Would you say its unethical to eat an animal you havent killed

>>2512497
>Would you say its unethical to eat an animal you havent killed yourself?
No.

>>2512497
why do I need to show respect? also, in order to avoid trivializing other complex creatures into nothing but a tasty afterthought, should I shoot my own porn too?

>>2512497
It's unethical if ethical alternatives like fruits and vegetables exist anon. Animals are sentient just like humans, both have a heart, brain (central nervous system) and feel pain. Thus, if killing animals is alright, then so should killing humans, since they're both sentient.

I can only eat chicken and fish and even then only rarely.
The idea of eating red meat sickens me.

Not gonna lie a rotisserie chicken and an actual real live chicken are two completely separate concepts in my brain. It's kind of creepy how far removed we are from the actual animals we eat.

>>2512510
>should I shoot my own porn too

Watching pornography is self-cucking. You're watching another man have sex with a girl you would want to fuck.

Would you pay to watch a live sex show?

Try no fap

>>2512530
Go vegan anon

>>2512521
humans live in a community of other humans and have special privileges as members of that group. it has nothing to do with sentience, only what is convenient. Killing my neighbor might be nice, but it's far from convenient. Nor is killing my neighbor's cat convenient, since in a way it has joined the community

>>2512533
solo or lesbian is superior my man

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>>2512497
It certainly desenitizes people from where their life really comes from.
I have followed this for a while now, I really don't like eating plants I didn't know alive.
People think everything is great because they think meat comes from the supermarket, they don't know that the world that stocks their shelfs is running out of places to exploit. It's a sociological-ecological mismatch, and all signs point to human extinction along with most complex living systems and their organisms. buying hell with heaven 7-11 Armageddon, no snacks where we're heading

>>2512555
>you can get protein from plants
true, but it is much harder to get all the various proteins you need from plants. it's much easier, and cheaper to simply eat meat. there's a reason even the poor in India aren't strictly vegetarian

I wouldn't even say it's ethical to eat an animal you kill.
And here is where I get called a faggot

Just when I had forgotten that Vegans were cunts.

>>2512555
Thanks anon, I saved this pic

>>2512564
the ecological disaster comes from what meat we do eat and the levels that we eat it at. if we could convince people to eat less beaf and eat insects instead we would be perfectly fine

>>2512555
>>2512590

>Animals are the same as people.

>Eating your own species is the same as eating others

>>2512618
*beef

>>2512608
And you're ignorant?

>>2512521
>Thus, if killing animals is alright, then so should killing humans, since they're both sentient.

This rationale is only valid if you think "sentience" is the sole reason we don't kill or eat other humans.

>>2512538
I probably should just embrace it.
I have heard though that veganism is a Pandora's box of sorts that can lead to homosexuality and transgenderism.

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>>2512608
No need to be rude

>>2512550
we're not talking about convenience. We're talking about moral actions and searching for a valid reason for which aimals are not moral sujbects

>>2512645
You're confusing veganism with drinking from pet bottles.

>>2512640
>>2512629
>>2512590
>>2512555
these seriously use the same level of argumentation and strawmanning of the creationist comics

>>2512621
It's trying to point out a appeal to nature fallacy. In the first pic, the guy said its alright because lions do it. Well, if it's fine if lions do it, the other guy killed his kids and fucked his wife, because that's also what lions do. So the point is, just because lions eat meat, that doesn't mean we should and have to, as well. Appeal to nature fallacy.

>>2512555
He did nothing wrong to be honest

>>2512648
that's exactly what I'm saying: there is no objective morality. Morality is a social tool for a community of humans and doesn't have a universal application

>>2512584
>completely disregarding the moral dilemma

>>2512653
Ahhhhhhhhh I do that too!
Just take my meat and potatoes already!

>>2512655
NO they don't and you know it

>>2512555
fuck off greg

>>2512602
It's funny, the conservatives in India think that eating meat is fucked up and the liberals think you're a pussy for not eating meat. But in America the liberals think eating meat is fucked up and the conservatives think you're a pussy for not eating it. Literally the only reason why people think you're a pussy is because they grew up in a society that has been eating meat for millennia and the men have been the ones who go out and kill the animals/take care of the livestock. In the beginning this barbarism was done out of necessity, but now that is hardly the case. In India they haven't had to eat meat for thousands of years, maybe forever, because of the fact that India is so fertile and basically all year round. I would say it's been a while since we haven't needed animals to live in the West, but things like this take a long time, especially when a society has been used to eating meat for such a long time.

You're not a pussy, you've just grown up in an unethical society. At least relative to animals. Hell, Christians don't even think animals have souls.

>>2512674
yeah, I ignored the subjective part and went to the only real argument in it. vegetarianism is simply inconvenient for everyone and not possible for the poor

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>>2512655
They're just poking fun on how some people argue regarding why they eat meat and react to vegans since eating is a very personal thing for a lot of people.

>>2512694
>Inconvenient for poor
You can buy more vegetables for 5 bucks than meat and you'll be healthier off

>>2512694
>vegetarianism is simply inconvenient for everyone and not possible for the poor
Sorry about you being a poor person in Japan. For your average poor westerner this isn't the case.

>>2512674
Its only moral if you ascribe some inherent value to the life of the animal you are eating. I love my dog but I understand in some parts of the world they eat dogs and a dog is in no way equal to a human

>>2512703
If you ascribe to the idea animals have the right not to be killed for food/goods. than yes using tires with beef parts is just as bad as eating a steak

>>2512723
You don't have to be equal to someone or something to not be a dick to them.

>>2512712
getting the neccisary calories and proteins without meat is actually more expensive

>>2512726
No actually its not, you need tires for your car. You dont need steak as there are better alternatives

>>2512694
If you wan't to hear real arguments, then the meat industry is the single most damaging one to the environment, not only producing an enormous ammount of nocive gas, but being a major cause for deforesting.
The single best thing you can do for the environment is not reciclying or saving water, but modifying your diet.

>>2512730
That's another false claim

>>2512618
No, it has to do with us trying to supercede socio-ecological systems with industry. People would not eat so much beef if it was raised in agro-ecological systems instead of industrial farms.
Even the way we produce vegetables, large scale mono-culture is ecologically devastating and has lead to massive losses in soil fertility, habitat, and both wild and agricultural biodiversty.
Europes wheat is threatened by rust right now because the free market decided that 1 species of plant was the most economical way to do things.
Commercial society needs to go. Which would be good riddance because it is a shit hole. Our subservience to markets has caused us to vastly exceed our means while at the same time greatly underaccomplish our potential. Potential we no longer have, the best potential we have got now is surviving with the knowlege of civilization in tact.

>>2512726
The point of the comic is because he can't avoid using tires, he may as well eat bacon.

That's like saying that since you once slandered someone online you may as well rob a bank since you're already doing criminal activities.

>>2512723
Of course, a dog has countless differences with a human, but there's no reason whatsoever you should evaluate a dog is any less of a morally considerable being than a human. I recommend this article if you want to read I guess
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moral-animal/

>>2512734
I've already addressed this. the issue isn't meat itself, the issue is what we eat and how much of it we eat. we eat way too much beef than is even neccisary for us to get the protein we need. if we ate less beef and started eating insects we would be able to eat meat without harming the evironment.

>>2512761
>Eating insects

Fucking trolls

>>2512730
Dried soya beans is the cheapest source of protein you can get. And if you're talking about pure calories then it's wheat and rapeseed oil.

>>2512768
not trolling at all. insects are a good source of protein that don't require the same amount of resources as cows. they're commonly eaten outside of the West

>>2512761
It's not about harming the environment it's about putting a helpless animal who experiences pain inside of a cage all its life and then cutting it short just so that people can taste something "good." No one wants to die. No one wants to feel pain.

>>2512778
Let's just stick to not eating anything that walks and just eat plants

>>2512771
and they don't have all the amino acids that you need. you have to eat a variety of plants in order to match up with the proteins you need

>>2512794
Aww man, you gotta eat a variety of plants. boo hoo. go cry in a corner

i just like big bacon cheeseburgers sorry dude

>>2512761
Yeah, and are you even trying?

>>2512788
why? I feel no reason to adopt your moral position. I only stick to my own moral position because it's how I'm wired thanks to my environment. I will only stop eating meat if there is an objective reason not to that that outweighs the pleasure I get from it, not your personal feelings

>>2512761
That wrong tho.
>>2512744

>>2512771
Paying for food is unethical, just like paying for anything else, and just plain retarded, shits free yo. go plant some seeds on someone else's "property" if you don't have the privilege to freely interact with the world you came from.
Commercial society doesn't work, and will never work, so do yourselves a favor and get out while you still have the chance.

>>2512794
you ruined the plans of all those vegans that wanted to exclusively subsist on dried soya beans

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>>2512815
>Paying for food is unethical

>>2512809
Did you even read the objective reasoning above? How does your rectum smell anon?

>>2512815
Okay it works.
It just works in a ways that is fundementaly unsustainible And at odds with complex life on earth.

>>2512831
That means it doesn't work, retard

>>2512824
Yeah, hearing that your entire life has been lived using values that are just plain retarded is hard for most people to accept.
U can take t red pee or the blu poo,
U have no choice in which one you decide to take

>>2512839
But it works very well.
It's just a little malfunction.
It not working would imply that it has the possibility of being fixed.

>>2512863
Eating meat is bad.
/thread

>>2512621
We as humans already to a lot of things to each other which is worse than that

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Most of the arguments in this thread have circulated about veganism and the meat/dairy/eggs production in large scale farms.
What about free range alternatives? Let's say I inherit a dairy cow and supply it with everything neccesary - freedom of movement (to a certain extent, ofc), food, drink and love. Since dairy cows require to be milked regularly, what am I supposed to do with the milk? If I discard it, one could argue that the milk isn't used at all (except by microorganisms or bacteria), so it would be the in the bests interests of everyone that I consume the milk (provided that there are no animals to feed the milk to).
Vegans might pull the physiological arguments for this but i am wondering whether it would be ethical for me to consume the milk.

This is an autistic idiotic thread.

Earth is going to be destroyed in a century or two when AI complexes come up with a plane for extra-solar expansion and realize the materials are a lot cheaper to harvest in zero gravity.

The pretension to being a "moral" being in these times is LARP faggotry of the worst kind.

>>2513176
Either bait or you don't know how mammals work. They don't spontaneous start producing milk out of nowhere.

>>2513212
>Complaining about a subject within the humanities while on a humanities
No anon, you're the autism.

>>2513245
http://biology.stackexchange.com/questions/1093/do-cows-produce-milk-excessively

>>2512555
You know, plants are sentient beings as well.

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>>2513307
Reacting to stimuli isn't the same as being sentient.

>>2513287
Look at that, a link telling you mammals don't start producing milk out of nowhere.

>>2512497
Who says it's ethical to eat an animal you have killed yourself?

>>2513260

The autism is thinking that one has fashioned a diamond of eternity when evolving AI complexes will be in a far better position to create far more sensible and beautiful moralities.

Better intelligence is the prerequisite for better morality. Stupidity leads to tragedy.

A sensible man in these days should let loose the burden of moral megalomania where all of the world-systems are butchered into the laxity of human moral calculation.

>>2513355
Hume pls

>>2512497
>would you say it is unethical to sit on a chair you have not made yourself?
>I think it is. It shows zero respect for the tree cut down to make it, and thus zero respect to nature itself. It also dehumanises the craftsman who made it by making all his hard work and ingenuity nothing more than a comfy feeling for your ass.
Specialisation of labour was a turning point in our history that actually allowed us to become more than just animals.

>>2512590
>as a vegan, it is okay to compare people to animals for the sake of argument, like I do here >>2512555
>non-vegans comparing people to animals is fallacious and fucking stupid though because my only forms of defense is strawmen comics and I refuse to let them take away my right to bear arms

>>2512497
It's food motherfucker.

>>2512504
/thread

If you were able, would you kill a leopard that was attacking you?

If you were able would you kill a human that was attacking you?

Therefore it is humans' duty to eat meat.

>>2512730
> putting a price on sentient life

You are literally worse than Hitler.

>>2512733
You don't need tires for your car, you can walk you lazy faggot.

>>2512497
>Would you say its [SIC] unethical to eat an animal you havent [SIC] killed yourself?

1. "ETHICAL", AND "UNETHICAL", ARE NOT SYNONYMOUS WITH "BENEVOLENT", AND "MALEVOLENT", RESPECTIVELY.

YOU MEAN "MALEVOLENT", NOT "UNETHICAL".

2. THAT QUESTION IS IRRELEVANT; THE RADICAL QUESTION IS: "IS IT MALEVOLENT TO KILL ANIMALS FOR SUSTENANCE?"

THE ANSWER IS: YES.

>>2513905
>You are literally worse than Hitler.
That's not really saying much at all.

>>2513905

ADOLF HITLER WAS A VEGAN, MORON.

>>2512564
This idiot again

>>2513905
you're the one putting a specific value on sentience

Another episode of the caps lock tripfag tries to kill the thread

>>2513307
But they aren't just reacting to stimuli. You got to look at the pragmatics here
They are periceving/interpreting meaning from signs from their external environment through biophysical/chemical mechanisms. how is this not subjective sensation? then they go on to act accordingly to signs, via vascular networks that behave just like simple neurosystems, it's biosemiosis and all life with cells partakes in this kind of minded behavior.
Even DNA /RNA have minds, I'm not sure if they are sentient however.
>>2513968
DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMM

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>>2512497
>Would you say its unethical to eat a vegetable you havent cultivated, harvested and killed yourself?
>I think it is. It shows zero respect and reduces a complex creature to little more than a tasty afterthought.

>>2512497
no
would you say its unethical to use a tool you did'nt make yourself? from your logic it would reduce the hard work and ingenuity put into its creation to little more than a convenient afterthought

>>2512555
>implying I wouldn't eat a human
On a more interesting note though, I remember reading about certain Polynesian tribes that ate people up till the 1930-40s they said people tasted like pork actually, as we're rather fatty. With the obesity epidemic people would probably have a lot more crackling though.

>>2514921
I somewhat agree with that statement.
Buying anything except for land, resources and labour to be gained and used ethically, is completely unethical.
Buying food is especially unethical.
And store bought vegetables are usually not even that complex, usually grown from a monoculture, 1 species of vegetable and the soil/pollinator diversity is probably dismal. Not to mention you are paying for the destruction of ecological systems, and any pragmatist would consider that self-destruction and a crime against life.

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I think vegetarianism should be encouraged but we should accept that we unfortunately do have natural cravings for meat and that essentially our only rational justification for killing creatures that mind their own business is that it's an occurrence of nature. Doesn't mean we can't try to do better where possible. And those animals that we do slaughter to meet our natural desires should be handled in the most painless and reverent ways possible, since slaughterhouse cruelty is common and beyond comprehension for any of us.

>>2515280
I've seen slaughter house crulity first hand, death is often a painful fear experience.
My beef is the feedlots that are raised I , animals living as fucking machines, completely unnatural just let a chicken peck around the grass for insects and seeds and sprouts and supplement its diet, raise a small number off cattle in a natural planted rotational pasture crop.
Animals shouldn't be denied the right
Function as animals.
The detriment to ecology isn't pain it is anguish, and that is why I think buying food is completely unethical.
I anguish now but I my have a hard time empathizing with those in free future who are first to deal with this irony of the causal effects of their actions.

>>2515178
So again, you're saying that specialisation of labour, the very thing that let us build civilisations, culture, and become a uniquely self-aware species, is unethical?
Ethics wouldn't even be a thing for idiots like you to ponder had it not been for those breakthroughs.

>>2512497

Is that a boar or a feral hog?

>>2512497
>kill a cow
->have to butcher it and save 98% of carcass as not to waste it
>wife wants a steak, have to get her to kill her own cow
Etc etc
It's retard

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>>2512621

this kills the strawman argument

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>>2515840
deer.

>>2512533
>watching porn is self-cucking

Just how fucking insecure do you have to be to arrive to that kind of conclusion?

>>2512533

I'm worried that the rest of your generation will turn out to be as stupid as you

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>>2513897
kek
where do you live where hoards of cows and pigs attacking you are a common problem, to the point you have to kill them in self-defence?

At least it's better than "my ancestors ate meat so I should eat meat"

If I could I would build a combination of a chicken house and a fishing pond. I have literally no issue with killing chicken or fish myself.

>>2512497
Anon you literally always eat animals you didnt kill yourself you fucking retard.

>>2512555
Cannibalism means the area lacks any suitable meat source if you have to eat other humans just to stay alive. You dont eat humans as eating your own species is very self destructive.

>>2512590
Lions also kill any male that touchs their property.

>>2516099
Lions have property?

>>2512497
Is it unethical to eat tomatoes you didn't grow yourself?
>I think it is. It shows zero respect and reduces a complex creature to little more than a tasty afterthought.
It's dead it doesn't care.

>>2517039
>it's dead it doesn't care
so it's ethical to kill a human since afterwards it feels no pain and doesn't care?

>>2517081
humans have souls that survive the death of the body.

>>2517088
really makes me ponder
but what about the suffering during the mortal life that humans would endur should you kill them?

>>2517092
You should check to see whether or not they're in god's grace first.

Oh wait you can't.

>>2515647
https://youtu.be/-EOKEBKZxxo
I hold the key I blame the key made me defame the mold.
Yeah it's tragic that it is leading us to distinction.
Back in the 80s we were warned, we didn't listen.
We're all devo.
Buying things isn't ethical if the survival of some of the current complex life on earth is moral

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>>2517102
Extinction*
Lol

>>2517081
more like is it unethical to buy human meat from someone else who killed them? I see no problem t b h

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>>2515647
And btw I'm saying the industrial-commercial economy is unethical, along with property ownership which is even worse.
I'm all for markets in the mutualist since, but I'm not a fan of the labour theory of value, I'm a fan of currency being valued to represent the item it trades, and I'm in favor of using the earth/life sciences to allocate mutual aid pragmatically in order to have economic-sociological-ecological congruency.
No matter what, the way we do it now won't last and will take us all down with it if we don't move on to something better immediately, then it is still a crap shoot.

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>>2517252
Wrong picture

>>2517081
It isn't ethical to murder a human but you're correct that it doesn't feel anything after death.
The issue mainly comes down to sapience, if cows could articulate in a language understandable to humans their feelings regarding life and death people would be less willing to eat them, but they don't so we do.

>>2512497
no, but I do think that every person should kill a large mammal at least once in their life to know what it's like and how it feels. Could be hunting or just slaughtering a domesticated animal.

>>2515973
I meant that one hundred percent as a joke post. Look at it, it doesn't make sense, it was supposed to be funny.

I guess I failed
:(

>>2515896
Don't worry, they will be.

>>2512533
Fuck off /pol/

But I'm currently trying to fulfill my dream of becoming a body builder. Can i still eliminate meat?

>>2512655
>"not an argument"

>>2512807
I just like raping, torturing, and murdering people sorry dude but you gotta get in the van nothing more I can do

>>2512497
Why am I required to show some arbitrary standard of respect to food?

>>2512521
You haven't felt enough real, physical pain in your life.

>>2517612
No period but for the best meat Sam's hormones and all that shit that a fuck you up you should go hunting and kill your own meat. It's also great exercise for when you want to become a bodybuilder. The meet you by the grocery store comes from animals whose lives were from beginning to end filled with misery. They are fad diets that were created solely to increase their weight to yield more meat to sell at the market. That affects not only the texture, but the flavor of the meat.

But when you kill an animal that has been out in the wild and live their whole lives as they should eating their natural diet and exercising pretty much constantly that is good, and pure. And it tastes about 600 times better than the hormone genetically modified bred-to-be slaughtered shit you buy at the grocery store. in the wild it's probably just going to be eaten by something else anyway or hit by a car, plus it keeps the population down and help stop the spread of diseases that these disgusting animals carry.

>>2515280
>we should accept that we unfortunately do have natural cravings for meat

we can still enjoy the taste/feel of meat without killing animals
modern imitation meat is incredibly realistic, they have products that feel, taste, smell, and even bleed like meat(without relying on soy, too)

the main problem is the lack of demand/market which keeps them a niche and expensive industry(atleast more expensive then their flesh counterparts)

>>2512533
pornography does seem to be more harmful than good for you

but there's nothing wrong with masturbation, fag

>>2512533
>masturbating to porn
That's not the definition of self-cucking.

>>2512497
I believe it's hypocritical to eat an animal you wouldn't kill yourself.

Trust me, you think you couldn't kill a chicken, but if you spend any time with the smelly bastards, it gets real easy real quick. They're fucking tiny dinosaurs that will peck out the spine of a human toddler the second they get a chance. Chickens deserve everything bad that happens to them. They are demons.

Cows are sweethearts though and I don't eat them. Retarded, but sweet.

>>2512497
Specialized roles in society lead to higher culture and potentially less suffering. If everyone had to hunt for their own meat, society would decline and suffering would almost surely increase. Thus, allowing a specialized subset of workers in a society to acquire and butcher meat for everyone else is more ethical than forcing everyone to get their own. Reducing meat consumption could probably benefit society and environment within the society's territory though.

>>2519740
kill yourself pagan

>>2512497
Its food,you deluded fool

>>2512497
I would argue that it is unethical either way. I still do it though. I try not to do it as much. I still hope that at some point we'll be able to recreate something sufficiently meat-like that we won't have to kill any more.

>>2512497
Show that there is something like "respect" in the natural world.

Do you think a wolf respects a sheep?

>a complex creature

what did you mean by this ?

>>2512521
>Animals are sentient just like humans

Humans are animals.

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>>2515892
Ignore most people who are hammering the term "cuck" into their thesis.

>>2517081
Murder is considered ethical for the state when done in war.

>t.Stirner