Why is there such animosity between Northern Italians and Southern

It's a very artificial country and the northern regions have more in common with each other, the Swiss, the Austrians and the South Germans than they do the southern Italians.

The North is industrious, metropolitan, rich and well educated. The South is rural, infected by the mafia and with a shitty economy only kept afloat by tourism.

tl:dr, North is Western European, South is Southern European

Southern Italians are essentially Albanians.

Because despite appearing to be civilized, Italians are savages with tribal mentality.

>>2541203
>Why is there such animosity between Northern Italians and Southern Italians?
In the past, southerners got pretty brutally subjugated by the Savoia kings, and that created a lot of resentment from southerners to northerners.
In recent years, it has been more about the south being poor and corrupt, and a very great deal of northern tax money being wasted trying to put things to right, which caused resentment from northerners to southerners.

>>2541272
Thank God you're right, that's what makes us first world and stops us from striving away further and further from the best forma mentis right into the typical degeneracy that affects most contemporary western countries

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You tell me.

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>>2541357

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>>2541359

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>>2541346
>Italy isn't degenerate
*ahem*

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>>2541366

>>2541359
How exactly is do they rank regions as developed. A place like Devon should be much more developed then some barren tundra in Finland.

What are you trying to point? That north italians are modern cucked homosexuals?

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>>2541420
t. inbred Shitcilian terrone

north italians is infested with south italians since the 60's, the main problem is the lack of interest for the developing of southern regions by the government and the general corruption that comes after that. also lu sole lu mare

>>2541426
>implying cousin marriage is wrong
Too much outbreeding is just as bad.

>>2541420
>That north italians are modern cucked homosexuals?
That's a given.

>>2541537
>lack of interest for the developing of southern regions by the government
I wouldn't call untold billions wasted in development projects "lack of interest". The place is simply too corrupt to salvage just by democratic government intervention.
Really, it needs to either be quarantined off without brain drain until society implodes and reboots, or to be literally colonized. Sadly it's part of a legally first world country, so there's literally no profit whatsoever in colonizing the place, and certainly the quarantine idea could never be implemented in the modern day.

>>2541573
You're okay if you marry 3rd+ cousins, 1st is almost as bad as fucking your sister.

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Southern Italy has been irrelevant since the Vesuvio eruption pretty much. Their post-Roman history consists of being conquered and subjugated by a multitude of different people. Nothing of value came from there except pizza, mafia movies, shitty stereotypes and annoying accents. Central and Northern Italians like to distinguish themselves from them because we ARE different. We don't speak the same (regional) language, we don't have the same culture and we don't have the same history.

t. master race Venetian ruler of the seas

>>2541744
I'd say southern Italy's irrelevance started when Charles of Anjou rekt Manfredi Hohenstaufen at the battle of Benevento actually.

>>2541744
can't wait for you faggots to drown

>>2541953
You know, we've already mostly moved to the mainland. There's only old folks, tourists and a few uni students there nowadays. Most workers and students actually commute.

>>2541744
Southern Italy became irrelevant when international trade shifted to northern Europe.
If every single country in Europe was trying to seize Naples from each other for 500y it's for a good reason.

Northern Italians are just regular Europeans. Italian-speaking Swiss for all intents and purposes. They're not Mediterranean master race and are salty as fuck about it.

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>>2542008
>we were relevant because we got ruled by other people

Terroni logic.

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>>2541744
>master race Venetian

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>>2542011
We are more Mediterranean than you think. Even Iberians are less Mediterranean than us.

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>>2542018
>salty irrelevant Lombards

CASANOVA'D

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>>2542043
I fucking hate these autism maps, we were Phoenician/Africans, it makes no sense that we are genetically isolated

>>2542018
>terroni del nord
>still just as prosperous in spite of complete government abandonment as opposed to decades of forced industrialization
Jelly much?

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>>2542070
Get over it, Mr. early Anatolian farmer.

I guess your Nuraghes prevented you from getting cucked.

>>2541203
Are southern Italians (read: the peninsula itself + Sicily) and the northern Italians (that circular/oval chunk jutting into central Europe) basically different ethnicities? They look pretty different, have distinct cultural customs and pasts, and until the mid 20th century their language dialects were mutually unintelligible.

>>2542103
Ethnicity in the old world is complicated. For most of human history people defined themselves more by the town or village they lived in than any large region.

I'd say Italians have more in common with one anther than Slavs and Arabs but still show great distinction.

>>2542103
>basically different ethnicities
Pretty much, yeah. Kinda on the level of spaniards and portugueses. You can certainly make an argument that we're all italians ethnically NOW, but certainly not 50 years ago, nevermind 150.
>until the mid 20th century their language dialects were mutually unintelligible
They still are mutually unintelligible (hell even tuscan, so called mother language of italian is basically unintelligible to northerners), we just all know italian now. A good many dialects are actually full blown languages actually.

>>2541383
Developed = degree of cucked.

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>>2542103
The Italian peninsula was never homogenous. Etruscans weren't even Indo-European and Messapians were fucking Illyrians (i.e Albanians).

>>2541359
>Cyprus, which has been in an international deadlock since the 1970s is more developed.
Wew.

>>2542143
>The Italian peninsula was never homogenous.
No place is. Races form when ethnogensis occurs. Not from being eternally homogenous.

>>2542103
>Are southern Italians (read: the peninsula itself + Sicily) and the northern Italians (that circular/oval chunk jutting into central Europe) basically different ethnicities?
Kinda yes, but I disagree with the borders. The division is basically south=(kingdom of two sicilies plus Lazio) north=(from Tuscany upwards). Basically 95% of the cultural differences can be traced back to the mercantile/urban vs aristocratic/rural divide in the middle ages.

>>2542118
Well yeah, but I'm the late 19th/early 20th century Italians had still developed a sense of nationalism right?

>>2542123
>you can make an argument that we're all italians ethnically NOW, but certainly not 50 years ago, nevermind 150

That's pretty recent, anything big happen 50 years ago or was it gradual?

>They still are mutually unintelligible (hell even tuscan, so called mother language of italian is basically unintelligible to northerners), we just all know italian now. A good many dialects are actually full blown languages actually.

Still? That's pretty fascinating. It reminds me of a smaller version of the "Han Chinese" meme, where there are noticeable physical differences within this one supposed group and the subgroups within it speak dialects that are basically their own languages.

Never thought I'd actually get anything on /his/, thanks Italianon.

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>>2541203
Why is there such animosity between Cisalpine Gauls and Magna Grecians? Cisalpine Gauls seem particularly buttblasted about the Magna Grecians.

>>2541426
That map is wrong, it's not %, it's permille.

>>2542164
>Gaul meme

They only expanded into the north much later: >>2542143 Ligurians and Veneti were Italic like everyone else and Rhaetians seemed to speak a language isolate.

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>>2542181
>meme

>>2542158
>anything big happen 50 years ago
Mass media and mass education happened. Also a good deal of internal population movement.

>>2542181
>They only expanded into the north much later
They also got literally genocided or evicted between the post 2nd punic war purge and the post social war purge. A few tribes like the boii literally decided to leave at some point too.

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>>2542193
You know, they didn't used to control those lands. Emilians are too dark to be descended from the Gauls.

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>>2542232

>>2542232
>>2542241
I see these maps posted from time to time but they seem kinda bullshitty to me. Actual black hair is about as rare as blonde in the north, the vast majority is brown haired.

Also, as a black haired blue eyed guy, it feels silly as fuck to force together hair and eye colours.

>>2542232
It isn't that high, not even in Sardinia

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>>2542309
I think he classified "very dark brown" as "black" there since he did the same for eye color as well. Nobody can have black eyes, only very dark brown that appears black under certain lighting.

This one is interesting though. I can say that Venetians indeed have high rates of red hair from personal experience, but I dunno if it's accurate overall.

>>2542008
It had a nice location, doesn't mean it was valuable or productive otherwise. Think Jerusalem, which has been conquered and reconquered who knows how many times throughout history. That piece of land lacks any resources and until the past 3 decades the entire region was pretty unproductive for the rest of history.

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>>2542326
Unless by "very dark brown" he meant pic related, I'm still calling bullshit.

>>2542337
They had olives and purple dye though.

>>2542158
I live in the far north of Italy, I only speak standardised italian, unlike many elders. When elders speak our local dialect I can't fucking understand a word, tuscan and roman dialects are much easier to understand

>>2542371
>I only speak standardised italian
>tuscan and roman dialects are much easier to understand
That's because north italian dialects are literally in a different language group from standard italian, tuscan and roman.

>>2542382
yeah I know I was just givin insight

>>2542388
Instead of being a lazy bum why not learn the language of your elders?

>muh
Have any Italian anons ever been to these isles? Curious what they're like. My grandfather came from there and I guess there is still extended family living there.

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>>2542348
Probably something like this. Maybe a little lighter.

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>>2542399
forgot image

>>2542392
I've tried but there's little to no documentation and not even my father has nor had the time/will to teach me

>>2542371
>I only speak standardised italian
How the fuck even? I never even met anyone who couldn't speak his local dialect at least at a rudimentary level. Even the immigrants learn it, from terroni to chinks. Actually chinks seem to learn the dialect before the standard, even.

>>2542410
I certainly have an accent, and some features of the dialect, such as a couple word here and there that are used only in my region, but I can't go all "uelà mi sum nai a vedere la nina cha gà na roba intal stomac" or some shit. I'm improvising based on what I hear, I have no idea how to actually speak it, and I'd say, like, maybe 1/3 at most of young people can, here

If I remember correctly, the economic disparity between southern Italy and central and northern Italy developed early on in the Romans' control of the peninsula way back in the kingdom period of Roman history. I forget exactly what the circumstances are though.

>>2542437
>I forget exactly what the circumstances are though.
The north was an important agricultural area and it had very well developed industries by Caesar's time. In the south Sicily was fertile but got razed like every other year, while magna grecia aside campania was arid and rocky.

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>>2542437
>>2542464
Sicily was poor as fuck compared to the peninsula.

>>2542437
>>2542464
And that was also maintained as time went on, as huge economic hubs were created like Venice and Genoa {Milan-Rome ect.} which spread wealth around the surrounding area, where as the south didn't have massive hubs like that and were not as easily accessible to neighboring nation states.

>>2542401
They only have a population of 11k people. Dunno what goes on there.

>>2542103
>They look pretty different
bullshit
whoever says such a thing is either bullshitting or he doesn't know what he's talking about
you can find thousands of different facial traits in both north and south

>>2542571
What are you about? Anon replied to a comment about roman Italy with a pic about roman Italy. Greeks and normans are unrelated to the period.

>>2542559
Well of course, I think {at least} they were referring to the average person, if you just took them off the streets. They tend to have different features/skin tone. Saying they're different ethnicity is just plain retarded though, it's not that extreme.

>>2541359
why are the dodeccanese in the aegean blue. what makes them richer than the rest of greece

>>2542484
Sicily was poor because of unequal land distribution, all of the farms were large estates powered by slavery called latifundia. This land distribution scheme outlasted both halves of the Roman Empire, the entire medieval + early modern + industrial period, and would only come to an end by 1950.

>but the scene is always the same; everywhere solitude and desolation that wrings the heart

https://www.jstor.org/stable/29776533

>>2542595
tourism shekels

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italiotes

So the Italiotes were Italic tribes living next to Greek settlements who spoke Greek?

>>2542599
doesn't the rest of greece get that too?

>>2542620
>The Italiotes (Greek: Ἰταλιῶται, Italiōtai) were the pre-Roman Greek-speaking inhabitants of the Italian Peninsula
>Greek-speaking
>Greek-speaking
>Greek-speaking
The greek settlers called themselves italiotes. The italic tribes called themselves by their own ethnic affiliation.

>>2542627
Not nearly as much as the regions on those maps, and I think a lot of that also comes from people taking cruises, they stop off at those locations. So you have a lot of wealthy people who want to enjoy the Mediterranean and have money to spend. And I assume those other reasons are going to be hurting even more which the whole migrant issues as of late, people staying away. It'll pass eventually though.

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>>2542589
>Saying they're different ethnicity is just plain retarded though

In my opinion, I think there's enough genetic difference between northern, central and southerners Italians and SPECIALLY Sardinians for us to classify them as separate people.

>>2541359
This map is a good argument against marxism.

>>2542663
more like it's a good argument against pseudo communist dictatorships

>>2542658
t. wikipedia genetist
you can even find people that look like an irishmen in the south as you can find somebody with stronger semitic features in the north
this is simply plain retarded

>>2542693
look like irishmen*

>>2542693
lad, not him, but southerners on average there are more people with dark hair and eyes in the south, sardinians do tend to be small, and both tend to be generally kind of hairier, and somewhat of darker skin tone (tho this might be due to being exposed to harsher summers)

>>2542708
sardinia is a very isolated island for obvious reasons and i have no idea about them, but unless you cherrypick people from south tirol you simply cannot tell northerners and southerners apart

>>2542716
I might not be able to pick 1 northener and 1 southerner apart, but if you give me 2 groups of 50 people each, one having only northeners and one having only southerners, I could very easily tell which group is which

>>2542687
Kek, implying you can actually progress a marxist state beyond pseudo communist dictatorship.

>>2542724
the feasibility of communism advancing from a dictatorship to a stateless commune is irrelevant to the point that what fucked eastern europe up was being under a regressive dictatorship, and not the ideology the state party (pretended) to adhere to

>>2542731
kill yourself trotsky

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>>2542693
It's your anecdote vs genetic studies by professionals. There are significant cultural and genetic differences between the regions.

>>2542733
im not even a commie lol

>>2542735
>cultural
surely
>genetic
maybe with the kraut regions

are people here aware that something named central italy exist?
or the professors here even believe that Tuscany is the north?

>>2542747
Dude I've got two words for you: Cavalli Sforza.

>>2542756
literally why would you make this post

>>2542763
I have the impression that some people here don't even know the boundaries and think that the North ends in Rome

>>2542767
and this is relevant to the discussion about north vs. south in Italy because?
I mean ffs, even we italians have the north vs south meme, benvenuti al sud/benvenuti al nord, rings a bell?

>>2542772
ok so where do you think they believe Tuscany belongs to?

>>2542776
I don't give a shit what they think of tuscany because it's irrelevant to the discussion. Also, culturally, you could say Italy is divided north vs south along the lines of the old Papal state (the one that held Urbino and Ancona etc.), with everything in the old kingom of 2 sicilies being the "cultural south". Linguistically and genetically it is far different, and even on the cultural level this is just one of many possible theories, but still, it's one

>>2542788
>I played EU4 once so I know about italian regionalism

The Papal States were never in the north, fucking l m a o

>>2542788
do you believe that Tuscany or Rome are more similar to the northerners?
because, starting from the local languages, this would be absolutely ludicrous

>>2542788
>culturally, you could say Italy is divided north vs south along the lines of the old Papal state
Meh. Certain areas of the papal states like Bologna and Romagna are clearly northern. It would be more precise to say that the divide is set where urban communes give way to rural aristocracy, meaning somewhere between south of Rome and south of Ancona.

>>2542793
it's very easy for the padanian monkeys to take Tuscany as their clay
if we don't want to acknowledge central italy in this discussion then the south should go up to there

>>2542791
I've seen theorized that the papal state used to sign a cultural divide, acting as a sort of cultural barrier between what was south and north of it. I don't recall the exact arguments, but it's worth a thought. Fuck off with your le EU4 knowledge
>>2542793
I don't really know about Rome, but Tuscany I know better, because my grandpa is from there and we visit almost every summer. What I can say is that Tuscany is much, much less similar to my region (let's say Como-ish) than, like, Brescia or Milano, but I can't tell how similar Tuscany is to the south really

>>2542813
Tuscan dialect has little to do with northerner dialects, and central dialects sound much more close to the South than to the North ofc

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>>2542793
>Tuscany

They are our big headed brothers.

>>2542823
Well yeah, linguistically everything north of tuscany has been heavily influenced by french (or rather, northern italian and occitan influenced each other), but this thread is more about culture

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIVs2eBnhvM
the most famous Tuscan alive

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>>2542793
>but I can't tell how similar Tuscany is to the south really

Comparing the treasured jewel of the peninsula responsible for producing pretty much all high culture to fucking terroni whose greatest achievements are pizza, mafia and tarantella is ridiculous.

>>2542735
WHAT THE HELL?

Spanish are closer to Saridnians than Italians?

This makes 0 sense

>>2542900
do you even know where the first poetry in Italian is from?
do you know where the medieval poetry school that inspired the tuscans was from?
study moar before to even use the word "culture" in this discussion you fucking polentanigger

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>>2542900
>whose greatest achievements are pizza, mafia and tarantella

>>2542824
>tfw small headed subhuman

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>>2542917
>>2542924
>we wuz Renaissance n shit

You can erase southern Italy from existence and the only difference is that we would wipe the floor with everyone in terms of accomplishments per capita. Sounds like a good deal to me.

>>2542917
>do you even know where the first poetry in Italian is from?
Don't overreach dude. The cantico delle creature is considered the first example of italian poetry, not the sicilian school (which did indeed inspire dolce stil novo in Tuscany.

>>2542723
Guy who posted that "they look different" comment here. This was what I meant, yes. You could tell the difference between a crowd of northerners and southerners without too much trouble even if you couldn't immediately tell from looking if one particular person was a southerner or northerner. Similar to how some Turks or Tunisians can be pale-skinned with light hair and eyes, but the statistically average Turk or Tunisian can still be easily distinguished from the statistically average French or Russian person.

>>2542900
>pizza, mafia

your most famous exports desu

>>2542956
>muh human accomplishments book by somedude
i would understand that if you were a bantering briton, but this is ludicrous kek

>>2542824
>>2542232
>Lucca
Maybe it really is the last bastion of the Etruscans.

>>2542992
Casentino and Volterra actually: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_civilization

>The latest mitochondrial DNA study (2013) shows that Etruscans appear to fall very close to a Neolithic population from Central Europe and to other Tuscan populations, and are ancestral to the modern inhabitants of Casentino and Volterra. The study also excluded recent Anatolian connection.

>>2542956
>we would be kangz of world n sheeet
stfu cuck and don't forget to pay the taxes for the masters

>>2542992
Etruscans were extremely dolicocephalic, they had exacty the same craniums of the Sardinians

>>2543039
Source? They weren't the same as Sardinians though, they were inclined to West Asians genetically unlike Sardinians.

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>>2543065
I'm not saying they were the same genetically, I'm saying they were the same cranium wise, pic related

>>2543109
Do Sardinians actually look like horses? I never paid much attention.

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>>2542956
remember who give you a modern school system you monkey

>>2543150
gave*

>>2542824
>Sardinian headlets

>>2543144
Horses have long faces, not heads

>>2543144
Cephalic index is just the measurement of the top part of the cranium. It has some correlation with face length, but not much.

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>>2542956
But the very graphic you posted shows a huge cluster of musical accomplishment in Naples between the years 1600 and 1800.

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bump

The redpill is that Southern Italians are not really Italian/Italic. They're a mix of Greeks and Albanians.

>>2543305
What weird maps. They show Germany with greater Prussia but everything else is the same.

I kinda like it desu

>>2543764
Can you really credit the accomplishments of Prussians to Sl*vs? Can't blame him.

>>2543305
>english literature
>good

whoever made that was a pleb

Why do Italians and kikes end up close together genetically? Also

>>2543750

There was never an Albanian invasion of Italy, what are you on? Southerners are italians with added Greek

>>2542900
Have fun with your tourist infested "modern" cities.

South Italy is the real Italy.

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>>2543877
>Why do Italians and kikes end up close together genetically?

Because southerners are too heavy on West Asian ancestry. Impossible to tell the difference between a Joo and a Sicilian except for the fact that Joos are lighter pigmented.

>There was never an Albanian invasion of Italy, what are you on?

Messapians and Arbëreshë contributed significantly to their genepool. Pic related.

>>2543877
>Outside of their origins in ancient Israel, the history of Ashkenazim is shrouded in mystery,[48] and many theories have arisen speculating on their emergence as a distinct community of Jews.[49] The most well-supported theory is the one that details a Jewish migration from Israel through what is now Italy and other parts of southern Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews#History_of_Jews_in_Europe_before_the_Ashkenazim

>>2542309

The hair/eye fixation when it comes to men always reeked of a kind of homo-eroticism to me to care so much about a man's appearance beyond the quick and immediate check of "Does he look white or not".

>>2542596

I don't mean to be a fedorafag because obviously the church has done much good blah blah blah but I believe the church did a bang up job raping the land and the peasantry as much as the nobility did in south italy.

>>2543931

I like the North Italians because they managed to out-jew the jew in banking and trade.

1204AD best day of my life revenge for massacre of the latins.

>>2543877
>Why do Italians and kikes end up close together genetically?
Because modern "jews" are literally descended from Italian proselytes mixed with Hebrews.

>>2543969
>I like the North Italians because they managed to out-jew the jew in banking and trade.

If only I had a reaction image of laughing Florentine, Genoese and Venetian merchants.

>>2542070

99% percent of the people posting those "genetic maps" don't understand how they work at all and they assume they're accurate.

>>2542663

more like a good argument for why east europeans are retards

>>2542731
Communism in it's middle stage is still communism.

>>2542735

why do these genetic maps always have different results? lol

stop posting this retarded shit that none of you even understand you autistic retards

>>2543990

You mean Ashkenazi Jews.

>>2544035
Depends what they're plotted against.

What Italian ethnicity is Monica Bellucci?

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>>2542100
That guy is probably not Sardinian (that are a lot of trolls running around and posting as us, for some reason), and the image he posted is from a fantasy short movie about Nuragic Sardinia Nuraghes - S'arena).

>>2542070
>>>2542043
>we were Phoenician/Africans
Lel no. Where the hell did you get that idea? Sardinians are what a good part of the first Europeans looked like.

At least you're not Chinese.

>come to America
>people always think I'm Korean
>oh? you're not Korean? you must be Japanese then
>no, I am 100% Chinese
>but you don't look like the Chinese people I know

Cantonese screwed up everyone's image of Chinese and now people think you have to be Jackie Chan to be Chinese. I like Jackie Chan, but this is too much.

>>2544109
Is that drawing Sardinian? If so that's awesome.

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>>2544110
Did you visit California?

Why does everything think the South always was a crime ridden poor hellhole?

The King of Two Sicilies are quite wealthy, and Naples was considered rich as well up until the 1800s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_the_Two_Sicilies

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>>2544109
>first Europeans

No. Sardinians don't look like hunter gatherers. They have minimal ancestry from them.

there is general suspicion between towns OP

let alone the entire north and the south

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>>2544167
Yep. It's modern, but made with Sardinian symbols and represents a nuragic ship. I'm on my phone, that is a bit old and slow as hell, so I can't do it now, but if you reverse-image search you will find the artist and the rest of the series.

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>>2544110
>Cantonese
But they are the purest Han Chinese :^)

>>2544240
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/sep/18/ancient-ancestors-europeans-dna-study

>>2544110
>the Americans just wouldn't instantly assume you were Chinese even if you weren't
>Americans can tell the difference between Cantonese, Koreans, and Japanese

Lost me there desu.

>>2544110

I feel that I have a pretty good gauge on what a Chinese looks like compared to a Japanese

of course, a Korean and a Chinese, that's pretty hard

at any rate, I can tell your languages apart, at least spoken, chinese and japanese of course can use the same characters, which I'm sure is humorous for people that actually use that writing system

>>2541203
Which of them are more closely related to (and more closely resemble) the Ancient Romans?

>>2541359
>poortugal
Wew

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>>2541249