>be France >singlehandedly overthrow one of the strongest

>>2469573

>where did this meme come from?

probably losing to germany three successive generations in a row, including surrendering their capital without firing a shot

>>2469588
This. They were humiliated in WWII and the Franco-Prussian war, and could've faired better in the Great War (although they did much better than the other two)

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>dode why fight when you can surrender lmao

Everyone knows only the latest war counts. Its like soccer where everyone refers to 7-2

>>2469588
>probably losing to germany three successive generations in a row

Um anon France won WW1

>>2469652

they got invaded, the germans reached the outskirts of paris, and the frogs had to be bailed out by their allies

the french were on the victorious side but they didn't win shit

>>2469573
Possibly from that time when Napoleon was beaten in 1814 the parisians openly invited the forgeign powers as their new leaders and had fun with them while Austrian Kuirrassiers and Russian Cossacks paraded around.

It could also come from the fact that in 1914-15 France's entire war strategy was to fall back at night under the cover of artillery and find new positions until they repeat the falling back part

>>2469671
Holy shit, you truly have an autistic germanoboo to believe thats what happened.

>>2469688
That's exactly what happened

>>2469671
>bailed out by their allies
Which allies? Britain couldnt field a proper army until 1916, Belgium was getting raped and Italy was busy getting into the meat grinder. They pushed the Germans alone at the Marne and held western front during the entire war.

The French military might begins with the Franco-Spanish war (1630es) and lasts until the the Concert of Europe

France before the Franco-Spanish war was a formidable kingdom but not as notable and powerful as it was in that period

>>2469573
>literally what? can someone explain this to me? where did this meme come from?
france didn't want to join the iraq war or something so the americans got butthurt

see: freedom fries

>>2469573
Fuck off frenchposter faggot

>>2469757
You also forgot Frances withdrawal from NATO in 1966

>>2469671
holy shit stop huffing memes m8
they've melted your brain

>>2469614
>Win the war
>haha it doesn't count silly frenchies :^)

>>2469614
>>2469671
>>2469686
>>2469763
t. lindybeige

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>>2469875
not even, first part comes from
http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/index.html

and second part comes from Erwin Rommel's "Infantry Attack!" (don't have source rn)

fucking autist

>>2469671
>if you need allies to win, then you don't really win
By that logic, Britain has literally NEVER won any war in Europe (unlike France that won many wars alone there)

>the french were on the victorious side but they didn't win shit
Top kek, France was easily the Entente nation that contributed the most
If you want a country that ended on the winning side without doing shit, look at Britain in the Napoleonuc Wars and WW2

>>2469688
WRONG
We Germans recognize that France was our main enemy during WW1
Verdun is widely seen as the worst battle of the war in Germany

It's self-important British scums who make posts like this one

>>2469623
Shitty exemple
In the siege your pic depicts, the French were so reluctant to surrender that Parisian civilians themselves resisted, even eating cats and rats once there was no food left, and eventually starting a Communist Free City at the end to avoid having to recognize the peace the French government had signed with Prussia

If you wanted an exemple of surrender monkey behavior in that war, you should have posted Sedan

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>>2469757
Who knew the US government could so easily manipulate the opinion of their people
That same people that is always suspicious of conspiracies by said government...

>>2469757
>>2470011
This.

We told 'murrica "We won't do it and we strongly advise you, based on our personal experience, to not do it.", then they did it anyway mocking us for being "cowards" to get the public opinion on their side and now they are all crying because of it.

Serves you right, you should have listened you fucking idiots.

>>2469757
It's older than that though. "Surrender monkey" jokes go way back - I remember hearing family members make jokes about it in the 90's.

>>2470011
Pretty telling graph regarding public opinion in the US but I don't think it's directly related to the American image of the French as cowards. I'm positive it's older than the Iraq war.

>>2469573
In the anglosphere I'm pretty sure it's a meme caused by a generation of American and British GIs helping to liberate French cities in WWII and then spending the next 60 years muh dick-ing about French girls welcoming them to France in the traditional way.

Over the next 10 years as the last of the "Greatest Generation" aka the last WWII vets die, the "French are cowards xDD" meme will start to die with them.

>>2470384
Fellow American here

>It's older than that though. "Surrender monkey" jokes go way back - I remember hearing family members make jokes about it in the 90's.
Literal made up story with your family
The term was first invented in one Simpsons episode in the 90s, but no one knew about it until it was memed to death in 2003

>In the anglosphere I'm pretty sure it's a meme caused by a generation of American and British GIs helping to liberate French cities in WWII and then spending the next 60 years muh dick-ing about French girls welcoming them to France in the traditional way.
Our G.I.s liberated half Europe, yet the meme is onlt about France, so wrong explaination

>Over the next 10 years as the last of the "Greatest Generation" aka the last WWII vets die, the "French are cowards xDD" meme will start to die with them.
WW2 vets arent the ones spouting that meme all over the internet, cretin
They werent even the ones spouting it in the media during the 2003 crisis
You probably never met a vet before, but they know how war really is and thus arent prone to make dumb jokes about soldiers who surrendered (since often they themselves had comrades who ended up captured in a battle and sent to camps).
Only people who never knew war make these jokes

>>2470415
>nobody watches the Simpson's :^)

>meme's only about France
For your average Murican, Europe is comprised of Britain, France, Germany, maybe Italy and Spain, and a few other countries maybe. That's probably further than it goes for WWII knowledge.

>a bunch of worthless insults
you seem mad Anon
There's really nothing worse than a bunch of old timers (or their boomer kids) jerking each other off about how they saved the world I tell you hwhat

>>2470555
>For your average Murican, Europe is comprised of Britain, France, Germany, maybe Italy and Spain, and a few other countries maybe.
Wrong
I know about most European countries and I'm pretty sure most of us at least know about Belgium and the Netherlands

>There's really nothing worse than a bunch of old timers (or their boomer kids) jerking each other off about how they saved the world I tell you hwhat
t. never met a WW2 vet
My great grandfather was one, and I never heard him boast about his service or mock the French

>>2469887
>some random webpage
>a book by a shit-tier German general
great sources you got there m8

France lost every single war they fought in the 50s and 60s to try and retain their colonies.

they lost several key battles in Vietnam because they didn't bring heavy weapons and thought the communists didn't have any.

>>2469713
>held western front during the entire war.
Full retard

>>2469573
>be the smoothest motherfucker on the block
>fuck up once in front of everyone
>your image is now permanently tarnished and you'll be remember to the rest of your days like the retarded who did that retarded action

that's how things work, get used to it

>>2469671

Indeed the French got invaded but they pushed them back while the Germans immeditaly surrendered the instant the French troops took hold in Germany.

>>2470622
Ok...?

>>2470608
>France lost every single war they fought in the 50s and 60s to try and retain their colonies.

All the two of them?

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>>2470595
still not seeing any arguments there friendo

>>2470622
it literally did, what the fuck are you talking about

>>2470819
Not even true, since France won the algerian war.

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>>2470608
>to try and retain their colonies.
We (sadly) still have our colonies

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>>2469671
Not even the British themselves believed that. There was actually a detailed series of records assembled for German casualties in the war by front sector. They show that in the first two years of the war (1914 to mid 1916) the French were basically hold the front on their own.

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>>2470824
You want "arguments" about the bullshit you spouted there >>2469686 ?

Pic related is the 1814 battle of Paris
Looks like a costly invitation to me
And saying the French are cowards because they accepted Allied terms after being defeated in 1814 is like saying that Germans were cowards for accepting Allied terms in 1918

With such cancerous arguments, were you seriously expecting a debate?

>>2469671
I think you are the model retard that OP is talking about.

>>2470824
>>2469887
>autistic retard is an anime poster
gosh what an unexpected twist

france didn't actually win ww1. i've been to verdun, i know you guys care and stuff. but you just didn't win. if it was france vs. germany in the west, you would have been smashed in 1915. if there hadn't been an eastern front, the germans probably actually would have celebrated christmas in paris. they actually almost got through as was in 1914, it's still subject of debate if they hadn't transferred vital reserves to the east (which only arrived after the battles in prussia had already been won).

an increasingly large part of the fighting was done by the british. you were increasingly reliant on anglo money and money and manufacturing. by 1917 the french army was incapable of going toe-to-toe with the germans. the americans had to win the war for you, although the british blockade would have done the job eventually as well. as late as early 1918, after years of blockades, knocking out the russians, taking over more and more of the combat against italy and assisting the hopeless ottomans, the germans still almost got through.

the french suffered most of all western powers and fought bravely, but their equipment, leadership and doctrines weren't capable of winning the war. the german army of 1914 really WAS the best in the world.

as for the reputation: that's something that really has been brought to europe from the united states and it's solely based on ww2. unfair perhaps, but that's just the way it is. and france's performance in that war, given that it had a larger army and more tanks than germany, really was very poor.

>>2469623
>emperor captured
>both outnumbered french armies are surrounded and forced to surrender after hellish sieges
>Paris largely undefended but citizenry bravely resist and form government to opose peace.
So the French are actually badass? French have always fought bitterly (Algeria, Vietnam) unlike the Bongs who run away/give savages independence.

>>2470892
yeah wtf how dare he uses anime reaction images on an anime forum like wtf

>>2470858
you're forgetting quite a number of battles the british fought. numerically inferior to the british, yes, but it was the crucial difference. they held off hundreds of thousands of germans which france didn't have to fight. without the french, the british wouldn't have needed bother to land on the continent. the would've been no point in doing so. but without the british, very likely france would've exhausted itself much more in 1915 and wouldn't have held out through 1916.

also, naval blockade of germany and the dismemberment of german colonial empire.

also, britain financed the french war effort.

>>2470892
>>autistic retard makes assumptions and still after several posts has nothing smart to say at all
gee, too predictable

>>2470958
>if it was france vs. germany in the west, you would have been smashed in 1915.
Wrong
France basically held the Western Front alone until late 1916, so even if Britain hadnt joined, France wouldnt have lost any sooner than 1917

>if there hadn't been an eastern front, the germans probably actually would have celebrated christmas in paris.
True
I'm German myself, and think no one can deny that we were the strongest nation in that war
Doesnt change the fact that France is the nation that contributed the most on the Entente side
If they cannot be considered victors despite that, then no one can

>an increasingly large part of the fighting was done by the british
The British barely did shit at all until the end of the war
It always amazes me how English speaking media always focus on the British contribution in WW1 when here in Germany, it's France and Russia that are seen as having been our main foes in that war

>the french suffered most of all western powers and fought bravely, but their equipment, leadership and doctrines weren't capable of winning the war. the german army of 1914 really WAS the best in the world.
Exactly
We were the best in that war, and no country could have defeated us alone
Still, among the coalition that barely defeated us after a long war of attrition, France was the country that contributed the most

>>2471021
>without the french, the british wouldn't have needed bother to land on the continent. the would've been no point in doing so

Without the French, the British would've been unable to fight a land war at all (given that the British army was so weak that the German police would arrest them upon landing) and thus would have been absolutly powerless and unable to do any harm to Germany

All Britain could have done would have been a naval blockade that would have been rendered completly useless by the fact that, in absence of a land war with France, Germany would have easily been able to sustain itself without having to rely on export
It's the massive war of attrition on the French border that drained the ressources out of Germany and made the naval blockade effective

If the war had been only between Germany and Britain, it would have devolved into a weak embargo and the average German wouldn't even have noticed a war was occuring

>>2471281

>If the war had been only between Germany and Britain, it would have devolved into a weak embargo and the average German wouldn't even have noticed a war was occuring

neither would the average Brit desu

Can someone unironically explain what France contributed to either world war that wasn't "getting invaded"

>>2471294
Yep, pretty much
Unless the Germans got their shit together and built a real navy, but they've never been much of a seafaring nation so....

>>2470241
>thinking that the american civilians had any say in what wars we get in to
Smart presidents know that if the full heart of the people isn't going into the war, we will probably lose
Look at vietnam for example

>>2471295
In WW1

-Provided a Western Front and held it basically alone for half of the war
-Even after Brits (and then Americans) finally started to help them on the Western Front from late 1916 onwards, frogs still made up most of the troops and lead most of the offensives
-Supreme Allied Commander Foch lead the decisive offensive (in which more Americans than Brits fought) that won the war
-Equipped and trained AEF troops
-Invented machine-gun based aerial warfare
-Had the highest ranking Allied aerial ace
-Created the best tank of the war
-Greatly helped on the Balkans Theater

France was easily the most important Allied country in WW1

Now in WW2...well, I can't think of anything relevant they did aside from maybe saving the Brits at Dunkirk (but then again, it's not like Brits were very decisive in winning the war anyway, so that shouldnt really count)

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France is Italy 2.0, progressively becoming less relevant over time.

>>2471338
I love how this pic conveniently skips WW1 and the French conquest of Vietnam in 1886 (as well as shitons of other wars) to just focus on the few defeats
When you know that France fought over 60 wars between 1850 and 2000 and only lost these four, it puts things into perspective

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>>2469982
>>2470986
>we surrendered our capital to the germans but it doesn't matter because some commies didn't like it
nice damage control lmao

>>2471387
You don't spend the largest conflict in human history doing nothing and get to live it down.

This simply is not how historiography works.

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>>2470892
>autistic retard doesn't know where he is

>>2471281
like i said, the british wouldn't have needed to bother to land. they would've been dealt with in an afternoon. it took them a while to get a decently sized army in the field, but to say they played no role until the somme just doesn't make sense.

>>2471336
nivelle offensive broke the french capability to lead when on the attack. from that moment on, british and/or americans had to provide majority of troops.

>>2471445
So like how Germany surrendered their capital in Seven Years War, Napoleonic Wars, and WW2.

>>2471451
they brought more guns and tanks to the field than the germans in 1940, which means they didn't do nothing. against all expectations, they were outmanoeuvred and outplayed.

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>>2471469
yes
>b-but germany

>>2471306
You are trolling right?
The Imperial German Navy was the 2nd strongest navy in the world at the time and very nearly the equal of Britain.
Also German U-boats were very effective in the blockade.
Hell without France the Naval blockade probably would have been even more devastating

>>2471484
Not an Argument

>>2471471
They also were operating with outdated military models and got surrounded because of a surprise German manuever through the Ardennes. Not to mention the Brits were also completely and utterly BTFO by the Germans but the bongs had an island to flee to.
The French government was in exile and the country was occupied. Even then the French contributed to the Allied effort (Free French soldiers) and after the liberation of France they contributed over a million men for the invasion of Germany

>>2471454
>like i said, the british wouldn't have needed to bother to land. they would've been dealt with in an afternoon.
And given that they would have been powerless against Germany with just their navy, they would have been unable to do anything effective without the French

>it took them a while to get a decently sized army in the field, but to say they played no role until the somme just doesn't make sense.
It's the truth though
Do you really think the 50,000 Brits on the Western Front in 1914 were of any relevance when both France and Germany were fielding over 3 millions of troops each?

>>2471454
>from that moment on, british and/or americans had to provide majority of troops.

Only for a few months in 1917
By late 1917, the French were back to leading on the Western Front and in each of the 1918 offensive they were by far the ones fielding the most troops

Simple

www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C-YSq5flow

>>2471451
>You don't spend the largest conflict in human history doing nothing and get to live it down.

Italy does it fine
Sure a few memesters on this website mock them, but you'll never see normies do it

>>2471604

Italy don't pretend to be good at war.

France cling to delusions of grandeur and insist on being perpetually more relevant than any other European country despite having been a continual embarrassment since 1815

>>2471513
>The Imperial German Navy was the 2nd strongest navy in the world at the time and very nearly the equal of Britain.
Numbers aint anything
The German navy had never been used and was very unexperienced
That's why the while navy got BTFO in one battle

>Hell without France the Naval blockade probably would have been even more devastating
Even with Germany isolated and the French front draining all their ressources, it took 4 fucking years before the naval bloackade started to have effects
If there had been no French front, the blockade would have been like a mosquito bite for Germany
And don't get me started on the scenario in which Germany and France are in good terms and exchange food
Britain was a weak powerless shithole and could never have came even remotely close from defeating Germany without allies

>>2471616
t. Lindybeige

The only people I see with "delusion of granduer" (what a weird pompous term, only a Brit would speak like that) here are Brits

>>2471616
t. lindybeige

>>2471645
>what a weird pompous term, only a Brit would speak like that

Are you a native English speaker?

Because I'm a burger and that's a pretty common term.

>>2471599
America did indeed win the War of 1812, but how is that related to this thread?

>>2471652
>Are you a native English speaker?

Nope, I'm German
But I've been speaking English fluently for years but I never came across this retarded term
Is "grandeur" even an English word? Since when do English words end in "eur"?

>>2471669
Its a French word, just like 50% of the English language, showing once again the grandeur and genius of France who generously spread the gift of her language to the Anglo-Saxon savages

>>2471656
America won the Great Patriotic War when Napoleon invaded? First time i hear that

>>2471616
>Italy don't pretend to be good at war.

Fuck off british faggot
We ARE good at war
Sure we may have fucked up in WW2, but we single-handedly annihilated the Austrian Empire in WW1 and Italian city-states repeatedly blown the shit out of Spain, France and the HRE during the Italian Wars
And don't get me started on the Roman Empire
The only reason we failed during WW2 was because of shitty commanders and Mussolini's retardation

>>2471632
not my post but i'll chime in:
- german navy was inferior, yes. minor point: british battlecruisers were shown to be shit.

- blockade had an effect long before that. parts of the german population was starving during the 16-17 winter and from at least mid-way through the war the english were much, much better provided for than the german troops at the front. just read ernst jünger. can't imagine what life was like for civilians, given the soldiers had it that bad.
also, on the latest scenario: if the germans and french hadn't gone to war, britain wouldn't have gone to war either. as is the british almost decided to wait this one out and it wasn't entirely clear whether the british would join in until quite late.

>>2471645
>>2471652
delusion of grandeur is a pretty well-known concept.
>>2471669
since the english started borrowing french words.

>>2471704
>single handly annihilated the Austrian Empire
haha, he says this referring to an Empire which was simultaneously fighting against the Russians, and at times the Romanians on the Eastern Front and which suffered 3.5 million casualties (1.2 million more than they suffered against the Italians) and on the Salonika front the Serbs, French, British, and Greeks.
even if you did the fact that you """"defeated"""" (with a huge amount of foreign assistance and allies) the Austro-Hungarians is irrelevant and pitiful, these are the same people who lost to the fucking Serbians

>>2471656
This song was made to celebrate the Rusian victory agaisnt Napoleon, pretty much when everything started going downhill for France.

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>>2471704
>>2471726
single handedly

also, read what germans though of italians during either world war.

italians were fierce warriors for thousands of years, but in the 20th century they were crap. hey, i'm dutch, my country wasn't exacly impressive during the world wars either. but during the first one when we were probly stronger than during second one, at least we had the sense to stay out.

why did the italians join? because they were promised tiny pieces of land and some money. good cause, bro. the slaughter of 1914 was horrendous and they knew it. surely what they were promised was not going to be worth joining that war. they didn't have to join, they did, they performed badly. not your fault, still true.

>>2471722
>delusion of grandeur is a pretty well-known concept.

It's literally an expression originating in a pretentious 1930s feminist play anon. Though to be fair, it was an American play, so >>2471645 is wrong.

t. literature student

>>2471632
Jutland showed the lethality of the Imperial Navy. Though it was unable to defeat the larger British fleet it inflicted more casualties and was potent.
>Blockade only affected end of war
Both blockades were pretty effective but with the advantage in material the British one was more effective.

>>2471704

>we ARE good at war

says the country whose defensive doctrine since 1871 has been "fall back, wait for allies to arrive, if none show up, peacefully surrender capital and set up collaborationist government"

>>2471829
>the anglos can't even tell the difference between Italy and France
I knew American education was bad but this is unusually bad even by their standards

>>2471768
i didn't know that. but it is often unironically used by historians.

>>2471829
Not as bad as the "get in at the end, pretend you did the heavy lifting" of the americans.

>>2471837

>implying there is a difference between one surrender monkey and the other

>>2471829
Germany would have conquered the UK in under a month if they were connected by land.
>inb4 that's just a scenario
The Brits got ran out of town by the Germans during the Battle of France.
>depend on allies to rescue
So like the Brits during WW2? Or what were you gonna land in Normandy by yourself?

>>2471837
Brits are so insanely obsessed with France they're just gonna spout anti-French shit even when replying to posts that have nothing to do with France

>>2471861

>The Brits got ran out of town by the Germans during the Battle of France.

If the French had done their fucking job there wouldn't have been a Battle of France

>>2471855
>implying there is a difference between an anglo and a monkey

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>>2471864
This

>>2471829
>fall back, wait for allies to arrive

Yeah but in WW1, they had to wait two fucking years and millions of dead for Brits (who had officially entered the war one day after France) to finally arrive
No one knows what Brits were doing for all that time, rumors say they were enjoying beach vacations in Turkey

>>2471868
It was the British who betrayed the France constantly throughout the 1930s and who enabled the Germans to conquer Europe.
Lloyd George stated in the 1920s that they were concerned about the excessively strong Franco-Polish alliance and how to counter it.
Boy did the Anglos sure succeed there! At least we didn't have to worry about those vicious and overly powerful French and Poles conquering Europe!

>>2471868
If Brits hadnt sabotaged the Versailles Treaty, there wouldnt have been any job to do in the first place

>>2471889

>enabled the Germans to conquer Europe

It doesn't get more German-enabling then literally offering an undefended Paris to the Germans

>>2469623
>47,000 civilian casualties

>>2471730
Russian "victory"

They lost the battle and burned down Moscow just to not adhere to a trade agreement, hardly a victory.

>>2471917
Well, the French army was too busy covering British ass at Dunkirk, they could be both there and in Paris

>>2471730
Napoleon defeated Russia.

>>2471932
Tsar Alexander got to boast and feel relevant
Sure hundreds thousands of Russian peasants died of starvation after the Russian army burnt their farms and fields, but who cares?

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>>2471943

>napoleon defeated russia

>>2471935
no one needed any cover. hitler halted the advance to please the british in the hopes of concluding a peace. if hitler had given the go ahead, the british would've been swept up. the entire dunkirk thing is a myth.

>>2471896
if the french hadn't occupied the ruhr and stuck to versailles, the weimar republic would've had a chance.

>>2471852
1,5 allied world war effort was fought on american capital and partially on american industrial production. also, they didn't have to come over here and do anything, yet they did. just saying.

>>2472059

I thought the Germans had run out of petrol at Dunkirk

>>2472059
>>2472067
You're both wrong
Hitler neither halted the advance "to please the Brits" (even he wasn't that dumb) nor because he ran out of petrol
He did because the lines were overextended and he feared the same scenario as at the First Marne during WW1 would occur
As soon it was good enough to go, the German advance started back at full speed, and had it not been for the French rearguard action, the whole BEF would have been captured

>>2472059
>1,5 allied world war effort
America had no production capability in the first world war compared to France, England or Germany.
>also, they didn't have to come over here and do anything, yet they did. just saying.
yeah they fucking did.
What do you think would have happened to the american market if fascism controls europe?
What happened to the american market after America defeated them?

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>>2471932
The "lost" the battle and retreated with greater strength than Napoleon entered Moscow with and then stayed in Tula all cozy and nice while Napoleon had an empty city with nothing in it (later not even buildings to hide in) because aparently russian saboreurs burned the town and then Napoleon had to retreat without having had made peace or met with any representative or delegation which led to the ultimate loss of the campaign.

yeah...Rusians lost that sure thing

>>2471943
n...no...??? do they not teach history where you live?

>>2471792
Jutland is fairly interesting because there's a lot to take away from it. The Germans definently had the technological advantage in fire control systems and shell design, along with a comparative advantage in armour due to their fleets not requiring the same range of operation as the Grand Fleet.
Howeve, despite Beatty colossal series of fuck ups, the Germans were horrifically out maneuvered during the brief period where the Grand Fleet and High Seas Fleet actually engaged. In general, the Rosbif were just better sailors than the Krauts and any further naval engagement would have resulted in an eventual decisive victory of the Nigels

Also, battlecrusies suck ouside their intended role

>>2469812
>"win the war"
>not "have it won for you"

>>2472875
France is the country that contributed the most on the allied side during WW1

You could say that Britain had the won war for them by their allies during the Napoleonic Wars and WW2, but you can't say that of France during WW1
That'd be like claiming that the USSR had the war won for them by their allies during WW2

>>2469573
Forgot the part where they singlehandedly saved America's ass in the Revolutionary War only to have a back turned to them during their wars with England after.

But yeah. People don't read history beyond WW2 so they just assume France has always been cucked, when even now they're still rather strong. GIGN is amongst the top five counter-terrorism/special operations forces in the world.

>>2469573
It was a joke fairly specific to WW2 before 9/11 (specifically '03 during the Iraq invasion) when America outed itself as being a spiteful little child when France refused to take part in one of the dumbest blunders of the past 50 years.

>>2469956
Eh, don't agree with the WW2 assumption. British troops made up a great deal of the forces on the Western front. America's infantry involvement is massively overstated and their main contribution were supplies to allies on all sides.

>>2472901
French army was a faggot, it mutinies in 1917 and only attacks behind US and british advances in 1918

>>2471307
According to both Pew and Gallup public support for the war in '03 was at 72%.

>>2469573
It only became a widespread meme after the US invaded Iraq and the nation went on an anti-French tantrum for a few years, and they found mocking France for it's capitulation in WW2 is/was pretty devastating.
Their fuck ups in Vietnam post WW2 were far worse though, and I blame the eternal Frank for wanting to retake it in the first place for the US's Vietnam adventures

>>2473312
Wait what, the Indochina war was propped up, both sides were bankrolled by the U.S., and would not even have started if they hadn't saved Ho Chi Minh's life in the first place.

French soldiers who fought in Indochina were literally called American mercenaries.

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>>2469573

>>2473853
Vive L'Empereur

>>2473853
VIVE L'EMPEREUR

>>2469588
>without firing a shot
What is the battle of dunkirk ?

>>2469757
This desu also nigel has a raging hard on for France.

>>2470577
>Wrong
You really think so? I'd put money on the table that the majority of my friends would have trouble drawing outlines of Spain, France, and Germany, not to mention any smaller nations like the Baltic or Balkan states.

>>2471281
How could Germany have ever invaded Britain?

>>2473853
VIVE L'EMPEREUR

>>2469573
It's idiots who can't understand warfare or history that create these stereotypes.
I mean i hear Austrians and Germans talking about how shit Italy is at war for example...
And people take the piss off the French even though they have the best military record of the modern world...

Is that a serious question?

The meme came from America. After WW2 France was the only Western country to maintain an independent foreign policy and not to become an American vassal. This prevented the US from taking over Western Europe the way they had intended. Surrender memes emerged as a way to brand France's position as "ungrateful" and "cowardly" in the eyes of the American public, and automatically discredit any French opposition to American policy, which might otherwise have provoked some thought among Americans.

There were three waves of this. First immediately after WW2, when De Gaulle and the Resistance prevented France from being treated as an occupied defeated country. Then around 1960, when De Gaulle left NATO command structure and acquired nuclear weapons. And especially around 2003, when France opposed the invasion of Iraq. Insulting France was a major tool of insuring popular support for the war. "You support the war right, you wouldn't want to be like those cowardly French surrender monkey faggot pussies now would you?" This is when it became a globally known meme thanks to the internet.

Kek, its hilarious to trigger the massive array of perpertually butthurt frogs on this board. I find it hilarious that they will try and defend Vichy France actually fighting AGAINST the British in World War II, while simultaneously insulting the British for blowing up their Navy.

>>2474104
I didn't read the thread but there's no surer way to tell someone has lost an argument than seeing him post a butthurt comment addressed to nobody in particular.

Vichy didn't fight Britain in any way btw, it was a neutral country. Despite the unfathomably cowardly and backstabbing sinking by the British of their ally's fleet.

>>2474125
France has no allies, only interests.

>>2474133
What is that retardedness even supposed to mean

>>2474147
It's a Charles de Gaulle quote, it means France will use people to fulfil it's national interest and that is it.

>>2471338
WW2 surrender was in 1940 and Algeria was in fucking 1962 you mongoloid
Holy shit I hate fags who like to talk shit about history and can't even get the years right

>>2473853
Vive l'empereur

>>2474133
Just like Britain then? The nation which was allied with the French against the Spaniards, the Spaniards against the French, the Germans against the French, the French against the Russians, the French against the Germans, the Russians against the Germans, and a host of other alliance changes and backstabs?

>>2471338
France beat the Algerians militarily, they realized it wasn't worth hanging on there.

>>2474157
No, the De Gaulle quote is "nations don't have friends, only interests" you retard.

>>2474184
>Just like

Not really, France actually respects its alliances, unlike Britain which uses every opportunity to backstab its """"allies""""

Seems to me that the most common misconception americans make about the europeans wars is that in their ignorance they conceptualize France and Germany at the same level because they remember how big they look now on a map.

>>2473853
Vive L'Empereur

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buh...buh the French don't know how to fight<

>>2469573
Could someone please post the French Revolutionary Wars pic of France against the world with the Pepe in front of the guillotine? You know the one.

>>2474252
Not only that but

>Italian War of 1521-1526
England is irrelevant
>Nine Year's War
Coalition

>Queen Anne's War
Colonies while France fights Europe

>Jacobite Rising of 1715
Top kek

>French and Indian War
Colonies while France fights Europe

The rest : Coalitions

>>2474125

>Vichy France
>ally

If you surrender your navy to the Nazis it deserves to get sunk, Jacques

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>>2474265

>>2474104
The source of this meme is american butthurt itself.

>>2474283
Thanks fampai.

>>2474280
But they didn't, you mong.

>>2474287

We delivered them literally a whole bunch of options that could have prevented the attack and allowed the French to fight the Germans, but the French being French, sperged out because the person delivering the ultimatum was a lieutenant and therefore unworthy of talking to a glorious French admiral

>>2474295
And? Do you think it's an easy thing to do to give two battlecruisers, two battleships and 6 destroyers to a shitty lieutenant?
They were about to agree when the brits sperged out, not the other way around.

>>2474303

>give them to a lieutenant

Nope, the lieutenant was merely delivering the terms from the Admiralty, not asking for any kind of command. The French Navy were given multiple opportunities to continue fighting the war and they refused so they unironically deserve everything they got for being at the very least deliberately cowardly and at the worst outright collaborationist

>>2474312
>multiple opportunities to continue fighting the war
Literally one.
The rest of your post is absolutely retarded. The armistice had no terms concerning the french navy. And Vichy itself wasn't even at war.
Remember, this isn't even a debate. Not only De Gaulle, but Churchill too, said it was one of the biggest mistakes of England during the war.
De Gaulle considered how retarded it was, and Churchill confirmed it was the british high command sperging out.
It made the french rightfully defiant of the british, and hurt the relations between the two country. The attack was used by Vichy as propaganda.
Most of the officers and marines in the fleet liked the UK and wanted to keep fighting on with them. It was utter retardation on a catastrophic level.

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>and then he said "Vichy France wouldn't have surrendered their fleet to Nazi Germany"

>>2474280
But they didn't you dumbass. They specifically kept it out of German control, which btw was a condition of the armistice in the first place. But that wasn't enough for the English, who demanded it be handed over to English control.

>>2474342
>and then he posted without replying because he lost the argument
>and then he pretend to know the situation better than both heads of the states concerned

>>2474330

>Churchill confirmed it was the british high command sperging out.

It was Churchill's idea and he made the decision

Obviously De Gaulle was butthurt about it because De Gaulle was butthurt about literally everything.

if you seriously don't believe vichy's navy wouldn't have been used in the german war effort you're deluded. the vichy french rounded up jews on behalf of the nazis and the french milice persecuted their own countrymen for """treason""" against the germans

vichy is the greatest stain on france's history and also is a pretty good answer to OP's original question of why people perceive France as cowardly surrender monkeys despite an otherwise distinguished military history

>>2474342
Why the fuck would they have done that you idiot?

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>>2474342
>he says, when the French scuttled their Toulon-based navy in 1942 when the Germans requested that they be handed over to them
Oops.

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>>2474355
Clearly thought the Royal Navy would come back for round 2

>>2473853
Vive L'Empereur

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>>2474343

>that wasn't enough for the English, who demanded it be handed over to English control.

Except that's wrong. The French were given the chance to fight the war under their own flag but their admirals would rather either sit in port for the duration of the war, thus passively helping the Nazi war effort, or hand the fleet over to the Germans and actively help it

>>2474345
>It was Churchill's idea and he made the decision
Yeah, and he sperged out. Even that fat lard admitted it.
>vichy is the greatest stain on france's history and also is a pretty good answer to OP's original question of why people perceive France as cowardly surrender monkeys despite an otherwise distinguished military history
Not really. It hardly fought the allies, and any country occupied by the germans would have ended up doing the same thing.
It's only a stain if you're one of those retards who believe the french should have mass revolted against the germans, and thus seppukued the entire country. It's easy to judge when you're an ocean away from real danger.
As said previously, real veterans don't think that way. Only angry internet warriors.

>if you seriously don't believe vichy's navy wouldn't have been used in the german war effort you're deluded
You're utterly ignorant. When the germans did break the armistice and tried to grab the ships, they were ALL sunk. History itself proves you wrong.

>>2474345
Everyone in France was butthurt about it, they had gotten their fucking fleet destroyed by their supposed "ally".

This became grounds for justified hostility towards England and the main argument in favour of Vichy's policy that "we should stay out of the war because we can trust the English even less than the Germans". This was also the main reason why Darlan, who controlled French North Africa, refused to join Free France and remained loyal to Vichy. Many lives could have been spared and the war considerably shortened by initial Allied control of North Africa, if it wasn't for English greed and obsession with France, because to the English WW2 wasn't about defeating Germany but was just another opportunity in their eternal quest to try to weaken France.

>>2474365
They were about to agree before the brits attacked them during the extended parley, as said several times above.

>>2474365
Why do you keep making shit up? There was no point at which handing over the fleet to the Germans was even remotely within the realm of possibility.

>>2474370
In fact if anything the main reason De Gaulle was butthurt about it was because it strengthened support for Vichy and weakened Free France, as he was seen by many as a traitor for colluding with British traitors.

>>2474366

>It's only a stain if you're one of those retards who believe the french should have mass revolted against the germans,

I'm not that naive. Nevertheless it's a fact that for a country that wasn't even technically occupied, Vichy went above and beyond the reluctant compliance that would be expected, and into active collaboration territory.

As I said >>2474365, the French Navy had three choices, help the Allies, passively help the Germans, or actively help the Germans. As soon as they refused to help only one thing was ever going to happen and you'll never convince me that it wasn't justified so we'll have to agree to disagree

>>2474372
>They were about to agree

Lying on the internet is immoral, anon.

>>2474372
Eh, even I'm French, and yet can concede that that the British were urged to betray their words towards the French of the negotiations being under the lull of non-aggression because they'd intercepted transmissions from other elements of the French navy announcing that they were arriving to reinforce them, which would've tipped the odds in favor of the French. So more to it than evilly betraying the French out of nowhere, but still betraying the French.
But it remains that the British hadn't even ended the negotiations when they started firing upon the French, and that the French hadn't even answered yet (what with awaiting orders from Vichy that they could flee to Martinique, though it's vague whether the French navy would've abided to those orders).

>>2474388
>As soon as they refused to help
They didn't you idiot.

>>2474383
>he was seen by many as a traitor for colluding with British traitors.

This is hilarious given the fact that Vichy France was LITERALLY colluding with the Nazis. They were already traitors to their own people, bending over for German cock.

The British saved their dignity by blowing them up.

>>2473853
VIVE L'EMPEREUR

>>2474406
The Germans hadn't backstabbed any of their allies, unlike the English.

>>2473853
vive l'empereur

>>2474388
>Vichy went above and beyond the reluctant compliance that would be expected, and into active collaboration territory.

No, they didn't. The rafle was ordered by the third reich, and laval actively negotiated so that it excluded french jews.
It hardly fought the allies, too.

>>2474388
Yes, helping the germans by not helping them. Obviously. You realize the vast majority of those marines wanted to join england into the fight, right? Vichy wasn't even formally formed when Mers el kébir happened.
>and you'll never convince me that it wasn't justified so we'll have to agree to disagree
What bullshit. Everyone and their mothers' been proving you wrong for twenty fucking posts and you leave with that.

>>2474395
>Dans le courant de l'après-midi, un compromis était sur le point d'être trouvé, après que Somerville eut prolongé son délai.
Please. Though, I just checked, and of course the english version of the article about Mers el kébir doesn't mention that.

>>2474406
This level of pettiness is unbelievable. There's a fucking world war going on and all the Brits can think about is sticking it to the French, even when it considerably harms the war effort. Absolutely pathetic.

>>2474416
>The Germans hadn't backstabbed any of their allies, unlike the English.

No, they just went back on their word and invaded several fucking neutral countries because they thought they could do whatever they wanted.

Fuck off Naziboo, your containment board exists >>>/pol/

>>2474425
>sticking it to the French
The real French fought with the British to take back their country.

The fact that you are defending Vichy France is pathetic.

>>2474431

>neutral countries
At least they didn't FUCKING BOMB THEIR ALLIES

>The real French fought with the British to take back their country.
Which is what the French navy would have done if the English hadn't fucking sunk it you utter moron.

>you are defending Vichy France
lol what? Getting desperate much?

For a lot of normies "history" is just WW2.
Other's go along with it because French people are rude and unpleasant as hell though bitches love them.

>>2474418

>you realize the vast majority of those marines wanted to join england into the fight, right?

Maybe they should have, then, instead of stalling for time whilst waiting for reinforcements and telling the Brits they would resist with force

>>2469573
>literally what? can someone explain this to me? where did this meme come from?

From people being retarded.
Modern history education consists mostly of hollywood movies and the internet.

In the end we are getting glorified and americanized versions of WW2, Cold War and Vietnam, sometimes Civil War. Nothing else.

So we reached the point where the French are surrender monkeys that needs rescuing, Poland is a weakling who needs rescuing, Germans never participated in WW2 (it was Nazis, not Germans), America single-handedly wins WW2, Russia are zergs.... Et Cetera.

In 10 years nobody in western world will know who Napoleon was.

>>2474450

>vichy france
>allies

Vichy France was a hostile collaborationist regime that fought against the Allies on numerous occasions

>Which is what the French navy would have done if the English hadn't fucking sunk it

[citation needed]

That's just conjecture, whilst the historical evidence shows that the Navy was at best reluctant and at worst opposed to working with the Allies against the Axis.

>>2474539
No it wasn't you dumb fucking idiot. Aside from the fact that the navy wasn't even "Vichy France", the only time Vichy fought the Allies was in self-defence when the Allies invaded North Africa, which wouldn't even have been necessary if the English hadn't been such selfish greedy faggots and sunk the French navy.

>>2474539
>that's just conjecture
>the completely ludicrous notion that the navy would have submitted itself to Nazi control isn't

>>2474559

>only north africa

Vichy fought the Allies all over the world. Indochina, Madagascar, West Africa, the Middle East, as well as North Africa. At literally every opportunity of working with the Allies and joining the Free French, Vichy refused and took the Nazi side.

>"invading"
>"self-defence"

your Vichyboo is leaking you stormfaggot

>>2474563

>france submitted to nazi control
>the hypothesis that the french navy would have submitted to nazi control is ludicrous!

really makes you think...

>>2474583
>french navy scuttles its fleet when the nazis try to seize it
wow yeah such submission

>>2474593

>fight the liberating allies at every possible opportunity and persecute your own resistance movement on behalf of your german overlords
wow yeah such brave resistance

>>2474607
No one ever said they were. Are you arguing with yourself?

>>2474612

I'm arguing with the various people in this thread who seem to suggest it's not justified to attack a hostile power who rejects your ultimatum of "please don't collaborate with the nazis"

>>2474406
For fucks sake. This fucking british attitude.

Vichy France was a natural reaction to the catastrophic defeat of france in 1940.

If you actually try to understand the 1940s perspective you see that they had no real choice. The Vichy government allowed them to retain a modicum of control over some of their territory. And out of a 1940s French perspective a Nazi Victory wasn't that unlikely.

>>2474615
you realize Mers el Kébir happened before any fighting with Vichy, and was likely the reason for several french colonies being loyal to it?

>>2469652
And WWII, in the end.

>>2474625
Why did they put more effort into fighting the allies than the Germans themselves though?

>>2474629

I'm aware of that which generally makes things even worse. It wasn't even a Nazi puppet state which made the decision not to join the Allies, it was the actual legitimate French government

fuck the French and fuck their Navy, which could have joined the Free French - was begged to join the Free French - but they thought the Nazis were going to win the war so they didn't bother and would rather sit in port eating cheese and drinking wine

>>2474641
>It wasn't even a Nazi puppet state which made the decision not to join the Allies, it was the actual legitimate French government
Not really. It wasn't either, it was just Darlan. And it was a complicated matter.

>fuck the French and fuck their Navy, which could have joined the Free French - was begged to join the Free French - but they thought the Nazis were going to win the war so they didn't bother and would rather sit in port eating cheese and drinking wine
that's just utterly retarded

>>2474646
Don't mind them. Its easy to talk big when the Ocean keeps you safe.

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>>2473887
Spain and France are actually the countries Americans can place the most

>>2474661

>22 miles of water
>ocean

you can see england from german-occupied france

it's not our fault we had a good enough navy and air force to stop the germans crossing

if you had a good enough army maybe you could have stopped the germans too
it's not exactly the atlantic

>>2474361
Not really
The very reason why Brits went for 5 irrelevant ships off Algeria while doing nothing about the much more threatening entire fleet of over 30 ships in Toulon is because they were too much of pussies to ever come back near the French coasts after Dunkirk without Daddy US to protect them from German meanies

>>2474680
>these are all fake
Smart man.

>>2474688
oh well, if you can see it from there it should be easy for german panzers to cross right?
what the fuck is your argument even?

>>2474691

>majority of french battleships
>irrelevant ships

>sloops, torpedoes, destroyers, supply ships
>threatening fleet

If anything, Toulon was doing the Nazis a favour by keeping such shitty ships out of German hands

another reason to condemn the eternal frank

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>>2474639
Reminder that 3,000 troops of Vichy put up a greater resistance against 36,000 Japs than 85,000 Brits did

>>2474713

Reminder that the French got double-cucked in Indochina by having the Japanese invade and take over what was already a puppet Nazi client state.

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>>2474711
>destroying one battleship and one destroyer (as well as barely damaging three others) is more relevant than destroying 3 battleships, 7 cruisers, 15 destroyers and 12 submarines

The absolute state of British delusion
Face it, you pathetic attack on the flottilla at Mers El Kebir was nothing to compensate the frustration you had from being too much of a bunch of pussies afraid of the Germans to ever approach the continent again and destroy the real French fleet

win 100 times get no credit loose 1 time get roasted for the next century. I know guys this is frustating but it's the daily routine of a great nation. They are just lacks in History, don't mind these ignorent.

I'm French and I don't care when someone says "surrender nation" or "bad weapon" BUT DON'T FUCK WITH ENGLISH ARMY, THEY WAS HERE TO HELP US EVERY TIME. Thanks GB !

>>2474782
t. Lindybeige

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>>2474739

>France
>Calling anyone pussies
>Calling anyone afraid of the Germans

Notice how everything in this image is intact, because the French were literally too terrified of the Germans to even defend their own capital city, so instead they literally invited them in

you can fling all the shit at Britain you like but you will never in your history or lifetime live down the utter disgrace and depravity that France sunk to in WWII which has rightfully nullified the previous thousand years of proud military excellence

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>>2474796
The French weren't afraid of Germans, that's why they accepted to live with them
Meanwhile, Brits ran away at the first sight of them and hid until Daddy USA came

>>2474801

>Brits ran away at the first sight of them

Absolutely. Why die for a country that doesn't even want to defend itself?

>>2474796
>Notice how everything in this image is intact, because the French were literally too terrified of the Germans to even defend their own capital city, so instead they literally invited them in

More like because the French army was too busy covering the British escape at Dunkirk to defend Paris
Can't be everywhere at once

>>2474805
The French doing quite well until they had to divert their effort to protect the British escape

>>2474796
your opinion is irrelevant though
I could bring up Patay and say your country doesn't exist, but it wouldn't be the case.

>>2474796
NOTICE ME LINDY SENPAI

the eternal fr*nk still trying to justify one of the most cowardly displays in history I see.

>>2474832

>your country doesn't exist

a bit like france between 1940 and 1944 then

>>2474853
If we're going that way, England has been under occupation for a vastly longer time than France ever had.

>>2474862
seriously when was the last time England had an English monarch? 1065?

>>2474575
>I'm literally retarded

>>2474583
But it didn't you memeing idiot. The Armistice wasn't an unconditional surrender. It specifically included that France would retain full sovereignty over its navy.

>>2474869

>WE WUZ KONIGS N SHEEEEEIIITTTT

the last foreign-born monarch of britain was born in 1683

>>2474881

>I'm literally retarded

Not an argument. The fact remains that Vichy France fought on the side of the Axis against Free French and other Allied forces at every conceivable opportunity.

Dispute this.

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>>2474886
>foreign-born
>implying a dog born in a stable is a horse

>>2474901
It literally didn't. Like already stated, the only times it fought against Allies was when it was attacked by Allies.

>>2475454
Within 100 years they will have a Paki Sultan and will claim he is 100% English just because he was born in London.

>>2475454

>It literally didn't

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria%E2%80%93Lebanon_Campaign

Ten thousand fucking frogs preferred to die for the Nazis rather than join the Allies when given the chance

An American smear campaign because the French did not send troops to the middle east after 9/11

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>>2471014

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>>2475485
France was actually one of the first countries to send troops to Afghanistan to help the US after 9/11, and had the 4th highest casualties of all coalition members

It's the 2003 Iraq War (an aggression war totally unrelated to 9/11) that France refused to partake

>>2473853
VIVE L'EMPEREUR

>>2473853
VIVE L'EMPEREUR

>>2473853
Vive L'Empereur!

>>2475483
That was Vichy getting attacked by the Allies, what part of that don't you understand? This wasn't "for the Nazis", Syria was under Vichy control.