The Papacy is neither biblically supported, nor historically.

>>2348972
>historically supported

The fuck are you talking about?

>>2348972
How do you prove an opinion wrong? It all depends on how you interpret the bible and the early church councils

>>2348975

Donation of Constantine was a forgery, for one.

>>2348979

>It all depends on how you interpret the bible and the early church councils

No it doesn't because there is no interpretation that doesn't involve mental gymnastics and blatant falsehoods that supports it.

>>2348986

>No it doesn't because there is no interpretation that doesn't involve mental gymnastics and blatant falsehoods that supports it.

Well its a religion so that goes without saying

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>>2348991

>>2349001
Is anyone surprised the original fedorians who can't even feel the divine are mentally unbalanced?

>>2349001
>behaviors such as 'a preference for logical beliefs'...could be responsible

"And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven." -Matthew 16:18-19

>>2349014

Nobody should be.

>>2349025

"logical" beliefs in the autistic atheist mind are anything but.

>>2349036

Wrong. Peter is not the rock. Read the Bible.

>>2349040
Peter literally means "rock".

>>2349041
lol, BTFO

>>2348972
Explain why you think so first.

>>2349041

No it doesn't.

>>2349053
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%A0%CE%AD%CF%84%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek

>>2349051

Because they are the same as pharisees, valuing tradition over scripture and regularly ignoring the commandments.

On top of regularly illicitly acquiring temporal power.

>>2349060
Are you the same one that made the thread about Christians being modern Sadducees?

>>2349060
you don't need a donation of constantine to fill the power vacuum that happens when you're the only institution left standing when the visigoths pay a visit to "borrow" your civilization

>>2349056

>the New Testament makes it abundantly clear that Christ is both the foundation (Acts 4:11, 12; 1 Corinthians 3:11) and the head (Ephesians 5:23) of the church. It is a mistake to think that here He is giving either of those roles to Peter.

https://www.gotquestions.org/upon-this-rock.html

>>2349070

No

>>2349071

Doesn't matter. It was an earthly power grab

>>2349060
Actually Pharisees valued the 613 commandments more than God.

>>2349072
so did Jesus actually mean then when he
-renamed Simon to Peter (latin for "rock")
--when renaming is kind of a Big Deal in Judaism
-said "upon this rock I will build my church"
-gave Peter the Keys of Heaven, and the power to bind and loose
-said "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"

like idk, you prots tend to take an autistically literal reading of the bible, except for Matthew 16 and the Last Supper narratives.

>>2349076
>>2349060

Actually your both making strawmen to attack when peoples actual spiritual beliefs are far more complex. But you cant look at other religions with even the pretense of neutrality because you're so deep in your own bullshit

>>2349075
so what would you do if barbarians looted your city and destroyed everything but the Church?

>>2349082

>Caring about Latin

>>2349085

I don't do hypotheticals from papist devils.

>>2349138
>not caring about how language works

wow you must be stupid or something. typical for prots tho, guess I can't hold it against you

>>2349152

>Caring about a language Jesus didn't use
>Needs to use irrelevant languages to justify his position

>>2349157
>"didn't use"

I think you're forgetting what language the empire that ruled over Judea in Jesus's time spoke.

>>2349200
Jesus spoke Aramaic and the gospels were written in Greek

>>2349200

see >>2349210


retard

>Papists are big Roman dumb dumbs
>But I'm totally part of the true church because I follow the ideas of a an antisemite who was buttmad he couldn't get his duck wet who lived thousands of years after Jesus

Protestants are weird.

>>2349254

>Ad hom instead of supporting your position with biblical/historical evidence

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>>2349269

>>2349282

nice source

>>2349290
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_(given_name)

from here. First thing that came up on a google search for "Peter in Aramaic"

protties BTFO utterly and completely

http://www.drbo.org/difficult.htm

>>2349294

>wikipedia

>>2349298

mistranslations, try again.

>>2349312
>>wikipedia
How does it differentiate from your sources? What are your sources that say peter doesn't mean rock? The answer is a protestant website claiming it means pebble or some other complete and utter bullshit.
http://www.behindthename.com/name/peter

http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Peter.html#.WJ9ew9G5-Hs

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>>2348972
We can't, because you're right
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zghMbjv3b8&t

>>2349298
wew this is really bad surface-level argumentation

>>2349338
This website or this whole thread?

>>2349347
The website

>>2349352
wrong answer

It is historically supported, but not in the way you think i is, there is a very good reason why the papacy came to be so powerful, but it might be obsolete
ask me and I'll tell you

>>2348972
What are ya gonna do cunt? Retrieve Peter's remains from the basilica? I'd like to see you try cunt

>>2349361
>It is historically supported
Peter was not the pope
Peter was one of several elders in the church at Rome

>>2349369
don't draw conclusions before you know what I'm talking about
again, ask me and I'll tell you, I won't put effort into something if there's no interest.

>>2349358
no u

>Protestants

>>2349378
they never cease their schisms

>>2349374
>don't draw conclusions before you know what I'm talking about
What I said are factual statements
>ask me and I'll tell you
Go ahead

>>2349378
>>2349380
>not an argument

>>2349388
you hate christianity and want to break it up into smaller denominations. I get it.

>>2349395
Catholics aren't Christian

>>2349396
>those people who believe in jesus aren't christian
whatever man.

>>2349400
Christians believe that justification is by faith alone
Catholics do not

>>2349400

Catholics don't believe in Jesus anymore than Muslims do.

>>2349405
>>2349409
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgQ2wiTefmQ

>>2349405
I don't think the bible even says that.

>>2349409
that's a complete lie. they believe he's the son of god. you guys just like believing in propaganda.

>>2349427

No, they are pagans, their Jesus is not the Christian Jesus. Just like the Muslim Jesus isn't our Jesus.

>>2349427
>I don't think the bible even says that
It does
Therefore, having been justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
Romans 5:1

>>2349434
>Therefore, having been justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
>Romans 5:1

How does this say that you can reach heaven by faith alone. This just says "peace with god"

>>2349440
Peace with God is access to heaven

>>2349432
based on what?

>>2349434
faith without works is a dead faith. you know this.

>>2349444
>Peace with God is access to heaven
Where does it say this

>>2349434

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? [James 2:20]

>>2349445

Based on the fact that they worship Mary and the Saints and therefore cannot be Christian.

>>2349445
>>2349451
Justification is by faith alone, but not a faith that is alone

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>>2349454

>>2349454

Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? [James 2:24]

>>2349453
that's just not true. you believe in lies. the devil is a liar, be careful who you listen to.

>>2349453
>worship Mary and the Saints
I'm gonna need a definition of worship and citations

Why are Protestants so obsessed with Catholics?

>>2349463

>that's just not true
>as he prays to anyone but God and burns incense for statues

>>2349466
We all just want to solve these arguments and be one again! We could usher in a new age of greatness.

This will never happen though. We are all too stubborn.

>>2349465
>pray to someone who isn't god
>some how not polytheism

>>2349474
Prayer isn't inherently worship

>>2349434
We are saved by faith alone. But faith WILL produce good works, if not, then it's not true faith.

>>2349479
Prayer is an act of worship

>>2349498
Why?

>>2349382
sure here it is(this might get long and my memory might be a little shaky)

the only reason the pope came to being was due to juridic reasons.

You see during roman times there were numerous christian communities qnd those communities would often go to their local bishop with their conflicts and that bishop would serve as arbiter, the communities became more and more numerous

it was really a thorn in the eye of the emperors, who were doing serious juridic reforms at the time, that there was a whole system of law they had no control over, so they decided to incorporate it into their system.

I won't get into the specifics of it, but it was a serious progress, long story short christianity was recognized as an official religion(now people say it became THE state religion, no) a system was put into place to determine who was bishop and who wasn't.

A bishop of rome also came into being, as did bishops for many other areas.
I believe he was one of the patriarchs, which were nothing more than the supreme courts for christian law

fast forward a bit, rome's gone and the byzantines lost italy.

-At one point Gregory ii seizes rome and the surrounding area during a dispute with the byzantine emperor declaring it to be annonaria(dunno if spelled right) needed for him to do "good works" which he wouldn't be able to do otherwise because he couldn't rely on the byzzies anymore. Pope now has rome.

-Pope Leo III crowns charlemagne holy roman emperor, further establishing independence from the emperor.

fast forward further to the investiture controversy, which ends with the bishops getting their own courts over feudally fragmented europe, major victory and results in bishops being able to keep annonaria they held. this is not similar to roman bishop law no, this is exclusively about the clergy

1/2

>>2349491
How can faith be alone if there are good works? You are basically admitting that there are both faith and good works and thus can't be saved by faith alone. Because faith alone is alone without works.

>>2349458
James is using justified to speak of external proof of preexisting internal justification
Hence why James 2:18 says "Show me your faith apart from works, and I will show you my faith by my works". This is also why James uses the metaphor of death, because the faith which does not justify is a false faith but can be called faith nonetheless. Likewise when I die my corpse can be called me but it will not truly be me as I will go to be with the Lord
>>2349491
Amen

>>2349508
Faith alone means that faith is the only thing in the category of 'that which justifies', it does not mean that a lone "faith" justifies.

>>2349504
Now comes the important part

priests become celibate, testament is reintroduced as it has been absent from western europe for hundreds of years as a logical consequence of a lack of heirs

commonfolk want this too, not only that, normal courts(which often just consisted of one feudal lord, who might even be a farmer of a really small domain, so not much impartiality) were very bad so they saw the clergy, obviously men of God, as the people to go to, the problem is however, their courts aren't meant for them.
So what do people do? They donate to the clergy to make their matters church matters!

This way they get access to testaments among other things, however this puts pressure on the clergy, who develop an appeal system to deal with all these new matters coming in. The head of that appeal system becomes the pope, because you know, he's the bishop of rome.

Dealing with all these matters forces the churches to become more and more organized, they become more and more one church(which they technically were), a true organization so they can deal with all these new responsibilities, and the all-power of the catholic church is born. The pope comes to sit at the top of the hierarchy of it all.
Scriptural justification was a non-factor, unless it came to the Schism and the protestant reformation.

>>2348972
>The Papacy is neither biblically supported

It is, but even if it weren't it isn't like Christianity is based on the bible.

>nor historically

Now that's just silly

>>2349504
>>2349531
I think OP meant historically supported as coming from God

>>2349540
>it isn't like Christianity is based on the bible
True Christianity is
>Now that's just silly
The church at Rome was ruled by a plurality of elders until about 140. Peter thus could not have been pope, and this fact completely undermines the foundation of the papacy.

>>2349543
that requires some backward logic, he even mentioned the donation of constantine in a later post here >>2348986 it's clear what he means
what I wrote is true, it's the reason for papal primacy, other than rome being such a legendary city to represent

>>2349550
>>it isn't like Christianity is based on the bible
>True Christianity is

But Christianity came before the bible

>>2349550
>The church at Rome was ruled by a plurality of elders until about 140

Citation needed, the Church Fathers say otherwise.

>>2349550
>True Christianity is
Epic no true scotsman

>>2349556
>But Christianity came before the bible
So? The apostles are dead, and even then it was based on the Old Testament
>Citation needed, the Church Fathers say otherwise.
The ones that came later did yes, but there is evidence of this fact in Hermas, Clement and Ignatius, as well as the New Testament

>>2349210
Jesus is God you stupid proddy, he has knowledge of all languages.
>>2349269
>historical evidence
Doesn't exist;

>>2349561
>LE EPIN LOGICAL FALLIES BRO

gb2 reddit

>>2349561
fallacy fallacy

>>2349571
>Doesn't exist
So why would you be a papist?

>>2349072
>gotquestions.org

idiot

>>2349573
>it's an I don't know what a fallacy is episode

>>2349570
>So? The apostles are dead

But they appointed successors called bishops

>but there is evidence of this fact in Hermas, Clement and Ignatius, as well as the New Testament

Are you sure? Because Clement and Ignatious seem to affirm what Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox believe about bishops

>>2349579
>everybody that disagrees with me must be this thing i dont like!

Don't you have some scripture to ignore?

>>2349589
>But they appointed successors called bishops
And these bishops are also called presbyters, there is no difference between the offices. Are you claiming your bishops recieve revelation?
>Are you sure?
Yes. Hermas is directed to the elders, of whom Clement is secretary, Clement exhorts Corinth to reinstate their elders, and Ignatius, rather than the usual greeting of a single bishop, instead greets her which "presides in the place of the region of the Romans". In addition to this, Peter, who was at Rome, says he is a fellow elder.

>>2349369

Peter was the Bishop of Rome you utter twat.

Guess what that position came to be called.

>>2349629
He was one of several other bishops of Rome. He did not hold the office alone, he shared it with others at the same time.

>>2349550
>True Christianity

there's literally a logical fallacy known by that particular phrase you know

Read my two part post, I still see people discussing 'bishop of rome' here without understanding its real significance in this matter

>>2349636
>he shared it with others at the same time

*cough*

>>2349658
You wanna say something kiddo?

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>>2348972

>talking shit about the self-confirmation of a Chuch formed to worship a God whose name is self-confirmation

Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh, dipshits. Self-confirmation is the only evidence necessary. Also I'm pretty sure there's some bullshit about how Peter was supposed to be the rock upon which Christ's church was build. That's kind of the entire concept the Catholic Church bases its legitimacy around: The Legacy of Peter.

>>2349636
his position in the early church doesn't matter, all that matters is his position in the Roman Law System, I'm >>2349656

>>2348972
hierarchy is sign of culture, therefore Papacy is a good thing.

>>2349675
The position of Peter is extremely relevant to the question of a divine origin for the papacy

>>2349672
The RCC contradicts scripture

>>2349688
It is irrelevant to the reason the pope is important, and should be treated that way. Because if you approach it from how the early church works you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to the pope's origin and your not taking actual stabs at the catholics, you're fighting them on their own turf. read my two part post and you'll understand.

>>2349683
pedophilia is a sign that it is not

>>2349697

What, you think contemporary church doctrine isn't going to contradict ancient law? Shit man the New Testament contradicts the Old Testament. Even then the RCC is in good company: Every single church that preaches out of a Nu-Age English translation is contradicting scripture.

I grew up around a lot of different kinds of Protestants and a handful of Catholics. I've seen my fair share of Churches. If half the shit I've seen from denominations like the Pentecostal and their off-shoots is even remotely tolerable the RCC should have nothing to fear.

>>2349716

you're actually more likely to find pedophiles in the public school system than the Catholic priesthood

but protestants don't actually care about protecting their kids, they only care about splintering into as many denominations as possible and then turning into Mormons.

>>2349720
>the New Testament contradicts the Old Testament
No it doesn't

>>2349736
The only reason you might not find a pedophile priest is that they are well concealed

>>2348972
Agreed.
T. Orthodox

>>2349744

im srry were profs

>>2349736
The RCC is the greatest tool Satan ever invented in his war against God

>>2349746
Does your church teach that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone?

>>2349741

Boy you must enjoy being a blind idiot.

>Christ directly and intentionally contradicts the Old Testament multiple times
>NO HE DIDN'T!

You people are hilarious. Do you understand what the words "testament" and "contradict" mean? Try to understand your religion instead of sucking its clit.

>>2349753

>the public school system is the greatest tool Satan ever invented in his war against God

mass literacy is overrated

New International Version
But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne;

New International Version
And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

New International Version
And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.

>>2349758
>I don't understand fulfillment
k

New International Version
Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

>>2349770

Oh I see, you're a retard making a semantic dispute. It's "fulfillment" so it can't be a contradiction as well. Alright I'm glad we've settled the fact that you have a learning disability.

New International Version
For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

>>2349776
>i'm too retarded to understand theology
k

>>2349781
I'm fairly certain it's not that hard for a person's righteousness to surpass that of a lynch mob.

>>2349769
>And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

have you even heard protestants in worship?

It's like they're paid per word.

>New International Version

lol translations designed to dodge copyright and make quick money off gullible """Christians"""

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>>2349769
>New International Version

New International Version
You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

New International Version
"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.

New International Version
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

>>2349794
The prohibition is against repetitious prayer, something Catholics do regularly

>Sola Fide

as if the flesh and blood of Christ is somehow unimportant

>uses grape juice for Communion

pls

>>2349794

>It's like they're paid per word.

That's because Protestants don't pray to God, they pray at God.

>>2349802
>prohibition is against repetitious prayer
>I don't know what prayer of the heart is

protestant """theology"""

>>2349806
>That's because Protestants don't pray to God, they pray at God.
What sort of memery is this?

>hates Catholics
>exclusively uses a Catholic canon

can't make this shit up

>>2349802

1 Thessalonians 5:17

>Pray without ceasing.

"""SOLA SCRIPTURA""" pls

>>2349830

The same sort of memery as talking at someone instead of talking to them. You know those people that carry on conversations entirely by themselves while you're on the phone with them? The kind of people that wouldn't notice even if you put the phone down and walked away? That's what Protestants are.

New International Version
But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

New International Version
About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").

New International Version
Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

New International Version
I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me."

>>2349842
Pray without ceasing, don't pray the same thing over and over again

>>2349804
Real presence is unbiblical

>>2349864

funny, where does it say that? Could it be that you are projecting your own heretical spooks onto a literal book?

>>2348972
What do you mean by "historical support"? It sounds like you're saying that historically, the Papacy has served no useful purpose which would give it reason to exist, but nobody would say that because it's blatantly ridiculous.

>>2349866

>26And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 27And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

>17And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: 18For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. 19And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 20Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. 21But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.

KEK

what, did you forget to take the bible literally for a second?

>Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.
Matthew 12:30

>And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Matthew 16:18-19

>The one who hears you (Peter) hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects Him who sent me.
Luke 10:16

>I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.
John 10:14-16

>When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” He said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep.”
John 21:15-17


What's the point of Sola Scriptura if you are illiterate?

>>2349939
I'm not seeing any support for a Papacy

>>2349939
>What's the point of Sola Scriptura if you are illiterate?

Protestants seem to forget that not everyone knows how to read, and that most Christians throughout history were probably illiterate.

>When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” He said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep.”

this one gets me cause Peter denied Christ three times.

>>2349962

Do you not have eyes to see and ears to hear? Or do you close them willfully?

>>2349962
Honestly if you just refuse to see the truth then I can't do anything for you. Just know that the true church will welcome you if you change your mind.

>>2350000

chekd

>>2349879
It says that when it commands not to do vain repetitions as the heathen do

>>2349907
>For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins
>And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you
>This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you
>obvious symbol of the crucifixion

>>2349971
Okay,

> Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters

Where does it say that 'me' is the Pope?

> And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven

Nowhere does it say Peter's role/power/responsibilities are passed on to some Earthly supreme leader after his death.

> I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd

Every group calling itself Christian claims to be the one true flock. This doesn't support your claim over anybody else's.

> >When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” He said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep.”

You've done some serious mental gymnastics to find support for a Papacy here.

>>2350014

>vain repetitions

hmm

I wonder if that means what you seem to think it does.

let's take a look at Matthew 26:44

>And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

GETHSEMANE

>>2350018

>I decide when things are symbolic and when they are literal.

lol k kid

>>2350033

>serious mental gymnastics
>Every group calling itself Christian

every wonder why there are so many in the first place? It's cause protestants.

>>2350057
>>I decide when things are symbolic and when they are literal.
No, God does

>>2350088

So when God himself says "Take, eat; this is my body.", you're just not gonna take him at his word?

>>2350088
>I decide when God is being literal or symbolical

That's heresy.

>>2350100
It was metaphorical of His death on the cross
Anyone with an IQ higher than 80 can see that