Was there any instance of terrorism achieving it's desired

>>2291936
Yes. The Founding Fathers

>>2291936
Freikorps, Irish nationalists?

>>2291936
Crash a few planes, contractors earn billions. Pretty successful.

>>2291936

The rise of the Taliban in Afghanistan, the victory of the North Vietnamese or the communists in China. You have the concessions wrung towards the Palestinians, or the Hezbollah more or less takeover in Lebanon. You have lots of terrorist concessions.

>>2291952


The founding fathers weren't terrorists in the modern sense of the term; rebels, to be sure, but they attempted to fight a more or less conventional war.

>>2291966
>The founding fathers weren't terrorists in the modern sense of the term; rebels, to be sure, but they attempted to fight a more or less conventional war.

>founding fathers did not fight their government rule of King George
>not terrorist

>>2291966
There were several acts of terror in the American War for Independence anon-kun.

>>2291936
Commies in Tsarist Russia

>>2291966
I watched a documentary where Nicolas Cage steals the declaration of independence, and he mentions how the men who signed it were legally committing an act of treason and terror by doing so

>>2291936
But the goal was to bring the US into the Middle East to bleed it dry and build a new Terrorist utopia from the ashes, which seems to have worked so far.

>>2291966
Those are more guerilla movements that use terrorism too. But their success was more due to the fact that they were able to hold ground and take on armies. The North Vietnamese had a regular army and Communist Chinese forces were often more effective against the Japanese than the republican army.

I meant organizations that only or primarily target civilians (or even leading politicians like Anarchists used to back in the day).

>>2291966
Mental gymnastics pls go.

>>2291936
>Was there any instance of terrorism achieving it's desired political goals?
Sarajevo, 1914

Left-wing terrorism always work, because intellectuals and journalists convince governments that to placate left-wing terrorists you need to give money and power to the "moderate" left, which is the terrorist plan all along.

>>2291936
Israel.

>>2291969
>rebelling = terrorism
wew

>>2292157
All rebels are terrorists to the people they're rebelling against.

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>>2292161
Civil Wars are not terrorism, although they can be waged by terrorists.
Calling the Colonials terrorists in 1776 would be like calling the South terrorists in 1861.

Terrorist use terror to achieve their ends, revolutionaries use a variety of methods. In the case of the Colonial revolutionaries, they used open warfare against the King's Army, not terror to achieve their ends.
Rather it was the British using terror, mainly a commander in the southern colonies (of which the movie The Patriot, bases its villain on), who were using terror attacks to attempt to subdue the rebellion.

>>2292193
mental gymnastics gold medalist in town

>>2292202
Ironic shitposting is still shitposting, anon.

>>2291966
>Hezbollah
>terrorists

*tips ayatollah turban*

>>2292202
>I'm just pretending to be retarded

What is terrorism?

>>2291936
Literally Israel.

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King David Hotel Bombing
The first context of terrorism in the Middle East.

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>>2291936
>Right now it seems to me that terrorism (deliberately attacking civilians) never works.
>Posting a picture of 9/11
You clearly didn't live before 9/11 happen.

>>2291954
>Freikorps
this was an example of state sponsored terrorism, which pretty much works. many freikorps became brownshirts and they used terror to help the nazis attain power, so politically motivated paramilitary groups with a degree of organization can indeed further their groups through terrorism, as during the red terror of the Russian civil war, blackshirt terror in 1920 and 1921, or as the revolutionary guard and the moral police of Iran do to this day. On the other hand, individual acts of terror or international terrorism of radical islamists has achieved the goal of strengthened islamic radicals overall but led to the decline of the perpetrators like al qaeda as they got outflanked by the more radical and 'effective' isis.

>>2292916
so as I see it individual acts of terror are not that effective. they have achieved spooking westerners but i wouldn't say rogue terrrorists can be said to be successful yet. Events are still unfolding though..

I suppose ISIS has succeeded in a few of their goals. They control territory, have quite a number of dedicated participants, and a significant number of people have defected from their own countries around the globe in order to join up. If they were more intelligently managed, they would have achieved a greater deal of success by now.

That's going to rapidly stop being the case, though. Under Mattis, the US military is going to descend on them like the hammer of an angry god.

>>2291936
Zionism

>>2292932
>Under Mattis, the US military is going to descend on them like the hammer of an angry god.

Just like he did in Iraq 03-05?

Al Quaeda wanted the US to villify muslims and compromise its image as the bulwark of human rights

>>2292023
but that's the worst example possible. serbia never did incorporate bosnia and never achieved the larger goal of greater serbia. that was the motive behind the assasination senpai

TERRORISTS IN TODAYS WORLD IS NOT WHO YOU THINK THEY ARE, THE MEDIA JUST TRY TO TELL YOU THIS LIE

OPEN YOUR EYES

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5FNDRgPOLs

>>2293088
>what is yugoslavia

>>2292193
Pretty sure burning down the houses of people that didn't agree with you and forcing them to leave the country for not supporting your rebellion is using terror to get what you want
>Support my goals or fuck off or we'll kill you

>>2294858
Burning someone's house because they disagree with you and shooting randies you don't even know are different things.

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>>2292916
>>2291954
>fighting against insurgents
>terrorism

>>2292247
Shia are the ones with Ayatollahs, ya dingus.

>>2291966
The modern sense of the term applies to them because the modern sense of the term is absurdly broad

But even if it weren't they'd still qualfy

>>2297224
>The modern sense of the term applies to them because the modern sense of the term is absurdly broad


No it doesn't. In modern political science theory, terrorists are non-state actors who use violent acts directed against civilian populations in an attempt to coerce political concessions from one or more paties while evading retaliation.

The Founding fathers of America set up a state, and fought a regular, conventional, albeit non-total conflict to keep it.

>>2297254
Doesn't ISIS want to set up a caliphate though?

So does that make them not terrorists?

>>2291954
the irish didnt get shit

>>2297362
Exactly, "terrorism" is basically a code word for politically motivated violence that the user of the term doesn't like. No one uses suicide bombers or car bombs because they have an idealogical preference for those tactics, they use them because they're the perceived best/only available strategy to available to them. ISIS shows that the only reason "terrorists" don't use conventional tactics is because they didn't have the capability. As soon as they did have the capability, ISIS switched to taking and holding territory and maintaining an army.

>>2297372
Which Irish? The ones who got an independent Irish state sure did. The ones in North Ireland not so much.

>>2297397
The definition of terrorism is violence against non-combatants intended to intimidate the population into doing something.

Or at least that's the most common one.

>>2297372
>>>/r/AskHistorians

>>2297416
How is a military occupation not violence or threatened violence?

The FLN in Algeria, because the war made France unpopular internationally.

Irgun and Lehi because the allies stepped in to make a Jewish state after WWII.

Basically terrorists get what they want if they hold out long enough for the international community to step in on their side.

>>2291936
Terrorism is profit motivated not politically motivated.

>>2297433
If you're shooting civilians, that's terrorism.

If you're shooting people who are trying to kill you, that's regular warfare.

>>2297362

>Doesn't ISIS want to set up a caliphate though?

I believe they do, yes.

>So does that make them not terrorists?

If they succeed at doing so, set up a Westphalian style state, they would stop being terrorists, yes.

>>2294753
A complete disaster

>>2292193
thing about the 'villian' in the patriot is the guy he was based on wasnt a war criminal and was in fact twice the victim of american war crimes, once when he horse was shot out from under him while he was riding up to accept a proffered surrender - opening fire from under a white flag pretty much removes any protection it might offer you- and once when american troops murdered surrendered troops of his command in venegence for his troops pretty much doing what any body of troops does if a surrendered foe breaks its surrender to try and murder a respected commander.

nor was there a single instance of british troops under british command commiting a war crime, loyalists yes but then no worse than the revolutionaries

>>2297469
in that case mexico's drug war qualifies.

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>>2291936
the 2004 Madrid train bombings were done as retribution for Spain's involvement in the Iraq war. They were at the time the third largest coalition member behind USA and Britain.

This was done right before an election and led to a massive swing in polls in favor of the socialists who were running a campaign that centered on ending Spanish involvement in Iraq. The socialists won and shortly thereafter withdrew Spanish troops.

I guess you could call that an instance of terrorism working.

>>2298083
When Spain pulled a France

>>2292202
excellent argument you have there

>>2298113
or maybe their people realized they'd been lied to, there were no WMDs, and the Iraq was making them vulnerable to reprisal for no gain whatsoever

I wish our country had realized that as soon as they did.

>>2297362
I think in the popular sense of the word a lot of the meaning comes from pulling innocents into the violence.

That said having a legitimate state pushes you more into the Pyongyang type of rogue state class.

>>2297083
there's a difference between defeating ""insurgents"" who were barely fit to fight an actual armed struggle in bavaria and berlin, and indiscriminately killing all ""suspected"" perpetrators without recourse to the law, especially in a peacetime situation. The freikorps and the people controlling them unleashed a white terror that was disproportionate to the resistance they faced.

>>2293088
>that was the motive behind the assasination senpai
When will this fucking meme die?

Here is Gavrilo Princip in his own actual words:
>I am a Yugoslav nationalist, aiming for the unification of all Yugoslavs, and I do not care what form of state, but it must be freed from Austria.
Note that he was a Yugoslavist, not a Serb nationalist wanting a "greater Serbia" (yes, there was a huge difference at the time; see the struggles between the Democratic Party and the People’s Radical Party in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia for an obvious example) and that he did, indeed, achieve his goal.

>>2291936
>Was there any instance of terrorism achieving it's desired political goals?

Yes, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

>>2298743
this, for a history board people here sure post a whole lot of bullshit

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>>2298743
>When will this fucking meme die?
its not a meme
he was a serb nationalist and there's no beating around it.

Princip could say all he want but he was one of many actors and organization behind the assassination of the archduke, and all of these point to the fact that this was a terrorist organization sponsored by certain parts of the serbian government, and princip acted on behalf of serbian irrendentist claims already frustrated by the balkan wars and other tense standoffs with austo-hungary.

>>2291936
The US did exactly what Osama expected it to in reaction to the attacks, I'd say it was pretty fucking successful.

>>2297469
Only narcoterrorism is profit motivated

>>2298828
>he was one of many actors and organization behind the assassination of the archduke
Yes, but he was the one that carried it out and succeeded. And he did not share all the opinions of the people he worked with.
>this was a terrorist organization sponsored by certain parts of the serbian government
Yes, only you fail to mention that the Serbian government at this time was full of scheming factions with often contradictory goals. Most of the leading Serbian government figures were under the influence of the White Hand and pretty strongly opposed to the officers and officials who still plotted as the Black Hand. Black Hand rank-and-file tended to be influenced by various popular pan-Slavist movements (as with our Gavrilo here) even as the higher-ups stayed devoted to varieties of Serb nationalism. Serbian public opinion was split between several competing ideas, including a Serbian nationalism based on a national/cultural identity, a newer Serb nationalism based on a religious identity ("all Orthodox South Slavs are brother Serbs"), and Yugoslavism that mainly took root among the Serbs under Austrian government (once again, see Gavrilo). The Serb Yugoslavists tended to see Serbian suffering as part of larger narrative of South Slavic suffering under AH.
>princip acted on behalf of serbian irrendentist claims already frustrated by the balkan wars and other tense standoffs with austo-hungary
Princip was a radical that the irredentist Black Hand officers took advantage of, but that doesn’t mean his views aligned with theirs. They didn’t, as primary sources plainly show.

>>2291936
The colonists savagely drowned many crates of tea in Boston Harbour. If that isn't intended to strike terror in the hearts of every noble English heart I don't know what is.

>>2298864
hmm, you seem to have more in depth knowledge of the subject, so i take back what i say

still, yugoslavia failed :^)

>>2292161
>my daughter is become the typical teenage rebeller
>gun her down for act of terrorismus
My eternal gratitution goes to the men and woman of the Arm Forces.

>>2291966
>Hezbollah fight foreign occupiers and attack military units
>Viet Cong fight foreign occupiers and attack military units
>Founding Fathers fight foreign occupiers and attack military units
>lol but the last one doesn't count :^)

kys seppo

>>2292193
So that makes General Sherman a terrorist. Got it.

There's literally no way you can twist your warped definition of terrorism without implicating America in it as well.

>>2297406

The northern element are coming into their own now. Big salaries, dining with queens and presidents. They effectively forced a nuclear power to capitulate militarily.

Max Goldstein bombing in Romania.

He was a commie that bombed a government building. Government decided to lock up all commies. People started sympathising with commies. Add some Russian magic and you get communist Romania.