>Jesus is fully man and fully god How the fuck does this work?

>>2497311
>Mother was human
>Father is God
>Son of Man, Son of God

Atheists no longer have operating intellects.

>>2497319
Logically this would mean he's 50% man and 50% god.

My question isn't "how can he be half-this half-that" my question is how can he possibly be fully-this and fully-that at the same time when both properties are totally mutually exclusive.

>>2497311

Because Jesus said he was man and referred to god as separate from him. But people really want to worship Jesus without breaking the rules of no other gods. How do ya fix that? The trinity. Three gods for the price of one!

>>2497327
christian ret-conning. they don't have real arguments, they'll try to get you caught up in fancy words and sophistry.

>Attempting to apply the mathematical concept of a percent to situation which doesn't apply.
>Reach contradiction
>Be surprised

How can the number 2 be both a Natural Number and and Rational Number at the same time? How can anything be 100% of two different things? Mathematicians btfo.

>>2497311
It doesn't.

In fact, Jesus never even said he was God in the three earliest gospels.

>>2497391
Rational and real numbers aren't mutually exclusive categories though, divinity and mortality are.

>>2497398
Not in the Christian conception. As God's death is the central moment in all of Christianity.

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>>2497311

Through the power of buttfucking.

>>2497414
>Not in the Christian conception
Of course.

The problem is this specific Christian Concept makes no sense.

>>2497458
But it completely makes sense.

If you can't understand it, perhaps you should git gud.

>>2497534
>100% god
>100% man
>Makes sense
hmmmmmm

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>>2497561
Git.
Gud.

>>2497569
>God and Man are mutually exclusive for something that is omnipotent and omniscient

The concept isn't wrong, you're just limited in understanding.

You're 100% human and 100% gay, and that doesn't even require any abstract brain power to know.

>>2497458
People are, to put it lightly, averse to dying.
If a "God" dies, what does it mean?

Does it mean he's not really a God at all or that you have an unresolved refusal to truly accept what death is all about?

>>2497587
>You're 100% human and 100% gay, and that doesn't even require any abstract brain power to know.
But being gay and human aren't mutually exclusive. As a matter of fact you could make the point that being gay is entirely dependent on being human.

But being 100% god and 100% man just makes no sense.
>but he's omnipotent
Yeah, and it still makes no sense.

>>2497589
>Does it mean he's not really a God at all or that you have an unresolved refusal to truly accept what death is all about?
What are you getting at?

>>2497311
It's a mystery.

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>>2497311
>How can anything possibly be 100% two different things?
quantum religion my man

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>>2497598
>being gay and human aren't mutually exclusive

>>2497311
It's called the hypostatic union, two natures united in one person. Go research the Council of Ephesus.

>>2497311
I can't explain it and no-one else here can. The christians will try and will fail, while the atheists will try to make it seem impossible because they can't come up with the answer either. I'd advise you to read up on medieval theological history if you want to get a comprehensive understanding of the theology of the matter.

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>>2497311
Why are you demanding magic make sense?

Do you do this in your vydia games?
Your movies?
Your anime?

Why do it for other people's religions?

Literally pic related.

(Also, don't make me bring out particle-wave duality.)

>>2497311
nice bait m8
>how can ice cream be 100% desert and 100% food at the same time!?
Stop making atheists look like retards.

>>2497598
>things can be two things at once
>but I refuse to acknowledge that for this situation

You keep saying it doesn't make sense (to you).
Prove your positive assertion, since you're so eager to repeat it.

Why can't Jesus be 100% God and 100% man?

I'll wait.

A Vandal magister with known Arian tendencies was holding a symposium in honour of Demophilus, a known schismatic.
"Before the toasts begin, you must get on your knees and worship God and accept that he was the most divine entity the ecumene has ever known, even greater than Christus whom he created!"

At this moment, a venerable Praepositus Limitis who had served on the frontiers for decades and understood the necessity of taming the Barbaricum and fully supported the creed promulgated by the great Constantinus rose from his couch and held up a crucifix.

"Who does this represent?"

The Rhenian cur smirked quite devilishly and smugly replied "the created child of an indivisible God"

"You miss the point. Jesus Christ our Dominus is of the same substance as God and thus equal to Him."

The heretic was visibly shaken, and dropped his wine krater and copy of Eusebius' Onomastikon. He stormed out of the banquet hall crying those laetus crocodile tears. The same tears Donatists and Priscillians cry for the "poor" (who today are so holy that saints vie to kiss their feet) as they flee Roman territory to the outrage-committing Bacaudae in Armorica. There is no doubt that at this point the "learned" Vandal wished he had studied the work of the Holy Apostles and become more than a ludicrous teacher of rhetoric. He wished so much that he had a spatha to disembowel himself with due to the shame but he had sold all the city's arms for Gaiseric's ransom pay!

The partygoers politely clapped and all ceased their apostasy that day and accepted Jesus as the true Son of God. An divine light suddenly shone into the room and blazed upon the bust of Augustine and the statue wept miraculously. The Nicene Creed was recited, and Jesus Monogenes himself descended and banished the barbarians to the hellish wastes beyond the limes.

The magister lost his tongue and was castrated the following day. He was exiled to Troesmis, far from from God's Light.

Praise Jesus Consubstantialis.

>>2497311
>>A file is readable and writable
>How the fuck does this work?

>How can anything possibly be 100% two different things?

>>2497662
>100% readable and writable?
>You must be mistaken, surely you mean it is 50% readable and 50% writable

>>2497635
>Why can't Jesus be 100% God and 100% man?
Because they're mutually exclusive properties.

It's like saying a car is 100% blue and 100% red. It cannot be 100% both, it could be any combination of blue and red that cumulatively add up to 100%, but it can't be 100% both at the same time.

Likewise "god" and "man" are both mutually exclusively properties.
>Ah but god is omnipotent therefore he could make it work
I hear you say.
But that's not an explanation. That's basically an admission that no matter how you swing it how this works will never make sense to human minds.

>>2497396
>In fact, Jesus never even said he was God in the three earliest gospels.

lmftfy

>In fact, Jesus never even said he was God in any of gospels.

Jesus pronounced his divinity by doing things the old testament said only God could do and claiming to be what only God could be.

>>2497675
>"god" and "man" are both mutually exclusively properties

On what basis?

>>2497672
No, you can read 100% of the file and write to 100% of the file.

Jesus can do 100% what God can and experiences 100% of what humans do.

>>2497662
>>2497632
I think, in this case, OP's complaint is that they are mutually exclusively things. Apples can be both Apples and Fruit, but they can't be Oranges.

But when half of the equation is magic, why bother criticizing it, or even defending it? It's God, a supposedly omnipotent, omniscient, and omni benign being - which is already self contradictory - if such an entity exists - he can do whatever the fuck he wants.

I mean we got guys walking on water, turning water to wine, turning sticks to snakes, and talking snakes in this story - and THIS is the point you wanna harp on?

>>2497675
>But that's not an explanation. That's basically an admission that no matter how you swing it how this works will never make sense to human minds.
What part of "unknowable" and "magic" do you not understand?

>>2497690
God is perfectly good and holds unlimited knowledge of everything.
Men are burdened by sin and can only hold limited understandings of the universe.

>>2497699
>I mean we got guys walking on water, turning water to wine, turning sticks to snakes, and talking snakes in this story - and THIS is the point you wanna harp on?
Yes.

Given infinite power over everything it makes sense that an entity could walk on water.
It doesn't make sense how such an entity could also make one thing be 100% two mutually exclusive things.

>>2497705
>>2497690
Also god is eternal whereas men are created by and subordinate to god.

>>2497327
Probably because deity status and human status aren't mutually exclusive. Obviously, he's a human because he's walking around like flesh and blood, was born from a human woman, and his DNA is probably completely non-unique when compared to other humans.

Yet his godhood nature is probably something intangible, perhaps an aura or something similar to a soul. Without knowing anything of how divines work, we're really just grasping at straws.

>>2497710
Infinite power would have to include the power to defy logic. Otherwise, it is by definition, not infinite, and Jesus may has well be a Xavier school mutant.

Man is God
The New Testament was written by Nietzsche all along

>>2497311
Stop trying to rationalize the irrational. We can't comprehend God fully, hence divine mysteries. Our brain is so limited in capacity.
Can you dig a hole in the sand and pour all the ocean into it?

>>2497705
Christ's Godhood came into full realisation once he was crucified. His human contract was fulfilled, and he returned to the Right Hand of The Father.

>>2497311
Fully Man = Fully God

The two are one in the same.

>>2497725
>hence divine mysteries.
Yes but that's a really unsatisfying answer that in no way puts my problems to rest. It just makes it seem like this religion is lying.

>Can you dig a hole in the sand and pour all the ocean into it?
No.

>>2497680
>Jesus pronounced his divinity by doing things the old testament said only God could do and claiming to be what only God could be.
Go on...

>>2497717
Well that, and folks don't tend to realize that the power to defy physics, is the power to defy logic. Physics merely being the consequential extension of causal logic.

Talking snakes and walking on water, are just as illogical as 100%+100%=100% or 1+1=3. (Hell, as is even a menorah burning for a few more days that it has fuel to do so.) The existence of magic makes any illogical situation possible.

>>2497672
that's not how you greentext, leddit-kun

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>>2497743
>Current logic systems aren't even complete enough to account for the concept of mathematics
>You claim without sarcasm or irony that this universes laws of physics were the only possible ones, extending in obvious ways from the principles of logic

I couldn't be more disgusted if I tried.

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>>2497734
>No.

Then why try to think we can understand God?

>Yes but that's a really unsatisfying answer that in no way puts my problems to rest. It just makes it seem like this religion is lying.

Talk with an Orthodox Priest or Hieromonk, it'll help as I'm just a layman.
Injecting legalism, rationalism, and trying to put God in a box, so to say, are hallmarks of Roman society that became inherent in Roman understanding, leading to Roman Catholicism vectoring away from Christianity in heresy. They tried to explain the unexplainable, take away the mystery in thr Divine.. key example is their doctrine of transubstantiation (saying the Eucharist is magic, like magnets).

>>2497753
Orthodox are heretics and idiots who no one believes because they think in a religion based on understanding God that God is incomprehensible.

Its like they've taken the willful ignorance of most American protestants, not as incidental stupidity, but as a metaphysical principle.

>>2497752
I'm not claiming our knowledge of physics is complete, or that another set cannot exist, but there is an infinite chain of causal relation. If you violate that chain at any point, logic goes out the window and is subject to change at any time.

Any level of magic defies logic. Yeah, you can have some super-tech that looks like magic by our standards, but that's not the Biblical claim. The claim is there is a being of infinite power and presence who can fuck with the rules at any time, and has several times in the past.

It is unreasonable to demand logic in a universe where such a being is in play, particularly in relation to the being itself.

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>>2497763
>assuming God is understandable when he's said he is not and that we disgust him

I reckon we'll understand after we experience life to the full

>>2497753
>Then why try to think we can understand God?
Because the existence of a god could only make the universe more comprehensible rather than less since that would imply everything has a teleological purpose, which is very intuitive to humans.

Rather the gaps in logic that the concept of such an entity presents, I would say, are indicative of the fact that "god" is an incomplete logical answer to the universe which is itself already pretty incomprehensible.

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>>2497763

>>2497769
>Assuming God isn't comprehensible in a religion where God writes sixty plus books trying to make sure Man understands Him
>>2497768
This entire model of the cosmos has implied a number of assumptions, none of which are taken for granted. Just going down the line

1. Nowhere does the Scripture claim the Deity's miracles are necessarily contrary to the rules of this cosmos. It only describes the strange phenomena, it doesn't attribute explanations.

2. If you are willing to believe that alternative physics are possible, then any attempt at calling something illogical purely because it violates a local physic is ridiculous.

3. Hard determinism is by no means definitely proven.

4. Causality itself is an empirical concept. We say that one event causes another because the two events are casually joined together, following each other consistently. Its entirely possible the true rules that govern existence involve a concept of casuality far more complicated then simple domino logic.

I want to point out that the above is NOT an argument FOR the existence of God, merely an argument AGAINST your argument for why such a thing would be impossible.

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>>2497787
We understand what he wants from us, as His creations.

It is human arrogance to assume we understand Him beyond that, as we can only understand Him through human perspectives
>protip: humans are imperfect and highly corruptable

>>2497794
It is most certainly not human arrogance, given we are commanded to understand God in numerous places.

The question isn't whether our understand is perfect or not, its whether any kind of understanding, even an approximate one, is possible through discursive reasoning.

The Christian perspective is yes, it is, which is why the religion has a long history of engagement with philosophy, argument over ideas and principles, complex ethical codes, and has as one of its more common weaknesses a fall into legalism or blind zeal.

The Christian Faith is an intellectual religion, not one based on esoteric rites meant to induce personal mystical experiences. Most of the rites and experiences that even people in the West take for granted [such as near-death experiences, ecstasies, and the like] have absolutely no grounding in Scripture. Most visions are completely droll, and if they have emotional content at all its the fear or awe of the man at what he is witnessing, not the sublime sweetness that the mystics partake in when they work themselves into a trance and reach mental states of which even the heathen are capable!

>>2497735
>forgives sins
>Pharisees sperg out saying only God can do that
>Jesus says that's the point

>>2497569
See
>>2497391
Again, just because you think Divinity cannot die, doesn't mean Christians are bound by this concept.

Simple. Man is capable of becoming God.
>t. Mormonism

>>2497589
>If a "God" dies, what does it mean?
In the Christian conception there is no real death besides Sin. The body suffers and fades, but the spirit is immortal and endures. Death is a but a change of state. God endured death, as one endures a painful pulling of teeth.

It is only your mind that death is some absolute finality which cannot be breached between the Divine and Mortal. And indeed, what kind of Omnipotent being cannot do something.

>>2497810
The fact that the activities and behaviors of Jesus Christ and the Bible writers is so concealed has always irked me.

>>2497829
In what respect are they concealed?

>>2497833
The things Jesus studied before he began his mission at 30

The practices of the Bible writers that lead them to divine inspiration

The editing of the Bible by men over the centuries

>>2497840
The answer to the first question is unknown, but it can be imagined he studied the same things any Hebrew of his age would have studied. He knew the Torah and the teachers and so on.

The last question is that it at least hasn't been altered since its initial writing, we have scrolls of much of the Old Testament dating back to the time of Christ, and most of the New Testament appears in its modern form around 100 AD, and no earlier scrolls contradict them. In short, the notion of a scriptural telephone game by medieval monks is completely unfounded.

The second question is amusingly boring. They did nothing. Absolutely nothing. People want to believe it was sorcery, or asceticism. They meditated, they practiced the kaballah, they entered the Prayer of Silence, they changed the ninety nine names of God, they did something that drew the Deity's attention, forced His hand, and made Him speak.

The answer is that God spoke to the people He wanted to speak to. Its entirely possible He chose the people He chose because of some quality they possessed, and didn't do so randomly, but if He did it was for some human quality, not because they practiced mysticism.

In Christianity most of the 'magic' is explained, and has relatively boring answers.

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>>2497787
If there are no causal relations we cannot only never understand God, but the universe as well, as our reasoning requires such relations to function.

But I'm not saying it makes him impossible. It maybe the impossible is a thing, and thus this ultimate unknowableness of all things is as well.

If you assume magic exists, it is pointless to complain as to how logic pertains to a magical being.

When, for instance, Superman turns back time by reversing the rotation of the world - yes, this does rather defy all logic - but so does Superman himself. You abandoned logic in the story well before you got to that point.

And similarly, when set again all the instances of magic and apparent violations of logic presented in the story before this point, all in a universe with an omnipotent god, this one is pretty moot.

>>2497763
>Orthodox are heretics
Nice argument. Wow. So tell me, how is the Church that's been around since Pentacost heretical, exactly?
>Implying Protestantism was before the Church in any way.

>>2497774
You're assuming we can comprehend everything. God exists, whether you choose to believe or not is up to you. It's arrogant to think can understand all of creation. Again, we cannot fit the entirety and infinite that is God in our limited brain capacity, just as all the ocean cannot fit in a hole in the beach.

>>2497857
I'm not saying there are no casual relations, I'm saying that your understanding of the relations is deeply flawed.

I recommend reading "The Ethics of Elfland" for an understanding of the concept I'm getting at, of the difference between the laws of physics and the laws of logic.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16769/16769-h/16769-h.htm#CHAPTER_IV_The_Ethics_of_Elfland
>>2497861
>Orthodoxy dates back to Pentecost

That's a really nice opinion you have there. Would be a shame if someone pointed out all your vaunted mysticism wasn't practiced by the apostles or mentioned in scripture at all.

>>2497822
>Mormonism.
Satan please go.

>>2497840
Fortunately we have the Book of Mormon, another testament of Jesus Christ, which only suffered through one translator. It serves to reinforce the biblical gospel.

What Christ studied before his ministry is an interesting question, but has two obvious answers: carpentry, and scripture. There are some interesting, possibly apocryphal, stories regarding a temple in western Tibet that depicts a saint named Isa who came from the west in wall paintings. Greco-buddhism and the Indo-Greek kingdom predated Christ and so it is possible he was somehow influenced and/or traveled to the east, just as Greek Pyrrho traveled with Alexander and studied with some manner of apparently sramanic tradition before returning to Greece and founding the skeptic school more than 300 years prior.

>>2497852
So your reckoning is Catholicism is the true way?

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>>2497311

https://youtu.be/l--pgx632fg

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>>2497868
>That's a really nice opinion you have there. Would be a shame if someone pointed out all your vaunted mysticism wasn't practiced by the apostles or mentioned in scripture at all.

>implying it's not in Scripture
Hmm... yes, because the Apostles weren't blessed by The Holy Trinity, never partook in Holy Communion, weren't ascestic, never fasted, never prayered, never lived their faith, never spread the word of God. Nope.
>vaunted mysticism
We aren't Gnostic, friend. Care to pinpoint what you mean?

>>2497875
I'm non-denominational, and my leanings could be described as vaguely protestant. The point I find most important, in any proposed Christian religion is that it is a rational one. When the atheists ask for proofs, we should be giving them. People who promote ignorant, blind faith, and muddy understandings of the oracles of God are my sworn enemies. Anyone who puts a line around our understanding and says "You can go no further" I view it as holy duty to cross immediately.

The word "Faith" originally didn't mean blind belief in the unknown, it meant belief in the unperceived, on the basis of evidence, argument, or a reliable testimony. The very way we use the word harkens back to this original meaning.

We use "Faithfulness" as a synonym for loyalty, we use the phrase "have faith" to indicate that we should continue holding to a known truth despite the current circumstances.

Telling someone to "have faith" when they just figured out the object of their faith is a lie isn't a noble sentiment, its a meaningless one, on par with telling someone to extend faithfulness to one who has just shown themselves utterly untrustworthy.

>>2497899
The Orthodox idea is that it through the practice of certain esoteric rites and meditations that one comes to "know God", and this is known through a kind of mystical intuition [which is really to say, muh feelings]. Many of the saints are said to have acquired visions or miracles by these means.

This idea is found nowhere in Scripture, where the truth is always revealed or substantiated by exoteric revelation, the testimony of witnesses, and solid argument.

>>2497901
>I'm non-denominational, and my leanings could be described as vaguely protestant. The point I find most important, in any proposed Christian religion is that it is a rational one

You are thoroughly Protestant, given alone you try to rationalize God with limited human understanding and legalism, the latter is something inherited through your Roman Catholic fathers.

>>2497861
>God exists
Obviously I don't accept this.

The thing I'm left wondering is why do you draw the line of "incomprehensible" at "god" rather than at "the universe".

>It's arrogant to think can understand all of creation
That's the exact opposite of my point. Which is that "god" is an incomplete attempt at doing that very thing.

>>2497921
And you are thoroughly Ignorant, which is to say, an orthodox.

>>2497909
You clearly don't know Orthodoxy. Further, where do you think the Holy Bible came from? Orthodoxy, Church Tradition, Apostolic Succession, and the divine guidance of the Holy Spirit. Really, go research the early Church Fathers and the early Church.
You're willfully, arrogantly ignorant of your own history if you're a Christian. Start with St. Justin Martyr., if you want.

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>>2497941
Im not that anon who you are arguing with but the argument from history is a really poor one once you start studying comparative religions and histriography of the ancient period in particular.

If you want a non heated example (one you dont have an emotional investment in) to explore the kind of problems you are making take a look at the development and divide between Therevada and Mayhana Buddhism.

>>2497327
>Logically this would mean he's 50% man and 50% god.
Except He was truly born of woman which makes Him fully man and He is truly eternal true God which makes Him fully man. We don't have a mixture of nature going on here.

>>2498052
Comparative religion. No other belief has God humbling Himself to become 100% man while being 100% God. Not one where God came flesh.

>>2498546
Are you the same anon I responded to? Nothing in my post directly or indirectly was making the argument that all religions are the same or that Christianity isnt unique.

>>2498469
>>2497327

I see the nature of your confusion

the first anon sees beeing 100% man as necessarily precluding being 100%.

The other anon doesnt and views the traits in a way like how a person can be 100% human and %100 English

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>>2497327
yikes.

>>2497391
i agree

>>2497311
i think it might have something to do with identity.

Jesus' identity was God's. But the realization was a human being.

pls let me know if there is a contradiction here

>>2498617
Why do you think Godhood and manhood are compatible and not exclusive categories?

>>2498708
Manhood is a physical thing

Godhood is a super-physical thing.

the identity of an object is not the object itself

>>2498717
Do you mean supra? What is the difference between a super physical thing and a non material thing? ie a concept or a category


>the identity of an object is not the object itself
Does this reasoning apply to God though?

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You see Islam is a lot simpler

>>2497311
>just turn your brain off and get on your knees
(for prayer, you sick shit)

>>2497327
Le mysterious ways bro

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>>2499193

Who says only for prayer?

>>2497333
more like 3 faces, one God.

>>2499295
Unfortunately that is modalism and just as heretical as claiming that God the Father preceded or is more powerful than God the Jesus

>>2497311
>>2497327

Cause the time god is father in heaven and son on earth for him are NOW. He is outside of time, hence ALL moments in our and his history are NOW for him. Both the time he was on earth (which he still IS through this) and the time he created the universe as eternal god, and the time he was spirit in my heart. That all to him is NOW.

So at the same time he is 100% God and 100% man.

Trinity works the same way.

Bible thumpers aren't logical creatures, their book says all of them are entitled to do high level wizardry as long as they carry the name, yet their absolute zero wizard power doesn't give them a hint.
HINT: Gnostics had it right.

>>2497319
Wouldn't it be son of a woman, son of a god?

>>2497311
>>2497327
Lets say someone was born to a poor homeless woman through virgin birth. Then that child later becomes a billioniare.

That person can claim he's both poor and rich at same time.

>>2499851
Nope, that's heresy

>>2497311
Doesn't make any sense desu, but that's not the only nonsensical dogma. The trinity doesn't make much sense either.