Considering what a monumental failure socialism has been historically

Because it has yet to be tried properly.

Autism, probably

>>2286590
>Because it has yet to be tried properly.

'It has yet to be tried in MY way so it has never been tried'
T. You

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>>2286590

*tips fedora*

Sheer desperation for an alternative to capitalism. It is pure hatred of private enterprise that keeps these people going.

Some of their autistic ilk split off around 1918 and became the first fascists, but they will never admit to it.

Because you are conflating different ideologies that share a same name. Why would the soviet disaster undermine the credibility of,say, social democracy or socialism understood as industrial democracy?

>>2286633

"Social democracy" is a spook

>>2286633
They're all failures though. I don't understand why anyone would want market socialism when surplus labor is bullshit and inequality is necessary

>>2286643
No more so than any other form of government.

>>2286580
What do you mean by socialism though OP?

Only richfags hate socialism, but they'll be liquidated under socialism so who cares really? I'll enjoy watching them squeal.

>>2286590
Socialism has, Communism hasn't.
The failure of Socialism only underscores the need for global revolution and universal anarchism. Marx and the CNT not Lenin and Stalin ok?

>>2286658
ObamaCare.

>>2286669
Is this satire?

>>2286672
What about Social Security? It's worth 1.2 trillion dollars. Do you consider that socialism too?

>>2286658
It's when the government does stuff, and the more the government does stuff, the more socialist it is.

>>2286683
everything is socialism.
Especially if it benefits other people.

>>2286687
>>2286685
>>2286672
>Roleplaying

>>2286580
Because capitalism is fucking awful and no other viable alternatives have been proposed.

>>2286595

>other people's money

Wasn't it mostly oil money and then the price collapsed? Not really other peoples money if their oil they sold.

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>>2286727
Capitalism is literally the most perfect system ever, because it is so flexible

>>2286727
>capitalism is fucking awful

Why

>>2286592
>>2286595

State socialism (or state capitalism, as it is sometimes called) has been tried, an economy based on both workers' self-management and employee ownership has not been tried.

>>2286737
There's no such thing as a perfect system. Even capitalism has problems even though it is very productive and efficient.

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>>2286737

>>2286759
>judging Aztec culture with a 19th century liberal morality

hehe

>>2286773
>feudalism
>bad

>ever equating glorious feudalism to the heinous jew slavery that is capitalism

>>2286809
>jew slavery
>bad

>>2286824
t. Baruch Schekelbaum

>>2286580
Most people don't flock to the left wing in the hope of the land of abundance anymore.
It was only in the period 1820-1960 that socialism was unironically promoted as a way to increase standards of living. Even in the 50s you had some pseud would-be aristocrat like Galbraith that were against "ridiculous" affluence.
The number one objective is to alleviate envy (collectivism being envy erected as a system). Except perhaps in a few third world countries (and even there) nobody claims seriously that going against property, responsibility and individualism will bring about the horn of plenty.

>>2286754
Why on earth would you even want that when ltv is bullshit and inequality would be necessary?

>>2286755
..and it's flexibility means that it can fix those problems. i,e negative externalities

>>2286801
>>2286773
Capitalism alleviates poverty

>not being a Syndicalist
tankies are just as bad as capitalists, muh incorruptible vanguard, muh human nature

]>>2286882
>ltv is bullshit
Nope

http://reality.gn.apc.org/econ/marxts.pdf

http://reality.gn.apc.org/econ/DZ_article1.pdf

>>2286893
>not being a Leninist
muh spontaneity, muh revolution will just happen, muh decentralised militias, muh state will dissolve and everything will be rosy

>>2286896
Lm-fucking-ao LTV hasn't been used since 1870. It doesn't explain prices at all.

Take Wine for instance. Mostly, wine improves with age. It improves even without the touch of a human or a machine. Also, older wine is more expensive. How can this work within the framework of the labour theory? Unfortunately it can't, not in any reasonable way. Some labour theorists would say that the increase in price of the aged wine is compensated for by the decrease in price of some other wine. This view doesn't work. If all wine were aged then it would all rise in price to some degree. This would happen even if the relative price between types of wine stayed the same. People would choose to drink the better wine rather than other drinks.
Furthermore, why do wine producers sell wine that's only 2 years old? Why don't they age it for longer? They could sell it for more money if they did. It would take longer for the profit to be realized though. This tells us that there's a time dimension to investment. This can't be explained by the exploitation theory.

>>2286896

Now, think about machinery. Is it true that the price of the machinery used to make a product is always factored into the price of the product? No, because of sunk costs. Suppose I design a machine to make a new type of sweet. The sweet isn't popular. Does that mean that I throw away the machine? Probably not. The scrap value of the machine would be low. As long as the price of the sweets produced is higher than the price of the inputs it's worth making them. To wise businesspeople past mistakes don't affect profit or loss issues at the current time.

For the labour theory to be true the selling price of capital goods would have to be related proportionally to their usefulness in the production process. In general, that isn't true. Capital goods are bought speculatively in the hope that they will be useful. Their practical input to the production process is often discovered later. Sometimes cheap machinery proves to be very useful just as sometimes expensive machinery proves to be less useful.

So, even if the price of capital inputs is proportional to the labour inhered in them, then the price of outputs cannot be. But, there is a chain. Capital goods are produced with other capital goods, and so on. If the proportionality breaks down at one stage then it remains broken.
So, the concept of labour value can't tell us anything interesting.

>>2286886
>..and it's flexibility means that it can fix those problems. i,e negative externalities

Really? So capitalism can fix overfishing for example without any regulation, even though it's a perfect example of the tragedy of the commons?

>>2286935
What? Why would we discard regulations? We can internalise the externality through a tax, for instance, or we can regulate it. Capitalism is a perfectly flexible system.

>>2286926
What about the energy that machines run on?

>>2286959
Elaborate

>>2286580
Why do people tread GDP as if its the only thing that matters? Its like IQ. An easy way to measure something that doesn't add up to much when you think about it critically.

>>2286926
Marxists are idiots though and think value is some metaphysical number separate from price while also being objective. It makes as much sense as voodoo and Marx only adopted an already outdated idea from Smith to quantify material alienation which is basically like taking Hegel and wiping your ass with him.

>>2286921
Wines are a very small aspect of production.

Ricardo dismissed this even before Marx

https://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/ricardo/tax/ch01.htm

>Possessing utility, commodities derive their exchangeable value from two sources: from their scarcity, and from the quantity of labour required to obtain them. There are some commodities, the value of which is determined by their scarcity alone. No labour can increase the quantity of such goods, and therefore their value cannot be lowered by an increased supply. Some rare statues and pictures, scarce books and coins, wines of a peculiar quality, which can be made only from grapes grown on a particular soil, of which there is a very limited quantity, are all of this description. Their value is wholly independent of the quantity of labour originally necessary to produce them, and varies with the varying wealth and inclinations of those who are desirous to possess them. These commodities, however, form a very small part of the mass of commodities daily exchanged in the market. By far the greatest part of those goods which are the objects of desire, are procured by labour,. and they may be multiplied, not in one country alone, but in many, almost without any assignable limit, if we are disposed to bestow the labour necessary to obtain them. In speaking then of commodities, of their exchangeable value, and of the laws which regulate their relative prices, we mean always such commodities only as can be increased in quantity by the exertion of human industry, and on the production of which competition operates without restraint.

>>2286983
also wine only becomes more valuable in its exchange value, not its use value

>>2286975
There's a very good reason why LTV was dropped in 1870. The far left like to treat it as some shill movement by economists to get away from Marxist thought, when in reality it was perfectly accepted until a better theory was put forward (something surrounding general equilibrium iirc)

>>2286968
Is the energy cost of running a machine factored into the cost of whatever the machine makes? Even if the energy itself was generated by a machine exploiting natural forces, way down the causality line human labor had to make something that made the whole thing possible. Sure it's indirect/abstract but everything eventually necessitated human labor.

>>2286983
He didn't dismiss it, he literally just ignores it. Mate, there is a reason why it hasn't been used since 1870.

>>2286926
You're basically just pointing out how production for profit works. Production for use is different.

>>2286992
Are you the guy a while ago who tried to claim that cultural/religious significance can be measured by thought labor or some shit?

>>2286997
The idea that the LTV isn't used is simply nonsense. Only the illusions of capitalism and the fact that we are alienated from the products of our labour makes it seem that value is subjective.

http://users.wfu.edu/cottrell/eea97.pdf

>>2286990
Yep, see how that one retard scrambles to distinguish between use value and exchange value disregarding that exchange is a form of use and it makes no sense to separate the two. It's all that moe retarded when you realize Marx describes money as a commodity.

>>2286590
thats because it doesnt work

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>>2287018

>>2286969

1. Real GDP per capita is positively correlated with life expectancy and infant mortality rate
2. Low levels of GDP and high levels of corruptions are correlated
3. Poverty reduction and per capita income growth performances are correlated
4. GDP per person is correlated to rule of law
5. GDP per capita and enrolment rates in secondary education are correlated
6. GDP and happiness is correlated
7. Unemployment is negatively correlated to GDP growth

>>2286773
those are big feet

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>>2287011
>The idea that the LTV isn't used is simply nonsense.
But it really isn't. Not even by Marxist economists. The dozen or so marxist economists in today's world and there has been a huge mounting defense claiming that his theories of exploitation still hold up without LTV

>>2287043
Economists disagree with each other, what else is new?

>>2286580
Many times it is nostalgia, related to nationalism. Many people from former colonial countries look fondly on the idea of their country 'taking business into their own hands' from rich capitalist owners of private companies from abroad.
Latinos like to be socialist as a way to defend against American influence and their ideologies. Same thing could be said about Yugoslavs, who were not under Soviet boot, neutral and their nationalist divisions were censored.

>>2287066
Nigga there is like a dozen economists who take it seriously while 99.99% of others use marginalism

>>2286992
>Go for a walk
>Find diamond on the ground

>Spend 3 years working working at a mine
>Find a diamond

Literally no difference in value

>>2287019
>analogies
Truly the argumentation choice of a simpleton

>>2287066
They often do, but there are claims that have broad consensus among economists (even though they are controversial among noneconomists), and one of such claims is "The LTV is wrong"

>>2287081
>marginalism
It's worthless for explaining long term price stability. Only useful in understanding short term fluctuations on a small scale, not the billions of decisions made every day by billions of people. Even then plenty of Marxists have integrated marginalism into their thought, like Kalecki. And some non-Marxists like Steve Keen provide a good refutation of marginal.

>>2287087
Rough diamonds are quite useless, as industrial material and as luxury items.

>>2287118
Steve keen is a fucking joke

>>2286754
>an economy based on both workers' self-management and employee ownership has not been tried

But that's exactly what Venezuela tried.

https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/11466

https://nacla.org/article/communal-state-communal-councils-communes-and-workplace-democracy

https://nacla.org/article/communal-state-communal-councils-communes-and-workplace-democracy

It failed even harder than state socialism.

>>2287166
WRONG

https://www.thenation.com/article/why-is-venezuela-in-crisis/

>>2287124
I could replace that with anything and my point would still stand

>>2287168
Sure, the collapse in food distribution networks after a land reform that created agricultural communes and the founding of a worker's managed distribution company is actually the fault of CIA economic warfare.

>>2287176
It's part of it. the cia tried to topple chavez in 2002

>>2287168
What a shit fucking article
>Nationalisations
>Expropriations
>Price controls
>Not leftist, actually social democratic bro!
They also didn't have anything to do with the crisis. It's clearly the fault of the Americans that companies won't invest in a country that is literally stealing /s

>Marxists no longer use LTV

Is this a joke? It's literally a fundamental presupposition of the whole theory, and it's impossible to explain concepts like capitalist exploitation without it.

>>2287182
There is no evidence of CIA involvement in that attempted coup, which unfortunately failed.

>>2287186
A number of Marxist economists and philosophers have attempted to explain how capitalism is exploitative without it. I'd say that they are trying to resurrect a dead horse, but what do I know.

>>2287191
>unfortunately failed
Stay mad

I'll enjoy watching you imperialists die in labour camps

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>>2287182
Muh CIA

>>2287183
>>Not leftist, actually social democratic bro!
Correct. Every country in the world intervenes in the economy, Statism isn't socialism.

>companies won't invest in a country that is literally stealing
Waaahhhh muh private property

Capitalism is theft.

>>2287124
>not understanding the point

T. Marxist

>>2287198
Lmao everything left of social democracy is completely and utterly dead in the Western world

>>2287198
Is this bait or do you unironically support Chavez?

>>2287197
>I'd say that they are trying to resurrect a dead horse

I'd say you're right.

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Intellectuals support socialism because it empowers the intelligentsia.

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>>2287201
America then, same shit.

https://williamblum.org/chapters/freeing-the-world-to-death/us-coup-against-hugo-chavez-of-venezuela-2002

>>2287204
>Socialist party is elected to transition into a socialist society, i,e seize the means of production
>Does exactly that
>Somehow socialism is absolved because no true socialismTM

>wah muh private property
Mate I was just explaining why Venezuela collapsed, learn to cop it on the chin.

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>>2287220
U mad? His reforms saved Chile from inflation and pathed the way for long term prosperity (which they did)

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>>2287220
Why do American leftists think Latin American lack agency and anything that goes against progressive ideology must be the fault of the CIA and the U.S. government?

By the way, if the coup succeeded, Venezuela wouldn't be in crisis and it wouldn't have become one of the most violent countries in the world. Maybe the CIA should have actually supported the coup attempt with their expertise. We would have a lot of leftists talking about how the U.S. prevented REAL SOCIALISM from happening another time, but the Venezuelan people would have fared better in the end.

>>2287207
For now

>>2287209
as an anti-imperialist yes. economically he left much to be desired, all he really did was increase welfare spending

>>2287223
>i,e seize the means of production
>Does exactly that
No he fucking didn't, christ. Most of Venezuela's economy is still in private hands. it doesn't even have progressive taxation, income tax is a flat 34%. State spending isn't at the level of most East European countries, let alone Norway or Finland

And no the PSUV wasn't elected to make Venezuela socialist; it was more a protest vote and tons of "socialist" parties are in power across the world while maintaining capitalism. A name means nothing.

It's barely social democratic. Welfare capitalist at best.

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>>2287230
I'm not American. They don't lack agency but American intervenes all the fucking time when anyone dares to stand up to capitalism. America sees Latin America as their backyard to exploit and rule with an iron fist from behind the scenes, through puppets like Armas and Batista.

>>2287236
Just see those articles: >>2287166

And this

https://venezuelanalysis.com/news/6216

http://www.pcint.org/07_TP/005/005-venezuela.htm

People nowadays just ignore the extent Chavez and Maduro have went to transform the economy of Venezuela accordingly to actual communist theories of communal management and worker's control.

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>>2287241
>American intervenes all the fucking time when anyone dares to stand up to capitalism

Thank you, Uncle Sam. We are now seeing what happens when America doesn't intervenes.

>>2287241
>>2287257
>countries that have accepted being American puppets
>Colombia, Peru, Chile
>fast-growing economies, reducing violence

>countries that stand up to America
>Venezuela, Brazil, Argentina
>collapsing economies, increasing violence

The gringo fist is iron, but fair.

>>2287241
>Anyone dares to stand up to capitalism
Ahh, because Soviet intervention is just the voice of the people

>>2287273
Yes, just like Salvador Allende being a KGB agent was normal, while Pinochet informing the CIA he planned a coup is proof of U.S. intervention.

>>2287267
Argentina liberalised in the 80s, didn't they?

>>2287278
In the 1990s, then they pegged their currency to the dollar and burned their reserves to maintain it for too long, the economy collapsed and commies blamed "neoliberalism".

>>2287230
Yeah I mean all look at all those succesful countries with CIA pushed coups in their past, like Haiti, Guatemala, Nicaragua. We need more of those!

>>2287257
I'd rather suffer under socialism than be a wageslave under capitalism.

Not that I'd suffer. I'm working class so it's in my interest.

>>2287267
Wow, the most powerful country in the world is able to manipulate economies to suit its agenda, who knew?

>>2287273
Mostly, yes. Counter revolutions need to be put down with unrelenting force.

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>>2287305
>I'd rather suffer under socialism than be a wageslave under capitalism.

You are free to move to a socialist country.

Unfortunately, people who live in socialist countries and would rather be a wageslave under capitalism are usually not free to move.

>>2287305
Haha. Funny guy. Run along now little edgelord

>>2286580
>>>/pol/

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>>2287316
>You are free to move to a socialist country.
Not really, I have obligations here and I can't speak Spanish (Cuba is the only remotely socialist state).

>Unfortunately, people who live in socialist countries and would rather be a wageslave under capitalism are usually not free to move.

Freedom in that sense is an illusion, mostly just for increasing the reserve pool of labor. Only when socialism has replaced capitalism can we have truly free movement.

>>2286633
This.

>>2287333
You fuck off. It is not /pol/ to hate a destructive idea

>>2287336
>Quoting Stalin
Haha lol my dude

You can go now

>>2287342
It's /pol/ to talk about politics.

>>2286643
A very successful spook

>>2286685
Is this satire?

>>2286754
>>capitalism is fucking awful
>Why
I'm not that dude, but unrestrained capitalism and unrestrained communism both inevitably lead to the majority of the population being hurt, the industrial revolution is an example of unchecked business power ruining the lives of the population, whilst stalinist russia is a good example of untermpered communism hurting peopele.

>>2287347
>not falling under economics
>not falling under philosophy
>not falling under history
Feel free to sage it friend

>>2287344
Uncle Joe is still popular even in Russia

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11506970/Proportion-of-Russians-who-respect-Stalin-is-growing-poll-suggests.html

>>2287347
/pol/ is not politics, it's the politically incorrect board

>>2287289
Yeah nevermind increasing unemployment and cost of life during liberal Men*m

>>2287350
mocking liberal/reactionary concepts of socialism

>>2287357
>This board is for the discussion of news, world events, political issues, and other related topics.

>>2287351
>the industrial revolution is an example of unchecked business power ruining the lives of the population
You're a fucking idiot. Go read Krugman's in praise of cheap labour. There is no "one side is equal to the other!1!!!1" argument to be made. Capitalist systems have brought about prosperity and are rapidly alleviating poverty & inequality. Communism is a consistently failed idea and has (rightly) lost all relevance. It is built around a misunderstanding of price theory. It has zero empirics. It is a fucking mess

>>2286737

>>2287353
I don't give a shit about the popularity of someone who committed genocide you stupid fuck

>>2287363
Not sure why you, as a socialist, have any right to mock anyone. Especially since the entire sum of your ideology is now pointing and yelling "no true socialism" and posting pictures of fat guys with a bag of money

>>2287370
What genocide?

>>2287374
I'm more than happy to defend Marxism-Leninism. I don't care for liberal hand wringing.

>>2287381
Haha

>>2286580

Intellectuals want a society in which the role of intellectuals is supreme, or at any rate important. Planned economies and massive government spending create this.

>The explosive component in the contemporary scene is not the clamor of the masses but the self-righteous claims of a multitude of graduates from schools and universities. This army of scribes is clamoring for a society in which planning, regulation, and supervision are paramount and the prerogative of the educated. They hanker for the scribe's golden age, for a return to something like the scribe-dominated societies of ancient Egypt, China, and Europe of the Middle Ages. There is little doubt that the present trend in the new and renovated countries toward social regimentation stems partly from the need to create adequate employment for a large number of scribes. And since the tempo of the production of the literate is continually increasing, the prospect is of ever-swelling bureaucracies.

>>2287420
A real time computer planned economy will be excellent.

Like Cybersyn

>>2287420
But economists are completely against this, planned economies at least

>>2287428
Literally impossible

>>2287438
Why? The computing power is there. We already have an interconnected world economy and corporations utilise planning all the time. The idea of a free market is an illusion.

>>2287438

In theory, maybe.

In practice however most of the jobs available to economists are in government regulatory agencies. It's not hard to see the conflict between ideology and professional demands.

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>>2287446
>The idea of a free market is an illusion.

>>2287451
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmakLRxGbW8&feature=related

http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/Econ_Articles/Command_Corporations.html

>>2287473

>Foam Kikesky

Lol

Corporations do a good deal of planning but they are still subject to market forces. Moreover, their entire purpose is directed at a very concise and specific end. You can't run a government the way you run a company.

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>>2286592

Stop this meme.

It has been tried and been successful in Cuba.

>>2286580

>using nominal gdp instead of PPP

pleb

>>2287478
antisemites not welcome

>>2286983
>These commodities, however, form a very small part of the mass of commodities daily exchanged in the market. By far the greatest part of those goods which are the objects of desire, are procured by labour,. and they may be multiplied, not in one country alone, but in many

Because it is based on some fundamental ideas about the world which arose independently several times in similar forms, mohists, various religions that renounced materialism, luddites, lollards, diggers and probably more. These ideas often end up being used by politicians.

I say this as a libertarian. To understand the value of individual rights you need a realistic view of what happens without them as well as what happens with them and who has them. Rulers will always have these rights, including leaders of revolutions. The question is whether you allow the poor to have them as well.

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>>2286580

Four out of five PIIGS can't be wrong.

>>2287257


Venezuela is an example of what happens when the oil price plunges over 50%. Just a few years ago they were considered wealthy. It has very little to do with socialism. Many oil rich states subsidize their populations with oil revenues, it's how they stay in power, it's the reason oil is usually cited as the number one impediment to democracy. Be it Texas, Saudi Arabia, or Russia, oil is generally bad for civil liberties.

t. economist

>>2287507
Unless of course you're a welfare state called Norway, then apparently it's good for civil liberties.

>>2287507
But other countries that are as dependent on oil (if not more) as Venezuela such as Kuwait, UAE and Qatar seem to be doing fine, why is that?

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>>2286580
>haha you say socialism have never been tried? Fuckingt tools
>Scandinavia
>n-n-no, that's not my special snoflake kind of socialism so it doesn't count, socialism has never been tried ;_;

>>2287534
It's not socialism. It's welfare capitalism.

The Scandinavian countries are some of the most capitalist on the planet, and even my country Norway has less corporate tax than the U.S does.

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>>2287507

>expand government spending enormously by nationalizing the oil industry
>economic performance and general welfare of the country now tied to the price of crude
>oil drops
>economic collapse
>i-it was the petroleum's fault!

Will these delusions never end?

>>2287525
those countries have borderline slave labour from Bangladesh/India

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_workers_in_Saudi_Arabia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafala_system

>>2287507

It's because having one stupid, bureaucratic power determining what should and shouldn't be pursued leads to poor diversification, rather than allowing market forces to derive value where they may be and react to a price change in the mean time

>>2287438
Literally already here.
Reminder that most wall-street transactions and investments are done by machines.

Our generation will be the one to see the rise of AI in government. Machines replacing most human work will happen within our lifetime. It's up to us tp decide whether this power will be used to favour all of mankind or just the rich elite. Unless you're a millonaire burguois I'd advice you to become class concious before you regret it.

>>2287545

It was an excuse. Nationalistic reasons were used to nationalize Suez for example. The trait of despotisms to secure vital economic resources to maintain themselves has existed for millenia. The Spanish empire were far from socialists, why did they monopolize the salt trade for example?

I can see that you have approached the second tier of understanding, but you have several tiers to go before you can identify the difference between overt explanations and actual causes of events.

>>2287520

Norway only just tapped its oil fund last year, and only withdrew 1/8 of a percent of the value. If you actually knew anything about how the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund works, you'd know they invested every cent previous to and after this. Their welfare state is also supported by having an extremely low population density relative to their abundant resources, which includes much more than oil. They can usually balance their budget with their normal economy.

Oil despotisms tend to use a large portion of yearly revenues on maintenance and funding the government, which provides surpluses in some years, and massive deficits in others.

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/03/07/norway-taps-its-oil-fund-for-the-first-time.html

>>2287525

All shining examples of freedom and democracy.

The Gulf Arab states massively subsidize everything from fuel to food for domestic consumption. Saudi Arabia trying to reform its economy has been a meme for the past few decades, but with all the vested interests it'd be surprising to see all the Saudi princes willingly give up their oil stipends.

>>2287563

That's the classical assumption, but as always political expediency takes precedence. OPEC has so much market power it has rigged the global oil price for decades. The global market is the closest you can get to a perfect market, and if even that can be fixed, then the invisible hand is sleeping.

>>2287507
>let's ignore the socialist economic policies
>let's ignore the nationalizations and expropriations
>let's ignore the attempt to build a communal state
>let's ignore the incentives for criminals to rob people as "social justice"
>let's just blame oil prices

>>2287833
They did that when oil prices were high, too. Didn't work out so bad, what with the oil based economy.
Then prices dropped.

Really now, if we get to thinking that poor economic decisions are a result of ideology we run the risk of ourselves making poor economic choices on our own perceived infallibility.

>>2287833

Oil prices provided the leeway for these policies to be implemented in the first place. If not for the oil, we wouldn't be talking about this now because the issue would have resolved itself a decade ago.

>let's just blame oil prices

Let's look at concrete evidence and actual statistics.

>>2287862
Base your entire economy around oil is a fuck up of their planned economy though

>>2287915

Imagine you are president of a country which exports oil. Government expenditure is 80 billion. Now you can raise taxes to pay for that amount, or you can raise no new taxes and simply pay for it with oil. Which option is more politically feasible? Which option would the current US administration choose if given the option?

I think, if you actually analyze the situation, socialism is not the common denominator.

>>2287933
the US can only fuck with you so much before it becomes a better idea to sell to China

>>2287480
My Cuban born Spanish high school teacher would disagree

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>>2287525
>But other countries that are as dependent on oil (if not more) as Venezuela such as Kuwait, UAE and Qatar seem to be doing fine, why is that?

They aren't, but since they're US allies our media doesn't cover their problems as obsessively as they do Russia, Iran and Venezuela.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-oger-restructuring-idUSKCN11E153

http://www.businessinsider.com/qatar-financial-gas-price-crash-2016-1

http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Low-Oil-Prices-Security-Issues-Deal-Death-Blow-To-Kuwaiti-Parliament.html

>>2287540
don't argue with colonials. Social democracy is socialism to them and so is national socialism.

>>2286580
Because in the western world there is something that a planned economy can exterminate: inflation.

That table again
>Using GDP as a measure of success
>Using GDPs in countries that don't have a market ecoconomy,
>using GDP in dollars for countries with heavily controlled currencies that are poorly exchangable
>comparing countries with war destruction to those with minor or no war destruction
and MOST IMPORTANTLY
>comparing 1990s when these countries just collapsed
if this were 1938 to 1975, that would be better, but it's still retarded to analyze socialist economies using GDP.

>>2286580
Some of those countries didn't exist in 1938, you fucking moron.

>>2286590
When everytime its tried it ends in mass murder famine and tyranny maybe its time to stop trying

>>2290144
All of them existed, albeit with slightly different names and borders.

>>2288580
>Inflation is a bad thing
Who geez hello retard

>>2287480
>Cuba
>not a total shithole

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>>2290554
>shithole becomes slightly less of a shithole despite being closed off from its biggest trading partner
>Lol it is shithole!

>>2290573
>far left
>trading with America
>receives billions from Soviet Union
>ignore everything we know about economics
>declines relative to countries that were similar to it
Leftism is a mental illness

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>>2286892
>drinking the kool aid

So, how life in an oppressive surveillance state? Did you sieg he... I mean did salute the flag today like a good boy? How's your medical debt coming along? What's it like actually having to decide between medical treatment and bankruptcy or no treatment? How does it feel to know that your government can kill you at any time without cause, court order or due process? How does it feel to know that all your info gathered by the NSA is freely traded between agencies?

So, how's capitalism working out again? Must be great living in the land of the """""""""free""""""""""

>>2286580
Why don't you won't a fully automated, post labour society anon?

Does the failure of the Soviet Union somehow negate our society ever evolving from the current model?

>>2290584
>implying America didn't embargo Cuba
>implying Cuba can maintain an effective trade relationship half a globe away
>implying Soviet Union is even comparable to USA in terms of industrial power

Well, socialism is a reaction to the evils of capitalism.

>>2290588
see
>>2286737
I'm not american retard. Literally everything you just listed is not exclusive to capitalism and capitalism is flexible enough to include a welfare state so things like medical debt aren't an issue. Your criticism of capitalism is fucking hilarious

>>2290595
>CUBA
>Steal billions from US companies by taking their land

>CUBA
>A far left dictatorship
>Trading with a western capitalist economy.
Literally lamo-ing at you rn. The sheer delusion of the far left is hilarious. Keep peddling your shit tier 19th century ideology with zero empirics. Pure. Fucking. Retard.

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>>2290632
>American companies exploit Cubans
>whine when they fight

>countries can't trade with one another coz they don't agree ideologically
>USA still trade with Middle East and China
Keep wallowing in pure ideology

>>2290700
>American companies exploit Cubans
>whine when they fight
Oh fuck off. They stole billions in American company land. Yeah it's totally reasonable to assume America won't retaliate

>Cubans steal American land, industry
>Whine when they fight
I'm FEELING the ideology

>countries can't trade with one another coz they don't agree ideologically
Hurr durr I'm going to ignore the cold war hurr durr ebil capitalists

I can't wait for the US to normalise relations so Cuba can get the full force of IMF cock

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>>2290632
>Literally everything you just listed is not exclusive to capitalism and capitalism is flexible enough to include a welfare state so things like medical debt aren't an issue.

If you truly believe this then you either:

A. Have to accept that socialism is a good thing too

Or

B. Seriously consider an hero

>>2290756
Central planning. Market socialism. One or the other.

Hmm oh yes I see your point how flexible.

>>2287087
the value of a commodity is based on the average labour time it takes to produce. your objection is asinine. marxists dont belive labour bestows some metaphysical value on a commodity.

>>2288624
>>Using GDP as a measure of success

Nothing wrong with this, see: >>2287022

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>>2286590
This desu

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>>2287228
>nixon stops capital exports to Chile
>be surprised when inflation happens

Because millennials was a huge mistake.

Socialism doesn't work.

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>>2290725
>stealing from Cubans is good
>when they do it is bad
Naked tribalism. I make no excuse for the violence in the renationalization, only that there was no non-violence way to resolve this injustice

>Muh Cold War
>when USA started it by embargoing
>still embargo 2 decades after Cold War is over
Still drowning in pure ideology

>>2290931
Do you unironically think that this was the only cause of hyperinflation?

>free trade is a bad thing
>Cuba is a shithole because of US embargo

Choose one and only one, commies

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>>2290945
It was a great deal of it, as well as a massive drop in copper prices, which weren't Allende's fault.

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>>2290948
>embargoes and protectionism are the same thing

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>>2290931
>land reform, expropriations, government intervention in the economy, printing money to pay for welfare policies, none of this caused hyperinflation
>U.S. sabotage did it

What is the thing about socialists and making excuses for everything? Is it a pathological thing? Maybe understanding the link would help us understand the appeal of socialism for a certain psyche.

>>2286580
>why did this country which was decimated in WW1 and WW2 which had a 10% literacy rate until the 1940s and was basically still feudalist not do well as all these other countries who recieved funds from a giant and prosperous country which profited from both World Wars while at the same time not loosing anything cause it was on a whole different continent.
I may not like Stalinists and Sovietboos,but historically most,if not all "socialists" countries (or countries which deemed themselves socialist) were undeveloped and far far FAR behind their western counterparts.
It was true for my country,and it was true for most of them.Literally 90% of everything build here was built during socialism.

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>>2290892
Except GDP doesn't settle for wealth distribution/income inequality. If 90% of the population earns >10.000 and 10% of the population makes <100.000 up to .000.000.000 for arguments sake you wil have a high gdp, but still lots and lots of poverty

get of the internet grandpa, you need to take your medicines you senile cunt

>>2291820

Meant for

>>2290932

>>2291593
This.

Daily reminder that, while the Warsaw Pact was generally worse to live in than the West:

A. WW2 was infinitely more harsh in the East than in France/Benelux

B. No Marshall Plan

C. The Soviets were fighting partisans in much of Eastern Europe until the 50s

D. Much of the German (and some Czech, Polish and Hungarian) industry/workers were sent East to repair Russia's devastated heartland.

E. The Russian cultural paranoia that dates back to the Tsars and continues today (ie: constant fear of encirclement)

It wasn't a barren hellscape.

>>2291593
This. Something that irks me about the Cold War is that USA and Soviet Union are often portrayed as giant superpowers that could go toe to toe. But in reality one left WW2 with its industries, economy and population slightly damaged while the other fought an extremely bloody and destructive. With that huge headstart, it will be really hard for the Soviet to catch up with USA. Whether or not they could or it is just proporganda idc, but people tend to overlook that head start that USA had compared to the whole world post WW2 (exceptions are the Anglo countries minus UK)

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Capitalism is an endless failure to this day