If Marx rebirth and sees all those atrocities that were committed

>You have it all wrong retards, let me show you it was was supposed to be
>Oops!

>>2260275
He approved of revolutionary terror so no

>>2260349
No my friend, you got it all wrong, I guess you'll just have to

>Let ME show you how it was supposed to be
>Oops!

>>2260275

He would scream "not real socialism", then try socialism again, then collapse, then scream "not real socialism", then try socialsim again, then collapse, then

>>2260275
He wanted to genocide Serbs, Scots, Basques and Bretons.

>>2260653
I like the meme that this has literally ever happened ever.

There's only been Stalinist Central Planning in economically backward nations.

Do rightists just not understand history?

>>2260275
Marx would've punched Lenin in the face had they ever met.

>>2260653
oh fuck off

>>2261710
>Not real!

>>2260662
what and you don't?

>>2261797
socialism has a pretty clear and distinct definition, just because someone calls something socialism doesn't mean it it

I guess the democratic peoples republic of korea is a democratic peoples republic?

>>2261797
Stalinism is a different form of Communism. It doesn't mean it isn't real Communism. Stalinism doesn't work, but maybe Trotskyism will, or Orthodox Marxism, or Anarcho Communism.

>>2261710
More like they don't understand how language work. The word used to convey certain meaning is completely irrelevant.

>>2261813
Why has it always ended up being Stalinism, even when the oft-stated revolutionary goal is not Stalinism at all?

It's not possible that the system doesn't realistically account for the individual's will to power... is it?

>>2261828
>Why has it always ended up being Stalinism, even when the oft-stated revolutionary goal is not Stalinism at all?
Wrong. Most revolutions were explicitly soviet inspired. The ones that weren't didn't.

>>2261834
Soviet bankrolled and funded, yes, but Stalinism wasn't the dream they sold to the poor.

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>>2260275
He barely described communism, he mostly critiqued capitalism.

>>2261842
I don't see your point, really.

>>2261857
>Stalinist Central Planning isn't real communism
>What is sold to the population as 'real' communism inevitably ends up being Stalinist Central Planning
>This is because Communist systems do not adequately account for an individual's will to take and maintain power

tldr 'not real' a shit

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>>2261828
>>2261873
>he's trying to criticise communism without even knowing the fundamental differences between Leninism and Libertarian socialism

>>2261873
>Stalinist Central Planning isn't real communism
Words are irrelevant, but if you use the normal definition of communism that is correct.

>What is sold to the population as 'real' communism inevitably ends up being Stalinist Central Planning
Non sequitur.
You're also wrong since soviets and their equivalents were always vanguardists. You seem to be implying that every revolution turns vanguardist regardless of its principles but that incorrect. The ones that were carried out by vanguardists end up being vanguardist and the ones that weren't didn't. It's not like soviets were libertarians that turned evil.

>This is because Communist systems do not adequately account for an individual's will to take and maintain power
In that case your argument would be that communism is impossible, and that "not real communism" is a truism.

>>2260275
Marx himself was a sick Hebrew who would be happy many Europeans died under his name.

>>2261886
Not an argument

>>2261898
>Words are irrelevant
Great start
>Non sequitur
I disagree

Vanguardism and its alternatives is beyond the scope of reasoning of the average citizen of a nation undergoing revolution. The propaganda they hear will concern the dictatorship of the proletariat, and the reality they find themselves in will be the dictatorship of a dictator.

>In that case your argument would be that communism is impossible, and that "not real communism" is a truism.
Correct. I'll acknowledge that I'm not phrasing my posts as clearly as I could, but this is as far as I'm able to go for an over-breakfast 4Chan spat.

>>2261954
>Correct
Good, then we have nothing to argue, soviet communism is not communism by its usual definition, and whether you believe that communism as usually defined is possible or not is another discussion that I'm not really interested in.

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>>2261797
>be state capitalist
>tell people you've achieved full communism
>LOOK AT THE EVILS OF COMMUNISM MUH FIFTY GORILLION

This is level of revisionism is beyond black pharaohs.

How does the "If it has a red flag, it's communism" school of thought explain how the largest economy in the world, which experienced the most spectacular economic growth in our lifetime, has a Marxist Economy, while western capitalist states have stagnated?

>>2260354
Neither the Ukrainian famine nor the great purge were revolutionary terror.

Revolutionary terror is when you depose and imprison the old ruling order in your establishment of a proletarian government.

>>2260653
This meme is so retarded because it implies more than one specific socialist ideology has resulted in failure

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>>2260653

>fail
>"just give up bro!"

Not an argument.

>>2261981
>Animal kingdom
>closest analogue to communism: sea sponge. No differentiation; an amalgam of cells. Only competitive advantage is its lack of complexity.
>Closest analogue to hierarchical state: man. Brain is 2% of mass, gets 20% of energy. Competitive advantage is the ability to manipulate the word to its needs.

>Thinking communism could ever out compete hierarchical state.

communism is delusional, the universe doesn't work that way. This is the problem with scientific metaphysics, its only criteria for possibility is 'follows laws of physics.' It needs some teleological principles to ground us in whats possible.

Marx raped his maid and let his children starve

>>2262062
This is the worst post I've seen on this site in the past 6 hours

>>2262062
How could marx forget about sea sponges? What a rookie mistake!

>>2261993
What I am saying is that he didn't consider terrorism to be a bad thing, so there is no reason to believe that he would be against mass killings under Communist regimes

>>2262089
May your next six hours be as enjoyable as your first six hours.

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>>2262106
Kek. Screengrabbed for posterity.

>>2262111
So all revolutionaries would approve of mass killings?

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>>2262075
proofs? Even if he did that wouldn't influence the validity of his work.

>>2262089
>>2262106
The patterns of reality repeat. Good luck bringing about a communist state that doesn't devolve into 'state capitalism.'

>>2262106

i hate you reds but i spit my drink at this.

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>>2262062

>Man is the thesis and sea sponges are the antithesis

The Revolution can't come sooner.

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>>2262159
>devolve
>implying it isn't necessary for transitioning towards communism

Unless you're transitioning via anarchism you will have to deal with the dictatorship of the proletariat. The luck factors in whether or not the big names will actually give worker's ownership of the factories and other means of production and not be greedy shits.

>>2262213
If you have "big names" then the proletariat is not in charge.

>>2262134
Only those that approve of terrorism i.e. most of them

>>2262089
>>2262106
>>2262184

So lets take this a step further. Marx's historical materialism places productive capacity and social relations as the determiners of society. Man, then, is just a unit of production.

In an animal, the animal in its entirety is the commonwealth whether it be a sponge or a man. The cells are to the animal what men are to society- productive units organized in some social relations. Cells within a hierarchical social relationship create the animal. In Man, the brain is the nobility, taking far more resources than is considered 'fair' or 'equitable.' The remaining cells, in their many forms, are the proletariat. Nerves can even be petty bourgeoisie, playing into the brains social relations for a middling position in the hierarchy.

A sea sponge, at least to me, seems to follow communism fairly well. Cells are undifferentiated and relatively unorganized. Every cell, being undifferentiated, gets an equal amount of resources. BUT, the 'commonwealth,' the sea sponge itself, is an amorphous blob. Incapable of any complex actions, manipulation of the environment.

Now tell me how communism, which holds as an ideal the anarchic state that resembles a sponge, will ever out compete a centralized state, which resembles a man ordered by his brain.

>>2262228
If you own factories/means of production, you are capitalist. If not, you are proletarian.

The leaders of the revolution forms a new transitional state capitalist government and redistribute the means of production to workers and stabilize the shitfest caused by the revolution as well as suppressing capitalist counter-revolutionaries.

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>>2262184
>Sythesis
Ia! Ia! Workers, Ftaghn!

>>2262286
This is honestly hilarious.

>>2262306
Revolutionary catalonia didn't need a state capitalist government to manage redistribution for the workers. Just let the workers and their organizations/syndicates do it.

>>2262332

Not too familiar with Anarchism desu.

>>2262332
Catalan here.

About what you said: nope. The government controlled the syndicates that managed the redistribution. Those syndicates and/or parties (CNT, POUM, PSUC and others) followed the instructions of the Catalan regional government even during the Civil War.

>>2262062
What the fuck is this

>>2260653
that's a misrepresentation of the argument. Leninism, an ideology that seeks to implement communism, has been tried a lot. Other sorts of communism have not been tried.
It really depends on how people define communism. If it's "the regime implemented by a party that calls itself communism", then yes, it is communism. But that's not the definition that, say, Marx gave.
Also, the USSR never claimed to have achieved communism. All states dominated by Marxist-Leninist states so far have only called themselves "Socialist", not "Communist". On Marxian terms, socialism is a "stateless, classless society", which definitely does not correspond to the USSR or similar experiments.
There are also many communists who reject the USSR. You might say, "but they support the same ideology" — however, that would be a big mistake. Even at the time of the Russian revolution there were substantial ideological differences among those who call themselves communists.
For instance, see what Lenin wrote on "Left-Wing Communists" (which includes people like Emma):
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/lwc/
Or Rosa Luxemburg's views on the Russian Revolution, in which she criticises Lenin and Trotsky:
https://www.marxists.org/.../lux.../1918/russian-revolution/
Even Fidel, a Marxist-Leninist, disagreed with Stalin on some issues (see this article where he says what he thought Stalin did wrong):
https://www.marxists.org/.../archive/castro/1992/06/03.htm
Usually the people saying "true communism hasn't been tried", on those precise terms, are indeed misinformed and need to get a better grasp of how totalitarianism happens, but the argument that "all the actions of those who call themselves communists leads necessarily to regimes akin to the USSR" is severely misinformed. Just look at revolutionary Catalonia and the CNT — radically different from the USSR, which is sufficient evidence that being communist does not imply being Stalin number 2.

>>2263258
Thank you

>>2262306
>lets hand over absolute power and everyones property to a small clique violent of crooks and Jews
>surely they will redistribute it fairly

>>2263258
read dis