of Cincinnati, in 1837 that the records of historians and martyrologists show that it may be reasonable to estimate that from fifty to sixty-eight millions of human beings died, suffered torture, lost their possessions, or were otherwise devoured by the Roman Catholic Church during the awful years of the Inquisition. Bishop Purcell made little effort to refute these figures. (Citing A Debate on the Roman Catholic Religion, Christian Publishing Co., 1837, p. 327.)
Walter M. Montano, a former Catholic priest, asserts in his book, Behind the Purple Curtain that it has been estimated that fifty million people died for their faith during the twelve hundred years of the Dark Ages. (Citing Walter M. Montano, Behind the Purple Curtain, Cowman Publications, 1950, page 91.)

-- The Shadow of Rome, by John B. Wilder; Zondervan Publishing Co., 1960, page 87.

>>2557234
Dang it. Next time I'm gonna use the Swiss Guard now. The Jesuits really are just assassins, and it's hard to find an order of assassins in ancient Rome. So

*Swiss Guards now.

>>2557243

Babylon: Mourning, Fasting, Easter.

Bible: Baptized, Fasting, Begin Ministry. Easter is 3 1/2 years away.

You do the Babylon one, not the bible one. But then you people despise the bible, so that's not a surprise.

I don't deny Catholicism adopted some pagan symbols and practices — this only makes Catholicism superior to Protestantism in my mind. I'm not a Christian btw, that's why I don't care about it so much. But Catholic paganism was derived from Hellenistic/Alexandrinian paganism, which was a syncreticism of various religious and philosophical beliefs and practices, which that tried to trace itself back to Egypt or Babylon/Chaldea as a way of giving itself airs of "ancient tradition".
What I'm against is the oversimplification Protestants employ when dealing with "paganism". There's no way all non-Abrahamic religions originated from the same and are just the same just with "slight" modifications. There's, for instance, a great difference between the religious system of worship of ancestors and what was showed in the mysteries, the latter even contradicted the former and was responsible for the weakening of such beliefs. The worship of the ancestors, by its turn, contradicted the even more ancient idea that after death we only lived briefly as shadows and then went extinct for ever. But for you Protestants both contradictory religious systems are the same religion with superfluous differences.

>>2553216
it was, now they are a bunch of cucks

>>2557268
"Our pagan roots make us more important than Christianity."

At least you're honest.

>>2557268
Was meant to >>2557196

>>2557268
You have some weird idea that the entire world was populated and then they each came up with their own mythos.

This world started with 2 people in one place. 1500 years later it was re-started with 8 people in one place. Not many years after that every single human being was in Babylon, defying God.

Then God confused their languages, and they dispersed with their own kind, with the people they could talk to.

And that's how you get various names for the very same root sun god Nimrod. Confusion of languages and dissemination of peoples around the globe, taking their stories with them.

>>2557283
Will you ever address a significant point I make? Damn, I've shown how "paganism" is a very general umbrella term, and then you just repeat the same bullshit addressing something that has almost nothing to do with what I said. Tell me: how can you tell me every "paganism" is the same religion, but with insignificant differences, considering what I've said?

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>>2557283
>You have some weird idea that the entire world was populated and then they each came up with their own mythos.
I have had quite enough of proddyposting for one lifetime.
This bullshit has no place on a History board, get the fuck back to /x/ where you people belong.

>>2557262
Although your knowledge about Babylonian religion is beyond wrong, there are Christian or Jewish (pre-Christian) practices analogous to the ones found in pagan cultures (like the aforomentioned animal sacrifices) so I'll move to the central disagreement instead.

Here's a logical process you constantly do I don't understand: a thing has Christian meaning, but since it was originally pagan, its newly acquired significance means nothing.

Care to explain it?

>>2557271
Yes, it is better to be the descendants of rome than some snowniggers larping as jews.
not the same poster btw.

>>2557298
they just have to constantly equate catholics with pagans in their minds because if they don't it becomes painfully obvious their theology is all fucked up.

>>2557298
Sure.

Matthew 7:13
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.

All of your supposed distinctions between non-saved groups are meaningless.

>>2557299
Another catholic who despises the bible in favor of gaining favor with the world.

James 4:4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

>>2557304
Here's a thing you cannot understand.

Things that were originally pagan are still pagan.

>>2557374
I'm talking about every "paganism" being the same "Nimrod-religion", not about everybody who is a pagan going to hell. You're still not answering my question. Will you admit your Nimrod-religion is just an oversimplification and not the source of every pagan religion?

>>2557406

This is so hard for you to understand, yet it's so simple.

After the Flood, there were only 8 people on earth. Noah and his wife, their three sons and the sons' wives.

2 generations later, all human beings gathered under Nimrod of Babylon.

>>2557383
>Things that were originally pagan are still pagan.

Proof? Sounds like bullshit to me.

>>2557262
>But then you people despise the bible, so that's not a surprise.

Ironic that you say that, considering that we decided which books belong in its canon.

>>2557160
Israelites sacrificed animals to atone for their sins.

Pagans sacrificed children to the fire.

>>2557440
We have an analogous situation here.

Catholics eat Eucharist to worship God.

Pagans ate their equivalents of it to worship pagan gods.

>>2557411
>This is so hard for you to understand, yet it's so simple.
It isn't hard to understand, I just dismiss it all as bullshit.
Anyway. I've tried, but you just go round and round, without addressing any significant thing I say. You've proved you're a dishonest person, go fuck yourself. Every time I discuss with a Christian on this board, Christianity only gets worse before my eyes.

>>2557236
But the question isn't about some symbolic Babylon, those two posit that the Catholic Church is HISTORICALLY the same this 1:1 as the ancient Mesopotamian state of Babylon. THAT is where they get discredited.

>>2557196
>Ishtar=Easter

That's only a thing in English. In pretty much every other language, the word for Ressurection Sunday is derived from Paschal.

>>2557234
So, Christianity was born during the Reformation because the Catholic "Pagan" Church didn't let people translate Bibles and confused the religious institution with the land it owned? Is that correct?

Then why the fuck was Luther pulling out arguments from St. Augustine, and why did he bother to try to do what every reformer ever until then had asked (no rich clergymen, no indulgences for sale, let layman preach) and only when threathened he changed everything?

>>2557517
Paschal is Passover.

A reminder of when the angel of death "passed over" the doors painted with lamb's blood, only killing the Egyptian firstborns.

>>2557417
Self evident much?

>>2557439
You did not.

You just say you did. And you included non-scriptures in your precious "canon".

>>2557527
Incorrect.

Christianity was born during Christ's ministry. Antioch was the first city where the term "Christian" was used.

Since Paul setting up churches throughout Asia minor, there has always been pockets and groups of believers who had nothing to do with Rome.

There were plenty of people who spoke out against the corrupt Papacy (Wycliff, Huss, etc). The Reformation was bound to happen.

>>2557551
No, it's not. Consider some object X.

Pagans use this object X to mean a pagan thing.

Christians notice this, like the concept of using X as a Christian symbol, and start using X to mean something different than pagans do.

Explain to me how X, as used by the Christians here, still indicates pagan worship.

>>2557557
Why was there a discussion about which books belong to the canon and which don't, before Catholic councils decided it, then?

>>2557476
The next significant point you make will be your first.

>>2557511
That's where the critics get discredited, because that is not the argument. Nobody is arguing that a piece of Iraq ended up in Italy.

>>2557517
Nope. That's the Passover, and has nothing to do with the Resurrection.

>>2557271
He's not Religious though

>>2557527
Christianity was born on Pentecost 32 AD.

>>2557597
Ok.

>>2557575
Because both pagans and Catholics think that the food actually becomes their gods' flesh and blood inside of them, making them like God.

>>2557584
Because papists were putting non-scriptural books into their canon.

>>2557606
The truth is the truth, even uttered by a fool.