Why didn't paganism survive? What made Christianity so much

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>>2368144
luck

Christianity isn't compatible with other religions

>>2368146
Yeah, this, it basically boils down to them getting very lucky. Three points where they specifically lucked out were: 1. Roman authorities never engaged in anything more then sporadic persecution until the third century and 2.Constantine won at milvian bridge and 3. Julian forgot to wear his armor like a dumdum.

Change any of those three things and christianity would either not exist or be something more like judaism.

>>2368144
Paganism is survived, Judaism is Jewish paganism.

>>2368151
Judaism wasn't either, not by the time the romans rule over the jews anyway, the difference though is that the Jews were more directly and obviously threatening and the Romans in turned dropped the fucking hammer on them after repeated revolts.

You need to understand "pagan" was a term devised by Christians to describe rural folk who clung on to more primordial beliefs. Druidism didn't survive the pagan Roman suppression of it. It had nothing to do with Christianity. Hellenic paganism was already a shadow of its former self when compared to philosophical schools or eastern mystery religions.

Ultimately those components which formed Christianity were commanded by Christ himself to spread the word to the ends of the earth. Christians did just that. Paganism didn't die so much as it was assimilated into Christianity. Germanic paganism went through another beating during the reformation, followed by a general beating of all things religious during the enlightenment and then had a romantic revival in the 18th century.

>>2368144
Kings don't support them, instead of them they're supported Christianity and Islam

>>2368151
This. Either be a Christian (and even then it depends on what branch, because certain branches are considered heretical to others) or die. As simple as that. Islam did/does the same thing.

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>>2368144
Martyrdom is a very powerful thing, just look at Trump establishing himself as some kind of martyr against the media/establishment. Early Christianity operated like this.

When looking at religion throughout history, look at it as a ruler using tools tool.

Christianity had better political application and allowed for centralization. One God, stronger creed, stronger institutions, etc. These people could form more stable governments.

Useful aspects of paganism were kept as well.

>>2368144
My guess is it's a more abstract god.

>>2368176
>>Hellenic paganism was already a shadow of its former self when compared to philosophical schools or eastern mystery religions.
lol no. Hellenic polytheism was widely practiced and sincerely believed all over the empire up until theodosius ordered the persecutions. It had varying levels of intellectual sophistication as well, which allowed for both the poor and the wealthy to believe in it.

>>Paganism didn't die so much as it was assimilated into Christianity.
Oh? Is "assimilated" the word you are using for persecution and oppression? Because that is precisely what your faith did to non-believers the moment they took power.

>>2368201
>Hellenic polytheism was widely practiced and sincerely believed all over the empire up until theodosius ordered the persecutions.
And this included various eastern gods such as Cybele, right?

"Hellenic paganism" is not the same as Platonism, Stoicism, Epicurean ect. From my knowledge it wasn't sincerely believed all over the empire as you purport.

>>2368144
Religion probably can't survive indefinitely. People got bored of their 'pagan' religions so their attention was captured by the next big thing. People got bored of Christianity too.

Of course Christianity still thrives to some extent in South America, but that's only because they are slower to develop.

>>2368144
even ants would wonder why this gif is so tiny

>>2368214
>And this included various eastern gods such as Cybele, right?
There was a certain amount of religious syncreticism, yes.

>>"Hellenic paganism" is not the same as Platonism, Stoicism, Epicurean ect.
No, but that doesn't matter much. You had the smarter people adhering to neoplatonic ideas about the singular deity from which all over deities are manifestations of while the more average people carried on the assorted religious practices that they had carried on for millenia before hand.

>>From my knowledge it wasn't sincerely believed all over the empire as you purport.
Not in the sense that everyone offered sacrifice to zeus, athena or whoever in precisely the same way, no. But it was still something people believed in to one extent or another.

>>2368144
Kek because they outlawed paganism on pain of death.

Us Christianity was specifically marketed to the poorer masses. Hence why senators were the last convert.

>>2368144
a lot of factors, but I would argue the biggest ones being:

Universalizing: most religions are limited to the specific culture or ethnicity, as in that don't take on outside members and use their religious as part of their cultural identity.

Christianity changed all that, by being a faith that is open to all people regardless of origin or culture, this allowed it to grow at an exceedingly faster pace than ethnic religions that only grow as fast as the local population can reproduce.

the concept of eternal salvation: this is a hard to pass up in the minds of people who are concerned about what happens after death. the promise of eternal happiness in the kingdom of an all-creating god was much more appealing than being ferried to an underworld under the care of its denizen, or becoming one with the force of nature and life or whatever other local pagan belief promised.

Hierarchical structure: Having a system of cardinals/bishops/priests all under the leadership of a guiding hand kept the church from breaking in its infancy, being able to call counsels to establish what the universal tenants of faith are and to iron out what is and what isn't accepted kept the church itself cohesive and unified so that it didn't break out into multiple branch beliefs at the very beginning, which was a real threat seen with early Arianism.

After the church did split with the Orthodox and later Protestants, Christianity was already well established and past the point of being simply snuffed out like it was at the beginning.

Aggressive: missionaries, military conquest, Reconquista, etc, Christianity and the spread of the faith has expanded so aggressively since it became established just like Islam, to the point that spreading the faith alone became a perfectly justifiable reason to declare war and expand borders. smaller pagan religions for the most part didn't expand aggressively save for Rome, but even then religion wasn't a sole justification for Rome's expansion.

>>2368144

By the 4th century there was a clearly set hierarchy within a formulating Church which also received state blessing and financial support. The fact there were five major churches spread out among the Empire that maintained constant contact with one another meant that doctrine and scripture could be hammered out efficiently. With a more centralized means of authority than Pagan religions, it was able to spread more consistently and maintain its converts. When the schisms appeared the administrative authority behind each of the churches was powerful enough that they could be fiscally independent from one another. This competition helped spread the faith from the five churches in all directions and created a variety of Christians.

This centralized authority is also what allowed for reformations and schisms to occur in the first place. Even in the other Abrahamic religion, Islam, there is no centralized authority which does not spring from military authority over religious authority (i.e, if you are mighty enough to take over the country you must be blessed by God and therefore what you say is a valid interpretation of the word of God) and so for any reformation or schism to occur it must take place during a time where only a handful of figures are truly revered as authority figures in the religion. Islam and Paganism both adhere to decentralized forms of religious administration (which is effective in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia) and Christianity is centralized (effective in North Africa, Europe, Asia Minor- where civilization and administration already flourished)

>>2368321
>There was a certain amount of religious syncreticism, yes.
The same is true for Christianity. Just in a more subtle way.
>No, but that doesn't matter much.
It does matter. It's the difference between a fictional pagan interpretation where everyone was accepting of the state pagan cult and reality which was that many people where displeased.
>But it was still something people believed in to one extent or another.
Not the case.

>>2368326
>Hence why senators were the last convert.
SOME senators. Not every senator. Probably not even most.

>>2368360

Not him but senators were basically the last bastion of paganism, aside from villages up in the mountains.

>>2368144
Cucktianity is more intune with the natural pathological altruistic nature of white people.

>>2368144

Paganism survived and thrived in the Vatican. You call it Roman Catholicism.

It's the same paganism that's been plaguing mankind since the Flood.

>>2368171
More like Jewish atheism.

>>2368151
Light isn't compatible with darkness.

Christianity is an expansion oriented religion with a goal of trying to convert a lot of people. A lot of pagan traditions are oriented to a local tribe, and don't seek to convert others. Christianity ended up having the power of the romans behind it.

>>2368360
The few senators that did convert to Christianity did so mainly for political reasons. The Senate was the last hold out for paganism and were quick to point out that Rome's abandonment of their founding gods was the cause for their defeats. They wanted the altar of victory to be returned to the Senate.

>>2368476
>Christianity

Catholicism.

How can it be that people cannot understand this?

Jesus-12 disciples, not one. Not just Peter.

Pontifex Maximus = Emperor = Pope = Pontifex Maximus
Senate = College of Cardinals
Troops = Jesuits
Throne = Throne
Rome = Babylon = Rome

>>2368485
>The Senate was the last hold out for paganism and were quick to point out that Rome's abandonment of their founding gods was the cause for their defeats.
That's because it was an unpopular system. We're speaking particularly about the state pagan cult of Rome, not the various philosophy schools and mystery religions people embraced.

>>2368357
>>reality which was that many people where displeased
You really don't understand the way euro polytheist religion worked back then if you think people cared enough about differences in interpretation of deities and rituals to be anything more then slightly upset on occasion.

>>The same is true for Christianity. Just in a more subtle way.
I really don't care to be honest. Monotheism doesn't really appeal to me either way.

>>Not the case.
Wrong. The people called the gods and goddesses by different names depending on where they lived, but there was a general understanding that they all worshiped roughly similar deities.

>>2368144
>Why didn't paganism survive
Because it's false
>What made Christianity so much more appealing or effective than Hellenic paganism, Germanic paganism, druidism, etc.
Truth

>>2368511
>You really don't understand the way euro polytheist religion worked back then if you think people cared enough about differences in interpretation of deities and rituals to be anything more then slightly upset on occasion.
Plato was obviously upset at the "mainstream" interpretation.

>>2368497
It was Christianity in the Roman empire

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>>2368144

Early christianity was very effective at swaying the common folk because:

>Emphasized that it didn't matter how much money you have, you still get to go to heaven (if you believe)
>Christian rituals are very cheap to perform (baptism literally just requires water) whereas Pagan rituals tended to be much more elaborate and thus more expensive.

>>2368527
>hereas Pagan rituals tended to be much more elaborate and thus more expensive.
What exactly were some expensive pagan rituals?

>>2368171

Explain

>>2368530
Animal sacrifice

>>2368539
The Jews had animal sacrifice as well. Christianity was right to do away with it.

>>2368543
Christianity did away with it because it was fulfilled by the true sacrifice of the cross

The problem is that "pagan" beliefes are put in the same category as Christianity. They both are called "Religion" when relly they are super different. "Pagan" is the word christians used to denote anyone who wasn't christian, it was a very negatively charged word, like "nazi" today. If you worshipped Apollo or Aphrodite you didn't call yourself a "pagan" at all.

>>2368549

Whatever the theological reason for it, the result is the same: Christianity was able to achieve broad appeal in part because it was so simple (Read As: Inexpensive) compared to competing religions. Christianity doesn't have many rituals associated with it, and the ones that are there are quite simple and accessible. Baptism only requires water, which is everywhere. And prayer literally requires nothing. There is no requirement to sacrifice animals or participate in elaborate ceremonies. Many of the competing religions around that time were essentially cults that charges insane membership fees, whereas traditionally Christianity only requires 10% of a persons income to be donated to the church (and the poor are completely exempt from that).

>>2368516
No, no it was not.

The Christian Church for the first three hundred years remained somewhat pure and faithful to the Word of God, but after the pseudo-conversion of Constantine, who for political expedience declared Christianity the state religion, thousands of pagans were admitted to the church by baptism alone with out true conversion. They brought with them pagan rites which they boldly introduced into the church with Christian terminology, thus corrupting the primitive faith. Even the noted Catholic prelate and theologian, Cardinal Newman, tells us that Constantine introduced many things of pagan origin: "We are told in various ways by Eusebius, that Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own...The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison, are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church." An Essay On The Development Of Christian Doctrine, pp. 359, 360. This unholy alliance also allowed the continuance of the pagan custom of eating and drinking the literal flesh and literal blood of their god. This is actually how transubstantiation entered the professing church.

People just changed the names of their idols. Horus became Jesus. Isis became Mary. They still believed in Eat God, Be God. They still pray to a myriad number of "saints" for assistance.

>>2368569
Simple?

If it were simple, everyone would do it.

>>2368514
I meant people as a whole, not a few random cranks here and there, which is precisely what Plato probably was to the average person in his time. Also this is rather irrelevant to the Roman Empire as Plato was long dead by the time Augustus took power.

>>2368575
this.

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>>2368144
>so much more
>so much
>so

>>2368171
more like Jewish nihilism tbqh

>>2368575
Any source about Kyrie Eleison being of pagan origin?

>>2368144
The classic theocratic rule, buddy.

>>2368527
That last point is one I've never heard before but is a great point
It's also a reason Islam spreads like the fucking plague, you literally only have to say a phrase and you're in.

It's an organized religion with a religious head, holy book, and set of laws. The folk religions could differ wildly depending on where you went and had no codified laws or any real structure, it was very loose. Christianity brought order where there was none, same with Islam.

>>2368151
its pretty compatable with many hindu teachings and concepts actualy

>>2368144
>That gif
>Lost my shit
>reinstalled RTW:BI yesterday.

>>2368144
Simplistic demagoguery is more popular with plebs.

>>2368144

They had a pretty good idea of afterlife. Greek/Roman paganism you just milled around in Hades being miserable.

The Romans were also known for taking in different religious ideas so they could be changed relatively easily.

>>2368709
Cardinal Newman lists many examples of things of "pagan origin" which the papacy brought into the church "in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen: "in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen:" "The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; holy water; asylums [hermitages, monasteries and convents]; [pagan] holy-days, processions, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images, . . . and the Kyrie Eleison."--Cardinal J. H. Newman, An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, 1920 edition, p.373 [Roman Catholic].

>>2368575
>The Christian Church for the first three hundred years remained somewhat pure and faithful to the Word of God,
You mean having no coherent doctrine and being gnostics?

>>2372795
>people invent the term pagan to describe people who aren't the same religion as them
>some fuckwit 1500 years later call them pagans
Wew

>>2368709
>Kyrie Eleison

In his 1878 Essay on the Development of the Christian Doctrine John H. Newman wrote:

"The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holy days and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the east, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison, are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church."

It is interesting to note that John Newman was a Catholic prelate – this was not yet more Catholic-bashing by a Protestant.

(I wish Christians would "bash" Catholics. People are going to hell for believing the Catholic church will save them.)

>>2372810
No, I mean doing what Christians do.

Which of course you have zero information and zero interest.

>>2372816
>I don't know what "pagan" means, the post.

>>2368144
Most pagan religions are just belief structures inherent to a group of people, not part of a larger organized religion. They didn't have an organized resistance to prevent proselytization among the populace.

>>2372816
Here, I'll help you out.

heathen, ungodly, irreligious, infidel, idolatrous
"the pagan festival"

>>2372830
So being gnostic and having no coherent doctrine? That's what Christians were, kid.

>>2372840
>Christ family goes to festivals all the time in the Bible
>All religious festivals are pagan!
I think Islam is more your speed.

>>2372842
So being Christian and having nothing to do with the hellbound gnostics, junior.

>>2372851
Jewish festivals.

I think outright devil worship is more your speed.

>>2372795
>>2372826

Well Brigid was a goddess in Ireland before Christianity. Saint Brigid shares many of the goddess's attributes and her feast day was originally a pagan festival (Imbolc) marking the beginning of spring. Thus saint is a Christianization of the goddess.

>>2372851

The Jewish festival.

The pagan festival.

See the difference, kiddo?

>>2372856
Yes, all Catholic saints are pagan gods and goddesses, by definition.

>>2372856
Are you the person who asked for sources?

>>2372866

No

>>2372858
>thinks kikery supersedes anything
False Christian alert.

>>2372874
That's a shame. I went out of my way to find catholic sources.

>>2372890

Jesus is a Jew.

>>2372894
>t.Goldstein
Jesus is a Christian.

>>2372906

Was Buddha a Buddhist? Did Buddha follow the Buddha?

kek

Jesus is a Jew, and Jesus is God.

Not a Christian.

>>2372934
"Buddha" is title much like Christ and he spoke against religious doctrines in his time.
Jesus CHRIST is a Christian.

>>2372934
t.Christan Zionist

>>2372950
Jesus didn't worship himself. He worshiped Yahweh, making him a Jew.

>>2372950

You don't know what a Christian is if you think Jesus is a Christian.

kek

What a dope.

>>2372955

Jesus is a Jew.

>>2368144
>What made Christianity so much more appealing or effective than Hellenic paganism, Germanic paganism, druidism, etc.?
Offering/threatening to send people to heaven or hell based on adherence to the religion. Pagan religions were a lot more chill, maybe you'd get something like that if you were really good or really bad but most people just got something in the middle. Notice how Islam has had similar success with the same strategy.

>>2373005
Islam is uniquely "convert or die". They're proud of it. They're proud of killing people on the spot if they refuse to convert.

That's not like any other religion on earth.

That's purely satanic.

>>2372988
Are your calling Jesus a hypocrite? Saying he didn't follow his own teachings?

Jesus was a Christian who KNEW he was the messiah and had a way of practice Christians emulate.

>>2368144
Christianity has an established hierarchy, unity, and bureaucratic systems, paganism does not.

Wasn't early Christianity just an esoteric Jewish sect?

>>2368144
the kikes and their scheming

>>2368144
>What made Christianity so much more appealing or effective than Hellenic paganism, Germanic paganism, druidism, etc.?
The fact that you and your family would probably be killed by Christians if you didn't convert.

>>2368575
Hislop pls go

>>2373159
More like a communist Jewish sect.

The gnostic parts were gentile innovations.

>>2373763
There is absolutely nothing communist about Christianity you retarded /pol/ack

>>2373040
>"Olaf sent a messenger to him, asking Sigurd to come over to his ship as he wanted a word with him.

>'I want you and all your subjects to be baptised,' he said when they met.

'>If you refuse, I'll have you killed on the spot, and I swear that I'll ravage every island with fire and steel.'

>The Earl could see what kind of situation he was in and surrendered himself into Olaf's hands. He was baptised and Olaf took his son, called Hvelp or Hundi, as a hostage and had him baptised too under the name of Hlodvir. After that, all Orkney embraced the faith. Olaf sailed east to Norway taking Hlodvir with him, but Hlodvir didn't Live long and after his death Sigurd refused to pay homage to King Olaf."
The Orkneyinga Saga Ch 12

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>>2373770
Except literally all of it.

Extremely early Christianity was basically the original Kibbutz movement.

>>2373949
>>>/pol/

>>2373952
>>>/USSR/

>>2373952
I don't know if you people are for or against communism, christ, or /pol/ at this point

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>tfw to smart for atheism

If you read much of Roman history, you would see that paganism had been completely devalued in the lives and values of the common people.

During the late empire, there were all sort of cults, from Mithraism to Sol Invictus that did have a some sort monotheistic streak in them, but were little more than oriental cults that involved singing, dancing and some antiquated rituals.

Paganism as understood by ancient Greeks and Romans of the early Republic, as being connected to land,worship and myth was completely abandoned by the late Romans who entirely preferred this salad mix of all kinds of gods to fulfil any kind of shallow religious desire and superstition. So the imported Isis from egypt, Mithra from Persia, Elagabalus from Syria etc.

This second religious pagan revival was entirely pathetic compared to Christianity that offered a clear world view as an answer when shit was going bad for the Romans.

>>2374187

Also its worth noting that when it came to a "pagan reformation" which was sort of initiated by Julian as to re-design paganism as a form of neo-platonism, it entirely failed to adress real pragmatic questions concerning sin, evil the afterlife etc.

Neo-platonism as popular as it was at the time, reinforced more the Christian doctrine which was purely ascetic at the time and faced little dogmatic opposition from other religions. The promise of afterlife in exchange for earthly submission to the one God, as alien as it seemed to the ancient pagan Greeks, to the inhabitants of the Roman orient it seemed entirely natural and and compatible with neo-platonism/neo-Pythagorean approval of frugality, asceticism and spirituality/morality involving going beyond the material plane.

>>2368165
>luck
>not the hand of God himself
You'll find any excuse to shoehorn the divine right out of things because it means you're allowed to be a 400 lbs hacker.
>>2368144
Paganism did survive, just not in areas where the ficki ficki Nords went and the hyper secular Romans killed people for not following their "gods" of war and malice. The Celts worshiped the living God.
Christianity is effective because its true, it only follows that a divine being would evolve in men's minds and lives, and so only a tribe which is extremely xenophobic would preserve the true conception and be "chosen" and carry on the message of the proto-divine. We owe God to the Jews. Notice how Turkic Jews have a very very similar conception of God despite never coming into any contact with the HebeJew.
>>2368151
>>2368472
got heem
>>2368575
>Christianity is a culture and not a singular message about the nature of mortality and immortality
It's like you are trying to be retarded, on purpose....
>>2372894
Jesus had no Jewish blood just as a surrogate mother has no share in passing her lineage to her surrogate child.
>>2373060
>The Christ is really a little Christ
Jesus isn't a hypocrite, you're just retarded.
I think you two gents are arguing from different premises.
>>2373159
>>2373763
>>2373770
>>2373949
>Communism is institutionalized Charity
>implying The Christ didn't abhor institutionalized virtues of any kind
Christ could appeal to the Communists because he asks beyond what law demands, he asks for a law of the heart in addition to the ones in the court house. Yet Christ also appeals to the Conservative because he defends private property and is against thievery and state sponsored charity. You could not give if you did not have.
>>2374239
>>2374187
>everything is neo-platonism
>its just superstition
Low IQ Redditorr detected.

>>2368339
>>2368349


While I have seen this claim that clerical hierarchy was one of the main reasons why Christianity was spread, and is promulgated a lot in historical literature, I am doubtful if this was true for the period of early Christianity spread out which was loosely about 50-300 ad.

There were certainly bishops and dioceses during that period. But there is no real testimony that they performed a theological or administrative role. There is also the case that Paganism at the time had a huge clerical hierarchy that extended all of the way to the cult of the Emperor, the virgin Vestas, the College of Pontiffs and the thousands of other cults which had to toe the line with Roman state religion. This is why there was also enormous Roman paranoia at the time concerning religions drifting away from state paganism like Judaism and Christianity


The third and fourth centuries in my opinion belong entirely to the ascetic, intellectual, monkish part of Christianity.

The examples of Tertullian and Origen are obvious. Even more astounding is that during this era some upper class Romans begun embracing Christianity, in an anecdote it is said that Alexander Severus brought Origen to council him.

We cannot know why Christianity spread so quickly during this time, but I think it was more the intellectual development that attracted pagans to it, rather than wholesale conversion.

>>2374309

>Low IQ Redditorr detected.

What the fuck are you even talking about retard?

I am specifically referring to late period Roman empire and Julian's attempts at pagan revival/reformation.

>>2368472
Zoroaster please.

>>2368144
Christianity is real thus it will always win.