How can an entire nation particularly suck at war ? What

get off this board

>>2209431

Who won the 100 years war?

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>>2209431
OP I think you posted the wrong image.

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>>2209431
> What are they doing wrong?
They finally understood that Germans aren't even worth to fight against, as you can do nothing and still be on winning side against them.

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>>2209431
If that's how sucking at war looks like, I wish my country did

Unfortunatly, my country (Austria) actually sucked at war for most of history, even when we were the most relevant country un Europe

>>2209472
That's cherrypicking. I could also show a lot of french defeats

>>2209431
14 years ago, you'd have people congratulate you for that well thought out joke.

Now only anons who weren't born then and thus didn't have to listen to that same joke for the last 14 years will find it funny.

>>2209482
>That's cherrypicking

These are still wars (not some irrelevant battles) in which France fought big coalitions of major powers
Doubt you could find something as impressive for a lot of countries

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>>2209487
>the Iraq War was 14 years ago

Holy shit
Time flies by so fast

The space before the question mark makes me think op is an ignorant self hating frog. The ones like you should be replaced with Algerians.

>>2209501
Because aside from Spain thanks to its american gold and silver, no other nation on this planet had the manpower and resources or capabilities of war like the french. Thanks to their land, France.

>>2209515
14 years ago? Fuck.

>>2209580
Except potential manpower =/= fielded army
In most of those wars, France was outnumbered by the coalitions

>>2209472
lol what's up with France and coalitions? every fucking time

>>2209437
fpbp

>>2209876
Everyone hate them

>>2209580
>no other nation on this planet had the manpower and resources or capabilities of war like the french
how eurocentric of you

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>>2209431
Historically France was extremely strong and successful in military matters. This was due to thousands and thousands of Swiss soldiers the French hired as mercenaries.
This was literally a dream team of medieval and early modern Europe, the French did the talking and the Swiss did the walking.
However, after Napoleon cucked the Swiss, they refused to go war again for France.
That was a catastrophe for la Grande Nation, desperately they tried to build a French Foreign Legion, which kinda worked but was no real replacement for battle hardened Swiss regiments. And ever since France kept losing wars.

>>2209876
They were what the german want to be, the big bad bully of Europe and get away with it.

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Why did Spain and France never fight a bona fide land war?

>>2209515
Fucking hell!
Time flies quick on the net...

>>2209900
delusional mountain faggot 2/10

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>>2209900
I've seen a lot of misplaced self-importance on this board, but this one takes the cake
Swiss mercenaries stopped being relevant when they got BTFO at Marignano in 1515

After that they became a neutral cuckold country
France kept a tiny unit of hundreds of Swiss guards, but they were never used in battle and got massacred by peasants with sticks during the early days of the Revolution

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>>2209943
negrito, please, you know it is true, when France started hiring the swiss in the late 15th century France began to win, when the Swiss left in the mid 19th century France began to lose

>>2209943
>>2209957
jesus christ

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>>2209957

I've seen a lot of stupid uninformed posts on this board, but this one takes the cake! Are you even trying you stupid cunt?

They Swiss ended their politic of expansion after Marignano, but they kept on soldiering for centuries.
France had several hundred thousands of Swiss troops hired, at times the Swiss would represent the majority of French troops under arms, and they always where the senior regiments.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schweizer_Truppen_in_franz%C3%B6sischen_Diensten_f%C3%BCr_das_K%C3%B6nigshaus_der_Valois_1480%E2%80%931589
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schweizer_Truppen_in_franz%C3%B6sischen_Diensten_f%C3%BCr_das_K%C3%B6nigshaus_der_Bourbonen_1589%E2%80%931792
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schweizer_Truppen_in_franz%C3%B6sischen_Diensten_f%C3%BCr_das_K%C3%B6nigshaus_der_Bourbonen_1814%E2%80%931830


Same goes for most European Nations at the time
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schweizer_Truppen_in_fremden_Diensten

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>>2209900
>three manlets with halberds were the decisive force in France's military prestige

simply ebin

>>2209957
>France kept a tiny unit of hundreds of Swiss guards
>By 1740 more than 12,000 Swiss soldiers were in French service. During the remainder of the eighteenth century Swiss numbers varied according to need, reaching a peak of 20,000 during the Austrian War of Succession

You are not very smart, are you?

>>2209992
If the post claiming that France's success in war was entirely due to a few hundreds swiss mercenaries seems less retarded to you than these two, there's something wrong with you

It's like claiming Nazi Germany conquered Europe thank to Czech volunteers

>>2210016
Hmmm, that fits exactly the era during which France was bad at war (mid 18th century)
I'll blame the Swiss since before (17th century) and after that (Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars), France was the best in Europe

Apparently, hiring Swiss merceneries is what weakened France and made them lose the Seven Years War
Well, at least they learned the lesson and massacred them in 1792, which enabled them to conquer Europe in the following decade

>>2210019
France had several ten thousand Swiss at most times during the 16th and 17th century. Get your facts straight so other people don't have to facepalm when reading you.
https://books.google.ch/books?id=qUp-AwAAQBAJ&pg=PP12&lpg=PP12&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false

>>2210039
Could story
But Nazi Germany did have thousands of Czech volunteers during WW2
Guess German conquests were due to them only

>>2210199
Cool story bro, but the Swiss at times compromised the majority of the French Army, and at all times the better part. They where payed higher and where senior, even Swiss officers where senior to French ones. And that for 350 years+.

>>2210019
This was during the time mercenaries composed the better part of dinastic armies.

After national armies became a thing everything changed of course.

>>2210228
The French army in the 17th and 18th centuries always numbered in the hundreds thousands, so ten thousands of Swiss mercs never made the "major part" or even a significant one

>>2210306
Really depends on the the time frame, the Swiss where the majority for several wars, namely the French wars of religion, the Italian campaigns and so on, mostly because they monarchy trusted them more than French soldiers as they where not prone to mutiny or switching sides.
Also, the Swiss where exclusively combat troops, not auxiliary forces, they where the senior line regiments of France. Better equipment and pay came along with that, but also more combat duty.

In fact the Swiss developed an industry out being mercenaries, they had professional systems to enlist and train entire regiments and hire them away complete with officers and everything else. Many monarch unsure of their own subjects where more than happy to hire them. So for a long time the Swiss where the most prominent mercenary force in Europe, perfect for cabinet wars and the like.

>>2210019
no I said that because the swiss guy was obviously joking, and if he wasn't well it would be funnier
not saying that swiss soldiers were bad or anything but come on
>That was a catastrophe for la Grande Nation, desperately they tried to build a French Foreign Legion, which kinda worked but was no real replacement for battle hardened Swiss regiments

>>2210350
Fun Fact, the FFL started after the Swiss made foreign military services illegal.
>Swiss stop serving France 1830
>FFL is founded 1831

>>2210350
>"La Grande Nation"
>Found the kraut

>>2210376
>The French Foreign Legion was created by Louis Philippe, the King of the French, on 10 March 1831 from the foreign regiments of the Kingdom of France. Recruits included soldiers from the recently disbanded Swiss and German foreign regiments of the Bourbon monarchy.

>>2209431
I'm too lazy to do that for you but feel free to google the borders of France in, let's say the 11th century, and compare them to 16th century France, and tell me how they got all this land by "losing all wars".

I know they only teach you about WW1 and WW2 in American schools, but that doesn't mean there is no History that happened before George Washington.

>>2210382
Probably a German speaking Swiss
It's pretty hilarous how German speakers are the only ones to use this term

>>2209515
>14 years ago

Everything went by so fast, /his/ how do I slow it down.

>>2209431
If you kill your enemies they win, and France has killed a lot of their enemies

>>2210463
Uhm, you mean the Swiss have killed a lot of enemies for France?

>>2210438
smoking pot helps a great deal I heard.

Why do people pretend like France's WW2 performance was some footnote of history that doesn't reflect on their exemplary record of military excellence?

>>2209515
>the Iraq War was nearly over a decade ago
>there are people born after 9/11 who are having children right now

>>2209431
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sggJWiqdICA

>>2211300
Because taken together, ww2 was an anomaly. I mean hey, it's a country that's been around in some form for a few centuries. That's not to say its performance in 1940 isn't relevant, and their performance since hasn't been stellar.
But hey, that's one century among a few. the 21st isn't shaping up to be too terrible for France.

>>2211300

Don't forget that even though France was ill-prepared for the war, it went up against one of the world's best military forces of all time. The English certainly would not have held out without their navy and their luck of living on a fucking island, and the Soviets had an ally in General Winter and the endless steppe.

>>2211399
They literally got curbstomped into the dust and got occupied for half a decade, it was the most important military campaign France ever fought in since it decided the very existence of their country, and they blew it completely, if anything all of their stupid meme wars from centuries ago deserve to be disregarded

>>2211429
> it was the most important military campaign France ever fought in since it decided the very existence of their country
It was not and did not. Funny thing, despite losing in spectacular fashion, France apparently still exists.
>wars of the coalition
>meme wars
what are you doing on a history board

>>2209924
What reason would there have been to have one?

>>2211523
>It was not and did not. Funny thing, despite losing in spectacular fashion, France apparently still exists.

Gee I wonder why that might be the case, may have had something to do with the allies winning the war for them and kicking the germans out

Doesn't take anything away from their own pitiful attempt

>>2211552
Ah, so for the period between June 1940 and August 1944, France as a country did not exist. Is this correct?

Or do you mean to say that, at the conclusion of formal peace, one of the terms would be the annexation of all French territory?

>>2210005
While it sounds ridiculously stupid, it is not far from the truth. During the 16th & 17th century, they Swiss where the core of the Royal French army, they provided the line infantry regiments. During the times before the national states, mercenaries of some sort where the mainstay of every army, and the Swiss happened to be the most reputed and the ones most readily available. And the French kings where their best customers.

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>>2209441
England

>T.Lloyd

>>2212395
>"We"
Always amuses me when I see someone online obviously deriving his self esteem from military shenanigans that happened centuries before his birth.

Good old Lindybeige.

>>2211429
> it was the most important military campaign France ever fought in since it decided the very existence of their country,
Never heard of Revolutionnary war? You know the stuff that change Europe for ever?Or the HYW, where france begin it march to centralist state? Or WW1, THE war that decide the fate of france for the century?

>>2211300
Mostly as a response to the mainstream view in Post-2003 English speaking media that because France lost WW2, they have never won a war
Fighting an extreme by using the other one

>>2211429
>They literally got curbstomped into the dust and got occupied for half a decade

Your point?
In 1806, Prussia got BTFO in 19 days (twice fasted than France in WW2) and occupied for 7 years (twice longer than France in WW2) until Russia liberated them
Doesnt prevent people from worshipping Prussia's military history and calling them "Gods of War"
Performance in one war, regardless of how bad, isnt enough to judge a country that fought countless of them

>>2212423
Thats true, but Franco-Prussia was disaster, WW1 was a close call and needed lots of help, WW2 was a disaster, Indochina war was a disaster, Algeria war was a disaster and so a reputation forms.

>>2212428
prussiaboos are subhumans so you can disregard anything they do

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>>2211429
>it was the most important military campaign France ever fought in since it decided the very existence of their country, and they blew it completely, if anything all of their stupid meme wars from centuries ago deserve to be disregarded

You're a literal retard who doesnt understand history
How did you even end up on this board, normie scum?
Did you get lost on your way to /b/?

France fought countless wars in its history, many of which were decisive in whether they would continue to exist or not
WW2 wasn't as exceptional as you can believe, and the nazis didnt want to annex all Europe to Germany like in your hollywood movies
Even without the allies, what would've happened is that France would have falled under German domination for some times until another country rose to prominence
This shit happened to plenty of countries in history, and it didnt erase them from the map

If anything, the HYW and the Revolutionary Wars were the most decisive, fate changing wars France ever had to fight

>>2212395
I would really like strangling him to death with my bare hands.

>>2212431
>but Franco-Prussia was disaster
Counter balanced by the Crimean War and the Franco-Austrian War in the same era

>WW1 was a close call and needed lots of help
France was still the most important nation on the winning side
Don't get me started on the "needed allies to win" bullshit because if we go that way, Britain is the country that must be mocked for its military history

>WW2 was a disaster
Indeed

>Indochina war was a disaster
Yeah, a France that still hadnt recovered from WW2 lost against a nation that would BTFO the world superpower

>Algeria war was a disaster
It wasnt a military defeat

Btw, this list is really cherrypicked
Between these wars you mentioned, dozens of other wars were fought and won by France (I mentioned Crimea and Austrian War, but many more occured)
One can claim that they werent as relevant as WW1 and WW2 (which is true), but they definitly were comparable to the other three cited

>>2209876
As France is the true Hero of History, the scriptwriter likes to pit them against insurmountable odds for greater suspense and entertainement value.

>>2212456
>this list is really cherrypicked
Name one more important French war than the ones I picked between 1860 and today.

>>2209431
France was by far the most populous country in Europe until the mid 1800's, when other countries started catching up in terms of population, frogs couldn't sustain their zerg-rush tactics anymore

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>>2210390
>I'm too lazy to do that for you but feel free to google the borders of France in, let's say the 11th century, and compare them to 16th century France

>>2212470
Thats why they always fought alone against large scale coalitions of the next-following major countries of their time to make it more fair.

>>2212464
Not "more important", but "as important":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochinchina_Campaign (if Indochina is important by your standard, this one too)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Italian_War_of_Independence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonkin_Campaign

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Siamese_War (if Indochina is important by your standard, this one too)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Syrian_War (if Algeria is important by your standard, this one too)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rif_War (if Algeria is important by your standard, this one too)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Syrian_Revolt (if Algeria is important by your standard, this one too)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ifni_War (if Algeria is important by your standard, this one too)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suez_Crisis (military victory)

>>2212470
See >>2209607

>>2210390
>11th century, and compare them to 16th century France

Most of the land France gained during that period wasn't won by war either though

>>2209472
Austria was pretty good most of the time.

>>2209924
But they did, from the French intervention into the Thirty Years War until 1659 or so.

>>2212547
Eh, relied more on Spanish allies, and then spent much of the 18th century losing to the Prussians. Did well in the Thirty Years War I guess, holding Bohemia for almost 300 years afterwards, and it took the combined efforts of France, Denmark and Sweden to win.

>>2212564
They defeated the Turks many times, and under Eugene of Savoy they defeated the French a couple of times under Louis XIV. For Prussia, they were pretty good in the 7 years war, it wasn't as one sided as before. They also were the first to score a clear victory against Napoleon. After that, I agree, it was pretty bad. So Austria never had the best army in Europe, but it was a pretty good one most of the time.

>>2211419

>The English certainly would not have held out without their navy and their luck of living on a fucking island

Yeah how dare we build the largest navy in the world. Fuck us, right?

>>2212589
True, and commendable, but the English Channel saved your ass.

Even if the RN had disappeared, the RAF wouldve been enough to sink every german river barge trying to cross the channel

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>>2212471
How did the Germans get cucked of so much land?
Where they this bad at war before the 19th century?

>>2209924
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Spanish_War_(1635%E2%80%9359)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Years%27_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Pyrenees
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peninsular_War

>>2212442
You can't claim a win based on an arbitrary distinction between revolutionary/napoleonic wars.

>>2209924
They did, despite Spain losing all of them. Not fun. Even with Charles Quint (and the whole fucking Europe but France under them) they kept losing

>literally saved from Napi by Portuguese and Anglos
kek evritim

>>2212453
I'll lend you my gloves.

>>2212651
Maps like that of the HRE are pretty much disinformation. You cannot compare the collection of very independent states under an "Emperor" as anything like France or England. It pretty much only looks good as a picture.

>>2213210
You are retarded. You do know Spain won almost all the times un the italian wars, right ?

>>2209431
quite triggering the frogs

>>2213183
>arbitrary distinction

Nothing arbitrary, the Peace of Amiens ended all hostilities and is widely accepted as the end of the Revolutionary Wars

1871 was far more embarrassing than 1940 tbqhwyf

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>>2213250
Yeah and you also won some skirmishes in America where it didn't matter more.

>pic related
How do you feel about it ?

Salty cowards, one and all

And now they're losing the greatest war they will ever face against the muslim hordes

>>2213277
Not really
Losing in 9 months against an enemy that outnumbered is less embarassing than losing in a month against an enemy with equal numbers

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>>2213285
>And now they're losing the greatest war they will ever face against the muslim hordes

All of Western Europe is losing that war

I'm convinced /his/ is just a board full of French people, all of which are pretending to be from other nations. The amount of French dick sucking is unreal.

t.burger

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>>2213313
Then you've never browsed /int/
Shittons of people from various countries are francophile (for whatever reason I don't understand) and will defend France regardless of the topic.
Pic related

Of course, as an American it must surprize you as hating and despising France is a norm in your country (which is another thing I don't understand as they're the reason your country exists)

Shits weird
Countries that should hate France (Germany, Britain, Spain, Mexico, Vietnam...etc) love them but the one country that should love France (America) hates their guts

But I agree that /his/ should get flags
It would prevent retards like you (and many others) to make dumb assumptions about nationality each time someone says something good/bad about a country

>>2213312
>still posting this bait
>2017

>>2213343
>Shittons of people from various countries are francophile (for whatever reason I don't understand) and will defend France regardless of the topic.

Maybe people just react to the globalized French bashing in opposite excess? I mean. As a French, I don't see at all what you're talking about, i.e. Francophiles. I see a lot of French hating however. Thus when I speak about my country I tend to be very passionate about it. Also it's a very lovable country and folks. Easy to mess with for sure, but good folks.

ps:
>Countries that should hate France: Germany

Mate have you ever met a German ?
English don't like us, well that goes around. Spaniards don't love us, well they really can't: we saved their arses from Muslims and brought them Human Rights and a few good things. Our only misbehaves to Spain are being better than them (I'll get Spaniards mad for this but don't, I love you folks. Think you're great) and maybe, just a little tiny bit, Napi invading them while they were our allies.
But mate, Germans ? They hate us so fucking much kek. I've never met a German that did not hate the French. Well, their country is kinda built around French hate desu. But 200 years later you'd think they would have grown up. Nope. They still hate the shit out of us, with no reciprocity whatsoever.

Americans just can't tolerate losers. It's not in their culture. We lost a Battle they had eyes on, it will take time for them to forget. I'm confident we will show our greatness again though. Fucking hell I love my country.

>>2209431
>How can an entire nation particularly suck at war ? What are they doing wrong ?

The French don't like stupid fights. They prefer to eat, drink, fuck, walk around, ride their bikes, or play soccer with the kids. To each their own, I guess?

The Normans weren't French.

>>2213313
French dick is tasty.

>>2214075
Get out /pol/

>>2214075
Get out of France, angevin

>>2209876
Good guys are always facing many bad guys and end up winning because they're the good guys.

>>2213414
As an Anglo, I'm way more inspired by Napoleon and the French revolution than the vast majority of our own political figures. Ain't no butthurt here, at least not among the recent generations.

>>2214075
1066 ones definitly were

>>2210306
>The French army in the 17th and 18th centuries always numbered in the hundreds thousands
There was no standing French army until 1671, doofus. And from around 1519 onwards the Swiss did indeed supply the core of the "French" infantry. Even after that they where the most prominent military force in France until the Revolution.

>>2214543
>Even after that they where the most prominent military force in France until the Revolution.

Bullshit
You can leave already, Swiss man

>>2214553
They made up 20% of the French army by 1792. Whats your problem, dislike the Swiss or just know nothing about history?

>>2214553
>they where the most prominent military force in France
>20%

Can't into numbers?

>>2214615
Yes, I can, when you make up 20% of an army you are significant part. If you happen to be the senior line infantry regiments you make up the most prominent part.
Frenchfag in denial then?

>>2214640
>most prominent
>most prominent
>most prominent
MOST
PROMINENT

Yeah I'm external to your debate

>>2214640
What the fuck Swissbro, don't you have achievements of your own that you do not need to take credit for other's ? Like General Guisan's famous defence of international relations and valuables, being the direct cause of shortening WWII a great lot (like 2 weeks?)

>>2214667
What part is it exactly you don't understand?

>>2214679
Feel free to prove me wrong faggot. The Swiss WERE the royal French army for 200 years and had a special military relationship going on with France for 350 years.
This time try it with actual sources.

>>2214728
They were not in the army in either 1066 or 1326, when the French invaded England. The Swiss were deserting in Spain while the French were conquering the HRE, the Austria-Hungary and Russia. Protecting rich people in comfy homes, you literally mattered less in 2000 years of history than Lance Armstrong's left testicle in the last decade. Sleep well.

>>2214754
Ah, chauvinistic ad hominem when neither argument nor source are at hand. As said, try a source some time, maybe you learn something.

From the late 15th century to 1792 the Swiss where France's boots on the ground based on a highly sophisticated industry of mercenary services. Now thats a historic fact.

>>2214781
>15th century to 1792

Care to precise what part of my post happened in this time period? I'll reply tomorrow.

>>2209924
Italian wars and 30 years war has a lot of large scale Franco-Spanish battles.

>>2214801
That was the whole point, we've been talking about the Swiss in French services, then you moved the goalposts to Norman raids which have nothing to do with the subject at all. And thats that. You are a fucking idiot, sorry to say so, but thats how it is.

>>2214806
>Franco-Spanish battles
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ceresole
>out of 11-13k infantry on French side, 8k where Swiss mercs

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>>2210031
>Apparently, hiring Swiss merceneries is what weakened France and made them lose the Seven Years War

Correlation =/= causation.

It could be just as much the case that France was hiring mercenaries because they were weak, not that they were weak because they were hiring Swiss mercenaries.

>>2214917
After the military reforms of the Marquis de Louvois in 1671 the mercenary service lost attraction to most Swiss. The officer corps remained but ranks were filled with whatever was available, including every sort of foreigners and vagabonds. So apparently the quality of Swiss regiments went down the drench in the 18th century, safe for the guard units.

>>2209431
too much wine probably

>>2214754
Just out of interest, what are you actually trying to "proof"?

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>>2214917
>It could be just as much the case that France was hiring mercenaries because they were weak, not that they were weak because they were hiring Swiss mercenaries.

Have you read the rest of the post?
Here's what happened after France got rid of the Swiss
So I'd say "France was weak because it hired Swiss" makes more sense than "France hired Swiss because it was weak"

>>2214816
>Historically France was extremely strong and successful in military matters. This was due to thousands and thousands of Swiss soldiers the French hired as mercenaries.
>This was literally a dream team of medieval and early modern Europe, the French did the talking and the Swiss did the walking.
>However, after Napoleon cucked the Swiss, they refused to go war again for France.
>That was a catastrophe for la Grande Nation, desperately they tried to build a French Foreign Legion, which kinda worked but was no real replacement for battle hardened Swiss regiments. And ever since France kept losing wars.


And you're a fucking piece of shit. Yet you're the first one to bring insults to the debate. In green above, I took the time to retrieve the first post of this internal "debate". You've been talking about the Swiss in French services that would explain French's military success. Well, not only did the Swiss were not in the French army while it achieved it's most glorious success, also the Swiss where in the French army for the worst times of the French army. And no I don't mean WWII, since on a historical board we all know the 7Years War was worse for us.

That's been my whole point, and
I am surprised you couldn't put 2 and 2 together.


>>2215527
That if France owes military success to anybody, it's not to the Swiss which have been nothing but memes for at least 4 centuries.

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>>2209431
Because you're Wrong!
France has been a European and world power since the high middle ages.

They briefly lost in ww2, but thousands of Frenchmen fought as Free French. They wore the cross of Lorraine.
They were led by DeGaulle and LeClerc.

They fought in North Africa.
They landed on d-day.
French armored divisions liberated Paris.

Vietnam? We didn't win there either.
Algeria? The three northern departments still speak french and have very close ties to France.

Ever heard of GIGN?
They are the guys that killed the terrorists after the Paris attacks.

They are brave and have great elan.
France is our first Ally.
Brothers in Revolution!

Long live the French Republic!

>>2216723
Neither one of you got it right.

The Swiss Guards were part of le maison du Roi.
They were a fraction of the French royal army.

During the French Revolution, at the storming of the Tuileries, the Swiss stood their post, and were killed or executed. Some got back to their cantons, and did not fight for France, or anyone afterwards.

>>2216821
I don't see how you invalidate my point.

>>2216821
The Swiss Guards where a small but prominent part of the Swiss contingent.
The French basically domesticated Switzerland, they turned them from an unruly mountain tribe into their personal pet and breed them for warriors. In fact, the Swiss where so preoccupied doing Frances fighting that they forgott to have own foreign interests for centuries. Instead they hired their entire military away for centuries.

>>2216723
>That if France owes military success to anybody, it's not to the Swiss which have been nothing but memes for at least 4 centuries.
Then you do not know much about History. It is one of the oddities of history that the French managed to manage the Swiss. The mercenary Industry of Switzerland and France's use of this to control the Swiss and use them as their personal army is a well known fact.

>>2217203
> It is one of the oddities of history that the French managed to manage the Swiss. The mercenary Industry of Switzerland and France's use of this to control the Swiss and use them as their personal army is a well known fact.

This oddity is historically irrelevant as soon as we talk about the country France, and not about the country Switzerland. Why, see previous post and relevant time periods for French military grandeur. I can add more examples if you're not convinced.

>>2217280
>This oddity is historically irrelevant as soon as we talk about the country France
What you don't seem to understand is that we are talking about medieval entities and not about modern states. also your chauvinism is not very helpful.

Switzerland was something like the little psychopath in the middle of Europe, a military powerhouse but politically completely inept and erratic eruptions of war, run by peasants and a collection of micro republics and tribal areas in the middle of Europe. That and the strategic passes trough the Alps.
They annihilated Burgundy, the richest and most powerful state in all Europe at the time just for fun. They did not capitalize on that win, they did not take turf or increase their sphere of influence, they just killed Burgundy and went home again (Some people say Luis XI cleverly engineered that). Same with the Swabian war where they destroyed the united forces of the HRE and then did nothing. Apart from that they went plundering all their neighbors at random. Unfortunately the only thing they agreed on was to take more turf in northern Italy, something that collided with French interests and 50 years later Marignano happens.
Then Francis I made a smart move. He went to the Swiss Tagsatzung and put 760'000 livre tournois on the table and asked them to hire the Swiss army, nearly 16'000 blokes, all armed, trained and ready to fight. The Swiss, who couldn't agree on the color of an orange and really had not much of an idea what to do with additional turf anyway agreed, and so the story of the Swiss in French services began.
According to May the Romain-motier, King Francis I alone hired more than 160'000 Swiss soldiers alone during his reign.
The Swiss completely stopped having an own expansionist policy, and instead made an industry out of their abundance of belligerent young man. The French had pacified their neighbor and turned them into their little pitbull.

>>2217349
That went on, the Swiss turned soldering into their main industry, entire city states like Bern where busy raising regiments, train them, supply them with own officers and weapons and then hiring them out to the kings of Europe. They made good money of this and also got culturally enriched, mainly by France.
For the French Kings this was great news, not only had they taken care of an erratic and intentionally dangerous neighbor, they also now had the finest infantry at their disposal.
Back in the day, almost all soldiers where mercs, you had to hire men somewhere, and this involved always the local nobles, political bargaining, unsure loyalties etc. Until 1671 (Luis XIV) France did not have a standing army, but the Kings hired men whenever needed. Now France had the Gendarmes which made excellent cavalry, but they lacked in the infantry department. Hiring the Swiss was highly beneficial to them, they would get an entire army, trained, disciplined and with unit cohesion, instead of hiring small warbands and forming them into an army themselves. Just add cavalry and a General and you are ready for war.
Better, the Swiss where staunchly loyal to the guy who hired them and had no political ambitions in France themselves. Now France had turbulent times back then, Religious wars, Fronde etc. the King must make sure that his soldiers will also turn willingly on his own people. The Swiss did just that, if paid even their protestants would slaughter other protestant wholesale.
So for 200 years, the infantry component of France was preferably Swiss. In exchange, the French did pay the Swiss well and teach them to read and write and how to eat with knife and fork.

>>2217349
>also your chauvinism is not very helpful.
I'm not the one trying to give my country relevance, but I'll admit it up to a certain extent. Before anything, France has been united for a long time. And yes, that includes Middle Ages. The current France has some parts of Italy and Alsace more than the Middle Ages one. Our identity rose up before the HYW, I'd say during the first Franco-English war in 1214, but that's only my opinion.

Then you talk about Middle Ages Switzerland. Cool bro, I don't really give a fuck, but sure.
>They annihilated Burgundy, the richest and most powerful state in all Europe at the time just for fun.

And here I stood thinking it was because Burgundy tried to invade Switzerland, and that the Swiss could not push back (oh right, """"didnt want""""). kek, how missinformed. Also "most powerful" kekitykek. First it was run over by the Swiss, so no. Also it was run over by any neighbour they had, including France. So that's a no2. They were rich though. A bit like you: rich but irrelevant :^)

And then what the fuck, how can you call me chauvinistic. I don't have a phD in Swiss history (I'm not quite curious enough for some reason) but I'm pretty sure such an educated mind could argue back on at least few points you made in this CERTAINLYNOTCHAUVINISTIC-propaganda paragraphs.

Let me just say you that yes, Francis I was a French king. But no, he was not the biggest, nor the most important nor even the most respected. He's not very liked. Probably a reason he needed to hire the Swiss.

>>2217389
>So for 200 years, the infantry component of France was preferably Swiss. I

Yeah that's possible. Again I don't have a clue about one of the least relevant periods of French history. And really I don't care, please stop unless you can find the Swiss in the Nouvelle France, in the Indian Ocean, in Moscow, in London, in Berlin, in Rio de Janeiro, in Malta, in Stockholm, in Madrid in ... comment too long :)

>>2216810
Pretty sure all these units/men you mentionned were Swiss

>>2217400
>And here I stood thinking it was because Burgundy tried to invade Switzerland,
Actually no, Bern was trying to expand into the Vaud, which was Burgundy territory. Bern was supported by Luis XI and provoked Charles into an attack, which then triggered a Swiss response. They did fight and rout Charles at Grandson and at Morat, but mostly for the rich plunder. Lateron Luis XI lent the Duke of Lorraine money to hire Swiss soldier to break the siege of Nancy. During the Battle of Nancy Charles was killed and Burgundy destroyed. The Swiss could not agree on what to do, they did not take any turf, not even in the Vaud, instead all the spoils went to Luis XI. Now that was a clever man.

>>2217400
>unless you can find the Swiss in the Nouvelle France, in the Indian Ocean, in Moscow, in London, in Berlin, in Rio de Janeiro, in Malta, in Stockholm, in Madrid..
Easy, Marine-Infanterie-Regiment Karrer, (12 Swiss Regiment) served at the Mississippi border and fought in the Chicksaw campaign. The also fought in Cap-Breton, Santo Domingo and Martinique. Large Swiss contingents where in Moscow with the great army and in the Peninsular war there where several Swiss regiments on both sides (and always with red coats, very confusing.). You will have a hard time to name a major French battle, war or campaign where there where no Swiss between 1515 and the Revolution.
France literally used the Swiss as their personal army.

>>2217453
You do realize that Swiss regiments were known to desert as one during the Peninsula War, right? You're so thick you'll take pride in it, but you do realize it okay?

>You will have a hard time to name a major French battle, war or campaign where there where no Swiss between 1515 and the Revolution.

Quebec. There, I found it.

>>2217467
>You do realize that Swiss regiments were known to desert as one during the Peninsula War, right?
And of course you have now source for this, right?

>>2217467
>Quebec
As mentioned, Regiment Karrer served with distinction in Nouvelle France, from 1730 onwards in Quebec and Louisbourg.

>>2217467
>Swiss regiments were known to desert as one during the Peninsula War,
Highly doubt that, but then Napoléon conquered Switzerland, and instead of paying them to go to war forced them to do so. I'd understand if they where not exactly keen on fighting for no pay at all.

>>2217481
I do, back in Paris. It's a compilation of letters from the Grand Armée. You see what the men thought. (The men that were not censored thought*, but the Swiss are in this mater as well, irrelevant).

>As mentioned, Regiment Karrer served with distinction in Nouvelle France, from 1730 onwards in Quebec and Louisbourg.
Any source on that? Quebec is a city in historical discussions, not a province.

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>>2217400
>Again I don't have a clue about one of the least relevant periods of French history

Thats bad for you, especially on /his/. Like you will get btfo in every debate kind of bad.
I'd suggest you read up on Turenne and Vauban and then decide if that period was so irrelevant as you believe.

>>2217491
>I do, back in Paris. It's a compilation of letters from the Grand Armée.
I do the same, I have a collection of letters somewhere blablabla. Post a source your /pol/tard, this is his, either you can source it or it is hearsay.

And yes, here is the Quebec source.
http://www.cmhg.gc.ca/cmh/page-150-eng.asp

>>2217515
Eventhough I'm surprised you came up with a source ... woaw. 29 soldiers in Quebec. Hearsay all you want I'm not taking an hour to find for a source on my shit, which I have no certainty of finding online. Stay oblivious to criticism if you wish.

>>2217504
What, Vauban was a Swiss in the italian wars of succession? Earlier you talk Francois Ier and now you talk Louis XIV? What's it gonna be next? The logical XVth ? Suffren had only Swiss sailors?

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>>2217491
>Grand Armée.
>Peninuslar war
Give it up, if you are this shit at history the Swiss guy will eat you alive.

>>2217534
>Murat Soult Masséna Ney Suchet Lassalle

Stay in denial, this campaign cost us the war.

>>2217531
>woaw. 29 soldiers in Quebec
Reading comprehension seems not to be your strong part. If you'd read the source you'd see that the made up 15-20% of the French contingent in Quebec during a 30 years period. Also Louisburg was the main Fortress: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortress_of_Louisbourg

>>2217531
>What, Vauban was a Swiss in the italian wars of succession?
You are not really smart, are you? Why do you come to his when you don't even know about your own countries history? Much more why do you post? You haven't come up with a single source so far and have been refuted every time.

>>2217543
Yes, and it was not part of the Grande Armee.

>>2213414
>But mate, Germans ? They hate us so fucking much kek. I've never met a German that did not hate the French.
In my experience Germans don't give a shit about France. It's a completely irrelevant country to them. With Brazil, Argentina, Italy and the Netherlands there's a bit of a football rivalry going on but France is not on their radar at all.

>>2217554
I saw a lot of insults, but only one source so far. This much for being refuted "every time". Stay delusional then, I'm not interested in speaking with people that have only this one leverage in debates. I'm morally satisfied with my source. You don't have to trust me, I understand. I don't really care about you believing me or not, honestly speaking.

>You are not really smart, are you? Why do you come to his when you don't even know about your own countries history? Much more why do you post? You haven't come up with a single source so far and have been refuted every time.
Sure, replying to rethorics makes you an interesting fellow for sure. Salty much? (Oh no, I forgot :^) ) But well, maybe me not being smart has something to do with historical facts, such as Vauban and Francois Ier not being related.

>>2217567
The Grand Armée participated in it. You do not prove anything, sure I abused the language a little bit. But eventhough the Armée d'Espagne was dedicated to Spain, it was not always alone. Fucking hell why do I reply to trolls.

>>2217629
>I saw a lot of insults, but only one source so far.
>>2210001
>>2210039
>>2214849
>>2217515
>>2217554
Again, you are not very good at this, are you? All you bring to the table is staunch chauvinism and ignorance. And you haven't posted a single source for your points. Honestly you are /pol/ level.
>muh France is so great
>don't need sources, just disregard anything that doesn't fit my narrative

But then, your autims is great, you keep on replying and so I can have a thread about Swiss mercenaries for free. Thanks a lot for that, mon ami.

>>2217721
So what is your point exactly ? Half of the posts you referenced did not involve me at all in the chain and in the others you insult me. Maybe you've been speaking to different people over the course of 2 days. On an anonymous forum. Who would have thought? Excuse me I go puke, I've got vertigo.

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>>2209431
France is the most successful European power in terms of wars won and lost.

stop with this shitty fucking facebook-tier meme

>>2213210
>Alberto Barbosa
>not retreating to Brazil like the coward he is

>>2219097
>implying a strategic retreat is bad

Guess who won the war

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>>2209431
Is this 2004 again?

>>2213313
It's pretty funny coming from people who gained their independence by sucking french dicks.

>>2213210
>literally saved from Napi by Portuguese and Anglos
m-muh guerrilla warfare

>>2217446
You truly know nothing about History or military matters.

Or you're just Bait.

>>2221525
>cancer thread nearing the edge of the board
>better bump the thread with a smug reply to signal how clever I am
kill your self

>>2209472
>even when we were the most relevant country un Europe
When? Austria just lucked out and got Spain to fight for them for a while

>>2209580
>thanks to its american gold and silver,
The Italian wars happened before the discovery of America and France got buttfucked. Either way the gold and silver from America wasn't even a main source of income

>>2213210
Spain won more wars against France than the other way around. Also France was the one forming coallitions against Spain at the time like the leaguw of Cognac or allying with the Ottomans

>>2213284
France still had a bigger population than all Charle territories combined. They still keep losing with Phillip the II and had just waited until the end of the 30 years war to attack Spain. How can you be so deluded?

>>2213414
>we saved their arses from muslims
When?

>>2214849
You also have Bicoca in which Swiss mercs autistically charged and lost a fucking war by themselves
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bicocca

>>2221566
>France still had a bigger population than all Charle territories combined
That's actually wrong
Counting its territories in Germany, Italy and the Low countries, Spain had a larger population than France
Whuch didnt matter anyway since army were mostly mercenaries rather than conscripts back then
It was who had the most money that had the biggest army, not who had the largest pop
And Spain was richer than all of Europe

>and had just waited until the end of the 30 years war to attack Spain
A war in which Spain didnt take part at all until the Franco-Spanish War, unlike France that had helped Sweden against the krauts

>>2221555
>Spain won more wars against France than the other way around

If you count irrelevant skirmishes in Italy and the colonies, maybe
But if you look only at big scale wars on the Franco-Spanish border, France won them all (they're listed there >>2212681 )

>>2221587
>Counting its territories in Germany,
Charles didn't own Germany. He just owned Austria
>which Spain didnt take part at all until the Franco-Spanish War,
This is false. Spain fought in the war since the invasion of the Palatinate which happened at the beginning of the war and they beat the Swedes at Nördlingen. You don't need to lie

>>2221594
>Italian wars
>Irrelevant
Ok. Either way France failed to keep Navarra and admitted to be the lesser European power after the treaty of Cateau-Cambrésis. I don't know why you need to lie on /his/ pal.

>>2209431
The french are pretty good at war.

With world war 2 they decided to surrender because they didn't want to needlessly throw away lives

>>2221571
The Reconquista was initiated by the French. Without the French pushing back the Muslims way beyond the Pyrenees, Spain would be muslim atm. You did finish the job alone but you got a shitton of aid at first. Recall the whole thing lasted several centuries.


>>2221609
Not completely irrelevant but look at the end picture.
There are no spaniards in Italy now. However there is some of Italy in France (Savoy (yes under Napithecomeback), Leonardo da Vinci and shit).
Stop thinking we dislike you, Spaniards are good latin bros.

>>2221610
MEME
E
M
E


Pétain surrendered to be a fascist dictator, and not to save lives. He hated socialism.
"Let's put an end to 20 years of socialism"
-Pétain, 1940

>>2221619
>>2221619
>The Reconquista was initiated by the French
Covadonga happened before. The Fremch started the mediterranean reconquista which was always a minor front.
>Not completely irrelevant but look at the end picture.
There are no spaniards in Italy now.
Lots of them mixed
>However there is some of Italy in France (Savoy (yes under Napithecomeback)
Because it is in the border with France
>, Leonardo da Vinci and shit).
El prado is full of Italian paintings and probably has the biggest collection of Italian painters after the Uffizi galery.
On the other hand the conquest of Naples and Lombardy gave Spain huge revenues,the control of the western mediterranean and a lot of wood for ships
>Stop thinking we dislike you, Spaniards are good latin bros.
I don't think that. I like France. My gf is French. You were just lying

>>2221600
>Charles didn't own Germany. He just owned Austria
And Austria owned current Germany
Are you dense? Map of Charles possessions is right here >>2213284

>>2221681
>And Austria owned current Germany
>Are you dense?
The HRE didn't work like that pal...

>>2221672
>My gf is French

This sounds like a more polished version of "I did your mom" or "we black bois fuck all your women"
No one believes you, insecure spic

>>2221688
I am not kidding m8. She was an exchange student. I mean I go to France frequently. I don't hate you. French are alright and pretty nice people when you know them

>>2221694
I'm not the french dude you replied too
I never met any french so I don't know about them, but we have many spaniards here in LA and all of them are cancer
Why wont you spics you remove yourselves from earth?
I hope Trump will build the fucking wall soon

>>2221619

Thats some serious denial.

>>2212453
>>2212395
Holy fuck this. How the fuck doesnt he know england wanted to conquer france?
When a besieger loses a siege, it's because he didnt even take the castle. Same with the 100 years war.

>>2221706
>we have many spaniards here in LA
Nice b8.

>>2221594
>If you count irrelevant skirmishes in Italy and the colonies, maybe
France invaded the richest region of europe.

70 years and 8 Italian Wars later, with many of them fought as part of the 4 Habsburg-French Wars of that time; Habsburg Spain completely surrounded France, had annexed half of Italy and dominated the less valuable rest at will, has become the dominating Great Power of europe and won 95% of all battles in that period.

>i-i-it was just an unimportant s-s-skirmish, r-right?

>>2212418
Lmao this. This demonstartes how shitty his life must be so that he NEEDS to feel somehow validated or accomplished by actions done by people 500+ years ago

>>2217936
KEK
>Let's count wars and battles, quite a part of them fought against niggers, majority fought against seriously weaker enemies, France won most of them, so they are best.

>>2221766
France fought almost all their european wars against large-scale coalitions.
It was only the modern wars (were also the France Sucks meme comes from) were they are on the side of the coalition.

>>2221748
Good Jaime, now go back to paint the heroic spanish tercios that were btfo'd out of possible recovery by... the French.

Just like the Swiss

>>2221796
>now go back to paint the heroic spanish tercios that were btfo'd out of possible recovery by... the French
After 150 years of being undefeated and outnumbered...

>>2221839
If you only look at the regular battles, France lost all the time in the italian wars, safe for Ravenna and Ceresole. That's precisly why France after Pavia refused, most of the time to fight the spanish armies on the field. The Spanish exhaust themselves with sieges.All the spanish invasions of France failed, and when Francis I died, France still controlled Piedmont ans Savoy. Charles V himself failed to take Metz back to the french, it was on of the reason he decided to abdicate.

After that, French were stupid to enough to atack again the spanish and all their gains were lost. But, the same way, Spain policy during the french wars of religion failed. Henri IV became king, unlike what the spanish had planned.

>>2221770
And most of the time was by far most powerful in that wars, we can do that with most nations which were blessed with good geographical position. Similar would be Russia, they lost some wars with Poland long time ago, but for each that war there will be dozens of won ones against tribals/mongols/shits like Chechen ones etc. and that doesn't somehow make them amazing at war.

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>>2221839
Elite units are always outnumbered, this alone does not make them better than other elite forces. Having a better army on the large scale is harder to achieve than having just special ops. And that's where you see the greatest nations ((((Empires)))).

Also if you want to go microscopic then I think the French win nonetheless. Amongst a shitton of other examples, have a look at pic related, who single handedly held a bridge against an army of Spaniards. It's rare that this kind of thing is not propaganda you know.

>>2209431
You know France existed before WWII, right?

>>2209431
Nothing because that's a stale burger meme. Why is America, a superpower, so bad at winning its own wars?