Redpill me on Dorians and Myceneans. All I know is that the

sorry for typos

>>2333704
The term "the Greeks" does not refer to a single group of people but to a varied group of many people's joined together by language alone.

However since these people's all spoke a form of Greek they're all therefore Indo-European since that too is a linguistic designation and not a racial one

>>2333724
weren't myceneans and minoans both pre IE?

The Mycenaeans were the catchall classification for the Indo-Europeans who descended in Greece roughly 1600 bc. Before the Mycenaeans the Greeks believed a prior civilization lived called the Pelasgians. Greek language begins with the Mycenaeans.

The Dorians who came afterwards roughly at the time of the Bronze age collapse are difficult to trace their origins. They could have been a paleo balkan people that assimilated the language. Or, they could have been Mycenaean settlers/warlords who were driven off in the past like the myth of the Heracleidae tells us.

In any case Greeks recognised four major sub-ethnic tribes, some of which spoke their own dialect (Attic Greek for example).These were the Dorians, the Ionians, The Aeolians, and the Achaeans.

The Ionians were descended from the Mycenaeans. While the Aeolians and Achaeans were probably a mix of Pelasgians and Mycenaeans.

As for the ancient Macedonians they are also difficult to classify, some say they were a Dorian offshoot, others say they were Aeolian settlers. Before Philip they were considered as hicks and uncultured

>>2333921
>Before the Mycenaeans the Greeks believed a prior civilization lived called the Pelasgians.
They wrote about the Pelasgians who they expelled from Athens though as if they still existed.

>>2333921
So minoans are basically islander pelasgians?

So Dorian was never a language?

>>2333921
I heard in a documentary that dorian tribes enslaved mycenean tribes and helots were the original myceneans while Spartans were dorians. This is BS right?

Also were lacaemedonians acheans?

>>2333724
>The term "the Greeks" does not refer to a single group of people
yes it does, actually

>>2334490
Doric was a dialect of Greek.

>>2333778

Minoans were non-European, Mycenaeans spoke Greek.

>>2334490
>So minoans are basically islander pelasgians?

No, Minoans were Minoans. There were also Pelasgians on Crete, the two don't seem to have been related, linguistically / culturally.

File: Menelaus.jpg (606KB, 1600x1200px) Image search: [Google]

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>>2334497
Lacedaemon is just the name of the city-state in Laconia centered on the city of Sparta. Though the Herodetian Lacedaemonians are what we might call "Spartans" today, it is technically only correct to refer to inhabitants of that principal Lacedaemonian settlement as such.

As Laconia is in the southeast of the Peloponnese and Achaea is in the north, Lacedaemonians/Spartans were not geographically Achaeans. However, the Homeric term "Achaeans," as well as "Argives" and "Danaans" refers to all the Greeks from various polities who were involved in the expedition against Troy, their origin or lack thereof in Achaea or Argos.

>>2334578
>>2334490
Well, Minoans were presumably indigenous to Crete and the other islands they occurred on, and so are Europeans in the geographic sense, but not Indo-Europeans, in the ethno-linguistic sense. You're right that they are apparently distinct from the Pelasgians though, in that there appears to have been discrete non-Minoan Pelasgian colonization on Crete from the mainland.

>>2334601
>>2334497

The Spartans of the Classical era considered themselves to be the descendants of Dorian invaders, and there's no obvious reason to dismiss this claim.

>>2334601
So do we have any remains of pelasgian civilisation?

What were they like? Do they have any similarities with other indigenous europeans like sardinians?

>>2334658

They didn't have a civilization. The Athenians were Pelasgians who adopted Greek culture, so "racially" they were fairly typically "white". But their language is unknown, barely any words of it were recorded but it does form part of the "pre-Greek substrate" and is noticeable in place names, particularly the -ss- found in many Greek place names which has no Indo-European cognate.

File: 6893859368_a11bccea13_b.jpg (406KB, 682x1024px) Image search: [Google]

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>>2334719
>>2334658

The Lemnos Stele is presumed to be a Pelasgian inscription, but of course it is untranslated.
>front:
A.1. hulaieš:naφuθ:šiaši
A.2. maraš:mav
A.3. sialχveiš:aviš
A.4. evisθu:šerunaiθ
A.5. šivai
A.6. aker:tavaršiu
A.7. vanalasial:šerunai:murinail
>side:
B.1. hulaieši:φukiasiale:šerunaiθ:evisθu:tuveruna
B.2. rum:haraliu:šivai:eptešiu:arai:tiš:φuke
B.3. šivai:aviš:sialχviš:marašm:aviš:aumai