What is the purpose of prayer if God has already predetermined

Well what would the point of not praying be then?

>>2486894
It gives humans facing imminent tragedy something to occupy their minds with other than their incipient misery. Atheists love misery though so it's no great surprise they hate prayer so much.

>>2486961
>Family member gets sick
>Pray the sickness away instead of taking them to a hospital
>They die
>Lol god didn't want to save them atheists are miserable

Prayer is mostly about self reflection.

The Lord's Prayer is also said during it, which reminds you of asking God to forgive your debts, so that you in turn may also forgive other people's debts. So it's not about wishing on a star.

>>2487042
>I'm going to rewrite the definition of prayer so it doesn't trip the bullshit radars
I love the apologists with their fanfiction which contradicts dogma.

>>2487056

Yeah, but nobody cares about dogma. Christianity is mostly about doing, not talking. Dogma is for talkers, and nobody cares about talkers

>>2487068
Then you must be an anti established-religion gnostic who just believes in a creator then.

It was predetermined that you would pray to have God do things a certain way for you. Just because it was predestined doesn't mean that you shouldn't do it... This isn't determinism. You don't break out of Gods mold.

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>>2486894
>What is the purpose of prayer if God has already predetermined everything in His divine plan?


To begin, there are absolutely tons of forms of Christian prayer, to the point it is best defined as an application of the mind and heart towards union with God, whether this be petition, song, meditation, thanksgiving, contemplation, intercession (prayer on behalf of another), asking someone in Heaven to pray for you, or done with any formality or length. Their desire for God in the prayer does not need be explicit either.

We must not misunderstand prayer as “therapeutic" in the sense of motivating us to be righteous and aiding us in that righteous life, though it can be. At the same time we should not be thinking of prayer is a form of wish-fulfillment, as our God is unchanging in his will and, as all-knowing, knows what you need. Instead, Prayer IS a conforming of the heart towards God. Through this greater union we come to deserve what God has willed for us. In this sense, then, God is a practice for self-improvement and to deserve what God has eternally ordained. This is why it is traditionally seen as virtuous.

>believes in predestination/determinism
>consideres himself christian

kek, fucking protestant heretics

Prayer kind of makes sense, when you consider that christians see their god as their master or "lord". A lord is basically someone who rules over you, someone higher up in the hierarchy. So it makes sense that if you want something to happen, you would appeal to your lord for it.

As a contrast in pagan european religion a god wouldn't be a lord but rather a mystical, eternal force that is always active, and can either help you or work against you, depending on that particular gods will. In that light, it makes sense to make offerings to the gods because if someone makes you an offering, then you owe him a favor back.
So the pagan god is seen as a really strong guy with no affiliation, whom you want to keep friends with through offerings and such. The christian sees his god as someone who rules over him and who causes everything in his life, so all the christian can do is pray because he is subservient to his god.

>>2486894
You are referring to Calvinism, not biblical Christianity

>>2486994
>family can't afford to take gravely ill family member to hospital for treatment
>resort to traditional psychological support mechanism to prevent everyone from sinking into despair and therefor increasing the odds the patient will find the strength to heal themselves
>sick person dies anyway as they would probably have done even if they went to the hospital
>fedora's on the internet mock the family for it's suffering

As I said, atheists love misery.

>>2487331
>conflates predestination and determinism
>considers himself intelligent

>>2486894

What is the purpose of a relationship without any communication between the two parties involved?

>>2487342

Luther taught predestination as well.

>>2487294
And here we have the heathen who thinks he is heard because of his many words, and his lip service.

Poor, poor heathen, knowing that you have no relationship with the living God, but hoping your church can solve that for you.

You are truly to be pitied as there are none so blind as those who will not see, and none so lost as those who think they are already saved.

>>2487461
Luther, the catholic friar, was wrong on something?

Why, hush my mouth.

It's to devolope faith. It's not about wishing for a result, that's the biggest misconception. The idea is to ask for guidance in order to fixate your mind on being open to his teachings.

>>2487469
Nope. Faith increases by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Hear the word, have your faith increased. (Because faith is believing what you have not seen, and by hearing, you do not see).

>>2487398
>family can't afford to take gravely ill family member to hospital for treatment

Jeez, where is this, Pakistan?

>>2486894
Mention free will vs determinism and religious cunts will go apeshit.

>>2487485
Pakistan actually has one of the best healthcare systems in the world.

>>2487510
That's far more a problem for pop scientists.

God says "choose", so you can choose.

>>2487515
Yeah, and three or four chapter there's another verse announcing that everything happens according to God's plan. Other texts will say shit such as 'Your husand died because it was a test for you from god' implying that God plans everything, whereas other texts will say 'you get judged for your sins since you committed them at will'.

Free will and determinism are literally the reason I stopped being a muslim

>>2487526
>Free will and determinism are literally the reason I stopped being a muslim
There is no determinism in islam, dipshit

>>2487526
also, what happens to YOU is planned by GOD

and what YOU DO is planned by YOURSELF

>>2487557
Shut the fuck up, anon. Don't talk about shit you don't know or know by second hand wiki pages.

>>2487565
i'm a muslim, dipshit

>>2487563
What happens to you is a result of all what happened to you since you came out of your momma's womb, your dna has a role to play as well. Besides that, external factors intervene too.

You can go one way or another. Either there is a free will or there isn't. Religion claims both at once.

>>2487572
Good muslim as well, I can see.

>>2487056
>every religious opinion that doesn't conform to my shallow understanding of religious dogma is mental gymnastics
Gotta love fedoras. They sure like to pretend they know what they hate.

>>2487573
>. Religion claims both at once.

No,
you know nothing of the "ibtila' " (testing)

basically allah gives you bad news (such as a family member dying, or losing your job) and waits to see if you turn to him or leave him, testing your faith

>>2487584
>"al iman bi l qadar khayrih wa charrih"
>"wa amma man outiya al kitab ... "

Now I haven't practiced islam in two or three years and I still have this shit remembered by heart.

Look, (predetermined) fate is a cornerstone of islam, it's literally one of the six arkanes of belief. At the same time, islam assures us that people will be judged for their sins and rewarded for their virtues.

All in all, bro, islam is a rip off of christianity and thereby judaism. So it has the same fundamental inconsistencies.

>>2487584
>allah kills you father to test your faith

So your father is just a pawn given a soul and life and undergoing a lifetime just so he would die as a test to you? Even typing it is fucking cringeworthy, let alone believing it and defending it. Shit like this is literally a coping machanism. You say that X's death is just a test by god to cope with the loss.

>>2487584

Yeah, no. The Koran is very explicit that Allah himself "hardens the hearts" of the unbelievers, keeping them from becoming Muslims and being saved, so that he can enjoy burning them in fire forever.

>>2487613
But predestination is not the same thing as determinism. You are a bad Muslim

>>2487822
I know.

>>2487822

Islam also teaches determinism, tho. Or rather, it teaches "occasionalism", which is the doctrine that there is no such thing as "natural laws", everything that happens does so thru the direct will of Allah alone. And since Allah is omniscient, this means everything is determined, just by Allah, not by natural laws.

>>2487086
But if it's predestined, then whether I pray or not has no impact on the outcome.

Good question

>>2487398
I'm glad you realized American Christianity is just another tool used by corporate fuckheads to control and distract from the real problems.

>>2487578
>heh all fedorah's are dumb edgy idiots.
>Christcucks obey their oi vey god.

>>2487463
Good trolling, honestly. But sinful despite.

>>2487526

"Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus" by Nabeel Qureshi.

>>2488284
You know better than I that you have no relationship with the living God.

You yearn for one.

You don't have one. You just have your church, and it's all you're ever going to have, unless you repent, and are saved.

>>2486894
Self-hypnosis.

He can change the plan you idiot.

>>2487637
>To cope with loss
What's the problem here?

>>2486894
What makes you think events in the past weren't set in motion to answer said prayer?

>>2488317
Baptists make me wonder if the words "Non Angli sed Angeli" were a mistake.

>>2486919

frees up my hands to build a device that will solve my problems or maybe make a sandwich

>>2486894
Because it was God's plan that you prayed.

>>2486894
1. God has not predetermined everything.
2. Prayer is meant to be conversational, penitent, and conductive to communion with the deity.
3. Praying for things is mean, base, and sinful on most occasions.

>>2487484
>Hear the word, have your faith increased.
And then can I cast high-level miracles???

>>2487056
praying is never asking God to give you shit and if you think so you're retarded. Prayer is supposed to be communication with God and still acting by yourself.

>>2487660
Source or gtfo

>>2490692
your ass

>>2487457
I'm not seeing much two-way communication.

>>2490205
Today I learned that Jesus is retarded.

Doubt.
God already knows what's gonna happen, you don't. You pray hopping things are gonna be okay, because you don't know how are they gonna be.

>everything is predestined
>this includes prayer
>have no choice other than to pray when i do

>divine plan
>biblical
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>2486894
he just likes to hear you beg

>>2487042
>asking God to forgive your debts
t. Greek