What was the real story of Troy? Did the Turks of the iliad really

>>2350180
>t*rks

>>2350180
We have no idea but oddly enough the Trojan Horse trick actually makes sense in the context of historical Greek cultures

>Turks
There were no Turks in Asia minor in this period of history.

Troy was real, it got sacked & burned twice or so. It was populated before the "Bronze age collapse", but not afterward, when Homer wrote it was a ruin. Trojan war happened but Homer's stories are clearly embellished like every oral history.

>>2350180
Troy was a little shithole with like 3000 inhabitants at best but it did have nice walls.

>>2350180
they knew about turkish hospitality and their love of horses. greeks simply abused it.

>>2350367

The walls of troy were damaged by an earthquake, and then followed by evidence of fire and attack. Poseidon is the god of earthquakes, and one of his symbols is the horse.

>turks
They were greeks dumbass
The war in itself probably happened but its events were exagerated by Homer

>>2350486

They were more likely related to the hittites, and spoke some kind of luwian.

>>2350486
They were GREEKS YOU SAY???

The only document found there is a LUWIAN seal, and to my knowledge all the documents found in Western Anatolian settlements and monuments (such as the popular royal rocky wall carvings) are in Luwian... I find hard to believe they were the odd ball there.

There is also the mystery of why the people of the nearby island of Lemnos spoke a STRANGE LANGUAGE RELATED TO ETRUSCAN... But that is a problem for another time (and we're talking about documents from 600 bc solet's not get crazy over them)

It's crazy how much culture has come from the sacking of one small city.

>>2350537
It wasn't even the biggest one in Western Anatolia, some settlements further south/inland were three times as big, but Troy was also mentioned by the Hittities a lot for some reason

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>>2350502
>There is also the mystery of why the people of the nearby island of Lemnos spoke a STRANGE LANGUAGE RELATED TO ETRUSCA
>WE WUZ TROJANS

Too bad people are still falling for Virgil's propaganda.

In other news, the British also claimed to be descended from Trojan refugees:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brutus_of_Troy

Brutus of Troy's name was supposedly used to name the island of Britain, a corruption of " Brutain." And you thought Afrocentrism was bad..

Also supposedly descended from Torjans: the Carthaginians, but that one at least seems vaguely plausible.

>Turks
Turks are not the Trojans; the Turks didn't even step out of the Steppe until after Rome fell

>>2350567
Are you retarded???

Google: Lemnos stelae you dumb turd, it's a legitimatem ystery. Etruscans are extinct themselves so I'm not claiming shit.

>>2350567
>but that one at least seems vaguely plausible.

It really doesn't seem Carthaginians were Phoenicians who had been in the Levant since at least a millenium before Troy was sacked in the late bronze age.

>>2350367
How does it make sense?

>>2350567

The Roman Trojan origin myth is much older than virgils aeneid.

>>2350627
Daily reminder that Etruscans called themselves Dardanians.

Daily reminder that Egyptians name the allies of the Hittities in the battle of Kadesh and among them there are the people of the land of DRDNY (DARDANIA, C'MON!!!)

>>2350567
Why the obsession of claiming descent from a group of people that got completely btfo? would have been better to claim descent from the victors.

>>2350627
Daily reminder that Etruscans called themselves Dardanians.

Daily reminder that Egyptians name the allies of the Hittities in the battle of Kadesh and among them there are the people of the land of DRDNY (DARDANIA, C'MON!!!) and the Lycians who were allied with the Trojans too during the TROJAN WAR

>>2350634
List of peoples who thought they descend from the Trojans:


Etruscans
Romans
Sicilians
Sardinians
Brits


Anybody else?

>>2350634

Well remember that the romans LOVED greek shit, especially around the time rome was founded. They wanted to be tied to Greek culture, but didn't want to be actually greek. Plus, it gives them legitimacy to claim to be from an ancient line chosen by Jupiter to be great.

>>2350563
its in a very strategic position

>>2350693
Strategic for what?

No one cared about the black sea, some thing Myceneans didn't ever venture that because Mycenean objects in the areas around the black sea are so scarce that could be all easily explained as arrived from indirect trade

>>2350646
According to Snorri, the Norse gods were originally Trojans who fled north after the war.

>>2350705
weren't we talking about the Hittites?

>>2350634

The way they saw it, the line of Dardanus came back to Italy, and since Italy took over greece they are the real victors.

>>2350726
They couldeasily reach Hittitie lands by the Southern route and so they did, Mycenean pottery is widely found in Western and Southern Anatolia, even in Cilicia, they colonized Western Anatolia (Milawanda/Miletus, Apasa/Ephesus, Rhodes) and most likely Cilicia where they became known as the Denyen/Ahhywana

>>2350572
I'll take 'who were the huns' for 1000$ Alex

>>2350497
>>2350502
Greeks extensively colonized western Anatolia in thst period
If they werent ethnic greeks they most certainly were influenced by their culture

>>2350809
They colonized South Western Anatolia.

All scholars agree that Troy itself was an indipendent city and in fact Hittities speak of it as a city state, also extensively is a big word...Milawanda was most likely alsoinhabited by native Carians

>>2350478
holy shit

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>>2350478
>>2351122

Did homer know that the Trojans weren't greek, but chose to change the story any way?

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>>2350502
>There is also the mystery of why the people of the nearby island of Lemnos spoke a STRANGE LANGUAGE RELATED TO ETRUSCAN... But that is a problem for another time (and we're talking about documents from 600 bc solet's not get crazy over them)
SEA PEOPLE
E
A

P
E
O
P
L
E

>>2350567
>Also supposedly descended from Torjans: the Carthaginians, but that one at least seems vaguely plausible.
I think it's more or less undisputed that Carthage was a colony of Tyre.

>>2350567
>>There is also the mystery of why the people of the nearby island of Lemnos spoke a STRANGE LANGUAGE RELATED TO ETRUSCA
>>WE WUZ TROJANS
>Too bad people are still falling for Virgil's propaganda.
Etruscans were not Romans. They didn't even speak an Indo-European language.

>>2350610
Battlefield trophies and big temporary structures as offerings to the Gods were an actual Greek war-time tradition. Capturing an enemy's was the ultimate troll move.

>>2351405
It was fairly common for Greek writers to equate prominent foreign Gods with Greek ones so them being backed by Apollo and such in the story doesn't mean much about their real culture, other than that they had a God at least one Greek thought sounded like Apollo.

>>2351471

Ok, but Homer said they shared literally every god. Like Aeneas even being the son of Aphrodite.

>>2351520
Again, a fairly common Greek practice. Many of them thought they were all the same Gods but different people called them different names.

>>2350646
>Sardinians
What? Never heard of it.

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>>2350180
>Turks of the iliad

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>>2350478
one layer of troy was damaged by earthquake, one layer was damaged by fire and evidence of bodies with arrowheads.

troy wasn't one city it was a dozen cities built one on top of the other.

>>2350430
>when Homer wrote it was a ruin

illon was a greek colony in homer's day and continued to be inhabited to ~200BC where it would be abandoned until roman times.

>>2350646
Normans
Franks

>>2353105
Yes, the so called Iliesi were said to be Trojan colonists by the Greeks, according to them their name came from Ilion (Troy)

>>2351471
Anatolian peoples such as the Hittities DID wirship Apollo, he's mentioned as Apuluna or some other similar name in Hittitie texts

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>>2351471
>Implying Greeks gods are not copied from near east

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>>2350190
>>2350367
Yes, Turks

>>2351459
>>2350610

Allegedly what happened was someone snuck in in the middle of the night through the sewers, Odysseus I believe, and stole and destroyed a small wooden horse figurine that was really sacred to Athena I think it was. They made the claimed that the bigger trojan horse was made as a sacrifice to Athena for their wrongdoing and for safe travel back.

That's why it sounds plausible that the Trojans would want the Horse so they could get back Athena's horse and to damage the odds of them returning home safely.

>>2350180
Why did the Trojans fight outside their walls in that movie? I know the movie is historically shit in general, but is that an actual valid tactic?

>>2353736
. . . were they supposed to invite the enemies inside and fight them in the city?

>>2353783
No, they were supposed to use those massive walls Troja was famous for and stand on them and throw shit down at pathetic Greeks

>>2353809
The Achaeans spent 9 years doing a siege where it seems that not that many Trojans came out to attack until they realize Achilles wasn't fighting. Realistically, they would've died from the lack of supplies. It was common to send out forces to an approaching sieging army to attack any vulnerable points as long as you had a realistic escape plan.

>>2351544
In a way that's surprising tolerant and progressive.

>>2353263
>>2353297
I knew that about Artemis and Aphrodite, didn't know that about Apollo. My bad.

>>2353699
Poseidon I'm pretty sure, not Athena.

>>2353736
>Why did the Trojans fight outside their walls in that movie? I know the movie is historically shit in general, but is that an actual valid tactic?
Depends on the situation. Enemies are pretty hesitant to assault impenetrable walls (which was the case with their tech) but at the same time you don't necessarily want to leave them free reign of the country side.

>>2354573
>Realistically, they would've died from the lack of supplies.
Or just disease. Imagine makeshift latrines overflowing with 9 years of shit.

>>2354667
In a way. Herodotus actually claims the Egyptians have a privileged theological position because they remembered more Gods than any other people.

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>>2350705
It's right near the mouth of the dardanelles for one

>>2355363

No, Odysseus and Diomedes had that night time sneak about where they stole the palladium which was a wooden statue of athena.

The part about the Trojan Horse is written like a bad movie plot anyways. The people of Troy are already suspicious as fuck about it and want to burn it right then and there, but some cop-out asshole convinces them they should party instead and they all go "lol ok"

>>2350468
>3000 inhabitants at best
>implying this isn't a megalopolis in bronze age numbers

>>2353511

>WE WUZ TROJANZ AND SHIET

>>2350567
Co-opting mythology for the sake of legitimacy was really common in the ancient world, so much so that commanders often had chroniclers come along on campaigns with them to conjure up parallels between their campaigns and mythological figures.

The Greeks also kept conveniently shifting around the "official" locations of Hercules' feats as they colonized the Mediterranean, as it supposedly legitimized their colonies. And even though the Carthaginians descended from a separate culture, it didn't stop generals like Hannibal from working very hard to legitimize his campaigning by co-opting the Herculean tales.

>>2350646
Through the Romans, the Lithuanians. There was a very prominent family in the Medieval era which claimed descent from the emperors.