What's the deal with modern PTSD? Has it always existed?

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>>2343516
>It seems like most soldiers until Vietnam dealt with war fairly well.

>>2343516
>Camping in forests for a summer or 2 and shooting one or 2 times every month is the same as 4 uninterrupted years of constant industrial war
Nice meme, now fuck off.

Yes you fucking idiot. Nobody bothered to look into the psychology of war until recently. The reverence for quality of life is a fairly new idea.

>>2343516

PTSD is caused by the state of constant alert and danger that is present in modern warfare. i.e. a shell could land on your ass at any time and there are shells landing all around you at all times, or a vietcong could appear out of nowhere at anytime, and they often do.

Warfare in the old days with summer campaigns and pitched battles, just didn't have that.

>>2343516

There are Greek texts describing PTSD

It's always been around

>>2343516
PTSD has always been a thing, only the perception has changed. One of the oldest names for PTSD was called "war nostalgia". Plus general signs of weakness coming from men were a taboo.

>>2343516
>le PTSD did not exist modern youth is just cucks meme
Fuck off. It has always existed. It might have been less prevalent in ancient times or in middle ages because combat was much less stressful when compared to industrialised warfare, but it did exist.

Also
>What is fucking WW1
When you compare the amount of soldiers suffering from PTSD then to today, it's pretty fucking significant.

>>2343636
this
>One of the first descriptions of PTSD was made by the Greek historian Herodotus. In 490 BCE he described, during the Battle of Marathon, an Athenian soldier who suffered no injury but became blind after witnessing the death of a fellow soldier.
brutal tbqh

>>2343636
>>2343679
Aren't there also mentions in the Eddas of warriors going mad and living as beasts in the forest.

>>2343516
>It seems like most soldiers until Vietnam dealt with war fairly well

Idiot.

>>2343516
It has always existed, because war has always been a traumatic event. People already provided you with some examples. Another might be Achilles becoming severly depressed at the gates of Troy.


Obviously people paid a lot less attention to psychology in earlier times, that's a given.
But pre-modern societies also had coping mechanisms. War was often ritualized so it wasn't always the case of living in a constant fear of ambush for 3 years in enemy territory. Often you just had to stand in a field and push with a pike for one agreed upon day until sun went down. There were religious ceremonies meant to help contextualize the fighting, to provide a clear line between war and day-to-day life, with sacrifices, festivals and purification of "blood taint" afterwards.

You might want to read up on some ancient authors like Herodotus or Thucidydes for all the ritualism and custom surrounding warfare.

>>2343647
fucking this

>>2343516
It's just that the symptoms changed as society changed
Marshal Ney had PTSD after the Russian campaign, but instead of trembling and crying, his symptoms were suicidal behavior on the battlefield

There are a lot of storys of people in history with weird querks and extreme stress that probably are just seen as character flaws that are actually ptsd.

>>2344161
He was pretty badass.
>During the battle, he had five horses killed under him; and at the end of the day, Ney led one of the last infantry charges, shouting to his men: "Come and see how a marshal of France meets his death!".

>>2343516
Personally I have PTSD from Iraq and Afghanistan, regarding war it has and always will be there. But it also exists for people that have been in car accidents, sexually assaulted, or the numerous other experiences that have a profound impact. Real PTSD is no joking matter, but it also, oddly enough, a way for those of us that have been in war to keep hold of the experience. When you are there you want nothing more than get the fuck out, when you are out you want nothing more than to go back. The worse is when you begin to slowly forget things, or events, like the sound of brother's voice or laugh that is no longer here and then the guilt of surviving kicks in.

>>2343636

Was it as bad as today though? The Greeks glorified war and glorified personal accomplishments on the battlefield.

>>2345317
I would think worse due to lack of understanding. I mean the individual themselves. Trying understand what the fuck is going on and not being able too, had to make it worse in some ways. Plus some individuals I'm sure were branded as cowards when in fact they weren't.

>>2343516
>>2343631
It's literally as old as rome, now fuck off.

>>2343636
This. Also

>It seems like most soldiers until Vietnam dealt with war fairly well.
Has OP known any Vietnam Vets, seen any homeless people, or been exposed to any pop culture dealing with Vietnam vets? It's a gigantic cliche that lots of people came back with serious issues, and a running joke in media during the 80s and 90s was that homeless people were all Vietnam vets. If anything, they're the one group of vets that's stereotyped heavily as all having PTSD.

>>2345621
Do former Viet Cong also have PTSD in large numbers or is it just the American troops that are weak-minded pussies?

>>2345644

Fuck off

>>2343516
>It seems like most soldiers until Vietnam dealt with war fairly well.
Are you completely unfamiliar with the Vietnam flashback meme?????

>>2345674
Or even just the Rambo film series.

>>2345671
Answer the question please.

>>2343516
>It seems like most soldiers until Vietnam dealt with war fairly well. They hardly talked about it, came back and seemed to live somewhat normal lives, raised families etc.
But that's wrong, you fucking moron.

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>>2345725
No kidding, shell shock anyone?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPJW3A-e6jo

I know I'll get crucified for posting this, but he actually explores and explains the entire concept pretty well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDNyU1TQUXg

It has always existed, but the intense noise and prolonged length of modern combat makes it easier to catch.

>>2343516

Its always been there, but modern combat is different, why, the tour of duty as you said, im no expert but it takes very little time to go feoma state of war to getting on a plane and being a civikian next week,back in the days solsiers had more time to decompress till they camehome, and most of the rimes they spent that ti e with other soldiers who went throug it, as i see it a major problem is friends and family back home who just dont u derstand what you went through, most ex soldiers, at least shorrly after coming home prefer the company of other vets, anothr thing might be how we inthe est are far detached from war, the most stressful thing for some is a job interview, you can go your entire life not giving war a second thought, but in older days, especially antiquity war was common, hoplites were civilians who would fight in the summer almost regularly,so the stress of war and fighting was a common fear so to speak, its like cold showers i guess, not to downplay thw seriousness tho, if you take coldish showers daily, with theoccasional ice cold one it would be less shocking than throwing a man who takes really hot showers in an ice cold bath. No expert though dont crucify me, im a civve obviously, these are my 2 cents anywya.

>>2346014
On my phone sorry for the disgusting spelling.

>>2345855
>intense noise
Tell that to those who fired cannons

>prolonged length
Tell that to Napoleonic troops that invaded Russia

US troops in the Middle East have princess-tier living conditions compared to soldiers of the past centuries

>>2346077
>Life as a soldier isn't total shit anymore
>Fighting on the other hand may have >become way worse
Sounds like that only worsens the experience.

I'd like to add, while pre-modern warfare was horrific the bodies tended to still be recognizable as human. A stabbed corpse or a person whos been blown into a bunch of bloody chunks which is more horrifying mentally.

>>2346317
>Fighting on the other hand may have >become way worse

It really hasnt for Western troops
The main role of modern US infantry is to engage the enemy from afar (by randomly shooting at their general direction) long enough for air support to come and kill them
I'd take that over Napoleonic bayonet fighting anyday

You really have to be unlucky to die as an US soldier nowdays

>>2346018
you damn well better be sorry for that atrocity

>>2346320
Kek
If you believe that, you should really check these soldiers accounts from the early 19th century

>>2345784
>>2346184
>>2346186

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>>2343516
Does this qualify?

>>2345714
I don't think that being a guerilla fighter would be as scarring as fighting said guerilla fighter

>>2343679
I just read that chapter and I thought it was a physical affliction that caused his blindness

>>2346329
Only because the US's major operations are all asymmetric warfare. A serious war with dedicated front lines would kill off soldiers faster.

e.g. the British Army took very few casualties when fighting natives but took hundreds of thousands at Ypres.

>>2346427
nvm I checked and I did misread it

>it's another overweight, autistic teen Walt would totally handle combat better than all those cuck pussies if he had the chance

>>2345312
>when you are out you want nothing more than to go back
Most veteran's I've talked to couldn't wait to be mustered out.

>>2345644
>former Viet Cong
They basically all died in the Tet offensive.

>>2345317
>The Greeks glorified war and glorified personal accomplishments on the battlefield.
So do we. It's even more extreme these days. Kids can enjoy the most violent games and films as long there's no cuss word or side-boobs.

Yes it always existed
Difference is back in the day if you complained about it, they would just laugh at you and throw you off a cliff
I'm assuming you're speaking about actual combat stress, not the snowflake SJW definition of getting triggered because some politician you don't like made a speech in your pos liberal safe space

>>2345317
They also believed homo buttsex raised soldiers morale, I wouldn't exactly take their every word for it

>>2343679
>citing any single anecdote from Herodotus ever

>>2346697
Maybe it does.

>>2345644
I don't know about the viet cong, but north vietnamese soldiers got it too. Check out something like The Sorrow of War, which is an autobiographical account of the second Indochina war from a north vietnamese soldiers view. It's kind of like All Quiet on the Western Front.

>>2343516
There is always "trauma."
The question is...
Is it better to repress and get through the day by beating your wife and children; or being cold and aloof?
Or is it better to face trauma and one day find a solution to healing people from the beyond horrible things that happened to them.

>>2343636
I'm pretty sure a Roman vet from the Palace Guard (of Tiberius or Caligula I thinl) went on a rampage thinking he was killing Germans till he was told to stand down

>>2346330
>>2346330


I'm a little drunk and that post made me barf on "feoma"

>>2346856
>it ain't me
>it ain't me
>i ain't no senators son, son

>>2343516
>Has the cuckification of modern society played a role?
ironic, as this notion is why vets kill themselves instead of getting help.

i've heard that PTSD was actually unintentionally treated by travel to and from the war. unlike in the last 200 years, where transportation was measured in weeks, traveling away from the warzone to home with your band of soldiers was an inadvertent form of psycho-therapy.

compare that to today where soldiers can, and usually do, board a commercial aircraft takes them home in under a day, but usually as a single person.

there's no time to grieve with fellow soldiers and go through the stages of loss today.

>>2346922
kek

>>2346685

Take the Vietnam soldiers, they were treated like trash when they came back. Then look at someone like achilles, who gets respect from literally everyone because of how good he is at war.

>>2346697

It ain't gay if you're underway

>>2346973


>I have never read the Iliad nor the Odyssey.

>>2346996
I think that's the point he was trying to make; Achilles is a badass superman who the whole culture celebrates and he gets depression, so imagine how bad the regular dude has it.

>>2346996

Achilles ain't upset because of ptsd, he's mad that aggamemnon has shamed him publicly.

>>2347015

The point is that in ancient Greece the great warriors got praise for being killing machines, while Vietnam vets came back and we're constantly called monsters.

>>2346404
You're retarded. Guerillas generally suffer absolutely horrendous casualties.

>>2347039

So, in other words he didn't actually get respect.

>>2347063

They, or at least Achilles, gets a pat on the head as a very open and obvious attempt to manipulate him into doing what's good for his boss but less clearly good for him.

>>2347131
>less good for him

His entire reason for being is to obtain glory in war. When they piss him off enough for him to quit they have to overtly try and get him back.

>>2347039
>he's mad that aggamemnon has shamed him publicly.
Or because he lost his bottom boy Patroclus in the war

>>2347184

That was later, which brought about the the main point of the iliad: wrath of achilles.

>>2347148

>His entire reason for being is to obtain glory in war.

See, it's shit like this that I say you haven't read the books. Even ignoring the rather open and blatant line from Achilles when Odysseus goes to speak with him in Hades' realm, about how he'd rather be the poorest farmer or craftsmen rather than king of the dead; the Iliad itself has Achilles being a deeply ambivalent figure, and pretty uncaring about the whole "glory" aspect of it. When he realizes that all the glory he garners doesn't actually mean as much as an overking's whim, he loses interest in it.

>>2347206

>By god, I’d rather slave on earth for another man. Some dirt-poor tenant farmer who scrapes to keep alive—than rule down here over all the breathless dead.

So he had a change of heart once he died.

>>2343516
>cuckification

Why are you alive?

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no there was absolutely no mental trauma back then because potato
people back then were completely immune to mental illnesses

>>2343611
why did you add ",now fuck off" ? do you want to feel edgy boi? im not op but there was literally no reason for you to act like that.

I recall I heard of an account of a Crusader Knight returning from his journeys, and was always silent and reserved for the rest of his days, never talking about his experiences in the Middle East.
If anyone knows what I'm talking about, I'd like to read it again

PTSD even exists for the macho guys who get treated like royalty by America. I had a guy commit suicide in Yemen a couple years back.

t. Naval special warfare

>>2345621
>Has OP known any Vietnam Vets, seen any homeless people, or been exposed to any pop culture dealing with Vietnam vets?
Considering that OP sounds like he's 13, I'd guess no.

>>2345312
Did you ever fear that those terrorists will get you, cut your head off before a camera and show it on internet?

>>2347187
Meanwhile Paris, while being a pussy ass loser, was banging the most perfect woman in history
Really makes you think

>>2347523

He absconded with another man's wife, he broke one of the most sacred ideas in Greek culture being the relationship between host and suppliant.

>chose to be a soldier
>get mental disease for doing your job

Are soldiers the dumbest?

>>2343580
When you know that you have something to come home to it helps a bit, but im willing to bet those on the pacific front had high rates

>>2343679
Hysterical blindness, basically your brain is always trying to protect you, and if you see something so horrible you cant handle it your mind will literally just shut your eyes off

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>>2343516
>It seems like most soldiers until Vietnam dealt with war fairly we-

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>>2345317
No matter how much you glorify war and martial accomplishments, you will still have to face the primal, animalistic, fear of "I AM REPEATEDLY PUT IN A SITUATION OF PERMANENT DANGER AND I WILL MOST LIKELY DIE PAINFULLY AND VIOLENTLY."

You can't combat that shit with ideals, that shit will never go away no matter the centuries.

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>>2343516
>It seems like most soldiers until Vietnam dealt with war fairly well.
Yeah because all those fucking governments during WWI and WWII hid it pretty well and called the poor cunts who pointed it out cowards and pussies.

>>2345644
"Weak-minded pussies"

What kind of scum are you? What the hell have you ever done that would make men who suffered torturous conditions, under constant threat of ambush, thousands of miles from their home "weak-minded" by comparison?

The invention of gunpowder made warfare much more terrifying.

Imagine your a European man at arms kicking around circa 1250: You can defend yourself against any attack someone could direct at you.

Sword?
Block it or parry, or try to get out of the way
Lance?
Dodge it, knock it aside and duck, block it with your shield, wear armour
Arrows?
Block them, wear armour

The day handheld firearms became better than anything else was the day that war got scary as fuck.

There's really no defence against a bullet, you're life isn't in your hands anymore.

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>>2348396
>it's ok to call black people subhuman and encourage the extermination of jews on this website as long as you support are troops

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I have never seen an op more retarded than this one.

>>2343516
It was called Shell-Shock in WWI and WWII

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>>2348396
>Some Afghan goatfucker hipfires an AK in your general direction then runs away
>Traumatized for life

HURRRR THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE SIR

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>>2348451
>Arrows?
>Block them, wear armour

>>2347523
you can't bang shades m8

>>2343516
There was ptsd in world War 1 and 2 they just normally called it shell shock, the reason it did not exist before this was combat changed drastically as a result of world War one, battles became things that lasted days non stop, non stop artillery barrages for hours upon hours. Combat became a way of life for the soldiers under constant threat, this becomes worse in Vietnam with asymmetrical fighting, due to the inability to know where the enemy will come from, or who it will be even as they no longer even use uniforms.
But it had other names in the past and there were significantly less cases.

Ok hear me out, it's pretty simple. You know in traditional societies, you would have different castes. Different classes of people. One of these castes or classes was the Warrior caste. This would be people who didn't work, didn't administer rites or hold any public office, but strictly fought in battles. Your average joe was not a warrior, and generally would not have to fight.
Now with the advent of firearms, suddenly you didn't need lifelong training to be a warrior any more. The warrior class essentially disappeared around the time the Flintlock became widely distributed. Now Joe Schmo could just point a boomstick at mr. Nobleman and send him to meet his makers.
So then, warlords and generals were now forced to recruit as many men as possible who could hold guns, because that's what it all came down to all of a sudden, whoever had the most boomsticks was now lord of the land. This is in part because of the meta-war that was employed, with big battles in open fields. The simple tactics meant more guys on your side = You win.
And thus entire populations started beign employed for war. You were now a soldier, not a warrior. You don't have the physical or mental training that a warrior would traditionally have for warfare, because it was his entire purpose in life, but you are forced to endure it like everyone else. Hence PTSD and such diagnosis.

>>2347685
>Bottom Left
>"Frankly, I had enjoyed the war"

You can just see that crazy bastard saying something like "Oh, I feel miles better now, doctor. May I please go back to the Trench?"

>>2350376
Even the Romans noted how people seemed shaken as fuck when they came back from war lad.

I really never thought I would get it because I was always a lucky bastard in Afghanistan. Loud noises and gunshots didn't bother me and I was shot multiple times in the torso overtime but survived with the plates.
But when a carbomb went off it was me and my friend I met in boot, and when it blew up shrapnel went into my face and part of my hand came off (only have my ring finger + pinky finger now). My ears were ringing, my hand spilling blood and my face burning. Not only that but I saw a big pile of gore and kevlar right in front of me.
It's not weak minded to get PTSD from that. Vietnam had a shit ton of PTSD coming home. The reason nobody hears about it in the past is because it wasn't documented well. Today it is loud explosions and body flying while constant barrages of bullets come at you and people keep dying while not knowing where it's coming from.

Also OP you triggered my PTSD. Thanks famalam.

spot the dumb /pol/ack guys

>>2350503
You're supposed to set the timer on your carbomb to give you enough time to get away from the blast radius, Cletus.

>>2343516
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4Pd527GN48

>>2350551

gay
a
y

People in ISIS don't seem to have PTSD.
Many return to Europe and live comfy lives after having literally beheaded people.

>>2350569

This is what scares me about Islam.

It seems like something Lovecraftian. A black cube cult with ferocious killers who don't regret any second having sliced 5000 troaths.

>>2350569
They get fucked up on drugs before fighting

PTSD has been around since there were wars. Yes it is documented it's just not called PTSD. Just because we call it something new after every war doesn't mean it wasn't happening shell shock World War One

During World War I it was referred to as, 'Combat Fatigue.' By the time World War II occurred, the disorder was being referred to as a, 'gross stress reaction.' The Vietnam War found PTSD being called, 'Post-Vietnam Syndrome.' Other names for PTSD include, 'Battle Fatigue,' and , 'Shell Shock.'

>>2350582

maybe for them it is easy to kill a kuffar who coincidentally has skin that is very similar to a pigs

You people need to read On Killing. The picture from the first reply of the thread is the cover.

Basically there are alot of reasons why war today seems to have more of those who suffer from PTSD.

First.
Ancient warfare IS different than Modern in how it effects the mind.

In ancient war, the battles are not how they are depicted in movies. Battles would often be shoving matches for hours. Very little killing would take place until one side finally broke. It was then when one side would rout with their back turned that the otherside would begin killing.

Another thing is that Roman commanders would often complain about the difficulty of teaching soldiers to stab. Many would slash and such but it was difficult for them to kill so personally.

Even in the majority of historical warfare the killing was done by a minority of soldiers.

In the Musket era, soldiers would often posture by shooting above their targets. The cannons were the real killers.

In WW2, it was found that a small minority of pilots scored the majority of kills. Pilots often when faced with enemy planes just would not shoot.

Even on the ground in WW1 and WW2, very few soldiers actually shot to kill enemies and the people around them often acted in their aid. There would still be the ones who posture like in the Musket era. Some would fetch the killer ammo and other needed items. And a few would not do shit.

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>>2348539
Spoken like a true neckbeard

>>2343516
A lot of the problem is due to advances in modern body armor and battlefield medicine.

Huge numbers of soldiers today are surviving things that would have killed them in WWII, and so they're having to live with trauma that previous generations never experienced.

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Some people are predisposed to PTSD, some aren't. It was probably the same now as it was back then.

>dude, I wouldn't puss out I'd be a tough guy like in my little video games! lmao
Sure, but are you willing to risk your life for King Chad's right to a piece of territory or some other spook? Who is the real "cuck" here?

>>2350931
That's just a meme bro.

>>2350376
>or hold any public office
The warrior caste very often shared the administrative class with the religious caste.

>>2346922
hahahahaha

>cuckification
I want /pol/ to be nuked from orbit.

>>2347623

>chose to be a doctor
>get mental disease for doing your job

Are doctors the dumbest?

>>2351216
Doctors get prestige and money. Vets get called cucks and become homeless.

>>2350569

Yes, because ISIS members living in the west are completely open about their activities and there have been several detailed studies taken on their psychological health as a demographic?

>>2350835

>implying ISIS' victims haven't been almost universally Arabs of some flavour

>>2351243

>implying western soldiers in the post 9/11 era aren't hero worshipped

Meanwhile doctors knowingly take on a job with the highest rates of depression, alcoholism and suicide. They must be stupid.

>>2345317

Melee skirmishes are some of the most terrifying shit that, for the most part, has disappeared.

Fighting in melee range is a brutal experience.

>>2343516
PTSD like symptoms have been recorded throughout all of human history, but it was something that wasn't medically diagnosed until recently.

Another thing to consider is that the nature of war changed drastically. It used to be that you would meet up with your leader, march, wave your spear around, then go back home. Casualty rates were pretty low in actual battle with most coming from diseases. But you generally knew when the fight was going to happen and when it would be over.

Now however you are basically in a constant state of stress as an attack can come at any time. You're basically waiting for something to happen 24/7 and that puts you in a fucked mental state.

>>2343516

The problem is that vets come back to a rootless near-dystopian society that seems narcassically obsessed with trivial shit.

>>2343516

The VA is a path to getting major monies if you go through a disabilty claim.

We live in a time where millions of jobs are disappearing.

So vet comes back and see a desolated landscape with little jobs because his rating/MOS taught him a specialization that exists nowhere in the job market (for the most part).

So vets now take advantage of the claim system so that they can get 1800-2800 dollars a month for life without lifting a finger.

>>2351376

And part of gaming that system is claiming as much conditions, both real and imagined.

So the vet is now stuck for months trying to play-act the depressed troubled vet. And he becomes his role until he gets the disability percentage.

>>2351376
>>2351383

One more bit. A lot of PTSD is the irreconcilability of a vet's experience with the utter tone-deafness and cluelessness many in our society develop.

It's almost surreal, one day you're in afghanistan. Next day you're in a 7/11 staring at the bottles and thinking of the meaning of it all.

Whereas traditional cultures usually had a "transition" sort of celebration and rituals that reintroduced the person back to his tribes.

Nowadays we tell them "tough shit" and make them go through a system that purposely doesn't hire vets for most jobs (VA)

>>2348457
This
People on this site are incredibly thin skinned.

>>2348396
I shitpost on 4chan and am barraged by salvos of true and undiluted autism on a daily basis.

>>2350425
Fucker is happy as a pig in shit he gets to go home.

>>2343516
>The average infantryman in the South Pacific during World War II saw about 40 days of combat in four years. The average infantryman in Vietnam saw about 240 days of combat in one year thanks to the mobility of the helicopter.

With the modernization of war, soldiers spent more time under fire.

>>2343516
>What's the deal with modern PTSD? Has it always existed? Has the cuckification of modern society played a role?
>So is PTSD a real "disorder"
I think I remember your worthless shitposting on /k/ recently. Felt the need to shit up another board too, I see.

>>2343516
>So is PTSD a real "disorder" or is it just a rebrand of what every soldier who sees combat goes thru?

Same shit, different war.

PTSD is composed of, essentially, 2 aspects: 1) classical conditioning of combat stimuli with conscious and unconscious behaviors 2) detrimental emotional responses to combat experiences.

The first is easy to deal with, and most soldiers don't need any adjusting, as conditioned behaviors tend to become extinct after long intervals without the conditioning stimulus. So after enough time of NOT hearing snaps, cracks and pops of gun fire, you'll start to lose your conditioning to that stimulus.

The second part is tougher, and is the most detrimental to soldiers. Experiences in war can lead to emotions that can be harmful to the individual if they don't explore them, or get help exploring them, and accepting them for what they are....war experience. Some soldiers hold guilt for what they've done, others for what they didn't do, and it's these soldiers that tend to be the most effected by their experience.

This is the same shit that soldiers have had to deal with since antiquity, and some soldiers will never be "cured" because combat is like virginity in that once you've experienced it, you're never the same.

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>>2343516
>most soldiers until Vietnam dealt with war fairly well
neva been dun befo

>>2343516

Shakespear have pretty good descriptions of modern PTSD?

So its not like he made that shit up.

>>2343516
LOL WTF I am the OP I started this thread over 24 hours ago and abandoned it shortly after, I come back to pol tonight and see it on the front page. Damn lol

>>2343516
Ptsd started being noticed widely around ww1 from what i understand. It was called shell shock and poorly understood but you can read plenty of primary sources referencing the "mile long stare", i believe they called it, of the soldiers who came back. This leads me to believe ptsd is the result of the unnatural total wars of the industrial age. Before wars had "rules" so to speak. Killing wasnt so efficient due to lack of technology and becoming a soldier was more about class and society. After the industrial revolution, war became more and more a total meat grinder of good, young men having their lives taken from them senselessly over strategic goals, supposedly for the betterment of the nation, really for the betterment of the elite who propegated the wars in the first place. But i digress

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>>2351147
It's the only way to be sure

>>2343516

Yes, but it has become far moe common because modern warfare is so intense and long-lasting. In ancient times, being "at war" mostly meant marching around, occasionally sitting around in fortresses or camping around outside besieged cities. The actual life-or-death fighting tended to be fairly brief and sporadic, even the most hard fought battles ended when the sun set. In a modern war, men can be under fire for day, weeks or even months nonstop. This causes the stresses that lead to PTSD to have far more opportunity to manifest.

>>2352903
even in the modern military they describe being at war as "long moments of soul crushing tedium punctuated by brief moments of sheer terror"

>>2352906
Difference is now the sheer terror can strike at any moment rather than at some prescribed day.

>>2343516
i think it might be much worse today, have you ever seen what a 7.62mm bullet does to a human?

>>2352695

I'm starting to doubt Hotspurs nightmares are him freaking out over his past experiences. His wife says it's only been happening for 2 weeks, which fits in with the timeline of him starting to rebel against Henry IV. He's not repeating past battles, he's worrying about the battles to come. This fits with the dialogue immediately before where he's ranting and raving against one of his men fir warning him not to rebel

>>2352929

Have you ever seen what a war hammer does to a person?

>>2343516
OP is obviously baiting you all, no one could be this retarded

>>2343516

yes it always existed, being exposed to high intensity violence and mortal danger causes emotional trauma which manifests as what we today call ptsd, and the fact war changes people and people who have been out fighting for a prolonged time come back fucked up was known across cultures since forever

what happens is that the organism is forced to quickly rewire certain reactions and emotional patterns to survive, and this then becomes the way it reacts to certain stimuly in general even after the danger is gone

adrenalin junkies were a thing too, people would get addicted to the rush of violence and death and survival, which also is a common deformation

now each case may differ, and the major factors of difference usualy have to do with 'technical' stuff, like the circumstances and time periods and technology used etc... theres records of different ways all this manifested in different time periods but it always happens cause thats simply how humans function

obviously modern warfare made it worse, more so in scale than in intensity, and thats why after ww1 psychology started looking into it

>>2352925

yes anon, in pre-modern warfare the threat of mutilation, death, capture and torture was only present on proscribed days, other than that you were safe, it was like a camping trip realy, and the idea of other humans wielding deadly weapons at you and the sight of human bodies falling apart in torrents of blood and gore, the automated responses and emotional numbing necesary to survive, the memories of torture, execution and rape either witnessed or commited, the moments of loss and running for survival, the sight of your friends and family members butchered, the fear, the agression, pain and grief and shame, all that was just something you forgot after a good sunday mass once you came back to your idilic cottage in the meadow

people didnt stereotypicaly get piss drunk every day after comming back from wars, they didnt change in character and become agressive and prone to outbursts of violence, they didnt go into fits when stressed, they didnt set up simulated violence like tournaments and duels where there was actual loss of life and limb but noone cared cause they were allready hooked, they didnt go trough elaborate and arduous religious rituals to ''atone'' and ''find peace'', nah that was all just pre-moderns being silly

>>2353018

>actual ancient and medieval warfare is just like Game of Thrones

>>2352974
>nd thats why after ww1 psychology started looking into it
And also because psychology essentially wasn't a thing before then.

>>2343516
Read the book "On Killing" it's by a special forces colonel that explains, in depth, why modern soldiers are more prone to PTSD and PTSD-like symptoms.

Most of the reasons are encompassed by the larger ideals of,
>less wind-down time and faster re-integration into society
>Less time with close-comrades that they can commiserate with
>More active involvement in war

In WW2 most American soldiers never even came close to firing their rifle at an enemy, and most of those who had the opportunity didn't even do it then.

The style of rifle training from the invention of muskets/arbequis all the way until WW2 made people very unlikely to actually want to shoot at other humans.
They had firing rates as low as 15-20%.

Modern soldiers are trained on pop-up silhouettes and running lanes against OpFor with blanks, conditioning them to be ready and willing to shoot man-shaped targets, which is something we naturally and subconsciously recoil from.

Modern American soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, and to some extent Vietnam Vets, had their firing rates exponentially increased to 90-95% by modern conditioning techniques, which doesn't leave any room to tell yourself "I didn't do anything bad, it probably wasn't me that shot him".

Humans are naturally very averse to killing other humans unless in a chase-scenario or they know for a complete fact that the other human wants to kill them, something that can't subconsciously be reasoned well with indirect or rifle fire.

>>2347662
Vietnam Vets were cycled out in 1 year tours, meaning they entered an unwelcoming unit, made no friends because "I'm leaving in a year anyway", and then left alone.

WW2 vets generally stayed with their buddies from basic training all the way until they died, were seriously wounded, or the war ended for them.
That played a huge part in the recovery period.

>>2351008
It's widely regarded as a standard in the US Army and is on a shit-ton of reading lists.

I've only met two guys who disliked it.
One Colonel that said "some of it is a little bit inaccurate" and one Infantry Captain that said he "didn't like it" vs dozens of people I've met that told me they love it and apply it to their own leadership paradigms.

>>2343636
yes, "Achilles in Vietnam" is an excellent book that demonstrates this. If you haven't read it already, i strongly recommend.

>>2353661
>>More active involvement in war
>In WW2 most American soldiers never even came close to firing their rifle at an enemy, and most of those who had the opportunity didn't even do it then.

Of course if you're taking fucking WW2 American princess-soldiers as an exemple..

Russians/Germans during WW2 (to remain on the same timeline) had a very different experience, and don't get me started on older stuff like the Napoleonic Wars

Well you could view it as an extreme overstimulation of the brain.

If you hear very high noises and see people die very often, and you don't get to process it correctly(which you usually have time to do in civilian life), your brain eventually shuts down.

It probably has existed forever, but modern scientific research always puts abstract names on to phenomena.

>>2353661
>>2353721
Also, a very slight percentage of US troops in Afghanistan and Iraq actually killed anything

The main purpose of modern infantry is to bait the enemy and keep them engaged by firing at their general direction (and not at them) long enough for air support to come and kill them

The reality of American Modern Warfare isnt like in Black Hawk Down or your CoD games
US infantry is basically a baiting non-lethal tool

>>2353721
>Of course if you're taking fucking WW2 American princess-soldiers as an exemple..
Because it's well documented that many Soviet and German (especially German) soldiers suffered from severe mental problems after the war...

WW2 Americans are the ones that people use to say "hey look, the older generation toughed it out" when in reality they had it the easiest of all.

>>2348457

You're assuming that everyone does that.

>>2353738
>Also, a very slight percentage of US troops in Afghanistan and Iraq actually killed anything
Which doesn't negate the fact that they "could" have killed something.
Aiming towards someone, even if they're a speck at 400-500 meters, and pulling the trigger has disastrous subconscious mental effects for most people.

We predisposed built to kill others of or own species, even in fights over mates/land/food/etc..., almost no mammals are.

>>2353746
It's much easier to escape war unscathed if you don't join in until someone else has won it for you. Compare with Iraq/Afghanistan where Americans were expected to do some real work and they all came home crying like babies because they heard a motorcycle backfire while they were waiting in line at the Camp Bastion Burger King and mistook it for a car bomb.

After 4 years of war and losing both of my legs i can tell you ptsd is real, i cry myself to sleepevery night and wake up crying and i have to replay what happened to me in arma 2 to remind myself how lucky iam to be alive so i wont kill myself

>>2353735
>It probably has existed forever, but modern scientific research always puts abstract names on to phenomena.
That's a good point, but it could have also been like how alcoholic beverages used to be far weaker drinks, the kind that you could chug all day and get a buzz by the end of the night. But by the time of the industrial revolution you had whiskey and other hard liquors which could get a man drink with only a few ounces, and suddenly drunkenness becomes a much more pronounced problem because now they're not just mildly toasted but incomprehensibly shitfaced

So war goes from cannons and muskets to napalm and machine guns and all of a sudden you get slaughter and human misery on a scale unrivaled by anything a soldier in antiquity might have experienced.

>>2346014
That was a nice response

>>2353936
The Punic wars were far more intense than Vietnam though.

>>2353991

Melee combat is fucking terrifying.

Soldiers today have it fucking easy. Which is to say they have it fucking shitty but not as shitty as the complete terror of feeling a man's heartbeat through the sword that just pierced his femoral...

>>2353764

Our intelligence works off of a ROUTE RAPE RAVAGE AI routine that gets better at intercepting OODA loops with successive generations.

>>2343516
No
https://youtu.be/k4Pd527GN48

>>2343516
pretty sure mild PTSD was just the norm for most people until the late 19th century.

>>2345317
Different kind of stress levels. In modern times you're under constant stress but in lower amounts while ancient soldiers were under no stress for most of the campaign and then put through insane amounts of it during the few battles they took part in.

>>2353991
The stakes were vastly higher, I'll give you that. And yes, there were some truly horrible moments for Roman legionaries in that war: being pushed into lake Trasimene, being surrounded by a smaller force at Cannae.

But the difference is that for a Roman, they would have had to march for weeks to get to to battle, just to have the weeks march back to think about what just happened. For G.I.s in Vietnam, they got helicoptered in and out of the fighting on a far more frequent basis to go fight with weapons which were vastly more lethal

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>>2346922
holy shit

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>>2343516
society has had nothing to do with it just until recently. you can't tell me you've seen the films of those WW1 soldiers straight off the frontline shaking and twitching and having seizures from shellshock and say it's because society was cucked back then. PTSD, in my opinion, is the result of mechanized, impersonal warfare that easily demoralizes the soldier. the artillery used in ww1 is a testament by itself to that, seeing as how it was used on such an enormous scale and brought about so much destruction when the victims of the barrage never even saw the artillerymen. even in WW2 when everyone had some sort of goal to be fighting for like democracy, national pride, saving the homeland and whatnot, soldiers were still completely destroyed by the absolute brutality that the new weapons of war were able to cause (flamethrowers, tanks, machine guns, airplanes, artillery, snipers, hand grenades). however, you've still got PTSD even before mechanized warfare, but of course it wasn't as common, seeing as war wasn't so mobile, massive, and mechanized. it was all done on the ground on open land where you could see the enemy. granted, you still saw horrible shit like your friend being torn in half or something, but you knew who did it and could retaliate because the enemy was right in front of you. it's when warfare became long range and impersonal that PTSD started to really become common, seeing as soldiers were just watching their comrades die from nowhere and always being on edge for some long range weapon to kill them out of the blue.

>>2354167
>no stress

The logistics train brah. The logistics train.

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>>2343580

t. someone who hasn't read "With the Old Breed" by Eugene Sledge

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>>2348451
>There's really no defence against a bullet, you're life isn't in your hands anymore.

>what is PASGT

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>>2348457
>it's ok to call black people subhuman

That's because it's an objective fact

>>2347689

>using a vintage M16A1

Lucky bastard, I want one of those.

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>>2353661
>In WW2 most American soldiers never even came close to firing their rifle at an enemy, and most of those who had the opportunity didn't even do it then.

>>2353738
>Also, a very slight percentage of US troops in Afghanistan and Iraq actually killed anything

What the fuck is the point to going to war if you don't get to kill anyone?

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>>2353746

Speaking of how mass murder drives people nuts...

Anyone got any research on how the mass rape and massacre of Germans at the end of the war impacted returning Russian veterans?

While I imagine shooting down fleeing pregnant women with your SVT-40 while your comrades take bets on whether you can kill both mother and child with one shot or busting your load inside a screaming 13 year old German girl your squadmates are holding down and poking with bayonets was immensely satisfying at first, it probably wasn't as much as time went on and your kids started asking you what you did in the war, hoping for some inspiring story of courage rather than utter revulsion.

>>2354768

The mass rape and massacre didn't happen so it had no impact. Soviets weren't gonna do that shit while we were around. Sure, some rape and killing likely happened, but not on the scale you're implying. Take your victim complex somewhere else, Heinrich.

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>>2354785

t. tankie

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemmersdorf_massacre

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>>2354785
>mass rape and massacre didn't happen
Sure thing, Ivan

>>2343647
>much less stressful
In the sense of whole conflict, perhaps. Today you could get killed by some stray shell dozens of miles behind the front.
But pitched battles were fucking horrific. Read descriptions of what happened when pike squares clashed for example.

>>2354433

This is probably the best argument I've seen- mechanized warfare and the advent of night attacks, raids, etc becoming standard procedure completely removes any of the perception of safety from being in your fortified area. Nowadays when a bunker buster, artillery, guided missile, etc can end your life before you know anything is happening that kind of shit can cause ridiculous mental strain.

>>2354698
I loved his story in the pacific

>>2352703
Sounds spooky

>>2354433
PTSD is as old as writing. Mechanization has nothing to do with it.

The only difference is that we have an accepted medical term for it and can scan your brain for that shit.

>>2354785
Except it fucking did. WW3 nearly happened when some grunts saw a fucking mass rape and started losing their shit until the soviets rolled tanks up to convince them to fuck off.

>>2343647
>When you compare the amount of soldiers suffering from PTSD then to today,
You'll quickly fucking realize that the term didn't exist, there was no medical diagnosis, and people would just call you a coward or ignore you if you spoke about it. Talking and writing about your feelings is a very recent trend.

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why is everyone in this thread so aggressive

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>>2356912
welcome to 4chan anon..

>>2345317
PTSD is more prevalent today for two reasons: 1) It's documented and understood and 2) soldiers today and especially during the world wars were under constant fear of death and under constant shelling which likely leads to PTSD much quicker

>>2354003
It's more terrifying, but you have to remember that the melee will happen like 4 times a year maybe, while modern warefare can happen multiple times a day.

>>2354751
You don't know that until you actually face the decision to engage the enemy. Out of 10 soldiers, 7 wont do it, 2 will but rationalize that they dind't hit the target and somebody else did and 1 is probably a psycho that doesn't have any problems with killing.

>>2357929
>7 out of 10 "soldiers" are worthless pussies
This explains the prevalence of PTSD in modern Western militaries.

>>2354751
>What the fuck is the point to going to war if you don't get to kill anyone?
Most enlisted men are pogs in the rear with the gear. You really only want your hooah-daddies at the tip of the spear because they support each other in a combined arms approach that maximizes their deadliness without needing to throw a lot of moderately trained G.I.s into the meat grinder.

And telling your higher ups that you joined the military in order to kill stuff is a nice way to get yourself a nice, embarrassing mark on your permanent medical record for being mentally unstable. The hooah-daddies don't want to deal with that kind of shit while they're trying to do their jobs.

All these fucking tough guys are so fucking hardcore in this thread.

Fuck /his/ go join the fucking Army and kill some shit.

You're all obviously immune from PTSD because you're all so fucking hardcore.

>>2343516
Consider that older cultures had more of an honor/militaristic basis and that proportionally more people fought so it was easier to talk about and process these memories.

Also artillery and airplanes didn't exist

>>2358041
>1 out of 10 is the psychopath.
This explains your post.

>>2357929
>Out of 10 soldiers, 7 wont do it, 2 will but rationalize that they dind't hit the target and somebody else did and 1 is probably a psycho that doesn't have any problems with killing.


This isn't even remotely true.

I served in both SOF and the conventional forces, and anyone unwilling to engage the enemy are kicked off the line. The remaining assaulters will shoot you dead with zero fucks given, because that's their job.

The only issue I had getting the boys to shoot was with the conventional dudes, and that's because they were concerned about getting hammered by senior leaders for ROE violations. That shit only lasted until after the first few engagements, though, as then they gained confidence that their command wasn't trying to fuck them for doing their job. SOF doesn't have that issue, though.

I think nothing is new in this world in terms of human behaviour.

PTSD in modern warfare is almost an entirely made up thing.
Let me explain.
There are certainly men who come back from a warzone, having endured war stuff, and have a slew of mental health problems, at times a combination of TBI, survivor's guilt, and questioning their own decisions. The culmination of these types of symptoms are what make up true PTSD. These are men who face insane situations, are not given adequate time to decompress between missions, and then go out and do it again.

The whole stigma of "being on alert" or "being startled by loud noises" or "not likely busy public places/enclosed spaces"....FUCK...OFF. That is not PTSD. That is your environment when you are in a combat zone out doing combat. Not only that, this has allowed thousands upon THOUSANDS of neck beard fat fuck retards in the military to come back and claim PTSD after sitting on BAF/KAF/BIAP for 9 months in a SCIF having never ONCE left the wire or been placed in any real danger, drinking coffee at the local Green Bean and smoking cigars donated from people back home. Those "men" and women are what have FLOODED the entire system with "muh PTSD". Further more, this has also coincided with what I call "military entitlement syndrome", where fuckholes walk around acting like the entire world owes them a debt of gratitude, and that their opinions are better than literally everybody elses, simply because "they served overseas". No. False. Stop. You took up a job at 20 years old because you weren't cutting it in adult life making your own choices, and you took a deal for free college, a little "adventure", and because you were 1 month away from defaulting on all your credit cards/loans. Nobody owes you shit retard.

The men who serve in combat zones going on multi day patrols week in and week out for months and months, never seeing a friendly female face or having a warm meal made for them, those are the men who have actual PTSD. And they don't cry about it.

>>2361987
>>The men who serve in combat zones going on multi day patrols week in and week out for months and months, never seeing a friendly female face or having a warm meal made for them, those are the men who have actual PTSD.
No, that's not where PTSD generally comes from. PTSD in the military sense comes from being next to death for ages and having it breathe over your shoulder repeatedly. It can also come from just having people die near you depending on your general mental fortitude.
I agree the retarded neets are probably faking.

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>>2358294
>telling your higher ups that you joined the military in order to kill stuff is a nice way to get yourself a nice, embarrassing mark on your permanent medical record for being mentally unstable.

You're telling the military thinks Private Joker was the fucked up one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMEViYvojtY

>>2343516
I think people play up what shell shock really is. Atleast as described by French and British physicians in the first war.

The soldier were blind, stupefied, unresponsive, shaking etc sometimes for a couple days but would eventually snap out of it and be ready to go. Probably caused by an overload of adrenaline and then completely running out of it.

Now its a whole life long dehabilitating disease. Makes me think its more for attention and sympathy than an actual problem.

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>>2345317

Every single one of these shit eating krauts thought that same way.

WW1 was known as "The Great War", doesn't matter because there'd be an even greater bloodier war just 25 years later.

It's like the vets that survived just told their kids how awesome war was and we should try it again!

>>2359983

>SOF

Because selection for SOF is designed to find the most dedicated and willing killers possible?

Whereas the normie infantry is far less homogeneous?

>>2343516
A very simple reason: Until recently it was absolutely taboo for men to talk about their experiences or feelings.

You were traumatized in WW2 and suffer nightmares? Just get a family and beat the shit out of your wive and drink alcohol as stress relief like the rest of men do. Back then nobody gave a shit about you and you didn't have to answer to anyone. Live and let live.

Today you can't do that shit anymore. Everyone is fucking watching you and it's harder to hide that your psyche is fucked up if even a guy who doesn't have facebook is considered a fucking psycho.

>>2356912
Trying to compensate for the fact their great grandfathers were sitting in trenches while they're on 4chan

>>2346334
To be fair, I think he mean war before widespread use of firearms and gunpowder artillery. He's still wrong though because swords, axes, maces etc can really fuck a body up.

>>2363417

Read it again.

>>2359983
>they were concerned about getting hammered by senior leaders for ROE violations.

The biggest difference between SOF and the conventional force isn't about the willingness to pull a trigger, it's about intelligence, physical fitness and capability, and a willingness to learn.

It's a lot easier to teach a dude to pull a trigger on Haj than it is to teach the fucker to eat a healthy diet and do PT on his own so he doesn't turn into a fat piece of shit, and that's the kind of problem you face with conventional troops.

>>2353686
>>2353721
>>2353746
>>all this bullshit and slagging on americans
Nice try europoors, but "on killing" is actually a load of bullshit and the actual situation on the ground in italy and france was very different.

>>2361987
Are you aware of the insane suicide rates for vets?

>>2345317
Every man has his breaking point, that's why for most of history desertion meant death

>>2344280
His death was pretty badass too:

On 7 December 1815 he was executed byfiring squadin Paris near theLuxembourg Garden. He refused to wear a blindfold and was allowed the right to give the order to fire, reportedly saying:

Soldiers, when I give the command to fire, fire straight at my heart. Wait for the order. It will be my last to you. I protest against my condemnation. I have fought a hundred battles for France, and not one against her ... Soldiers, fire!

>>2343516
Shell shock was a big thing during WW1 in Britain.

>>2365949
How much of that is from the horrors of working in the Camp Bastion laundromat though, and how much is from having joined the army as a last-ditch attempt to gain some purpose and direction in life but not actually gaining said purpose/direction?

>>2346697
To be fair it probably does.
Hiring prostitutes probably has the same effect.

>>2354803
That's the thing. In a pike battle you aren't gonna be to afraid until you get in range of missiles and then really scared when you get close to the infantry, then it's all over. In modern war you could die at any second if you are even within miles of the fighting.

PTSD is an amalgamation of symptoms and factors which enables the VA to use veterans as guinea pigs for testing new psychiatric medicine. That's why it was invented.

>>2348539
if it's so easy and painless why don't you do it

>>2343516
Check out "shell shock" in WW1 or the Napoleonic wars op.

We think that modern people are "snowflakes" for succumbing to mental illness so easily, but the actual truth is that what we would call horrific mental illness was so widespread in the past that it was just part of "the human condition".

It's a recent idea that life could even possibly not be an endless horror of madness.

>>2363369
It's like Germany had wanted that war.

>>2343516
It used to be easy for soldiers to deal with the trauma of war before they return home. It took weeks to travel back home by sea during ww1 and ww2. So they had a chance to adjust and process everything they just saw and went through.

With the airplane, now soldiers can be back in their homes and adjusting to normal life in a day or two. 24 hours ago you just saw your best friend get blown to pieces and his limbs scattered about, now you're waking with your wife and kids.

>Plays videogames once
>"Yo these vets are pussies man I shot like 50 towelheads and Im just fine"

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>>2353756
Everyone does do that.

>Man, why did we only notice the prevalence of crippling psychological disorders after psychology became a formal field of study.

Man, that mystery may never go resolved.

You can actually see evidence of the disorder in the Iliad.

>>2369347
>It took weeks to travel back home by sea during ww1 and ww2

Not for European troops (you know, the ones that actually fought) self-centered murifat

>>2369375

>tfw you have literally destroyed over 100,000 human digital silhouettes, each one of which was manned by another person

das it mane I'm gon be fuckd up

>>2354052
This seems very plausible. Especially considering the kind of shit people use to have to deal with daily.

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>>2343516
>Has it always existed?
Yes it just went by different names.
Soldier's heart, shell shock, gross stress reaction, battle fatigue.

Hell even in the Iliad there's PTSD. Ajax goes crazy and then kills himself.

>>2343516
My idea is that PTSD has always existed, but only manifests itself - at least severely - when the victim has experienced trauma so unlike his or her normal experiences that it leaves a permanent scar. Humans of the past that didn't have comfortable lives and middle class luxury or suburban security would likely not have been as sheltered from trauma as modern humans who go from ordinary civilian life to military life and the battlefield.