How do you justify eating meat? Do you consider hunting morally

>>2237194
Well-managed hunting, like we have in Missouri, can actually benefit wildlife populations. There is a great deal of science behind wildlife management. If you're interested, look up some articles in the Journal of Wildlife Management.

>animals taken out of the wild and domesticated, placed into a manmade environment where they become property from which value is derived from

Am I describing livestock or pets? You decide, you fucking contradictory hippies.

>>2237210
I often have heard many vegans say that these benefits are a myth and the need for hunting is artificially created to ensure hunting season

>http://bitesizevegan.com/environmental-societal-impact/deer-hunting-overpopulation-solution-or-cause/

>>2237194
>How do you justify eating meat?
Hunger and several hundred thousand years of my ancestors doing it.

>>2237194
I want to faggot

Fuck me, vegans are almost as bad as antinatalists. Go eat a steak and get over it.

Humanity is literally not brainlets because of meat.

Vegans are horrible insane misdirected people.

That being said factory farming is creepy as shit but beef is still delicious so whatever.

>>2237210
I can guarantee you that 99.999% of the people do not hunt for meat. Nor do they grow their vegetable for meat.

>>2237262
What a terribly sourced and speciously reasoned article based on a semantic argument about "overpopulation" versus "overabundant". It even argues that man is not a part of nature which is simply preposterous.

>>2237313
>can guarantee you that 99.999% of the people do not hunt for meat
I would love to see some statistics behind that guarantee.
The sources over at field&stream say in 2013 35% of hunters hunt for meat, 31% for sport and recreation

>>2237285
Well, I know that's not the best argument but my great grandfather was in the SA and I don't think I share his thoughts on morality even though he is my one of my ancestors.
I'm no vegetarian or vegan myself but I'm starting to struggle with me because several studies suggest that meat causes heart diseases in later life. Additionally we are no longer in need of animal products to live healthy. But I admit, I'm not very educated on this field so I'm asking for sources and research on health related issues and maybe philosophical, ethical views on it.

>>2237194
I don't eat meat and can't personally justify doing it. While I don't consider hunting morally acceptable, I consider it much less morally egregious than factory farming and have respect for families that do it to ensure food gets put on the table.

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What is there to justify? To deserve to have morals applied on you, you must be able to apply morals on others.

Also, we have this thread all the time.

>>2237194
I just honestly don't care the same way I don't care about children in Africa starving to death every single day.

>>2237309
/thread

>>2237446
>Also, we have this thread all the time.
What have we learned so far?

>>2237194
Human body is adapted to an omnivorous diet and meat is one of the most efficient methods of introducing protein into the body.

Animals are part of a cycle of hunter and prey, by nature they are a food source for something else or are the ones eating other animals. Therefore killing animals isnt bad.

Factory farming allows for cheap meat to get to people of all social strat ensuring that people recieve nutrients that classically people had a hard time getting (proteins and calcium). Good meat is made from animals both treated fairly and properly fed and good milk is made in higher quantities by animals not only treated fairly and fed properly but also lovingly cared for. So therefore factory farming as long as its not abused is not bad either.

it's tasty and I'm not a weepy pussy like you OP

>>2237333
This
A well processed deer can give you meat for a month. And if you eat the organs even longer.
Even though I can afford meat its more cost effective to kill and butcher game in many circumstances.

>>2237309
what the fuck is wrong with antinatalism

no one ever consents to being created, and when you create a human there is always a chance that they may have a poor life due to extreme birth defects, mental or physical illnesses, get killed in war (like the hundreds of children that die in Syria every single day), etc. Even worse than that though is that if they are miserable with the life that was forced upon them they don't even have the option of ending it without causing even greater suffering to their family and friends.

>>2237313
No you can't faggot. You're just some child who lives in the suburbs and has never actually met a hunter.

>>2237649
Have you met a full time hunter, who hunts his food for >50% of the time?

>>2237194

1. Humans have been eating meat as part of their nutritional diet as long as there have been humans.

2. I see nothing wrong with it personally.

Better question is how vegans can justify their own lives. It's impossible to live without killing, endangering, or displacing living creatures.

Can't eat ANYTHING, because insects and other creatures died in the field where it was grown.

Can't drive anywhere, because small animals might get run over and bugs get splattered.

Can't walk anywhere with all the innocent insects underfoot.

Can't use ANY product made by someone else, because they definitely killed and displaced living creatures to build their facilities and distribute their product and so on.

Can't be part of any recognized nation, as they all condone these heinous problems.

Can't even break the ground with a spade to plant your own vegetables or start the foundation of a sterile hydroponic lab to seal yourself in, because you might chop an earthworm in half and crush a burrowing insect.

Meat eaters don't have a morality problem, because they don't believe it's wrong. Vegans are blatantly immoral people because they know they live at the expense of living creatures and they do it anyway.

>>2237647
Life is life out not opt in, deal with it you whiney teenaged faggot, just because you're too much of a coward to end it doesn't mean it's unethical for other people to bring life into this world.

>>2237700
>I see nothing wrong with it personally.
Its unsustainable for the growth of population

So much resource is spent on animal farming. And people eat so much animal everyday, its truly waste of resource. That box of chicken nuggets? Yeah, you just ate 4-5 chickens.

>>2237647
>rejecting Logos

ho hum, I'm really not going to cast pearls before swine. It's just not worth my time.

>>2237654
Even if I said yes, would you believe me and what would it prove.

>>2237720
Nice ad hominem insults, but I never said I was suicidal or had a poor quality of life, I've just noticed it in many other people because my job (paramedicine) requires me to regularly interact with people who have mental illnesses and are suicidally depressed, children with such extreme birth defects they can hardly even be said to be alive, people with medical conditions that have rendered them little more than shit and piss factories, etc. I've seen so much human suffering that I really can't justify bringing life into the world anymore when there's a chance they might end up like that.

Insults are not a counter argument btw, all you said was its not unethical but gave absolutely no reason.

>>2237738
Eugenics and genetic counseling for all couples. Make it a requirement.


Das racist tho :^)

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Too many animals are consumed in the US.

In an average American lifetime they will eat 2000 chickens, 66 turkey, 28 pigs, 10 cows, 6 ducks, 3700 finfish, 10,000 shellfish

Or roughly 16,000 animals die to sustain 1 American.

>>2237741
or people could just make the moral decision not to have kids

>>2237775
>morals
>existing

>>2237772
Americans are too fat, it can't be helped.

>>2237781
without morals how are we any better than animals?

>>2237313
You need to give a source for that, and besides,I never said they did.

>>2237797
We are no better than animals though.

>>2237804
>WE

>>2237722

First, that is a sideways response to my opinion. I don't care any more about min-maxing food production than I care about the morality of meat consumption.

Two, humanity's population hardly needs to grow.

Three, humanity has sustained it just fine. Starvation scenarios tend to come down to human folly and distribution issues rather than raw production.

Four, humanity "wastes" resources on... Jesus, everything. The electronic device you're using right now caused the waste of massive amounts of resources without contributing effectively to the growth of human population. So what? You like using it, right?

Five, since when has humanity ever been the most efficient species, and why should we become it at the expense of all the "wasteful" things we enjoy when we have no need to?

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>>2237797
>awkshully overcoming our primitive biological urges is the ultimate triumph of the human Spirit. In fact, mid 20th century post structuralists claim...

>>2237797

A vegan's moral endgame demands the end of humanity.

Well if I don't eat free-range, grass-fed animals, I have to support the agricultural industry that every day murders millions of insects with poisonous gas, not to mention all the forests that it cuts down to grow all that soy. Vegans are the hitlers of the insect world.

>>2237823
Meat eating endgame moralless demands full cannabalization and destruction of human species as well as every other species in the universe.

>humans colonize mars
>there are no meats
>cannibalization ensues
Why are meat eaters so dum?

>>2237844

No, meat-eating endgame requires eating a burger for lunch. You might have noticed that modern meat eaters haven't been driving cows, chickens, and pigs to extinction, either.

Try again.

>>2237823
sounds like a good thing to me, consciousness was a mistake

>>2237877
I agree, can I eat meat until humanity goes extinct though?

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>>2237877
I wonder who could possibly be behind this post.

>>2237862
Do you know what end game means?

Vegan end game = human extinction because not eating meat = death.

Meat eating end game = extinction of every living being in the universe, including themselves because you have to eat or face vegan end game.

>>2237890
>not eating meat = death
excuse me?

>>2237890
Vegan end game is endless orgasm from being so much more virtuous than soulless meat eaters.
I just want to eat meat.

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>>2237194
>How do you justify eating meat?
It'll lead to human extinction when the antibiotics are overused on farm animals and bacterias evolve so nothing can kill them.

Is veganism a spook?

>justification

It's tasty.

Vegans btfo

>>2237915
Go eat your poo.

>>2237262
I have never known a vegan who was not also a pathological liar.

>>2237935
Aren't all meat eaters psychopathic murderers?

>>2237890

Oh brother...

Let me break it down Barney-style for you:

1. Moral vegans believe that moral, higher-reasoning creatures should abhor anything that causes the suffering, death, or even use of living creatures.

2. Carnivorous and omnivorous creatures like wolves are exempt from this because they are incapable of higher reasoning. In essence, only human are subject to vegan morality.

3. As partially detailed in >>2237700, it is impossible for a human being to live without causing untold death, displacement, and suffering for other creatures.

4. The only moral course for humans, therefore, is to not exist.

If you take as a given that humanity shouldn't wipe itself out for the greater good, then moral veganism is a logical fallacy. It's not my fault if you get mad that your life is a lie.

For meat-eating people, there is no philosophical quandary. They just eat meat. That's it.

I don't expect you to concede my point here, as that would be an adult thing for you to do and that doesn't track with your behavior. But after you close this tab, give it a good think, eh?

>>2237947
Meat eaters have no morals, therefore they eat everyone and any animal/species if it feeds them.

I don't understand why you're arguing over these facts.

>>2237194
They're meat machines, I don't give a fuck about them.

>>2237849
Poor bait.

>>2237931
Only scat fetishists do that, anon.
Not trying to kinkshame you, but stop that here.

>>2237940
>>2237996
Humans evolved to be obligate omnivores, it is only thanks to modern society and technology that we can get a wide enough selection of vegetable foods that vegetarianism and even veganism is possible without severe adverse nutritional effects.

>>2237212
Spotted the child.

>>2237772
>only 2000 chickens
Confirmed not making it

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>>2237996
>"facts"

That word....

>>2238043
For the most part of human history, vegetarianism was the norm. Animal meat was rarely eaten because of how expensive it was to raise animals and buy animals.

>>2238090
>vegetarianism was the norm. Animal meat was rarely eaten

You just contradicted yourself in two sentences in the same post.

Coming from peasant farmer stock, I know very well how anyone with even a tiny patch of land kept rabbits, chickens, etc. Even people in South America, having no other suitable meat animals , bred guinea pigs for food, and people in Africa eat insects rather than go without any form of meat at all. You literally have no idea what you're talking about.

A diet that is majority vegetable mass =/= vegetarianism.

>>2238090
Often in my country people would keep chicken and rabbits to eat.

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Reminder.

>>2237194
Animals and plants are both life, animals are all parasites since we cannot sap energy from the sun, we must get it from other living things. Since there are no humans who can photosynthesize, all eating is immoral, and if morality is that fucking impractical then I'll abandon it.

>>2237947
>higher-reasoning creatures should abhor anything that causes the suffering, death, or even use of living creatures.
Plants are living organisms

>>2238154
"As far as I know no reputable study has ever shown that plants can "feel pain". They lack the nervous system and brain necessary for this to happen. A plant can respond to stimuli, for example by turning towards the light or closing over a fly, but that is not the same thing."

>>2238187
What about when plants release alarm pheremones when in danger or when being eaten?

>>2237947
>Moral vegans believe that moral, higher-reasoning creatures should abhor anything that causes the suffering, death, or even use of living creatures.
morality comes from emotions, not not reasoning. no one adhere's to a single moral framework and few thoroughly research and develop these systems.

>Carnivorous and omnivorous creatures like wolves are exempt from this because they are incapable of higher reasoning
Do you think that wolves are incapable of knowing that non-wolves feel pain?

We all get eaten by something, someday.

>>2237931
Eating poo is better than being vegan tbqhwyf

>>2238205
It must hate that, right?

It's very easy to become anthropocentric and say 'Oh, it hurts!' But what I see is—and there's nothing spiritual about this at all—the unity of biology. All of biology uses electricity—what are called depolarizations. This is an ancient biological mechanism. Our nerves do that.

>>2237194
>How do you justify eating meat?

Healthy, nutritious and just delicious.

> Do you consider hunting morally acceptable

Yes, as long as the species aren't prone to extinction.

>Factory farming

Morally acceptable, too. Feeding a modern society without mass production of meat is impossible. Nevertheless, those "meat factories" must be heavily regulated and surveilled. Animals being slaughtered there must be well-fed and well-treated until the moment their throats are cut.

>>2238205
What happens when plants evolve to emit toxin that kills anyone eating it.


Happening time

Meat is delicious.

>>2237262
It's not a myth.

>>2238329
Bruh you should read up on the plants that when being eaten by caterpillars release a pheremone that attracts parasitic wasps to lay eggs in the caterpillars.

>>2238377
Honey bees should have no chance at all against the ferocious Japanese hornet - the predators are an inch long, and watching the two battle is like watching infantry racing hopelessly towards a tank.

But the tiny creatures can actually triumph - by swarming over their foes in such numbers that hornets are 'cooked' inside a ball of bees.

>>2237262
Let the deer breed unchecked, and they fuck up whole ecosystems.

Granted, there maybe other solutions:
https://i.4cdn.org/wsg/1484202599789.webm

I justify it because ethical consumption is impossible, especially if you live in an industrialized country. I'd care about all the impoverished masses that make my clothes and electronics before I care about the cattle and poultry that make my food.

"We have ascertained beyond doubt that God is much rather displeased with the sacrifices you offer, the time of sacrifices having now passed away. And because you will not admit that the time for offering victims is past, therefore the Temple will be destroyed, and the abomination of desolation shall stand in the Holy Place." The Clementine Recognitions, chapters liii to lxxi.

Chapter XXII, 6 of the Clementine Homilies says "They followed the Apostles in their custom of daily lustrations. They refused to partake of flesh or wine, taking as their pattern, St. Peter, whose food was bread, olives, and herbs...."

>>2238420
Caine the vegetarian would like a word with you about his brother Abel.

>>2238439
"When you are attacking a town and the war drags on, you must not cut down the trees with your axes. You may eat the fruit, but do not cut down the trees. Are the trees your enemies, that you should attack them?" (Deuteronomy 20:19)

>>2238090

Yeah the steppe nomads actually moved gardens around in giant wooden carts because herding sheep and yaks was just too expensive.

I get the "we couldn't survive without it"-argument but that is no problem anymore, now we can. With all the problems regarding endangering species and global warming shouldn't we somedays be able to not interfere with the wildlife and possibly be completely independend? Isn't that what humanitarians strife for?

>>2238579

But we can't do that unless we drastically reduce the amount of humans on the planet, cutting meat from our diets isn't going to do shit. Enormous forests in South America have been cut down or simply burnt to make space for soy farms to feed some fat, balding frogs on the other side of the planet so they can feel like they're saving Earth when they're still causing as much damage.

>>2237194
Speaking from the middle ground here

>ancient Roman gladiators were given a diet made exclusively out of grains and they specifically eschewed meat. In more recent times prize fighters were given a steak the night before a big fight: now they're given a big plate of spaghetti. No dietician ever told anyone that they need to cut the whole grains and vegetables out of their diet and incorporate more meat and cheeses.

>Meat is an excellent source of protein. It's also high in fat and cholesterol and in this age of abundance there are plenty of means of introducing more protein into one's diet while avoiding the side effects of a meat-heavy diet. This can be mitigated by switching to leaner meat but generally speaking the tastier something is, the fattier and less good for you that it is.

>Hunters play a valuable role in maintaining their local ecosystems and their way of life deserves to be protected. Hunters are natural allies of conservationists but they drive them away with their constant moralizing.

>For modern hunter-gatherers their diet is something like only 10 to 20% meat, and the rest is harvested wild grains. A man might go out hunting all week and only catch a single small pig whose meat gets put in a stew and shared with the tribe. Modern HGers are even more efficient hunters than primitive ones so the split in prehistoric times would have been even more stark, and they would have been even more dependent on wild grains.

>Factory farms deal with animals specifically bread to make food for humans. With that being said, humans have hated the thought of animals suffering since ancient times, it's just in modern times that they've become aware of just how big the problem is

>If you overharvest the oceans there will be no more edible fish for future generations. Period.

>People who say meat is always evil is a granola-chomping hippy and anyone who says it's always good is a Burger-King smashing fattie

>>2237194
Because even though I will contribute nothing of significance to society (labor does not count), I need to operate at my best and its worth causing lots of suffering.

If we collectively stop eating meat, do we just kill all the chickens and cows? They've been selectively bred for human consumption for so long they wouldn't survive in the wild, and if they did, they'd destroy the ecosystem

>>2237194
I just don't care, I like meat, thus I will eat it. I am not ignorant of the plight, I just simply don't care, as I care about my self interest more.

Tl;dr fuck'em I like how they taste.

>>2237720
He makes valid points. Telling people who get unlucky to kts is kinda mean. You sound like an angry ugly turd.

>>2237639
>fairly
1. Not allowed to live a natural life
2. Killed
3. Eaten by fat retards at McDonald's

So fair!

>>2237947
>For meat-eating people, there is no philosophical quandary. They just eat meat. That's it.
Speciesism to a dramatic extent is hypocrisy.

>>2238627
If livestock's were reduced by 10% and the land is repurposed for vegetables the world hunger would end.

>>2238420
>>2238447
Religion is the refuge of the scoundrel, especially since the subject at hand was not religion. If you are a Christian, vegan-fag, remember:

Acts 10:9-16:
"9 The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance 11 and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 13 And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.”

14 But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.”

15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.” 16 This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again."

>>2238724
>Speciesism
>hypocrisy.
Pick one and only one.

>>2238753
[citation needed]
Sounds like BS. Current world food is sufficient to feed MORE humans than currently exist. What is missing is the will to share food out evenly among humans in times of drought or other crises.

>>2238692
>So fair!

Feel free to kill your own meat then, or volunteer to be the meat.

And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean. (Acts 10:28)

It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles. (Romans 14:21)

>>2237194

Why the fuck would I have to justify eating meat?

How about you justify telling me what I can and cannot eat?

>>2238800
>here, obey this book I spend all my time mocking except when it justifies my unnatural life-choice

>>2238778

Yeah. Kosher is over. And Gentiles are saved.

Not sure if you knew that was what you were quoting.

>>2238800
>It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles. (Romans 14:21)

This is because it takes your weak nature into account, not because eating meat (especially meat sacrificed to idols, which is the subject you are taking out of context) is wrong.

Would you offer an alcoholic a drink?

Would you offer a junkie smack?

If not, you are doing it out of love, not moral superiority.

>>2238814
Did you miss the (FAR more important) first two sentences? Here, let me remind you:
>"Religion is the refuge of the scoundrel, especially since the subject at hand was not religion. If you are a Christian, vegan-fag, remember:"

We're not talking religion, you brought it up in a pathetic attempt to justify your lifestyle fetishism by it.

>>2238813
>"So traditionally Muslims were semi-vegetarians. The Prophet was, I mean, technically, the Prophet (SAWS) was in that category. He was not a meat-eater. Most of his meals did not have meat in them. And the proof of that is clearly in the Muwatta—when Sayyidina Umar says, ‘Beware of meat, because it has an addiction like the addiction of wine.’ And the other hadith in the Muwatta—there is a chapter called ‘Bab al-Laham,’ the chapter of laham, the chapter of meat. Both are from Sayyidina Umar. And Umar, during his khilafa, prohibited people from eating meat two days in a row. He only allowed them to eat [it] every other day. And the khalifa has that right to do that."
http://www.animalsinislam.com/halal-living/fatwas/

>>2238844
>quoting islam

Considering it's creator literally had sex with a nine year old in his FIFTIES, that is NOT a direction you want to go in for advice.

I'm an omnivore.
Hunting and factory farming are both acceptable if you know what you're doing and aren't an autistic sociopath.

>>2238844
Nothing to forbid eating meat in the Qu'ran or in the Hadith. Moderation is recommended, and white meat from birds is said to be healthier than red, but it is not forbidden.

O you People! Eat of what is on earth, Halal and pure, and do not follow the footsteps of the Satan; Indeed for he is to you an open enemy (2:168)

O you who believe! Eat of the good things that We have provided for you and be grateful to Allah, if it is Him that you worship (2:172)

Forbidden to you are Maytatah (carrion or dead animal, animal not slaughtered with Tasmiyah i.e. reciting 'Bismillahi Allahu Akbar'), flowing blood, the flesh of swine, and that slaughter on which was invoked name other than Allah, as well as the (animal) killed by strangulation or beaten to death with violent blow or falling (from a height) to its death or gored to death (through fighting) or by falling to a predator (and about to be consumed -- unless you are able to slaughter before it dies)…. (5:3) [see also (16:115)]

>>2238844

>Here, another book I will selectively use to justify my unnatural life-choices to you.

Bet you're the kind who cheers when the US bombs places like Syria.

>>2238090
>For the most part of human history, vegetarianism was the norm.
No.
Stop saying this.
For the most part of human history, eating meat was the norm. Like, every single time we find human bones, there are ALWAYS chopped animals bones nearby.
For the most of primate history "we" were herbivorous.
Homo habilis became the first omnivorous 10 million years ago.

>>2238825

That sentence is meaningless. I gave it all the consideration it rated.

>>2238859
O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.

O you who have believed, whoever of you should revert from his religion - Allah will bring forth [in place of them] a people He will love and who will love Him [who are] humble toward the believers, powerful against the disbelievers; they strive in the cause of Allah and do not fear the blame of a critic. That is the favor of Allah ; He bestows it upon whom He wills. And Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing.

>>2238909
You brought up two separate religions in an attempt to justify veganism/vegetarianism as a moral duty when your argument was getting BTFO. You have no leg to stand on.

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>>2238910
You really don't want to start playing that game, anon.....

Quran (2:191-193) - "Kíll them wherever you find them, Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than kílling...
Quran (3:151) - "Soon we shall cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers"
Quran (4:95) says Muslims who "fight and strive in the case of allah" are superior to peaceful muslims according to Allah.
Quran (8:39) - "Fight with them until there is no more fitna (disbelief) and until the only religion for Allah"
Quran (8:67) - "A Prophet should not have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter"
Quran (8:67) - "A Prophet should have no prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."
Quran (9:5) - "When sacred months passed, slay the idolaters everywhere, take them captive and besiege them..."
Quran (9:5) - "When sacred months passed, slay the idolaters everywhere, take them captive and besiege them..."
Quran (9:14) - "Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them"
Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who do not believe in Allah"
Quran (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers be unyielding to them"
Quran (17:16) - "And when We wish to destroy a town... We destroy it with utter destruction."
Quran (61:9): "Mohammed was sent to guide Islam victorious over all religions even though the infidels may resist. Fight them."
Muslim (19:4321-4323) - Muhammad does not care about children being slaughtered because they where "among the disbelievers"
Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us" The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.
Bukhari (52:73) - "Allah's Apostle said, 'Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords"
Bukhari (8:387) - "Fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah"

>>2238949
Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Mark 7:7)

I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? (Luke 12:49)

Pickthall: And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We supported him with the Holy spirit. Is it ever so, that, when there cometh unto you a messenger (from Allah) with that which ye yourselves desire not, ye grow arrogant, and some ye disbelieve and some ye slay?

>>2237947
>1. Moral vegans believe that moral, higher-reasoning creatures should abhor anything that causes the suffering, death, or even use of living creatures.
You cause the suffering and death of living creatures every day. Someone had to destroy something's habitat to build your house. Millions of rodents and insects are killed in the production of your "moral" vegan food. Certainly some of the people who made the PC you're viewing 4chan with were meat eaters, and your purchase has subsidized their meat-eating.

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>>2238983
>t. butthurt Muslim fag now trying to say his religion justifies.... some dumb rubbish about killing everyone.

Get back to the point where you were failing to argue a non-religious justification for veganism.

>>2238983

Men wrote books, yes, even the Koran.

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>>2237334
>meat causes heart diseases
Do you know what what greatly increases your risk of getting a disease and or cancer?

Living.

>>2238993
They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. (John 16:2)

>>2237654
How is that relevant to the bullshit stat about nobody hunting for meat?
Where you get your meat =/= What you do with your hunted meat

>>2237772
Your point?

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>>2238724
>Speciesism

>>2239010
Thank you for admitting you lost the argument on every level.

> Vegans BTFO!

And for that matter, thanks for proving religion is truly an opinion held by idiots and fools.

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>>2238988
>Millions of rodents and insects are killed in the production of your "moral" vegan food.
Don't be silly Anon, doesn't are the cute animals like cows and bunnies :3!

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The same way people justify not eating meat

>>2239034
Barmaid: “Would you like some wine?” Descartes: “I think not.”
Then he vanishes.
—Anonymous joke

>Our brain is a small lump of organic molecules. It contains some hundred billion neurons, each more complex than a galaxy. They are connected in over a million billion ways. By what incredible hocus-pocus does this tangle of twisted filaments become aware of itself as a living thing, capable of of love and hate, of writing novels and symphonies, feeling pleasure and pain, with a will free to do good and evil?

>>2239070
Damn...

>>2239075
>aware of itself
Only for a very few, and even then, intermittently.
4chan, and /int/ particularly, should suffice as proof of that.

>>2239084
>David Chalmers, an Australian philosopher, has called the problem of explaining consciousness the “hard problem”. The easy problem is under- standing unconscious behavior, such as breathing, digestion, walking, perceiving, and a thousand other things. Grappling with the hard problem has become one of the hottest topics facing philoso- phers, psychologists, and neuroscientists. Accord- ing to philosopher John Searle, reviewing Nicholas Humphrey’s Red: A Study of Consciousness (New York Review of Books, November 2005), Amazon lists 3,865 books on consciousness. The most recent, published this year by Basic, is Douglas Hofstadter’s I Am a Strange Loop.

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>>2239090
>Australian philosopher,

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>>2239090
>Australian philosopher

I just can't make the mental leap to believe that animals are conscious and experience qualia. Like seriously, look at the way a dog or a cow behaves and then try and imagine actually "being" them. You just can't.

i know that's not really an argument but by the same token I've never really heard a convincing argument that animals do perceive qualia, and are thus capable of suffering. It just seems to be assumed by a lot of people.

>>2239202
Can you make the leap for other people?

What about babies?

>>2238934

This is not the (You) you're looking for.

>>2239202
Have you ever owned a pet or spent more than 5 minutes around an animal?

>>2238614
>Hunters are natural allies of conservationists but they drive them away with their constant moralizing.
uw0tm8

I'm pretty sure the average forester, which I assume is what you mean by "conservationist", is well aware of the necessity of hunters.

>>2239228
Gonna guess "no".

>>2238612
Actually, IIRC, most soy is used to feed animals to make meat, so your argument actually works against eating meat.

>>2237194
>How do you justify eating meat?
I don't believe that non-human animals are any more ethically significant than plants.

>>2239247
How do you justify who is ethically significant?

>>2237194
Our species can't get certain essential amino acids from plants alone. The only viable source is meat. Unlike cows and other animals, who are able to grow and sustain bodies of a ton out of grass.

Hunting is immoral but so is nature. He who programmed life is at fault here.

The only way out of having to eat meat is to re-engineer our DNA, or achieve artificial meat.

>& Humanities

History knows no vegan, only ovo-lacto vege at best.

>>2237333
>The sources over at field&stream say in 2013 35% of hunters hunt for meat, 31% for sport and recreation
Not him but I'm curious: what do the other 34% hunt for?

>>2239238

It's used for both, which is the point I'm making. It doesn't matter if you eat the cow or the cow's food, a forest is still going to be cut down. Cattle can at least be grown in areas that are poor for agriculture but with enough wild plants to herd some animals around, though I'm sure plenty of forests were cut down to breed cows as those places alone won't supply our current world population. There is no way to reduce our impact on the world without actually reducing how many of us are here.

>>2239256
>Our species can't get certain essential amino acids from plants alone.
I think this has been untrue for several decades now.

>Hunting is immoral but so is nature.
In a society, humans go far beyond what is natural all the time. ´Stopping to eat meat wouldn't be that much of a change when humans create far more unnatural institutions such as laws.

>or achieve artificial meat.
2013, scientists from the Netherlands were able to make a patty of artificial meat for only 400.000€, IIRC. The texture was indistinguishable from real meat.
Last year, they refined the methods to make such a patty cost only in the tens of thousands.

Note that these are prototypes. If you know anything about manufacturing, you know that costs will dramatically decrease when those patties are mass-produced instead.
In a few years, such a patty will only cost marginally more, at some point probably even less than a real meat patty.

When we're nearing price parity, people will have to face that they're creating a lot of avoidable suffering. How high will their price tag for moral conduct be, I wonder...?

>>2239305
both?

there's a spectrum when you say 'hunting for meat' too. do you eat the whole animal, offal and all? do you use every scrap of skin and bone like the natives did? some people are very strict and some people only take the choice cuts and leave the carcass to rot. Even if they do, that's still "hunting for meat".

>>2239314
>It's used for both, which is the point I'm making. It doesn't matter if you eat the cow or the cow's food, a forest is still going to be cut down.
It takes more energy to create cow meat from cows eating soy than simply creating soy.

>>2239206
Other people mostly, but it starts to get fuzzy when you consider certain cases like extremely mentally impaired people or things like that.

I can't really imagine being a newborn baby. I mean I was one once, and I don't remember a thing about it. Maybe I did have a conscious experience of my own birth and I've simply forgotten it, but intuitively that doesn't seem very likely to me.
>>2239228
yes

>>2239340
>implying humans are moral

Stop forcing this meme. The suffering boner will make more people eat REAL meat to spite you. Not because of logic, but because they enjoy watching you cry about it. The faggot Bourdain is already making videos condemning 'fake meat' because of truisms and muh nature, you retards make it worse every time you inspire the sadistic populace to more.

>>2237797
We aren't better animals, we ARE animals. We're one of the best, if our success is anything to go by, and morals no doubt contributed to our success. However, if anyone's morals should convince them to not reproduce, and they follow that line of thought, they are a biological failure, as they are an organism that proved unable to continue its genetic line.

I'm just throwing around biology bullshit though, you can abstain from having kids if you want. You shouldn't try to push the idea onto others though. If somebody comes to that conclusion, they should do it on their own, and not be talked into it by another.

>>2239358
The sadists are few and far between. The impact on them is negligible, when compared to the impact on the many average persons.

>The day before, I’d traveled to her village in northern Okinawa with two longevity experts, gerontologist Craig Willcox, who along with his brother Bradley wrote the New York Times best seller The Okinawa Diet Plan, and Greg Plotnikoff, a U.S.-trained physician and authority on integrative medicine. We spent the day interviewing Shinzato about her diet, observing her lifestyle, and watching her prepare a traditional Okinawan meal. In the cool hours of the day, she worked in her gardens. At lunch, she mixed homemade miso into a saucepan of water. She spooned in fresh carrots, radishes, shiitake mushrooms, and tofu, and let it heat. Meanwhile, she moved up and down the kitchen wiping clean the counters, sink, and even the window. When it was ready she poured her warmed soup into a bowl, gazed at it for a few moments, and murmured, “Hara hachi bu.” This Confucian adage, intoned like a prayer before every meal, reminded her to stop eating when she was 80 percent full.

>After lunch, she read comic books or watched a baseball game on television and napped. Neighbors stopped by every afternoon, and a couple of days a week her moai — four women who, together with Shinzato, had at a young age committed to one another for life — stopped by for mugwort tea and conversation. Whenever things had gotten rough in Shinzato’s life, when she’d run short of cash or when her husband had died 46 years ago, she’d counted on her moai and the Okinawan sense of social obligation — yuimaru — to support her. Her friends had relied on a lifetime of Shinzato’s support in return.

>>2239370
>implying cultural sadism isn't real and widespread

>many average persons
>4chan

Stopped taking you seriously there, 7/10!

>>2239365
>if our success is anything

wrong

cyanobacteria are the 'most successful' form of life by any objective measure and of the metazoa parasites are the most abundant, far from man.

only subjective qualities like art, music, philosophy, and learning, and scientism allow man to claim superiority

there is no argument you can give me that man is superior that doesn't rely on a reductionist argument to our technology or our own culture

>>2237614
That vegans are retards, and meat is delicious, yet resource intensive, so we should probably eat less of it.

>>2239217
And whatever (You) have been told, THAT is not an argument.

>>2239238
>most soy is used to feed animals
Only in the US, because apparently you can't bear to let cattle, etc, roam free and eat grass because it takes longer to fatten up an animal.

Feeding animals soy is an agribusiness practice to speed up profit, not an inherent necessity.

>>2239255
Define ethnic significance without resorting to religion or religion-derived notions.

While you're at it, under the same framework, define why humans should be bound by different rules to any other animal.

>>2237309
this, they are different therefore they should go fuck offf

>>2239314
>There is no way to reduce our impact on the world without actually reducing how many of us are here.
Good news then - human population will decrease starting in around 2050 or so. The long lifespan of humans confuses the picture.

>>2239350
>It takes more energy to create cow meat from cows eating soy than simply creating soy.
Irrelevant argument.

>>2239370
>sadists are few and far between
Oh you innocent summer child!

>>2239463
*ethical

I do not justify it, I merely eat it. It's the same with everything I consume.

>>2237194
>Do you consider hunting morally acceptable opposed to factory farming?
Yes.

Kill for Sustenance, War for Territory.

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_WHGV5bejk

>>2239459
No it's to make the Chinese grow rich and feminize the American male.

I went vegan for several reasons:

>Meat introduces unnecessary cholesterol and fat into your body

>The acidity of animal protein forces the human to take calcium phosphate out of our blood to process meat--phosphate neutralizes the acid and we pee out the calcium, hence the pervasiveness of osteoporosis

>Numerous studies have shown that animal products are unnecessary to live a healthy life. Dairy, specifically, has been linked to cancer.

Those are the health reasons. Ethically speaking, if you've seen even just a glimpse of what transpires on meat and dairy farms, it's hard to deny that animals are being enslaved and tortured:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RNFFRGz1Qs

This is the video that convinced me. Even if you don't care about the ethical reasons, you can't argue with the science:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es6U00LMmC4&t=3411s

>>2239869
>>2239510
Whenever I see someone post youtube videos as a source, I don't click on them or take the rest of the post seriously.

I hope you don't either, /his/.

>>2239479
Wow, so mature.

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>justify

>>2239921
>ridiculing the central act of all of philosophy
Stirner himself wasn't that dumb. Fuck off, Stirner-memers.

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i don't have to justify it because you are an insect to me

>>2237890
Except there isn't really a finite amount of meat. You can make more.

>>2239921
The very concept of spooks relies on certain things lacking justification.

>>2239035
Plenty of rabbits die too.

>>2239939
>>2240030
justify used within the context of OP's post clearly refers to a moral base. your attacks against my post are semantical. read a book, retards.

>>2240036
>one

>>2238988
also soil depletion, erosion, "organic" pesticide run off (Rotenone, pyrethrins) ending up in the rivers and aquifers that people draw water from which then leads to increased dementia rates in thirty years.

most third world countries rely on pastureland too shitty to grow crops on for their livestock like the sahel or mountainous regions of the middle east. Vegans would attempt to put such land under the plow or let it go fallow. They pretend as if we abolish our ranching for the sake of their moral crusade and their feelings and replace every single thing animal products are derived from (an enormous list), the excess grain we will supposedly generate will just teleport to fucking Africa!

It doesn't work like that.

Meadows can't form anymore naturally: all of the large grazers are extinct or severely diminished in range (bison etc) Mankind is the only species generating significant meadowland anymore! Without a ranching sector, meadowland will go extinct because there are no fucking grazers left and people will convert the land to other profitable uses - like, say, polluting industry or more cropland to generate runoff and aquifer depletion.

Vegans don't understand this. They don't understand we're too fucking powerful as a species and everything we do - or don't do - will have significant impact on the ecology around us due to sheer economies of scale.

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>>2237194
>How do you justify eating meat?
Venison chili is god tier.

>Do you consider hunting morally acceptable opposed to factory farming?
Yes. Pic related died in her tracks without getting sick or having a wolf chew her guts out. She was delicious.

>>2240083
>ithout a ranching sector, meadowland will go extinct because there are no fucking grazers left and people will convert the land to other profitable uses
Where I live, the meadows are grazed by milk- and wool-producing animals that aren't slaughtered.

> from which then leads to increased dementia rates in thirty years.
Makes me laugh to hear such generalized claims.

Also, [citation needed].

>>2240276
>the meadows are grazed by milk- and wool-producing animals that aren't slaughtered

Yes, a ranching sector.

>[citation needed]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19385059

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3114824/

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/parkinsons-disease-and-pesticides-whats-the-connection/

http://www.jbc.org/content/280/51/42026.full

http://www.jneurosci.org/content/23/34/10756

http://rotenone.fisheries.org/rotenone-use-in-fish-management-and-parkinsons-disease-another-look/

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0161813X14002174

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24503016

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/127/3/e699?sso=1&sso_redirect_count=1&nfstatus=401&nftoken=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000&nfstatusdescription=ERROR%3a+No+local+token

Can you look at me with a straight face and tell me this shit is good as runoff in the water supply? Because they're ~all~ organic! Pyrethrins are derived from a flower!

>>2237194
I don't eat meat.

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Humans should eat less meat and waste less food.

That being said. Vegans are scum of the earth.

>>2240327
I agree with both of these.

>>2237194
>Expecting edgy white suburban males who've had everything handed to them their entire lives to care about morals
They'll only care when the apocalypse reaches their parents' bank accounts.

>>2237194
I recently stopped eating meat because I feel grossed out by looking at dead flesh desu. Developing compassion is a nice side effect but realistically it is only a matter of degree to which we harm animals - there will always be a vegan stricter than you and even farming crops will inevitably harm small animals in the process. I think for the most part meat eaters react harshly to vegetarians because people just don't like having their ethics questioned, which is understandable, even if I feel it discourages critical reflection.

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>>2237194
I don't buy into morals. In a nutshell, they are comfort for the ignorant, a safeguard for society from what people believe to be dangerous behavior.

I like meat. I do not care for your religious moral blathering.

>>2239876
>if a YouTube video says 2+2=4 it must be wrong because le medium is accessible to plebs xD

>>2239202
>argument from incredulity

Why would they even have sensory organs and frontal lobes if they had no consciousness? They clearly react to pain. Do you think hominins just acquired consciousness in a single mental leap? It's obviously a matter of degree.

Personally, if you wouldn't be disturbed by coming home to your kid torturing puppies, you are a freak and should never be allowed any kind of authority in society.

If animals don't want to be eaten they should stop being so damn tasty.

>>2238402
DEER BTFO

>>2237194
I am a vegan by the fact I don't normally eat store bought animal products. If I do I want to be the one who kills and butchers it otherwise I think it is hypocritical. Am I wrong for doing this or hypocritical myself? It doesn't feel right to not be the person who hunted and kill your own food.

>>2240939

don't cut yourself on that edge

Easiest way to get whole proteins.

>>2241476
It's a lot easier to mix low-fat quark with water, maybe add some fruits

>>2241481

Quark is still an animal product, and fruit has negligible amino acid content.

>>2241487
You're right but you can also eat vegan soy quark. You can add fruit for a tasty quick meal is what I actually meant.

>>2237194
>How do you justify eating meat?
It's yummy and makes me strong.
>Do you consider hunting morally acceptable opposed to factory farming?
Sure, but hunting reserves couldn't supply enough meat to meet current market demands.

I prefer milk from grassfed cows and free-range eggs, btw. Dunno where my meat comes from, but there is plenty of ranches in my country, I guess the animals do OK.

>>2240939
What is that? A dam?

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>>2241515

>vegan soy quark
>hard to find
>expensive
>pic related

Sure you COULD get all your aminos from eating a large range of food, but that's a lot of soy to get up to your recommended daily intake of protein.

>>2237194
I dont justify it, I just do

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>>2238692
>its onther "non inteligent creatures have rights" episode
Humans didn't rise to the dominent species status by the power of love and friendship dumbfuck, eating meat feels great, thats why I do it, I can, and I see no reson not to

>>2237772
Yeah, and 90% of thoose animals only owe their existance to the industry that supplies for demand.

>>2237797
we are the best animals

>>2237899
this