Why do so many Americans think that America's imaginary

>>2440740
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Japan#Outcomes

>>2440759
Linking to a wiki page that has nothing to say on the topic really showed me up, burger. I guess you win this round.

>>2440772
>Linking to a wiki page that has nothing to say on the topic

Are you retarded?

>>2440740
>Of course they can't ever give you any details.
If you are looking for some details see https://fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL33331.pdf

That article is a comparison between the aid the US gave to Post WW2 Germany/Japan and Post Saddam Iraq. Though short it has plenty of numbers and figures.

>>2440833

Japan was already a great power post Meiji Restoration. It's why they had the ability to go to war in the first place.

>>2440833
Your page is useless for the argument. Try reading it for the first time in your life. You might learn something.

>>2440867
Ditto for you. Try reading that paper for the first time in your life. Good luck and ask your parents for help if you come across big words you don't understand.

>>2440740
The US did give Japan aid. First of all not asking for big reparations like in WW1 was a big help.
The actual aid came in the form of material goods such as money and food and in much needed reforms.
I don't think the Japanese government could have done land reforms and the break up of conglomerates (zaibatsu). So that one is big in my book.
Big difference between Japan and Europe is that Europe got the Marshall Plan where the aid was free. Aid to Japan mostly took the form of loans. So for example, the US gave Japan food and oil through GARIOA and EROA funds, but that aid was tabulated and became Japanese gov't debt to the US. (It ran up to $490 million in 1961, a huge sum back then. Japan finished paying that money back in 1973.)
Most people remember the Marshall Plan as a generous gift (and it was) and kinda assume the same happened to Japan. And forget that in the case of Japan the aid came in the for of loans.
Regardless, the fact that the US gov't gave aid when Japan needed the aid was good.
And the two structural reforms (land and zaibatsu) were something that Japan surely needed for creating a prosperous middle class society after the war.
(I'm less sanguine about US intervention in the constitution and education, but that's a different issue.)
You can get more from various books on US aid. One is Sumiya Mikio's A History of Japanese Trade and Industrial Policy. Chapters 9 and 10 talks about the immediate postwar era.
If you can read Japanese go look up ガリオア資金 and エロア資金. Wiki will do for a quick version of this story.

>>2441990
Are you retarded or something lol.

>>2440872
Sure they were. They then lost their war, millions of men, their entire navy, army and air force, not to mention almost everyone of their large cities and industrial ports were rubble and two cities completely destroyed by a single bomb.

>>2440740
>imaginary intervention
The U.S. government ran Japan directly for 12 years and indirectly for another 60. How in the fuck is that 'imaginary'?

I think what your all failing to realize is the op is a massive faggot and troll see how he responds to any reasonable argument
>>2442063

Abandon thread or hate on op just don't feed the ashole

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>>2440740
>Why do so many Americans think that America's imaginary intervention following WW2 is the reason for Japan's prosperity today?

Crude Orientalism.

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>>2440740
>
> be Japanese
> start a war
> get your ass kicked by America
> "Now listen here, Japan! You can't spend any of your tax dollars on a military!"

Gee, I wonder why Japan and Germany became huge economic powers?....

>>2441990

>Aid to Japan mostly took the form of loans.

Incorrect

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL33331.pdf

>Total U.S. assistance to Japan for the years of the occupation, from 1946-1952 was roughly $2.2 billion ($15.2 billion in 2005 dollars), of which almost $1.7 billion
was grants and $504 million was loans.

>>2442130
The thread is about a certain misconception, and you fags come in spouting that very misconception with zero self awareness. Hilarious but also very sad.

>>2442392

No, this thread is about how you, or whomever OP is, responds to citations of evidence against his point by calling anyone who provides it retards and never substantively defending his argument.

>>2442185
>Chart shows Japan as one of the biggest spenders on defense
>Japan was never forbidden to spend on defense
Your conclusion based on these facts? Japan prospered because they spend zero money on defense due to US forcing them. You might want to get checked for brain cancer.

>>2442403
What substantial argument did you provide aside from pointing to a paltry aid that was most likely outweighed by what Japan paid in occupation fees?

>>2442413

>Japan paid in occupation fees?

You mean, 0? Or is providing evidence beneath you? And on what basis are you calling the aid "paltry"? You can look up the overall GDP of Japan from 1900 to 1950 here

http://www.analysis.williamdoneil.com/CIM_D0007249.A1.pdf

You will notice, that when it peaked in 1942, it was 214 billion in 1990 dollars. That means, assuming U.S. aid was more or less equal every year from 46-52, the Americans were giving about 2.5% of the ENTIRE JAPANESE ECONOMY each year as a gift. That's not paltry, that's fucking huge. Even the biggest recipients of U.S. foreign aid today don't get anything like that. For comparison, U.S. aid to Israel in 2014 was 3.1 billion, which makes it about 1% of their GDP, and has all the stormfags crying about how ZOG is running the U.S. government to suck everything out of America to give it to the Jews.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/total-u-s-foreign-aid-to-israel-1949-present

https://www.google.com/search?q=Israel+GDP+2014&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Then, in addition to that, you have the various loans (smaller), the access to all the primary materials in the American dominated economic sphere, which Japan didn't have access to before and wouldn't likely to get on their own with their former policies. You have American protection from the Soviet threat, which forestalls huge further military expenditures. You have the importation of western style business models, intellectual capital diffusing more easily, American non-aid expenditures that boost the local economy, etc.


Tell me something. Is your weeabooism making you retarded, or did you become a weeb because you have trouble connecting strings of fact to conclusion?

American occupation post war broke up the Zaibatsus and other family based power structures. At least on paper, things never change in Japan. The family business conglomerates stayed in power.

>>2442185
You read your own posts before posting them?

>>2440740
The economic miracle of Japan is related to the help of America, I do not think anyone says it is the only fact, but also cannot be said that US aid did not influence

>>2442470
You didn't just use 1990 $ as if it's the same as 2013 $ did you lol?

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>>2442553
>The economic miracle of Japan is related to the help of America, I do not think anyone says it is the only fact, but also cannot be said that US aid did not influence

The simple fact is that Japan was already a modern industrial economy long before WW2, and the aid that America gave to the country has to be balanced against the damage inflicted during the war.

>>2441208
not sure if that person was trying to form an argument. I think they were literally just trying to help you understand something you already said you don't understand. fucking child.

>>2442650
Not really.
Japan was the aggressor and the US had no obligation to help rebuild at all.
Whatever Japan was economically before the war is not relevant.

The money issue drives both sides crazy because not enough people can read Japanese sources in America and not enough people bother to read English sources in Japan and that causes problems.

The American side of the story is all about the massive aid the US gov't gave to Japan. This anon's Congressional Paper is a perfect example. $1.7 billion as grants and $504 million in loans in money at the time.
>>2442304

The Japanese side still remembers that Japan paid Occupation fees. Google 終戦処理費 (shuusen shorihi)
>>2442413

37.9 billion yen (379 oku yen, which was equivalent to roughly $2.5 billion in 1946 dollars) in 1946 alone to pay for the US Occupation. In 1947 they paid 64.7 billion yen, (the yen inflated against the dollar so that was about 1.3 billion dollars in 1947). In 1948 they paid 106.1 billion yen to pay for the US Occupation (again because of the inflation it went down to $370 million in 1948 dollar terms), and in 1949 it was 99.7 billion yen, which came to $277 million. This payment by the Japanese government continued until the US Occupation ended in 1952 and is called the Shuusen shorihi. This money paid for the US Occupation forces' housing costs, all the supplies that US Occupation used in Japan, and payment for any Japanese personnel hired by the US Occupation.

So the Japanese who know their history feel like the US "gave" money but actually took most it back through the Occupation fees.

Its impossible to bridge this gap anytime soon.

>>2442698
>Whatever Japan was economically before the war is not relevant.

It's actually is quite relevant, since people are broadly implying that Japan (and to a lesser extent Germany) was a pre-industrial agrarian economy that was only brought up to modern standards by US intervention, a generally held misconception which led to disastrous policy when the Bush 43 administration tried to "Marshall Plan" post invasion Iraqis into Ohio Republicans.

It worked because there was a pre-existing industrial base to build on.

>>2442829
>since people are broadly implying that Japan (and to a lesser extent Germany) was a pre-industrial agrarian economy that was only brought up to modern standards by US intervention
wut
I've literally never heard anyone imply that.

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>>2442727

I'm googling and finding the following; i.e. absolutely jack shit about occupation fees.


Please source your shit.

>>2442650
>The simple fact is that Japan was already a modern industrial economy long before WW2
So was Germany. Nobody says that US aid had little or nothing to do with its economic recovery or it was imaginary/paltry like the OP has.

>aid that America gave to the country has to be balanced against the damage inflicted during the war.
If the US only rebuilt everything they burnt down that would still have a huge effect on Japan's ensuing economic recovery.

>>2442829
>since people are broadly implying that Japan (and to a lesser extent Germany) was a pre-industrial agrarian economy
Nobody has implied that. Japan/Germany was WW2 would have been much quicker and easier for the Allies.

>>2442853
https://books.google.com/books?id=MqbNicpQKUoC&pg=PA420&lpg=PA420&dq=shusen+shorihi&source=bl&ots=qWE45TnOeu&sig=qRP0SgV0bby0yjXch6E1wZKH7N4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiK2eHDg7fSAhXJy4MKHWNnAJkQ6AEIJDAB#v=onepage&q=shusen%20shorihi&f=false

Google books John Dower, Embracing Defeat. This part mention in passing how huge the US occupation fees were (and how the Japanese press was forbidden to talk about it).

If you get nothing from Shuushen shorihi, you can try Shusen shorihi. The "u" is a long u.

>>2442853
Maybe you shouldn't Google anime shit you weeb

>>2442087
a modern knowledge base and modern institutions had already been created though. That's all that matters

i know jackshit about history but here's my 2 cents:
relative to physical capital (plants, machines, buildings), losses in human capital (skills and knowledge required to produce goods and services) and labor were small. because the level of capital is low, the marginal product of capital is high, so small increases in capital (by way of us aid) lead to large increases in output.

>>2442921
>a modern knowledge base and modern institutions had already been created though
I feel that this is sometimes overlooked when talking about post WW2 Japan. Its easier to rebuilt a burned downed building when you have the architects/architectural knowledge to do so. They needed more than just that though. US aid helped with the "where do we get the money/equipment to rebuild this building" type questions.

>>2440740
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL33331.pdf

>>2442650
Japan attacked the USA you assravaged weeb.

The USA owed Japan nothing but burnt cities and an occupation.

>>2442865
These "occupation fees" were taxes paid to the legitimate government of the United States Armed Forces in Japan.

For about 3 years (1945-1948) before the Constitution, the US forced handled most of the budget in Japan. It was de-jure the government before the constitution took effect and de-facto the government until 1952.

>>2444177
You have your history mixed up with Germany. The US occupation in Japan was never the legitimate gov't of Japan.
Until the 1947 constitution went into effect, the legitimate gov't was Japanese and was run according to the Meiji Constitution. 3 Prime Ministers, Higashikuni, Shidehara, and Yoshida served from 1945 to 1947 when the new constitution took effect. And the Emperor remained in place as the sovereign.
The US occupation was a legally weird entity that could dictate terms to the Japanese gov't because of the surrender. But it was never the legitimate government unlike in Germany.

When the US military stationed in Britain buys food from the locals, who should pay for it? Should it be the US military aka US taxpayers? Or should it be the British tax payers?

>>2440740
>Why do so many Americans think that America's intervention following WW2 is the reason for Japan's prosperity today?
Because it is! But don't worry my nip friend, Japans economy is failing, so you will get to experience the poverty that would have taken place in your lifetime.

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>>2442650
>Japan today was totally Japan in 1931
It's easy to increase output if you conquer all your neighbors.

interesting thread