How do catholics justify idolatory? >inb4 catholics aren't

>it ain't idolatry if we do it!1!11!

How do catholics justify their Polytheism and idolatry? Extreme mental gymnastics.

>>2393019
Any example of those mental gymnastics?

>>2393013
>How do catholics justify their Polytheism and idolatry?
Second Council of Nicaea allowed it. So catholicism won't disagree with the will of the Fathers.

Its not a sin unless you put them before god

>>2393041
3 divine beings = 1 divine being
Dude trinity lmao

>>2393041
They norally use very convoluted terms that are synonyms but they use mental gymnasties to say aren't the same
Being=/=person
Adoration=/=worship
Figure=/=idol

You aren't a true christian either.
They are always persecuted and are gnostic.

>>2393224
That is a strawman and the trinity is biblical

>>2393230
>Being=/=person
This is a fact

>>2393013
They do not consider it worship, They consider it veneration of a superior individual who is closer to God.

The statues are not prayed to but are icons to help bring focus.

If you think that is convoluted it is but Christians have been doing it in some form since the 1st century, as a visit to the catacombs will demonstrate

Like it matters. You could argue that a Church itself is idolatrous.

>>2394326
Personhood is just a subcategory of being, it is not distinct from it, and something having a personhood separate from their being is absurd.

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The veneration of the saints makes little sense in Christian context, considering God is held to be omniscient/omnipresent and omniscient, as well as completely Just.

Why would he need an army of intermediaries to take requests from human subjects? Can't God do that himself? Being omnipotent, it wouldn't even be bothersome to him.

Why should God be more favorable to a person who asked a saint to pray to God for them, than to someone who simply prayed to him directly? Is God some kind of mafioso, rather than a supposedly merciful supreme Judge?

Also, why even bother praying (sorry, "asking") to a saint to pray to God for you? Why not do it yourself?

It's extremely convoluted, and makes no sense. The veneration of the saints is simply a way to satisfy people's desires to have "variety" in their worship, since monotheism gets boring.

>>2394404
>Personhood is just a subcategory of being
Do Jellyfish have personhood?

>>2394385
>They do not consider it worship, They consider it veneration of a superior individual who is closer to God.
That's worship
>Christians have been doing it in some form since the 1st century
Lolno, it started in the late 4th century

>>2393053
>muh tradition
Its not only The argument for idolatry but for any kind of stupid shit catholics do.

>>2394530
Well no, read some academic papers on the issue. Greek and roman Christians built triumphal arches over the tombs of martyrs and prayed to them like spiritual patrons (patronage being a hallmark of their social organization)

Like it or not the ground work for this type of thing was laid down in early Christian communities

>>2394435
The saints in heaven are perfected in Christ, and the bible says the prayers of a righteous man availeth much.

>>2394566
Who gives a shit about the Bible? The fact that different denominations can hold views that are diametrically opposed to each other based on the same book shows just how useless that book is.

>>2394554
No, they didn't.

>>2394566
The saints in heaven can't hear you

>>2394591
Well they did. If that makes you uncomfertable you can pretend there are some hidden "pure" Christian communities that didn't do this. But there is no evidence such communities existed, except for maybe messianic Jews who were considered heretics

>getting your doctrine from the bible
Bible: Sell all you have and give to the poor.
Gospel of Thomas, a gospel found in Nag Hamadi in 1945: Do not give alms, for it will damage your spirit.

Oh wow, look at the doctrinal edit.

>>2394594
How would you know?

>>2393224
They're not 3 divine beings, why do americucks always say that?

If I chop your head off you don't suddenly become 2 retards do you?

>>2394907
>They're not 3 divine beings

But they literally are taught as that. The spirit is not the father is not the son yet at the same time they are one.

Your analogy is retarded as the human being is not thought as in the same way as the church doctrine is.

>>2393019
>>2394435
>>2394530
Catholicism always speaks of heaven, whatever the fuck that looks like. As a seemingly highly structured place, where the figure of god acts as a king, with the angels and humans as his subjects.

Outside of the old testament god never comes to earth himself, he always does things trough someone else. You also don't pray to saints as if they were gods, but you pray to them like you pray to your death relatives, you can pray and ask for favors from your relatives as well, or pray for their well being in the afterlife, they are death humans, therefore not deities, therefore not polytheism.

And if you are talking about the idols, images and statues, nobody prays to them, they are just decoration AFAIK, and I've never seen them act as anything else, some people will claim that some objects are holy, but you don't pray to the object, not even just as a representation of the god.

>>2394955
I was in a catholic school, and took cathequesis for a while, and the holy spirit and the father were never referred to as separate entities, the holy spirit isn't mentioned much at all tbqh, it's mostly tough of as the spirit of god.
Jesus Christ is definitely always referred to as a separate being entirely, but he's also never described as a god, he's put in the same position as saints, he is the prophet, the son of god, not god himself, and people do not worship him, or at least the church never teaches that you should, like they do not worship the virgin Mary.

The holy trinity is not what people worship either anyway, Catholics only worship Jehova, and the holy trinity is more like the 3 most important parts of what makes up the whole system, rather than the 3 things that you worship.

>>2394320
>the trinity is biblical
lol

>>2393224
1 divine being. 1 essence.
Dipshit.

>>2395112
2 Corinthians 13:14
Colossians 2:9
John 1:14
John 10:30
Matthew 28:19
Luke 3:21-22

Shall I go on?

>>2393013
We don't, idolatry is wrong. Merely making images is not idolatry, though. Respecting holy people and asking them to pray for us is also not idolatry.

Also reminder that worship (latria) is an act of will, you can't worship something by accident.

>biblecucks
Ah yes, the notion that we will have to wait several millions of years while the life of a person after another is shown to us completely in detail year after year so it can be judged.

I guess the gnostic notion of: no gnosis, no heaven, instant entrance was too crazy.

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>>2395310
>Millions of years
Where did you get that number from? Your ass?

>>2395327
How many inhabitants has earth had and how long they lived?
Take your meds if you think there wont be a requirement for gnosis.

>>2395327
Not the age of the earth, the time spent reviewing the lives of every single unsaved human.

>>2395285
>Also reminder that worship (latria) is an act of will, you can't worship something by accident
So when people claim that atheists merely worship something else in the place of God, like themselves or money, they are wrong?

>>2395370
God is not bound by time, retard.
Time, space and matter are created by Him.

We live in linear time. God lives outside of that line. He can see our past, present and future all at once.

There is no `time´ as we understand it in the afterlife, simply eternity.

>>2395389
The judgement of works says everybody will see it, so there will be time, a total eternity while everybody is judged no less.

>>2395409
It will be in an instant.

Ever heard about those NDE stories where the guy had a life review? From birth to death in 1 second.

>>2395389
So let's say you're walking from one room to another of your golden mansion in of New Jerusalem.

Do you ever reach the other room?

>>2395389
>o-our perception of time will be like a god!

Sure m8 :^)

>>2395421
Yes, what kind of dumb question is that?

>>2395431
Do you appear there, or do you travel?

>>2395419
Trust me in the gnosis one kiddo, I doubt God is going to give you a memory of the whole humanity shitting diarrheically.

>>2395421
>>2395438
An analogy would be like its the Hyperbolic Time Chamber from Dragon Ball Z.

One day in this world is like 1 year in the HTC.

The Bible says that 1000 years for us is like 1 day to Him, and vice-versa.

We are talking about a different dimension/realm/afterlife here, something more real and vibrant than this physical creation. Trying to wrap your head around it is futile.

>>2395458
>One day in this world is like 1 year in the HTC.
Goten and Trunks would themselves experience the full year while Piccolo would experience the one day. Shifting the balance of time does nothing for those subjectively experiencing the extended timeline.

The question remains.

>>2395477
Time would not exist as we know it.

You know having fun makes time fly by so fast? Well multiply that by infinity, that is heaven.

You would live ``in the moment´´, but for eternity.

>>2395458
>>2395477
>using dragon ball z to illustrate your theological point

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL christfags

multiverse interpretation is bullshit and there is no other universes sorry :*(

>>2395379
If someone puts things like money, power, approval, etc. ahead of God then they aren't giving God the adoration He is due.

>>2395484
>You know having fun makes time fly by so fast?

the same reason taking amphetamine makes time fly by faster?

OMG TIME TRAVEL PILLS or... you know.. basic neurobiology

>MUH GOD MADE ME GO FAST LIKE SANIC GUYS

>and in the last day we will know who had the biggest dick
Yeah no
Gnosis
Besides, I've experienced it already.

>>2395484
So what about those who are not having fun? For example, those watching everyone else about to be damned while reviewing their lives, knowing they are somewhere on the chopping block up next?

And the perception of time in no way affects time itself. Again, consider walking from one room of the golden mansion to another. If it takes time, even if you ignore it, time passed.

>>2395507
>For example, those watching everyone else about to be damned while reviewing their lives
How do they know whose going to be damned?

>>2395498
Oh, sure. But remember, worship is not something that can happen by accident, as per >>2395285. Thus, atheists and the like are merely guilty of not affording God the respect due, not of worshiping something other than God. Because atheists don't believe in worship at all, and thus cannot do it at all as they do not intend to in the first place.

>>2395019
>Jesus Christ is definitely always referred to as a separate being entirely, but he's also never described as a god, he's put in the same position as saints, he

Are you kidding? Jesus's divinity was hammer constantly in Catholic school. Its in the basic prayers at mass

Bible: Sell all you have and give to the poor.
Gnostic gospel: Giving alms damages the spirit.

>>2395516
Because they were in Hell rather than in Heaven in the period between their death and the Last Judgement. After the Last Judgement, Heaven Earth and Hades pass away, to be replaced with the New Jerusalem and the Lake of Fire.

If you were in Hell, you know your name will not be in the Book of Life, and thus you will be in the Lake of Fire. Meanwhile. if you were in Heaven, you know your name was in the Book of Life, and you will inhabit New Jerusalem in an Edenic human body.

>>2395507
God is the perfect judge.

>>2395538
Doesn't answer the question.

>>2395536
>Because they were in Hell rather than in Heaven in the period between their death and the Last Judgement.
Yeah but what if they're let off on good behavior?

>>2395549
No scriptural source of such a thing, and most traditions do not allow for it. If you're a universalist, sure.

>>2395560
Samuel was brought back from the dead, where are all these ghosts hiding?

>>2395521
So is the virgin mary, that doesn't make it a figure of worship, not in the same way as god is.

>>2395586
They're like boxcars on a Ferris Wheel.

Book of Exodus, chapter 25.

>inb4 we don't live under the Law anymore
Matthew, chapter 5, verses from 17 to 20.

>>2395572
Anyone who died before the death of Jesus goes to Sheol. However, Sheol was divided into two sections, what was referred to as "Abraham's Bosom " and the abode of the unrighteous dead. After Jesus' resurrection, the righteous dead were taken into Heaven, while the unrighteous dead were taken into Hell. Between the Resurrection and the Last Judgement, those who believe in Jesus go to Heaven, those who do not go to Hell. After the Last Judgement, all inhabitants of Abraham's Bosom/Heaven are bodily reincarnated onto the New Jerusalem, while all inhabitants of the unrighteous abode/Hell or Hades are trapped in the Lake of Fire.

>>2395586
What? They were always clear that Mary is not divine in Catholic school, merely that she is the mother of God, but still beneath him in status. Nor will you find a single orthodox Catholic prayer that states her to be divine

>>2395606
"So the last will be first, and the first will be last."

>we will be judged because of our works
Which ones?
>giving to the poor
gospel of Thomas says giving to the poor is bad for your spirit.
>not canon
This isn't an adventure series where you decide a canon

>>2395624
Perhaps if people had been exposed to that concept they could have avoided many of the problems that accompany dogmatic Catholic programming.

>>2395620
That has nothing to do with whether Jesus or Mary are divine.

>>2395635
If Mary doesn't make it into the Kingdom of Heaven we're all doomed.

>>2395637
What are you talking about? Catholics believe Mary was so good she was just taken into heaven without dieing first. But they never taught she was equal to God or some sort of lesser Goddess

>>2395606
Jesus is always referred to as a man too. He is the son of god, but he is also just a man.

>>2395409
>works
A thief gets into heaven in the Bible, and his only work is telling some guy to shut up. How does that qualify as a work?

>>2395662
I am really starting to doubt you went to Catholic school.

the Nicene creed says Jesus is God and consubstantial to the father, that without him creation would not have happened. Anyone who even once paid attention in mass would know this.

>>2395671
I did, and even in my non-catholic schools that also had religion as an assignature because that's how schools are here, jesus is always referred to as just a man.

Never heard of him having anything to do with creation, just with salvation.

>>2395663
See
>>2395624

>>2395700
It's in the fucking gospels, my man.

Amazing

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>>2395624
>gospel of Thomas

>>2395684
"I believe in Jesus Christ the only son of God...
begotten not made consubstantial with the father through him all things were made."

Its said in every Catholic mass

>>2395736
There are ONLY 4 Gospels

>>2395742
Yes

>>2395742
Are you Catholic Christian?

>>2395751
I use to be

>>2395751
Catholics aren't Christian

>>2395771
so It´s night and I tell you this:
I hate mary,saints,angels and archangels?
What I should do?

>>2395778
Protestant are you?

>>2395780
How the fuck should I know? I'm not your councilor or you priest

>>2395787
emm..friendly advice..

>>2395784
Why?

>>2395795
Just asking...look history and then say something

>>2395803
>Just asking
Yes
>look history and then say something
What?

>>2395747
>>2395736
Do a miracle like your text says you can so we can tell real stuff from forgery.

>>2395809
I´m going to sleep but I recomend you to check for Early Church faith and teachings,whole history of church and early church fathers.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/albertlittle/this-one-quote-convinced-me-to-be-a-catholic/

>>2395815
Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
1 Corinthians 1:22-24

>>2395821
I already have read some early church fathers. I am not gullible, so the attempts of Catholic propagandists to turn them into papists will not work on me.

>>2395821
>church fathers.
Not inspired gospel, false teachings leading people away from god

>>2395825
I don't give a fuck about your verse as you did the same with the one I posted from the Gospel of Thomas.

>>2395849
That is because you are perishing. You do not believe because you have not been given by the Father to the Son.

>>2395868
I'm not though, I reached gnosis.
Why should I pay any attention to your mental diarrhea when I've experienced salvation myself?

>>2393013
Two children argue over whose imaginary friend is more powerful

>>2395889
Your gnosis cannot save you, for God in His wisdom saw that man would not know God through wisdom. Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

>>2395905
Your verses are lies, they say you can do miracles but when asked you excuse yourself with more verses.

>>2395889
>>2395905
"By the measure you judge", see you in hell.

>>2395914
You seek a sign. You will not receive it. Instead, I tell you that unless you believe that God has come in the flesh, you will die in your sins.

>>2395921
See
>>2395914

>>2393013
Us catholics dont literally worship the statue, the statue is just there to show us what we are worshiping.

>>2395934
See >>2395921

>>2395943
And you keep lying.
Theres no sign because you cant do it.

>>2395942
>the statue is just there to show us what we are worshiping.
Finally the fucking truth

>>2395958
There is no sign because it is not a request from God, for you to repent and believe, it is a command. If you disobey this command, you can expect no mercy.

>>2395963
Fuck off retard God gave me a sign when I experienced gnosis, then you come, lie and expect results.

>>2395742
I never said or heard such a thing.

I should point out that i'm not american or british and I don't speak english in my daily life.

>>2395974
It was a lying sign of demons. You believed it because you are not His sheep, for His sheep hear His voice and another they will not follow.

>>2395942
So you're worshipping the saint then?

>>2395986
Youre the liar, God is not with you so you cant do miracles.

>>2393013
I was raised Roman Catholic and even as a child, I never got confused or thought we were worshiping the saints or statues. It was made very clear that god was who we were worshiping. The saint's were more like important historical figures and the statues were just statues. It's like a politician having a portrait of George Washington in his office.

Also, think of the Trinity like an oreo cookie. You don't say I want the top cookie, cream, and bottom cookie, you just ask for an oreo, even though there are 3 distinct parts (God and Jesus are the cookies, Cream is the Holy Spirit btw).

>>2396252
You fucking heretic, that is blasphemous against the Trinity

It isn't idolatry, because it isn't claimed that the idols have any power.

>>2395499
>le science
kys

>>2396252
The Father, Son and Spirit are not "parts" of God, all three required to make a full God, rather they are fully God and are the whole of God in and of themselves

>>2396369
They are parts (personas, masks) of God.

>>2396374
No, they are not parts, nor are they "masks" of God. Each person is distinct and existed different to each other in eternity past. In the same way, if you are in the presence of the Spirit but not the Father or the Son, you are in the presence of God, not of 1/3 of God.

>>2396386
"I am in the Father and the Father in me", so God wore Jesus like a mask and used the Holy Spirit to work miracles in one of the infinite possible understandings.

>>2394530
>veneration of a superior individual who is closer to God
>that's worship

I disagree and I'm not even Catholic. According to this logic respecting dead soldiers is ancestor worship. You can't really be worshipping something unless you pledge service to it and respect it above all other things you respect. A lower step in the divine hierarchy doesn't meet these requirements.

>>2395458
>something more real and vibrant than this physical creation

Like the positive energy realm in d&d

>>2395526
Gnostic gospels contradict the Bible and each other, when they even make sense to begin with.

>>2395624
>gospel of Thomas says giving to the poor is bad for your spirit.

What kind of sociopathic asshole actually believes this? I hope you end up homeless and starving one day mister Ayn-Rand-Was-Jesus.

>>2396400
>so God wore Jesus like a mask and used the Holy Spirit to work miracles in one of the infinite possible understandings.
That's heresy. Not only are you dividing the substance, but that verse is about perichoresis.

>>2396410
>unless you pledge service to it
They do this
>respect it above all other things you respect
Then polytheism wouldn't exist. You can't do this with multiple things.

>>2396470
How is that, if I put on a mask we're both just made of atoms.

>>2396477
You do not share being with a mask, it is a different substance from you.

>>2396483
It's all matter and energy.

>>2396386
A persona (person) is a mask.

>We just pray to these extremely pious individuals to ask God in our name.

>>2396504
God is neither matter nor energy, neither are matter and energy substances
>>2396605
I am a person, I am not a mask

>>2396636
>God is neither matter nor energy, neither are matter and energy substances
"above all, through all and in you all"

>>2396648
>above all
That means He exists outside of creation, kiddo

>>2396739
"through all"

>>2396746
That means He works through all [of creation], kiddo.

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>>2394907
>If I chop your head off you don't suddenly become 2 retards do you?

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>>2393013
According to this logic, only Jews are doing this right.

>Christians: God + Jesus + Holy Spirit
>Catholics: Holy Trinity + veneration of saints and Mary
>Orthodox: Holy Trinity + veneration of saints and Mary + icons
>Islam: God + Muhammad + who knows what (jinns and shit)

So you're saying God is one and you shouldn't even venerate stuff?
Be a jew.
Seriously.

>>2396449
What doesn't make sense to you?
A spiritual writing from where you have to derive meditation techniques and so on?

>>2394525
No, but they have being. You cannot have personhood without being, as Catholic doctrine suggests. That's what the word subsist means you silly gosling.

>>2395019
Dumb
>Outside of the old testament god never comes to earth himself

What so only the Gospel? Also if you'received a trinitarian only God and the apostles do miracles in the New Testament

>you pray to them like you pray to your death relatives

Dueteronomy 18:11

>holy spirit and the father were never referred to as separate entities

You went to a scuffed school

>The holy trinity is not what people worship either anyway, Catholics only worship Jehova,

I think you somehow mixed up Christianity, the worship of Christ, with Judaism.

>>2395825
>LOL turns out we can't do miracles
>SHEEIIIITTT
>quick write some dogshit about how you can't ask for a sign

BAKA

>>2395963
Alright then fucking retard, why did God give the Israelis literally hundreds of signs but he hasn't given one where a video camera is around? Face it, you're being cucked by the Bible.

>>2398260
Muslims don't pray to Muhammad. Say what you will about the religion, but they are as monotheistic as the Jews.

>>2395597
And what of those like the Native Americans prior to Columbus?

>>2388468
The other one isn't even down yet.

>>2393013
Protestants aren't christian.

>>2398260
this

>>2393013
It comes from a time when the majority of the population could not read. Making images and tellign the stories behind these images was a reasonable substitute. The Church knew very well that this meant that some illiterates and more simpleminded people would start worshipping the statues and images instead. However, because these people meant well and just did not know any better the Church assumed these people would be forgiven for this sin.

There you have it.

>>2399189
While this explanation makes a lot of sense, I find it hard to believe they would just expect God to think idolatry was all good.

>>2398260
Jesus and the Holy Spirit ARE God

>>2398460
>You cannot have personhood without being
Amen. One being, three personhoods

>>2400420
We are God, I AM knot

>>2399528
Correct, that's why the Byzantine church had its iconoclam schisms in the 8th and 9th centuries.

How to spot false religions led by evil:
- Inquisitorial movements
- Child rape
- Hatred of human nature
- Everybody talks about miracles but can't do any
- Bad luck brought by a bad path is "a test"
- Bad luck brought by a bad path is a "mysterious way"
- Literal lack of abilities promised is a "lack of faith"

>>2400568
>Hatred of human nature
Human nature is sinful

>>2400575
Says who?
>a-a book

>>2400589
God, that's who

>>2400632
Proof?
>says so in the bible
Thats not God nor a source

>>2400426
#zing!