Where do we place the real end of the Roman Empire? Maybe after

When Constantinople fell.

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>>2521180
1453

>>2521180
I'd say Rome became Byzantium in 621, but Rome ended in 1453

753 BC

Remus was the trve roman...

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>>2521194
>>2521195
t. Latin massacring Greek larpers

Venice was way more Roman than that piece of shit.

>founded by Roman nobles fleeing from barbarian invasions
>Italic speaking
>ROMAN Catholic
>Republic like early Rome but also technically an empire
>ruled the Mediterranean sea
>BTFO the fake Romans

476 AD. Odoacer, chief of the Heruli, ousts the last Western Roman Emperor: Romulus Augustulus.

The western portion of the Roman Empire ended with the deposition of Romulus Augustulus or arguably the death of Julian Nepos

The eastern portion of the Roman Empire ended with its conquest by the Ottoman Empire

What is this baffling hostility /his/ has to the Roman Empire after certain periods? I don't get it. It was the same state from Augustus until Constantine XI

>>2521214

"BTFO"

>Sea Jews refused to fight the Byzantine army during the 1177 war, constantly running away because they knew they would get btfo.

>rely on fleet to pressure Byzantines'

>Fleet gets raped

>sues for peace immediately

>Ruled the Mediterranean

Until the Ottomans raped them that is. Furthermore, by your logic, since they didn't own Rome they could never be Romans.

Stupid seanigger faggot, kys

>>2521214
"Rome" ended several times.

It ended when it went from the classical SPQR Republic into the Caesarian Empire.

It ended when Paganism was out of fashion and Christianity was in.

It ended when the WRE fell to Barbarians.

It ended when Byzantine fell to the Turks.

It ended when the Holy Roman Emperor ended.

It ended when then Reformation made Europe break away from Rome's grasp.

Once the Vatican and Papacy is destroyed, then Rome is truly dead.

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>>2521221
>"Roman" Empire
>Without holding Rome for most of its span
>Without Rome as the sole capital city
>Without the Latin language

>>2521221

The Sea Jews aka Venetians, and shitposting Turks.

>>2521228

>Without Rome

Nigger Rome wasn't even the capital of the late empire, it was an irrelevant shithole. Constantinople had been the new capital since Saint Constantine decreed it as such.

>>2521217

Gibbons please go

The Roman Empire as a concept: Never
The Roman Empire as an actual stable empire: Probably the Crisis of the Third Century and Diocletian, once your capital's not Rome it ceases to be the Roman empire

>>2521221

t. Mehmet Ali Papadopolos

>>2521227
>It ended when Paganism was out of fashion and Christianity was in.
You put this but not Diocletian? How retarded are you? Why is this board this obsessed with religion?

>>2521228

>He doesn't know the Western empire transferred its capital from Rome 200 years before the West fell

Idiot

The Romaboos are jealous that their city fell to butt-naked German savages while Byzantine stood tall for centuries, rich and wealthy.

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>WE WUZ ROMANS

>>2521227
Rome was not the capital of the late WRE. It was Milan and Ravenna. Venice ruled both of those cities for a while.

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>>2521231
>>2521238
Looks like we've established the real end of the Roman Empire, then.
Thanks, Constantine, for allowing the Eternal City to fester and rot its way towards irrelevance.

>>2521247
Misquoted: >>2521224

>>2521231
>>2521249
Constantinople = capital of the ERE
Milan and Ravenna = capitals of the WRE

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Rome still exists. Emperors became Popes.

Rome was still strong throughout the Medieval ages. It wouldn't be until the Protestant Reformation that ties were truly broken with the Eternal Roman.

>>2521253
>Milan and Ravenna = capitals of the WRE
Then it's not the Roman empire, if it were Italians would be called Romans today

>>2521246
>>2521234

Not

An

Argument.

And furthermore, genetic studies have shown that modern Greeks are very similar to classical age Greeks, and cherrypicking some picture (note the light skinned people in the background) doesn't change that.

>>2521256
Pontiff and Emperor have always been separate jobs... since before Christianity

>>2521195
/thread

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>>2521253
Milan and Ravenna could never replace the Eternal City. That is why the West fell.
The Roman Empire is only Roman if the highest authority lies in Rome, and I dare you to prove me wrong, plebeians.

>>2521217
This. The Roman Empire ended when the last Emperor of Rome was disposed.

>>2521231
>>2521238
>>2521247
>Cuckstantine moves capital to Rome
>dies
>Empire splits again, Rome capital of the Western Roman Empire for most of the period from the end of Constantine's united Empire to 476AD
>NO CONSTANTINOPLE IS THE CAPITAL FOREVER BECAUSE MY FAVORITE EMPEROR (Saint, lol) MADE IT SO FOREVER AND EVER

Byzantineboos are absolute fucking cancer. Go and admire the Byzantine Empire, I don't care. Just don't call an Empire whose people and rulers spoke only Greek, worshiped like Greeks and lived in fucking Greece "Romans."

>All these Roman dickriders
>They think they'd even be plebs in Rome

90% of Romans were slaves. I don't get why people think they all lived in Marble cities and were close to developing electricity

>>2521266
>Rome
*Cuckstantinople

>>2521267
>90% of Romans were slaves.
Roman citizens couldn't be slaves dipshit. Go suck Ottoman dick.

>>2521263
>Rome, Milan and Ravenna

All part of Italy today.

>Constantinople

Part of Turkey.

Greek niggers btfo.

>>2521267
>90% of Romans were slaves
Are you a Fucking retard?

Also this entire thread is just retarded hipsters going
>xdDxxxD yea fuk da byzzantenes teehee

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>>2521267
>90% of Romans were slaves
Verifiably false. Slaves were generally foreigners, specifically prisoners of war and trophies of conquest that were captured during legion campaigns.

>Marble
You mean cementum, pleb. Marble was purely decorative and aesthetic, cement concrete was the prime building material of Roman architecture. Not only was it extremely advanced for its time, but even in the present era we're having trouble reaching its strength and reliability with our own cement mixes.

>were close to developing electricity
No, but they were close to developing steam power.

>>2521282
Liking the Byzantines is literally the most hipster contrarian thing you can do. Literally anyone with half a brain can see that Ancient Rome was better. Byzantineboos are cancer on par with Deus Vult LARPers, in fact half of them are retarded /pol/posters.

Fuck off Jupiter and Sol Invicta not Christ and Constantine.

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>the capital of your vast sprawling empire has to be a certain city or else obese neck beards on a tuvanese throat singing website will shit their pants and cry
Yeah fuck the the fact that Constantinople was richer and larger than Roma ever was.

>>2521282

>ridiculing greeks is hipster

its byzabooing itself which is contrarian. popular consciousness recognizes it as a degenerate WEWUZer meme empire

>>2521303
>Letting your capital city fall into irrelevance and replacing it with a shiny new fad city because you're too lazy to maintain your capital's infrastructure
Gibbon's book should've been all about this and nothing else.

>>2521301
You're assuming that just because I think the later Roman Empire (Byzantium) was interesting that I hate every other period of Rome's existence? Are you autistic? People admire the Byzantines because they were able to maintain the institution of the Roman Empire through so much adversity. People always cheer for the underdog you autistic nigger

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>>2521266

>Hehe, if I constantly say the word cuck maybe he won't notice my argument sucks ass.

It was the eastern half of Rome, it had majority Greek speakers as far back as the Seleucids and that continued when Rome conquered it, and it carried on Greco-Roman culture and learning as well as many of Rome's institutions. Sure its very differently politically, but its Rome, and in the absence of the Western half it is its natural successor.

>>2521317
Said shiny fad city did extremely well for itself faggot

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>>2521308
>popular consciousness recognizes it as a degenerate WEWUZer
"popular consciousness" on historical matters is meaningless. Pic related.

>>2521308
Every major historian considers it the uninterrupted continuation of the Roman Empire

>>2521308
>popular consciousness
Maybe popular consciousness of the >H>R>E

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>>2521308

Not

an

argument

>Using the word "degenerate"

Gee wiz, you must be truly """redpilled""" my gentlesir.

>>2521320
>they were able to maintain the institution of the Roman Empire through so much adversity

The Roman Empire wasn't a quasi-feudal rump state.

>>2521324
>it had majority Greek speakers as far back as the Seleucids and that continued when Rome conquered it

Are you saying the Roman Empire had a Greek speaking majority or just the Eastern half?
Because there's a huge difference between an elite and sizeable subject population being able to speak Greek and an entire Empire made up of a Greek speaking majority, lead by dynastic rulers whose first language was Greek instead of Latin.

>>2521325
It was good for slowing down the rot and decay in the system, but not for recapturing and holding what was lost. Even Justinian could not truly restore the Roman Empire, considering Rome itself was only held for a very brief amount of time, and both Hispania and Gaul remained out of his hands.
Constantinople should have stayed an economic trade hub, maybe a provincial capital, but nothing more.

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>>2521331
>different language
>different religion
>different customs
>different art
>different architecture
>different people

Yeah it's totally the same thing lmao.

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This Greek WE WUZISM got so pathetic in the end that even feudalistic slavshits started calling themselves "Third Rome" because they bought the title from the Byz*ntines. Fuck's sake. Byz*ntines aren't Roman, """""Holy""""" """""Roman""""" """""Empire""""" isn't Roman, R*ssian Empire isn't Roman, T*rks aren't Roman. FUCK OFF.

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Mehmet II was a ceaser of the Roman empire. If you claim Byzantium was Rome you have to at least accept that Mehmet who was descended from emperors was Caesar

>>2521418
Good thing I don't claim Byzantium was Rome, then. See >>2521263 and especially the picture.

>>2521415
Who are you to decide that lol

>>2521430
who are you? I dont care about your opinion.

>>2521418
haha nice one reddit

>>2521180
476.

But Justinian sounded a deathnell for the death of the ERE with his retarded over-extended conquests and bankrupting of the nation that had been handed to him in rather good condition.

>>2521418

>Outside empire destroys and deposes and emperor
>Hurr Durr it's the same line of succession

>>2521221
>Roman Empire after certain periods
You mean the Greek Empire?

>>2521437
It is the same line of succession though.. he was related by blood. The Byzantine empire isn't exactly an "inside empire" either

>>2521437

>ethnically, linguistically, religiously different Greeks want to LARP as romans
>this is fine

>ethnically, linguistically, religiously different Turks want to LARP as romans too
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

the autism of byzaboos everyone

>>2521221
It wasnt even the same state from one day to the next. People just care about imaginary titles too much

>>2521445

Blood has literally nothing to do with succession

The reason mehmet was not a Roman empire was because he was a complete outsider with his own empire and destroyed another.

This isn't hard to understand

>>2521435
>>2521437
Notice how Byzantinefags immediately go on the defensive the second you ask them how the "mantle" of the Holy Roman Empire is transferred. Please enlighten us as to why Greeks can be Romans if they control what you claim to be the capital of the "Roman Empire" since Constantine, while the Ottomans cannot.

>line of succession
A parade of coups does not a line of succession make.

>>2521434
>this triggers the t*rkroach

>>2521261
If I'm not mistaken, weren't a few Emperors Pontifex Maximus as well?

>>2521457
Two separate offices, but usually held by the same individual.

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>>2521457

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>>2521448
>WAAAAAAAEEEHHHHH MOMMY I POOPY IN MY DIAPER WWWAAAAAAAAAEHHH MOMMY IM RETARDED WAAAAAAEHHHH
Okay dude.

>>2521451
Who are you to decide who an outsider is? How are any of the Greek Byzantium royal families not outsiders?

>>2521337
Pretty triggering how the sword is sheathed upside-down.

>>2521448
How is the continuous Romanness of the ERE larping? You don't know what larping is and throw the term around like its pennies.

>>2521472
Peaceful and intentional transition of power, you mong.

>>2521448
/his/ roman succession threads in a nutshell. The funny thing is that Mehmet had more claim to he original rome as any of the Greeks did.

>>2521481
Is that a rule you made up? Nice try

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>>2521476
>romanness is being different in every possible way but keeping the name "Roman"

>>2521481
>Peaceful and intentional transition of power
>In the Byzantine Empire

They were worse than post Julio-Claudian Rome.

>>2521481
There goes the claim of the entire Roman Empire from being legitimate.

>>2521476
>LARPing
>Live Action RolePlay
AKA pretending to be something you aren't. Just like the Byzantine Empire after Phocas usurped the Justinian Dynasty.

>>2521453
It's not because they control a certain city you autistic child they were the literal continuation of the Roman state. An alien culture with an alien religion occupies your territory, does that make them the exact same state? That's what the turks slowly did to the ERE

>>2521493
Rome ended at the Year of the Four Emperors confirmed.

>>2521482
How?

>>2521497
>An alien culture with an alien religion occupies your territory

Greeks aren't true Latin Romans.
Orthodox Christianity isn't the true Latin Roman religion.

Come on, it's not that hard, just admit that by your own standards the Byzantines weren't Roman.

>>2521494
How were the Romans themselves not just pretending? Its not like them declaring themselves to be Rome has any weight to it since empires are not physical things.

My guess as to why Western fags are so salty about ERE being legitimately Roman? It takes away from the neopagan fantasy that Christianity was the cause of Rome's decline.

>>2521497
> literal continuation of the Roman state

But this is wrong, WRE and ERE were separate states.

>>2521511
Roman Empire ended in 610 AD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclius

>He was responsible for introducing Greek as the Eastern Roman Empire's official language.

/thread

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This thread is proof that Catholic larpers are still butthurt that the true Roman Empire was in the east while they were getting assfucked by German Barbarians lol.

>>2521374
>different religion
>different customs
>different art
>different architecture
>different people

No.

>>2521512
The Romans themselves were Romans though. Phocas, the Heraclians, the Isauros, etc. were all Greek and of Greek origin.

>>2521517
They were both the Roman Empire you fucking meme

>>2521514

>implying

more to do with Greeks pretending to be Roman whilst not in communion with the Roman Church

>>2521448
>>2521482
This is the part people get wrong though. Mehmet referring to himself as "Caesar" once in a letter is somehow tantamount to "The Ottomans considered themselves as the successors of the Roman empire"

They fucking didn't, no idea where people get this stupid idea

>>2521520
>Lol salty butthurt goymans #truerome
Guys, save us from the Muslims, please.

>>2521519
So you would consider Phocas to be the last Roman Emperor, wew.

>>2521520
>reducing 900 years of history into christian squabbles that began in the last 100

>>2521517
They weren't, they were separate governments controlling different parts of what was regarded as one state

>>2521521
>deny evidence because orthodox LARP fantasy

Claim it as an idea or something spiritual if you like, but all of those things were different.

>>2521524
And one retained everything Roman while the other gradually eschewed those things.

>>2521522
So technically anyone who owns rome or is a roman who rules from rome can make the claim?

>>2521522
Leadership for the Empire had been coming from the provinces for centuries. Many emperors didn't come from Italia, I guess the Roman Empire ended then to

>>2521535
Okay, unofficially at 602 AD, but 610 AD was when they made it clear it wasn't Roman anymore.

>>2521538
>And one retained everything Roman
The Rome of the 3rd century BC would be unrecognisable to someone living in the empire in the 3rd century AD but you wouldn't consider them to be less Roman for it

>>2521538
>everything Roman
Who the fuck are you to decide that

>>2521529
If it was written once in a letter then why did the Patriarch of Constantinople declare him to be the true successor to Rome?

>>2521537
>2 Emperors
>2 Governments
>2 Religions
>2 Militaries
>1 State

The actions of both showed well enough that neither regarded the other as part of one state.

>>2521550
Who the fuck decided that being Roman was about being a DOOS VALT MUH CRUSADES LARPer

Christians on /his/ apparently.

>>2521540
>Implying a Latin-speaking Roman citizen is on the same level as a Greek-speaking person born two centuries after the Empire split

>>2521539
Anyone who was born into the Roman Empire, is a Citizen of the Empire, and primarily uses Latin, yes.

>>2521547
Roman Republicans were different from Roman Imperials.

>>2521545
Basileia Romaion

Deal with it cuckboy

>>2521538
Roman citizens
Same church until 1054, even if you support the Pope, they're still Christians, no different than an array of heretical groups of centuries past.
Implying that Roman architecture, art, and customs weren't heavily influenced by Hellenism centuries before the WRE fell

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1922

This was the last true Roman Emperor

>>2521564
>Putting Rome/an in the name makes them Roman
Well, pack it up boys, looks like the Roman Empire is still around
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania

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>>2521567
>>2521418
BOSNIA IS UNDENIABLY THE HEIR OF ROME AND THE CALIPHATE

>>2521570
I'm glad I don't have aspergers

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>>2521575
The UK actually has a claim since Queen Elizabeth is related to Muhammad

>>2521562
>Roman Republicans were different from Roman Imperials.

The rest of your post is 100% correct, but I kind of take issue with this. There was no radical transition between Republic and Empire. Other than a few executions and murders relating to the civil war, the Roman aristocracy and populace transitioned from Republic to Empire without any major demographic change.

>>2521565
Only influence. You're can't claim that Vergil was a Greek poet because he was inspired by the Homeric tradition. By that measure Joyce and Shakespeare are Greek.

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>>2521565
>Roman citizens
That's akin to saying that the Goths sacked Rome as part of a civil war, since they had been allowed in and made citizens.

>Same church until 1054
Officially. In the ERE things were always very schismatic and heretical for centuries, it was the hotbed of Arianism too.

>Implying that Roman architecture, art, and customs weren't heavily influenced by Hellenism centuries before the WRE fell
>influenced by = not different

>>2521562
>and primarily uses Latin, yes.
So everyone living in the Empire outside of Italy, Dacia, Hispania and Gaul wasn't actually Roman. Alright dude whatever.

>>2521570
The name always was rome

Why don't we just set some ground rules for what Roman Empire even means?

>>2521581
>The rest of your post is 100% correct, but I kind of take issue with this. There was no radical transition between Republic and Empire. Other than a few executions and murders relating to the civil war, the Roman aristocracy and populace transitioned from Republic to Empire without any major demographic change.
I just meant in the sense that a Republican Roman wouldn't regard an Imperial as a Roman because of how they felt about monarchy.

>>2521588
Because that would take even longer, and probably attract Russians.

>>2521584
>Implying that means they changed the language to fit them like the Heraclians, and their successors kept it that way if they did.

>>2521584
Roman citizens =/= ethnic Latin Romans
Rome's Emperors were ethnic Latins until the later years of the Empire, even if its citizens weren't.

>>2521565
Byzantine architecture looks nothing like traditional Greco-Roman architecture.

>>2521582
Greeks were always more privileged than other peoples Rome conquered.

Rome died the day Julian the Apostate was pierced by a Persian spear.

>>2521580
But MUH Reisul-ulema

>>2521588
>Princeps
>"Natural" Latin speaker, meaning they spoke Greek as a second language


>>2521602
Maybe after Nero. Before then the Romanised Gauls had it better than the Greeks.

>have a log
>log is too heavy by itself
>saw log in half
>one half gets burned
>still have remaining half of log
>autismoids come up to me and tell me that my log isn't actually a log
>they start claiming that rocks and leaves are TRUE logs and that my log is actually a flower
Wtf I hate analogies now

>>2521180
In 1453, when the Roman Empire was finally conquered.

>>2521613

>have a log
>saw log in half
>pretend it's the same log

>>2521613
Only a good analogy if each half of the log is a different kind of wood.

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>>2521613
Your log turned into petrified wood later, i.e something different than it's original state.

>>2521613
>DUDE JASON'S SHIP LMAO

Try this.
>get log
>paint the whole thing red
>then take some blue paint and paint half of the log blue
>cut the log in half, burn the red half
>try and convince people you still have a red log despite the fact it's obviously blue

>>2521620
Is the HRE a different tree planted in the burned log's ashes then? The Ottoman Empire oil that might be from a tree? And Russia a streetlight with the word "log" written in magic marker on it?

>>2521624
Except it's still a log, and it's still wood. It's just of a slightly different character and structure that makes it hard to recognise as being the same log as it had been previously.

>>2521613

I have a log I have a byzaboo

Uhhh I'm Vlad the Impaler

>>2521641
>Except it's still a log, and it's still wood
No, it's a rock.

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>Rome started out wishing it were Greek
>Greek Byzantium ended up wishing it were Roman

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>>2521641
>it's still a log, and it's still wood

No. It's a fossil.

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When will Byzaboos get tired of being BTFO?

>>2521679
Never, they're worse than Angloboos.

>>2521679
*falls to the visigoths*

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>>2521678
>>2521661
Pure semantics.

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>>2521704
*massacres Latin speaking people that gave origin to Rome*

*gets BTFO by a blind 97 year old man later*

>>2521708
Except that it is, in literally every possible way, a rock.

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>>2521714
Tomatos

Tomatos

>>2521453
>anti byzzie poster
>those digits

476 AD, everything after that was largely a meme.
Though the declination of the Empire began (slowly) after the 19th of August 14 AD aka Augustus' death, it was all downhill from there, with the drop off becoming steep after 200 AD.

>>2521453
>1453
Wew, lad.

>>2521713

>An event that happened under the very brief rule of a guy from 30 years ago is justification for be to be a fucking nigger and sack your capital, depopulating it through pisspoor management and looting the shit out of it.

kys Olivenigger, I want Venice to get invaded and raped by the upcoming European caliphate.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Latins

>The Venetians and the Empire remained at war, with the Venetians prudently avoiding direct confrontation but sponsoring Serb uprisings, besieging Ancona, Byzantium's last stronghold in Italy, and signing a treaty with the Norman Kingdom of Sicily. Relations were only gradually normalized: there is evidence of a treaty in 1179, although a full restoration of relations would only be reached in the mid-1180s. Meanwhile, the Genoese and Pisans profited from the dispute with Venice, and by 1180, it is estimated that up to 60,000 Latins lived in Constantinople

>Many had anticipated the events and escaped by sea. The ensuing massacre was indiscriminate: neither women nor children were spared, and Latin patients lying in hospital beds were murdered. Houses, churches, and charities were looted. Latin clergymen received special attention, and Cardinal John, the papal legate, was beheaded and his head was dragged through the streets at the tail of a dog.

>The massacre further worsened the image of the Byzantines in the West, and although regular trade agreements were soon resumed between Byzantium and Latin states, the underlying hostility would remain, leading to a spiraling chain of hostilities: a Norman expedition under William II of Sicily in 1185 sacked Thessalonica, the Empire's second largest city, and the German emperors Frederick Barbarossa and Henry VI both threatened to attack Constantinople.

WE DINDU NUFFIN. 4TH CRUSADE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

Get fucked, Greek LARPer scum. You got what you deserved.

>>2521992
Forgot to quote this nigger: >>2521928

Real rome ended at 1923

>>2521180
When it became a Dominate under Diocletian.
It became too Asiatic and thoroughly unRoman, a total disgrace.

>>2521992

Not

An

Argument.

Your still a Nigger.

>>2521180
>Christian Rome
Lmao

>>2521992
>killed a bunch of jews
>deserved to have their capital sacked by christians
???
they literally did nothing wrong

>>2522407
>FUCK COMMERCE, I'M GOING TO KILL THESE PEOPLE BECAUSE I'M JEALOUS OF THEM MAKING MORE MONEY THAN ME
>NOT EVEN WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PRIESTS WILL BE SPARED

Byz*ntines are niggers jealous of the success of the true descendants of the Romans.

>>2522004
Agreed

>>2521448
Ok it's 4chan,but the whole idea of a continuation is that of a state with mechanisms that survive.so yes the roman empire continued in the east until its very fall.at least accept that there was a fucking senate in Constantinopolis up until 1204.Even a pure decorative one with the evolutions of the dignitaries and offices of the Empire both in east and west.so the roman empire held until 1204 with continuous line of emprerors who ascended with traditional roman ways,such as murdering,scheming,by hereditary tradition or by pure chance.just as all the emperors did.houses and dynasties rose and fall.the empire shrinked and was mabe great again by Justinian I or Basil II.Latin was abolished as an official language but was still used ceremonial.Medieval greek adopted many latin words.Christianity kept is roots as with the late empire and finally all of the people who didnt have sthg to lose from the empire call them romans.only the pope and the germanic franks and later HRE were calling them greeks,after 800 AD.which is more than 300 years after the fall of the imperial seat at the west.Byzantine should exist as a title only as a synonym of the Eastern roman empire.the only empire who did exist under roman law up until the very end.Even hellenic-greek nationalism rose after the sack of 1204 and until the end of palaiologian dynasty at 1453.

>>2522480
>only the pope and the germanic franks and later HRE were calling them greeks,after 800 AD

And they were right. They spoke Greek after 610 AD, not Latin. Frankish empire had Latin as one it's official languages. They were culturally more Roman than those faggot larpers.

>>2521553
not 2 religions.schism happened centuries later are you and imbecile?

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>>2521180
1806

>>2522436
>preventing the eternal venetian from making money
>bad

Never ended culturally

>>2522528
>not reading shit correctly

The Venetians were expelled from Constantinople before the massacre. They killed mostly Pisans and Genoans. That would worsen their relations with the Catholic Church and lead to various conflicts before the 4th crusade. The Venetians showed them who's the real boss of the Mediterranean later.

>>2522497
>Greek isn't an essential part of Roman culture

Leave

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>>2522561

>>2522497
what latin?vulgar?ecclesiastical?Well as much as you hate to understand what history can teach us there is a single state who could be roman because of law,religion and culture.none of the succesor states in west spoke latin.NONE.they fucking couldnt even read.only the locals spoke latin,a vulgar simplified one and the mixing with germanic races and all the others made them who they were.franks were germanic became french who are not at all.Heraclius called himself basileus but the coins kept the form of augustus.check for yourself.and the east was roman for fucking 6 centuries.there were prefects up until 600 then exarchs and generals(strathgoi who replaced magistri militum).magister officiorum became magistros officion in greek.its like the half german half galloroman feudalistic state was roman.Not a single fudalistic state was roman.Roman imperium was centralized as all empires of the antiquity and franks,germans cisty states of italy and other people cannot claim any continuity.holy roman emperors sought to legitimize their titles by asking what You call byzantine princesses and heirs to marriage.only after the schsim and the start of the crusades shit hit the fan.

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>>2522497
You are joking right? The Romans were larping as greeks the whole time.

>>2522584
You were only considered elite in Rome if you could speak Greek and recite Homer.

"During this period in Roman history, "cultured" meant being able to speak both Latin and Greek. Cicero was therefore educated in the teachings of the ancient Greek philosophers, poets and historians; he obtained much of his understanding of the theory and practice of rhetoric from the Greek poet Archias[16] and from the Greek rhetorician Apollonius.[17] Cicero used his knowledge of Greek to translate many of the theoretical concepts of Greek philosophy into Latin, thus translating Greek philosophical works for a larger audience. It was precisely his broad education that tied him to the traditional Roman elite"

>>2522594
So what? It wasn't the official language.

>>2522598
So it means the Romans were just wannabe greeks.

>>2522612
Maybe, but they never wanted to be Byzantines. That's for sure. Byzantine culture is also alien to ancient Greece. Their architecture, religion, art and even language was different as ancient Greek evolved into medieval Greek just like Latin evolved into Italian.

>>2521180
Seems pretty fair tbqh, senpai. He was the last Latin-speaking Eastern Roman Emperor, the dream of reuniting both sides of the original Roman Empire and restorting Pax Romana died with him.

>>2521651
Kek
Underrated post.

>>2521633
>And Russia a streetlight with the word "log" written in magic marker on it?
Kek

>>2521221
Butthurt German barbaroi who think the HRE was Rome, butthurt Turkoraches who, even more laughably, think the Ottomans were Rome, buttdevestated Catholic cultists who can't compete at all with Eastern Christianity, butthurt swamp merchant larpers who don't realise Venice was on a short Byzantine leash for most of its existence.

>>2521633
Russia makes way more sense being the succesor of Rome than the Turks do. And it's still pretty retarded

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/thread

It ended with Tarquinius

>>2523415
G*rmans btfo yet again

>>2521627
>have a log, half red half blue
>paint the entire log purple
>cut it in half
>burn the half that used to be red, now purple, keep the part that was blue, now purple
>watch a bunch of retards pretend the log remained half red and half blue

>>2521448
Yeah because the turk where totally know for the saving of ancient history and roman law.

>>2522436
Venice was on a Byzantine leash for most of its history, when they destroyed Constantinople and realized they'd fucked up because the Muslims refused to trade with them and they were losing tones of money, they resorted to sucking Turkish cock, only to get fucked again and become completely irrelevant

Venetians are literally retarded

>>2521482
>t*rks actually believe this
Lmao

1453

There was a clear line of succession. You don't consider the Kingdom of England to have started in 1066 do you?

>>2521713
Italians still pretending they're the descendants of Rome. Rome headed east, sorry you became barbarians

>>2523506
>Venetians

Italics with a bit of Germanic admix.

>Greeks

TURKED shitskins.

really made me think

This debate really is retarded it's like saying the song empire in china wasn't china because they didn't control north china. Also the language is not a argument even during the republic all patrician were speaking greek, even cato who was a grumpy a
old man knowed greek.

>>2521448
This kills the byzaboo

>>2523533
>being proud of being mongrelised by barbarians
>not realising the greeks wouldn't be turked for a thousand years after the moron larpers in the west were germed

>>2521453
>Roman state power is divided between east and west
>west dies, east survives
>east isn't even the successor to Roman authority, it literally is Rome and all historians agree on this
>conquering land that used to be Roman doesn't make you Rome, hence why Odoacer was never made emperor
>t*rks still struggle with this simple concept

>>2523788
>durko german internet meltdown
>killing anyone

>>2523504
There is a clear line of succession between Rome and Byzantium. Literally no one who's studied the subject denies this except for a few /his/ contrarian edgelords

who are these byzaboos on the internet anyway?
just some losers who live in the balkans right?

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>>2522594
>>2522612
>be American
>learn Japanese to watch anime
>become Japanese because you can speak their language

>>2524102
>>2523992
>>2523788
>>2523533
>>2522598
>>2522584
>>2522556
>>2522436
>>2522064
>>2522004
>>2521992
>>2521994
>>2521884
>>2521713
>>2521682
>>2521679
>>2521678
>>2521676
>>2521661
>>2521651
>>2521627
>>2521582
>>2521570
>>2521567
>>2521561
>>2521535
>>2521538
>>2521527
>>2521519
>>2521511
t. Mehmet

>>2521494
>>2521493
>>2521488
>>2521486
>>2521485
>>2521482
>>2521472
>>2521453
>>2521448
>>2521442
>>2521436
>>2521434
>>2521418
>>2521415
>>2521374
>>2521308
>t just because I think the later Roman Empire (Byzantium) was interesting that I hate every other period of Rome's existence? Are you autistic? People admire the Byzantines because they were able to maintain the institution of the Roman Empire through so much adversity. People always cheer for the underdog you autistic nigger
>>2521301
>>2521277
>>2521268
>>2521266
>>2521263
>>2521256
>>2521249
>>2521246
>>2521234
>He doesn't know the Western empire transferred its capital from Rome 200 years before the West fell
>Idiot
>>2521233
>>2521228
>>2521214
t. Hans

>>2525072
Lol what de fug happened here?

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>>2525072

>>2521266
>>2521214
I don't get these "hurr durr byzaboos are Greek larpers!!" - the Byzantine Empire is simply the modern term to differentiate when the Eastern Roman Empire transitioned from the late antiquity to the early middle ages. They had to transition with the times or face annihilation - the spirit of which Rome was made great in the first place.
>>2521218
this, quite simply.
>>2521257
but it was the Roman empire, it's capital was moved because Rome was in a shit location to administrate the west effectively

>>2522624
Byzantium is a modern term for when the Eastern Roman Empire transitioned from the antiquity to the medieval. It makes it no less Roman.
>also no point in using Latin when nobody speaks it in your provinces
>imperial administration vastly more in touch with the people than feudal lords, hence the need to use a not dead language

The Roman Empire ended in 285 when it was divided into two states.

Byzantium was the Eastern Roman Empire, not the Roman Empire.

>>2525201
i think Roman Empire ends with the death of Theodosius I. After that it's just WRE and ERE

>>2522480
Eastern roman empire was exclusively roman at least up until the middle of Heraclius' Reign because even legions such as Lgio V Macedonica were stationed through out the empire(in aegyptus while the muslim conquests began in 630s).there is no such thing as a byzantine mpire starting with the Transalatio Imperii in 330,or with Theodosius I or even with Odoacer,Julius Nepos and Zeno.Persians,Goths,Latin speaking inhabitants of Italy,Romans who stayed on western fallen territory,persians,arabs all the way to the 8th century called them romans.Aemilia Romagna Region in italy comprised of the little land which the roman government possesed with the form of exarchate in italy from 560s until the middle of 8th century.The weakening of the empire,the loss of eastern territories and the exarchate of africa and ravenna sure made them a rump state until the macedonian restoration in 9th-10th centuries.but the same things happened, just very quickly,in WRE too during the 5th century.
Also,only when the projection of power of the ERE was diminished in the italian peninsula,only then rose the argument of frankish patricians and emperors,and then with the dissolution of the state of charlemagne there was another empire-state feudilized in way too much levels to be considered a successor to roman politics to take the mantle of romaness.
In early 11th century the ere hold all the territories in balkans and Anatolia as it did in Anastasius' or Zeno's or early justinian's Time.syria,palestine and egypt were lost but 600 years 400 years after still ''byzantines'' and their allies and enemies were facing the status quo that was met only in the late antiquity.
If the invasion of Seljuks and the loss of central anatolia didnt happen maybe even southern italy would be under roman rule and the norman conquest would be limited.

>>2525201
>it was divided into two states.

This actually never happened. It's a common misconception on this board.

"Rome" was never formally divided at any point. Two emperors reigned and never considered their territories to be distinct states, it just happened to be administratively burdensome to force your legal pronouncements to be enforced in the other part of the empire. There weren't two Roman Empires. It was one empire, two emperors.

To undermine the point even further, if you want to argue about there being to two separate states, then because Odoacer seized the WRE and handed back to the "symbols of state" such as the imperial diadem to the emperor in Constantinople saying that one emperor was enough for the empire, the empire was formally reunited in 476 AD.

The entire thing is academic anyway. Antiquity didn't have formally existing nation-states in the modern sense.

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When the Justinian dynasty was overthrown. 1355 years of Roman civilization. They had a good run. People like to overextend it into the Fall of Constantinople just because they want it to reach the meme two millennia mark.

>>2523504
>You don't consider the Kingdom of England to have started in 1066 do you?

But it literally did.

>>2521180
Why is his face so contempting?

>>2521299
Romans would have never gone through with steampower, why would you want or need labor saving devices when your economy is based upon slave labor?

The fall of the WRE was a good thing, it allowed for feudalism to take place and for an efficient division of labor along with sensible division of labor along with non-retarded economic policy.

ROME BTFO

>>2521345
Feudalism was superior to w/e the romans where doing desu. You think it's bad because you're oh so enlightened dontcha?

>>2525364

No it didn't. What crown do you think Edward the Confessor promised to Duke William in the first place? England was a young kingdom in 1066, but not a new one.

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>>2526158
>feudalism
>efficient
>sensible
>non-retarded

>>2526212
Bow down to you Norman overlord and pay your doomsday taxes. Otherwise I will have to harrow you like I harrowed the North of England tbhqhwyf

>>2526158
Czar Nicholas pls go.

>>2526212
>>2526238
More seriously though if you study the conditions leading up to the collapse of the WRE feudalism made perfect sense. The inflation and harsh tax rates served little purpose as the administration of the WRE could no longer offer anything to outlying provinces. It made much more sense to pay taxes to the G*rmanic tribes and let them protect you.

If Rome had its way it would have ended up like China where it exists in a perpetual state of collapse and Rising every 100 years in a dog eat dog sort of World due to the subdivision of land. You do know that Romans had basically technologically stagnated after enslaving the Greeks and plundering them for all they were worth right?

Regionalism vs. Globalism ect ect

>>2525201
>Rhodesia ended when North and South Rhodesia were drawn up
absolute

>>2526239
>3rd rome

Tbh I'd like to see Putin become a modern Caesar and retake Constantinople.

>>2526260
Erdogan is more likely to try reforming the Ottoman empire than Putin taking Istanbul

>>2526262
>literal steppe people who became Islamic
>Erdogan reforming like Atuark
>Erdogan doing anything more than trying to hang on desperately at this point

Just wait for the collapse of the West, mark my words. Eventually the Governments of the World will decide to fix their fake economies with a war.

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>this entire fucking thread
Mods should just ban these fucking threads because they get infested by butthurt western europeans who can't deal with the fact that a bunch of Greeks carried on Rome's legacy while their ancestors were being buttraped by G*rmanic barbarians

>>2526288
desu the g*rmanics actually improved the WRE. Even the ERE couldn't escape the g*ermanics in the end

>>2526294
>the g*rmanics actually improved the WRE
like how refugees improved Sweden

Let's get this straight, Roman society fell when the Byzantine empire fell, while the Byzantine spoke Greek more than Latin they observed Roman laws and customs

>>2526298
No, low iq vs. high iq.

Agriculture makes you weak and stupid. G*rmanics were nothing like ficki ficki africans and "syrians". They do not actually provide benefits to those who are sick of the government they live under. They do not offer a good alternative.

I don't see Africa and MENA continuing the legacy of the West onward... China and north east Asia on the other hand? Well they're certainly not isolationist any more.

>>2521180
When the loathsome bastard Caracalla passed laws granting all peoples in Rome citizenship and allowed racial mixing.

>>2526322
>agriculture makes you weak and stupid

I bet you're a keto retard too, enjoy your dietary cult.

>>2525364
No. The kingdom of England has existed since at least the year 900. Arguably it has existed since Alfred the Great with the destruction or subjugation of all of the English petty kingdoms bar Wessex, which proceeded to liberate the rest of what is now England.

>>2526336
No, it's fucking common sense. I don't have a particular aversion to carbs. But eating them excursively is pretty dumb desu

There is a noticeable difference between people whose ancestors subsisted on agriculture and those who have not. Take that as you will.

>>2526365
>muh dietary cult is jussss common sense that means I need no arguments lol

Atkins retards are all the same drooling monkeys.

>m-m-muh GLYCEMIA

Go jump into a field of wheat and choke to death.

>>2526372
You sound really worked up about this dude, I hadn't heard of him before but I think I'll check him out with a glowing recommendation like that.

Eating grain all the time being bad for you is common sense. Do dogs need dentists like humans do? To the point where you'll get teeth rot and die?

>>2521221
they have autism

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>>2521221
We only like the Republic around here tbqh.

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>>2526322
>Agriculture makes you weak and stupid

Are you implying northern Europeans didn't have agriculture?

Justinian was the last Roman Emperor. Heraclius was the first Byzantine Emperor. Everything inbetween was just a long extended transition.

Whoever the last one to call himself Princeps is. The rest fancied themselves some kind of Oriental despots.

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ITT: butthurt Latins, jealous that all they had was a larping Germanic Federation and old men who extorted money out of gullible illiterates to tie them to Rome.

>>2521180
it never ended, merely changed form

>>2526322
Germanic area did had agriculture retard

>>2526294
Go back to Barbaricum

>>2525848
He's >>2526158
smug. He did just retake Italia, afterall

>Holy
>Roman
>Empire

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>>2527231
Good thing the 'HRE' had no real control over the Italian city-states and they could do whatever they wanted then.

>>2526322
>the thing that allows for people to spend time not trying to survive all day and actually advance your society makes you weak and stupid
you're retarded