Why did Arabs fail in every war with Israel? Bad overall strategy?

>>2202621

http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars

>>2202625
Very in-depth and interesting. In following the Syrian war, I've definitely noticed the trends (obsession with pride, lack of lateral communication, lack of combined forces, sectarianism) this article talks about.
This makes me wonder though exactly what has changed in Arab culture since the military successes of the Caliphates.

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>>2202671
>what has changed in Arab culture since the military successes of the Caliphates.
legitimacy. Its hard to create a strong army in an unstable state that has to constantly police its own populace. Its also hard to put the state before tribal politics if the aforementioned state is just a meme created by foreigners drawing lines n the sand.

>>2202625
>racist neocon shit

>>2203103
prove it

>>2202621
They didn't have a covenant with God.

>>2202621
If you're truly curious, read this book.

https://books.google.com/books?id=gOyXCwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=kenneth+pollack+why+arabs+lose+wars&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj1nfam27bRAhVIl1QKHSnDD_EQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=just%20goes%20into%20the%20same%20place%20every%20time&f=false

>>2203106
Mid east forum is a racist neocon organisation. They don't exactly try to hide it. And several of the wars they site as proof of Arab ineptitude were fought against other Arabs.

>>2202671
The Caliphates were a one-off generated by the unity that Mohammad and his close successors provided to the Arabian peninsula. They fragmented into warring, feuding factions a century into the Abbasid dynasty and this break in unity allowed for both the Byzantine resurgence under the Macedon dynasty and later the First Crusade.

>>2203124
Even if they are racist or neo-con, it doesnt matter. If their argument is so flawed, why don't you just point out a flaw instead of attacking the source?

>>2203130
The only defense of the idpol liberal is ad hominem.

Remember, arguments don't matter if you can brand your opponent an evil buzzword wacist!

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>>2202621
Honestly, it's just being shit at every level. They may have had good equipment (often times even better than the Israelis), but they were god awful at fighting.

A good case study is the Bekaa Valley air battle in 1982. The Syrians set up a SAM network in the Bekaa Valley in 1981, threatening IAF operations in the area. The IAF spent a year preparing for an operation to take out the network, culminating in one of the largest post-ww2 air battles. The IAF used drones, ELINT, and land-based reconnaissance to scout out the locations of the batteries for over a year to plan out their attack. To their surprise, the Syrians kept the SA-6 batteries - mobile launchers - completely static this entire time in defiance of all logic and doctrine.

The IAF kicked off their operation with the launching of a large number of decoy drones at the network. The Syrians responded with all batteries firing in an uncoordinated manner, expending all their missiles. Once this had happened, the IAF started jamming from various platforms while F-16s and Kfirs swooped in and attacked the helpless batteries.

The Syrian Air Force responded in a panicked manner, sortieing aircraft as fast as they could and sending them out one-by-one towards the battlefield. Waiting for them, behind a wall of jamming that Syrian ground controllers couldn't see past, was almost the entire IAF F-15 fleet. As Syrian pilots were trained to fly only guided by ground controllers, they panicked once they hit jamming, and often were downed without even knowing they were being shot at. Meanwhile, the F-15s were working with AWACS and drones that were literally watching the Syrian fighters take off and fly to their deaths.

The IAF then repeated this operation the next day with similar results. The end results:
>50 to 80 Syrian aircraft downed
>30 SA-6 batteries destroyed
>2 F-15s damaged by gunfire
>one drone downed

>cont

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>>2203571

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>>2203571
The Soviet advisors in Syria trying to pick up the pieces in the aftermath of this catastrophe found that the Syrians were effectively sticking to the worst parts of Soviet doctrine while ignoring the crucial elements necessary to make it work. Critical failures included:
>Keeping the mobile batteries static
doctrine calls for constant irregular shifting of launchers to prevent enemy from mapping out batteries
>Poor discipline and coordination of battery operators
The Syrian batteries had no coordination between them, causing multiple batteries to engage the same target while leaving others untouched. Worse, many batteries expended all of their loaded missiles, leaving them vulnerable to attack. Once the attack had begun, those that still had missiles loaded were firing them haphazardly into the air without guidance, as the jamming was preventing their radars from working. Some panicked crews also threw smoke in hopes of concealing their position, but instead just marked their position for bombing.
>Scrambling fighters haphazardly
fighters were sent alone with no support, not even knowing what they were up against. Worse, the Syrians literally just sent everything they had, including Su-22s - attacker aircraft with only nominal air-to-air capabilities.
>Too much reliance on GCI
Though Soviet air doctrine is heavily reliant on ground controlled interception, the Syrians seemed to take this to an extreme - their pilots appeared to be completely helpless without communication with ground controllers. It's a lazy way to operate an air force, and air forces are an area where you really can't skimp out on training at all.

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>>2203571
jesus, how will arabs EVER recover?

>>2203587
And that's the general trend we see repeated across most conflicts between Arab and Western nations. Arab nations of the time tended to be heavily reliant on very rigid doctrine that wasn't always applied correctly. While this provided for some occasional successes, such as the Egyptian push across the Suez Canal in 1973, it leaves them unable to respond organically to a changing battlespace and very vulnerable to an opponent willing and able to adapt.

As to why this is, I can't say for sure. A good deal of it may be a reaction to the cultural problems endemic to many Arab nations today - the rivalries between ethnic groups, regions, and even families coupled with poor education of many recruits makes complex operations exceedingly difficult if not impossible. While the doctrine they implemented may have been flawed and often outdated, it was certainly better than nothing at all, and likely the best they could do. The rigid, centralized doctrine they were working with allowed for the regimes they served to reduce the number of important people critical to the success of operations. You could continue to have fairly low quality and even unreliable soldiers on the frontlines while still maintaining a fairly cohesive force.

Of course, this all fails spectacularly when you come across a force capable of adapting, as happened to the Syrians in 1982 or the Iraqis in 1991. But for regional conflicts, it allowed these clusterfucks of nations to field a force respectable enough to at least deter aggression from their neighbors (usually).

Sorry if that's rambling. It's getting late here.

>>2202671
>what has changed in Arab culture since the military successes of the Caliphates.

People dont fight on horseback with swords and Islam as the uniting factor has worn off

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>>2202621
Since there's a lot of Zionist shitposting and falsifying of history here, let me try to save this thread with actual facts:

>1948: first half of the war Arabs were winning and captured west bank plus many other areas until both sides expended their weapons and ammunition. Long ceasefire in which Jews got rearmed from Czechoslovakia whereas Arabs didn't allowed Jews to seize more areas and win after ceasefire.

>1967: Israelis achieved complete surprise and obliterated Arab air force on the ground leaving the remainder of the Arab armies as sitting ducks
>1973: Arabs were kicking ass the first few days advehypt destroyed 400 Israeli tanks in first few days. Arab political interferences messed up the army and didn't let them follow their original plans, leading to defeat.

>1980's Lebanon: Israel and Syria avoided battles with each other, ground engagements were more or less even, Israel had a far superior Air Force and mostly fought lightly armed Palestinian militias.
>2006 Lebanon: Hezbollah won and kicked Israel out of Lebanon

Israelis actually suck at ground fighting without air supremacy, the entire basis of their victories is overwhelming air power.

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>>2203673
So I guess Air Power DOES win wars.

>>2203687
yeah except in cases of prolonged insurgency. Air power is more important in pitched battles between large tank forces.

>>2202671
>what has changed in Arab culture since the military successes of the Caliphates
war has changed

>>2202621
Largly manpower
Israel just had a surge of a few million people, about half of whome could be mobilized due to their policies.

The arabs didnt have that

>>2203134
>brand your opponent an evil buzzword wacist!
you seriously weaken your point by saying "wacist" instead of racist, don't do that

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>>2203587
Some time ago I spoke to a member of the Russian diplomatic corps and remember him complain about the Syrians saying "they take everything from us but advice". I think I'm starting to understand his frustration.

>>2203710
war never changes

>>2203744
excuse me?

modern armies are vastly different from those of the caliphate

>>2203749
ID tagged guns

True story, the PLO during the 1982 invasion of Lebanon put T-34's to work against Israeli air power and Merkava's.
It didn't go well.

>>2203753
ID tagged soldiers

>>2203790
F

The overall organizational efforts against Israel were poorly executed and suffered from frustrated relations between the Arab states. They couldn't get along with each other, and as as a result failed to defeat a thinly-spread, desperate-for-survival country.

Also, international support from the U.S. helped counter Arab and later Soviet efforts in the region.

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Reclaiming this thread from the racists.

2017 marks 50 years from the Six Days War.
So in about six months, it is very likely that Israel will see a huge Arab revolt if they don't come to some kind of agreement with the Palestinians.

Where and how did things go so wrong, that it takes more than half a century to figure out borders between Palestine and Israel?

>>2203620
Thanks for the info.

>>2203914
>So in about six months ...
that doesnt follow m8.
>Where and how did things go so wrong...
land disputes are common. many of them are older, some are even in Europe! who would have thought?

>>2203914
Please link to a single racist post in this thread

>>2203914
>Where and how did things go so wrong, that it takes more than half a century to figure out borders between Palestine and Israel?
They don't want Palestine to exist, period, and want a demographic majority of Jews in the area. It's not that hard to understand. And I'm not saying this is a bad thing.

>>2203571
>>2203587
Thanks, good post. Embarasing story.

>>2202621
Bolshevik tanks are good for Eastern European plain, but they suck in deserts. Western tanks have higher profile and can more easily cover behind dunes.

Not saying it was a decisive factor, but it surely helped the Jews.

>>2204754
Lets not forget that after Kennedy "fortunately" died, LBJ tripled the military aid to Israel in 1965 to 170 million and gave them 200 M48 Patton tanks and 2 dozen Skyhawk bomber jets.

>>2204754
yeah, which is why india, which also used a good number of soviet made tanks was able to use them effectively against pakistani manned M48s

>>2204761
Sounds like a good choice from LBJ. What makes you think Kennedy, a staunch supporter of Israel, would not support the Jews?

>>2204769
>Despite the qualitative and numerical superiority of Pakistani armour,[91] Pakistan was outfought on the battlefield by India, which made progress into the Lahore-Sialkot sector, whilst halting Pakistan's counteroffensive on Amritsar;[92][93] they were sometimes employed in a faulty manner, such as charging prepared defences during the defeat of Pakistan's 1st Armoured Division at Asal Uttar.

Such a minor advantage would not make up for Islamic impotency in modern warfare.

>>2204761
>Kennedy died
Actually the Israeli US alliance really started after 67 when Israel prooved it's worth to the yankies as an effective cold war ally. Seeing as USSR was suppling weapons to the arabs and taking over the region. Israel is one of the only US allies (including in Europe) they didn't need to propup with their own soldiers. Before that Israel's only ally was France and even than they turned on them right before the 67 war.
>>2204598
>what is oslo accords in 93
>what is camp david talks in 2001
>what is unilateral disengagement from gaza
Each time pro peace elements took power in Israel Palestinians made sure to take advantage and bomb and kill as many people they could to disctedit the Israeli left completely

>>2204754
not to mention export model Soviet tanks were like shitty ripoffs that had much weaker armour. Even Chinese export tanks that were based on Soviet designs were better than Soviet export tanks since the Chinks exported the actual model that they used, not a shitty downgraded version.

>>2202621
There's nothing wrong with the Arab, physically speaking.

Just look at the performance of the Arab Legion under Bagot-Glubb (British General). With the right leadership they do admirably well.

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>no mention of this spectacular blunder

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_War

Even a bunch of Africans in pickup trucks can defeat a modern army provided the army is comprised of Arabs.

Simple: Arabs have ZERO sense of stuff like logistics, staffwork, and anything else that lies beyond firing a weapon or operating a vehicle.

My brother and a buddy were stationed in the Middle East and the stories they told me about how inept Arabs are is mind-boggling. They really disdain the meat-and-potatoes aspects of a military like vehicle repair and maintenance for instance. They feel that it's beneath their dignity.

>>2202621
>Smelly savages vs the snake like cleverness of the khazar
hmmm I wonder....

>>2204802
>Each time pro peace elements took power in Israel Palestinians made sure to take advantage and bomb and kill as many people they could to disctedit the Israeli left completely
I think it's unfair to equate Hamas with Palestinian governing, Hamas wasnt exactly democratically elected to speak for the Palestinian people and it is in their own self-interest that they continue bombings, they have very insidious ulterior motives.

>>2202621
>>2202671

Billy Waugh, a former Green Beret and CIA operative with a career spanning multiple decades and international theatres of operations, spent some time in Libya as an advisor in the late 70's. He basically observed a non-functioning core of NCO's. Lazy arabs believe that their officers will do all the important work and so never develop discipline, tactical know-how, or mechanical knowledge of equipment. Contrast this with western militaries where the NCO's are the backbone of a functioning military force and you can easily see why Arabs are shit at warfare. Israel really has it too easy, they're a Western country surrounded by goatfuckers.

>>2205041
Except that Rabin asked Arafat repeatedly to arrest Ihia Ayash Hamas military wing commander that was responsible for the suicide bombings, giving him intel about his hiding places and Arafat claimed tgat he is not in Gaza. And Israelis continue to die in buss bombings discrediting Rabin completely and contributing to his assassination. Andcthen when Israel finds and kills Ayash in Gaza? He areanges and attends a mass funeral for Ayash and serves as main speaker praising him. A guy that is responsible for hundreds of Israelis killed. And there were hundreds of such cases.
What did Arafat do when Ehud Barak offered him statehood and half of Jerusalem? He demanded that Israel accepts 6 million Arabs as citizens breaking the negotiations and starting a suicide bombing campaign in union with Hamas, while using the armed troops he got under the agreement to attak Israeli positions.
And what happened after Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza taking down settlements? Did it bring peace? No, Hamas won the elections took control in Gaza and all the international peacekeepers that were supposed to keep the peace fled home.
So really, they could have had a state long time ago. It's not their plan anyway. They want to win the war, it's a zero sum game for them. It could gave been admirable in a way, if they didn't bitch so much when they loose the wars they start and their situation gets repeatedly worse.

>>2205147
There is also a famous story from the 73 war. When Israelis were able to turn the table and took to the offencive in Syria, there was a point when Assad senior ordered the Republican Guards to retreat to Damascus opening the way for Israelis to encircle the regular divisions. The idea behind this was that he realised that he lost the war and that the soviets would preven Israel from marching on Damascus anyway. So now his priority was to preserve his best and most loyal division and allow the Israelis to massacre the rest of his army so after all ends he will be left in control and with the best troops in case a civil war starts.

A lot of the problems Arabs have with war are not so much Arab problems as they are third world dictatorship problem.Most Arab states are post colonial messes created by the English and French with the express intent of being ethnically and religiously fractious disasters lacking in legitimacy. These Arab states can't have well functioning armies because the illegitimacy of their countries means they can't have well functioning states. While "Why Arabs Lose Wars" may be racist and wrong about the underlying cause of the Arab nations sucking at war, it is entirely right about the how. The various problems it describes are precisely the problems that all third-world dictatorships armies, and indeed all civil institutions, have.

What if the arabs won, would the Israeli state cease to exist?

>>2205629
>Most Arab states are post colonial messes created by the English and French with the express intent of being ethnically and religiously fractious disasters lacking in legitimacy.

I thought diversity was our strenght. Are you implying that homogenous nation-states are more effective?

>>2205680
1948? Most likely yes, that was the stated goal of the war. It would depend on whether or not there was foreign intervention and the extent and the result of that intervention. It's possible that the British simply would not allow the Palestinians to conquer the Israeli territory, in which case your question is moot.

What is unclear also would be the fate of the Jews and the area as a whole. If they were allowed to live peacefully in Palestine, then its possible that Jews could have very quickly out competed Palestinians for demographic dominance and the State of Israel would have been declared democratically. Basically the reverse situation of today.

>>2203583
needs a higher forehead

>>2203711
The Arabs outnumbered Israelis in every war.

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>>2203727
>....wait

>>2205689
It's not so much homogenous ethnicity as it is a homogenous national consciousness. To be fair ethnicity has historically been the easiest and fastest way to create such a consciousness. But places like the Americas have shown that with certain other factors a National Consciousness can be created through other means. The issue is that in the Middle-East people already have certain ethnic or tribal identities that are kept intact both by first colonial/now local dictators to prevent national awakening, and by these local Identities themselves in order to provide security against the former. A kind of Ouroboros of tragedy.

>>2205750
thanks.

>>2203620
Mindframe of a people is overlooked. Everyone can accept a German for acting "german". Certain traits, a sliding scale of virtue. Perhaps it is a fear of being accused of stereotyping that the same summation will never be said of people of color. 2017

>>2203103
>talks about cultural issue
>racism

Here's your (you). Now fuck off back to your r/AskHistorians. I mean look at fucking Iran-Iraq

>Have weapons and support from Murica
>Have chemical weapons
>More tanks and guns
>cant beat LITERAL human wave child soldiers

Arabs are terrible at 21st century conventional warfare and their track record shows this. Name one conventional war they won against a non arab foe in the last 70 years. I'll wait.

>>2205629
>the express intent of being ethnically and religiously fractious disasters lacking in legitimacy

Sykes Picot has become a bit of a meme. The borders were perfectly reasonable, emulating Ottoman vilayets but with more consideration for ethnic realities. The main evil was the way most colonial empires retain their power, by means of divide and conquer. Post colonial Arab History is pretty much defined by one group crushing another group. But after decades have passed, it becomes less convincing to blame the short lived Western mandates over the Middle East.

>>2203914

I wonder if Israel would fight back if the UN declared that the entire territory was now Palestine?

They say that Palestinians were wrong for fighting against the same decision.

>>2203914
reclaimed and eliminated the decadent leftists kuks from this thread

>>2206175

Which year did the west cease all involvement in the Middle East?

Decades ago?

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>>2203715
>changing one letter triggers me

>>2206205
you mean like bomb UN hQ or what

>>2206258

I mean if they were told that the place they were living was now called Palestine and that they had to leave, would they do it peacefully?

>>2202625
Came here to mention it but I could not find the article so thanks..

>>2202621
Being inbred and inferior to masterrace Ashkenazi.

Gayrabs fucked goats while based Jews were splitting the atom.

>>2206286
no one can actually tell us that to back it up.

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>>2205963
>Name one conventional war they won against a non arab foe in the last 70 years. I'll wait.

Lebanon 2006

>>2206345


Not even him, but I don't think you know what a conventional war is. Hezbollah is not a nation-state's army. It is, pretty much by definition, not a conventional war.

>>2206345
>Terrorism is conventional warfare!

Spotted Abdul about to prepare for his jihad

As a Latin American, I wonder how we are at warfare, we don't usually fight conventional wars too often.

How did the Argies fare at the Falklands War?

>>2206623
>How did the Argies fare at the Falklands War?
I think their only decent moment was fucking up the HMS Sheffield with an Exocet, but they were pretty much outclassed in every single way.

>>2206623
They kind of sucked, every force fought their own war separately. Still they managed to inflict losses. Their airforce was decent.
Colombia, Ecuador and Brazil are pretty good at jungle warfare and COIN

>>2206175
Firstly the Ottoman districts were not designed to form viable nation-states. Indeed the Turks were just as interested in and ultimately responsible for crushing Middle-Eastern National Identities as the Europeans were/are. Secondly even after the colonial era was officially over the former colonial powers (as well as newcomers the Soviets and Americans) stuck around and supported Tyrants and their resultant tyranny through both Cold War shenanigans as well as need for that sweet sweet oil. Even now you have places like Saudi Arabia kept in power through foreign military aid. Many states in the Mid-East (and Africa with places like Nigeria) are kept in existence because foreign actors support corrupt regimes in exchange for access to resources.

>>2206650
I'm glad you acknowledged that the problems in the Middle East aren't merely
>muh white man

>>2203109
Great book. Really shows the decline in fighting prowess since independence even - which is a trend one would likely see in many armies all over the third world.

>>2206345
It was more of a stalemate than a victory, was not even remotely conventional, and Hezbollah is trained by Persians anyway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Rimon_20
>24 late model MiG-21s flown by Soviet air defense pilots vs 16 Israeli fighters
>engagement lasts 3 minutes
>Russians loose 5 jets with 4 pilots killed (including the Squadron CO) for 1 Israeli Mirage getting damaged
>"The Egyptians themselves reacted with ill-concealed delight at the outcome of the engagement. They had previously suffered intense criticism of their own performance and boasts of superior Soviet skills, when in fact the Soviets had fallen for tactics the Egyptians were already familiar with."

>>2202621
One of the biggest memes about Israel is that they were outnumbered. 1948 ended over a decade of Jewish insurgency in which they built and equipped the Haganah (~50,000) which were the jewish army backbone.

You can't add up 20,000 Syrians on one side, 20,000 Egyptians on the far opposite side, 5,000 British-trained shabbos goys in the Jordanian west bank, and a few Palestinian rabble to creat an overwhelming Arab army. There was very little coordination, unlike the homogeneous jewish host.

>>2207076
how did you come up with those numbers?

White people are extremely good at war. Arabs are not. Its that simple.

>inb4 go back to /pol/

>>2207683
Jews are white?

Good one

>>2207076
Except the role of the British officers was to prevent any serious Arab invasion, at least by the Jordanians over whom they had the most control.

>>2207689
Western knowledge, tactics and training.

>>2205750
In 48 the stated goal was to massacre those jews who did not escape. And in the first part of the war when arabs made ganes, all Israeli settlements and neighborhoods that were captured were cleansed and destroyed. In the second part of the war Jews went on the offencive and did the same to the arabs but cherrypiked villages and neighborhoods they deemed as less hostile and left them in place for both internal ideological and external political reasons.
The idea that the British would intervene is not very realistic since the Arab states had pro British monarchies and the Arab legion was even lead by British officers core including the commander of the army. Fucking with British plans for switching from direct to proxy rule over the meadeast was the main reason USSR and US allowed unofficial supply of weapons to the Israelis.
In 67 the stated goal was again to destroy the Israeli state and ethnically cleanse it. Not clear if the powers could have stopped it. But even if they did, Jews would be treated even worse than minorities are currently treated in the meadeast and would flee or get slowly massacred.
In 73 Israel already had nuclear weapons and regardless, just as USSR intervened to stop a full Israeli victory, US would probably do the same so it was not a zero sum game anymore.

>>2207724
That makes them white?

Black men in the US army must be white too

>>2207724
>white people training you makes you white
Is that some Jewish physics right here

>>2206205
>I wonder if Israel would fight back if the UN declared that the entire territory was now Palestine?
>They say that Palestinians were wrong for fighting against the same decision.
No, the Arabs (who did not self identify as Palestinians in 48) fought against a decision to particion the land with them getting the majority of it.
Btw, arab victory at 48 wouldn't result in a Palestinian state anyway. Egypt intended to take the south, Syria viewd Palestine as Northen Syria and Jordan (who actually achived their war aims and didn't loose at all) annexed the west bank.

>>2203673
>Israeli doctrine relies on air superiority
>US troops rely on air superiority as well

Pets really do look like their owners.

>>2206345
Arabs didn't win a single conventional war since the Reconquista.

>>2206345
You really need to twist the fuck out of the definition of victory to say hizballah won.
>150 kia vs 1000
>begging for a ceasefire until the UN imposes it
>war ends with Israeli troops occuping south Lebanon
That's called a stalemate with a western army not uprooting a guerilla organisation in a foreign country because there is no political will to occupy it. There was absolutely nothing Hizballah could do militarily to stop IDF from steamrolling to the Lebanon Syrian border except conducting a long insurgency with the hope of eroding support for a foreign war and counting on a western army not going into full Russian in Chechnia mode.

>>2207920
>>>/pol/

>>2202621
Iraq destroyed Iran in the Iran-Iraq war. Iran is literally 4 times the population of Iraq and had a bunch of advanced american weaponry from the Shah's army, they were the only Army in the world besides the UK that fielded the Chieftain tanks. Iraq had inferior soviet weaponry and a much smaller population.

Smaller countries usually get obliterated in long attrition wars, but in this war, Iran was on the retreat after 8 years in 1988 and was pushed out of Iraq whereas Iraq practically captured the whole Iranian tank force in tact.

Iranian casualties were like 1million to Iraq's 300,000.

Iraq's republican guard was actually very well trained and one of the best fighting forces in the region by the end of the war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Nasr

>>2207874
>>2207883
You literal retards. White people are excellent at war, meaning those that are trained by white people are going to be much better soldiers. Holy fucking shit you people are beyond stupid

>>2204931
You may have missed the part when France was fighting on the side of the afrcans, with commanders and even soldiers directly on the ground.
Also french threat made it impossible for the Libyans to use their full tech, because if they did France would just invade for real.

>>2206205
Trump would veto any anti-Israel decision, they are safe.

>>2203124
Arabs killing arabs is usually when you see some of the worst cases of incompetent retards

>>2203571
Don't lump them all on though, Jordan never wanted to fight the kikes, was pretty much forced into it, preformed pretty well even though they entirely half assed it, then they just carried on being one of the few more friendly nations to Israel
Jordan is a beacon to what Arab shitholes could be

>>2203620
Good post, missed a good point to mention the Russians getting furious at the Arabs (Egypt mainly iirc) for their losses and determination to attack Israel anyway

>>2207972
>they did well, for their size

Doesn't matter, size is part of war. Thats like saying "they did well, for their quality of troops".
Big population and solid economy are inherent advantages in war.

>>2205629
>Jordan is England's bitch
>Has a an a-rab monarchy
>Still has a westernised nation and military
Hnmm, it's almost as if you're wrong and that stupid oilniggers will always be stupid tribal oilniggers

>>2206623
Their conscripts got fucked in the ass every time they met nige who would proceed to stick em in the gut

>>2206623
Their biggest and most expensive prized boat was destroyed in international waters without declaration of war by the British, and the rest of the world pretended that this is okay.
Afterwards they had zero naval power projection and eventually lost the islands.

>>2207972
What the fuck are you on about, pretty sure Jordan has chieftains, and almost every major nation on the world was sending Iraq shit by the assload, and yet Saddam couldnt win because Arabs are stupid fucks

>>2203103
>Including culture in strategic assessments has a poor legacy, for it has often been spun from an ugly brew of ignorance, wishful thinking, and mythology. Thus, the U.S. army in the 1930s evaluated the Japanese national character as lacking originality and drew the unwarranted conclusion that the country would be permanently disadvantaged in technology.5 Hitler dismissed the United States as a mongrel society6 and consequently underestimated the impact of America's entry into the war. As these examples suggest, when culture is considered in calculating the relative strengths and weaknesses of opposing forces, it tends to lead to wild distortions, especially when it is a matter of understanding why states unprepared for war enter into combat flushed with confidence. The temptation is to impute cultural attributes to the enemy state that negate its superior numbers or weaponry. Or the opposite: to view the potential enemy through the prism of one's own cultural norms. American strategists assumed that the pain threshold of the North Vietnamese approximated their own and that the air bombardment of the North would bring it to its knees.7 Three days of aerial attacks were thought to be all the Serbs could withstand; in fact, seventy-eight days were needed.
>Racist

Seems like a pretty decent balance to me

>>2203914
>Where and how did things go so wrong, that it takes more than half a century to figure out borders between Palestine and Israel?

Things went wrong from the dawn of civilisation onwards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJBF3OqdEeE

>>2207588
I read a book about it. Wiki says about the same though.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War

>>2207722
That's why I called them shabbos goyim, the only trained Arab soldiers were Jordanian traitors.

>>2206623

Poor but your air force did about as best as it could, pretty brave attack runs to be honest. Wasnt your fault the french would fuck you over.

>>2202625
Beat me to it.

>>2202671
I'd guess the successes of the Caliphates boils down to Arabs fighting under the unified banner of Islam, as opposed to the artificial dictatorial nation-states they fight for these days.

In the present day, the jihadi groups (ISIS, Al Nusra, Hezbollah) are also the fiercest Arab fighting forces. Even in the Syrian War right now, Hezbollah's doing the majority of the heavy lifting these days with Assad's army being a shell of what it used to be. Likewise on the rebel side, the al Nusra Front's successes has forced many rebels to side with them.

With regards to Israel, everytime Israel has fought a war, it has fought to protect its existence, which gives them far greater resolve than the Arabs. Their superior technology and foreign aid also helps a lot.

>>2207972
The fuck? Iraq was funded by the US to the point where they were granted chemical weapons and a blind eye to their nuclear program.

>>2205689

Israel has a far more tightly knit national identity stemming back from the days of the kibbutz.

As the war dwindles down, would Hezbollah now be the best most combat hardened troops in the arab world?

Would they seek to restart conflict with Israel if they are allowed to withdraw?

>>2208253
It appears so. Even before the war they were arguably the most competent Arab fighting force. They now have 5 years worth of experience fighting in different terrains and conditions.

They wouldn't risk any conflict with Israel following the war, they've taken far too many losses. Syria is also far too weakened to support them in a full-fledged war. If anything, Israel would be eyeing up the opportunity to finish them off.

>>2202621
Obviously it's because Israel has the one true G-d on their side :0)

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>>2208253
>would Hezbollah now be the best most combat hardened troops in the arab world?
They already were. They are definitely stronger than before the war though.

>Would they seek to restart conflict with Israel if they are allowed to withdraw?
Hezbollah soldiers are constantly rotated back to lebanon, not sure what you mean by withdraw. There will be no major hezbollah aggression because Russia is paying Assad's bills and Putin wants Israel left alone.

>>2208284

Hezbollah is battle hardened but their reserves are spent. They even had to lower the age of enlistment to replace loses in Syria.

In the long term it provides them good experience in fighting a protracted war under different environments and in close support with allies and heavy weapons. But in the short term, they wouldnt be able to effectively fight another war so soon.

>>2208291
Except their forces have expanded dramatically during the war. 20,000 active and 8,000 deployed of about 40,000 total is not "all reserves spent."

>>2202621
there is a lot of propaganda about this flying around

I think the biggest factors were
1. isreal attacked first in "presumptive self defence"
this surprised a lot of arabs, but it should not have; the jews do not go to war to be right; they fight for greed and to win
these initial attacks by isreal guarenteed them ongoing air superiority, which has been the crucial factor in many of the the middle eastern wars that followed it

2. the US funneled an obscene amount of arms into isreal to de-stabilize the region, and because of the influence of american jews in prominent possitions

3. the arab co-alition against isreal was not strong enough, and the arab states were under too great a threat to deploy enough troops
at the start of the war the jews had almost three times as many men

the under-estimation of the jewish strength was partly due to the secret isreali preperations for war and western arms imports
the jews were planning on fighting as soon as they got land they could build on

4. the arabs allowed themselves to be diverted by a peace process
the jews have used peace deals historically as a means of fracturing the opposition against them, and stalling

>>2207921
Nejd and Hasa won a couple of wars. Hejaz won some. Saudi Arabia beat Jemen when they tried to invade. The Saudi's fought Iraq in the first gulf war (this one is a strech I know). They are winning in Yemen right now.

That's just the Arabian peninsula.

>>2208310

It sounds like you are the one who is swayed by propaganda and clearly racial biases to take responsibility for the failure of arab armies. The Arab stats also had a great deal of support from the Soviet Union and clear geographic and numerical advantages.

>>2208175
>and the rest of the world pretended that this is okay.
Maybe they shouldn't have invaded British islands then

>>2208310
Mixing between 7 different wars and adding some general pleb level opinions.
Thank you for your input.

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>>2203103

>>2208330
it seems like you are the one who is swayed by propaganda and clearly racial biases to exaggerate the achievements of Israel's army.
The arabs in 1948 did not have numerical superiority. A central position (what Israel had) is possibly the most important geographical advantage.

>>2208330
the issue for the arabs was that the jews were not their only enemy

the jews could deploy all their forces to hold onto the land they stole, but the arabs could not turn their full forces against the jews
arabs practice a differnt type of war, it is much less damaging to the parties that are involved
"total war" and "hedgmonic war" were learned by the jew
arabs practiced show-of-force conflicts, raiding-suing and mass conscription was not the same as it was by the jews
this was how the arabs were taken advantage of in a series of "peace deals", becase they are used to fighting till a settlement; where the jews fight-play dead-fight

I do not think the jewish forces were outnumbered on the ground generally

the soviets were full of jews, and were intially conned into supporting isreal in the hope it would be a socialist state
the soviets only changed this when it became clear the jews were flouting UN agreements

>>2208342
Two evils a good do not make.
Argentinian actions were condemned, and so should have been the British ones.

>>2208343
if it's not enough for you put more on the table
I'd like to learn more about it, that's why I'm here

>>2208346
>make inane statement
>get inane responses
>"wow i guess i was right all along"

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>>2208346

>>2208352

>lack of punctuation
>no capitals
>"the jew"
>we good boys, jews did all the bad stuff

There's one in every thread these days.

>>2208352
Do you notice a difference between the quality of your ''arguments'' and the others in this thread?
Well, that's exactly the point, most arabs are like you, with very primitivistic understanding of how things work, very emotional and prone to substitution of unpleasant facts with make believe to protect imaginary honor. Like children. I do not claim that all arabs are like you but those that are, usually just take advantage of their superiority over the unwashed gullible arab masses because it's so damn easy. Don't think it's a racial thing but you are somewhat remicent of middle age peasants in europe.

>>2208369
In 1948 the jewish deployments were objectively superior.

After 1948 the question becomes "why did Soviet proxies lose so many wars against American proxies?"
and
"why are Arab countries poor when Israel is rich?"

>>2208369
You can read the thread than instead of posting the first thing that comes into your mind and than ask specific questions.

>>2208379
lmao nigga do you notice a similarity between your post and the argument you're criticizing?

>>2208382

Israel was quick to adopt free market policies with a highly education populace geared towards diamond exportation, technology and weaponry. It's a highly diverse economy.

The Arabs... the reverse. No diverse economies and high protectionism.

>>2208368
Yeah anon, the international community of assholes condemning those people dying and drowning will change everything at is war, talk shit get hit

>>2208408
Sinking a ship in international waters without declaring war should be condemned, yes. Are you fucking retarded?

>>2208396
huh it's almost like Israelis were transplanted from the first world instead of dealing with chaos, famine, and power vacuum after 600 years of Turkish rule collapsed.

>>2208417
Through a message passed via the Swiss Embassy in Buenos Aires to the Argentine government nine days before the sinking, the UK made clear that it no longer considered the 200-mile (370 km) exclusion zone as the limit of its military action

If the argie bastards didn't want to get sunk they should have listened to our warning. Or, of course, not illegally invade British soil

GOTCHA

>>2208417
They were warned
They did not listen
They died
Simple as, that's just how it goes, doesn't have to be a international committee railing on about it, argies wanted a war, they got one

>>2208429
>China sends a telegram to Malaysia that it considers the South China Sea its own territory
>destroys anything that moves there

Its just and noble :) UN supports it :)

Anyway, read the rest of the wikipedia article you selectively quoted.
Be reasonable, instead of chauvinistic, when discussing such events.

>>2208463
Well, they wanted the Falklands at least, they asked for a war and got one rather

>>2208423

>excuses

>>2208465
And how many Chinese citizens are living peacefully and inhabiting the claimed bit of the south China sea? Is Malaysia constantly threating to 'take it back' despite never owning it

>>2208465
>>China sends a telegram to Malaysia that it considers the South China Sea its own territory
>>destroys anything that moves there
If America invaded Hainan then China would be right to sink every american ship in the South China Sea

>>2208470
not an argument.

Jews are better at business than Arabs, jews are actually shit at war.

>>2208423
>huh it's almost like Israelis were transplanted from the first world
European Israelis were refugees from ww2 Europe and the Holocaust and the other half refugees from muslim pogroms in mideast countries. The backbone leadership was zionist pioneers that cultivated the land under ottoman rule for more than half a century by that point.

>>2208480

they just seem to win every single time every Arab state around them invades.

Really makes you think.

>>2208556
>The backbone leadership was zionist pioneers that cultivated the land under ottoman rule for more than half a century by that point.

Arriving in 1890 doesn't make them, their methods or their leadership any less european. Ottoman rule was meaningless to the jews.

>>2208560
Defending a scrap of clay like palestine is easy. Also there is no arab power comparable militarily except their ally, saudi arabia.

Israel has never fought more powerful islamic nations like turkey and iran.

>>2208636
>powerful islamic nations like turkey
turkey is neither islamic nor powerful.

>>2208690
in millitary terms turkey is very powerful, their army is modern and about the 10th most powerful in the world (though measures vary)

turkey is also an islamic state, their society has been more secular at some points; but the islamic schools, churches and societies have always been very influencial

>>2208690

nigga turkey has the second largest military in NATO and global firepower has it as the 8th strongest power in the world

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>>2208724
>in millitary terms turkey is very powerful

they are trying to capture a few cities for months now with 10/1 ratio of casualty in the country which the united states was able to completely invade in a week.

>turkey is also an islamic state
no it is not. there is a big difference between muslim majority and the state being islamic. although we are getting at the latter direction, we are not there yet. you would have to call republic of france a christian state to call turkey vice versa.

>>2208749
>they are trying to capture a few cities
still more impressive than Gaza

>>2208749
I agree with the majority of your post but let's not pretend that France is not a lot more secular than turkey

>>2208776
>implying an order was ever given to capture gaza

>>2208749
I don't think you have an understanding on what is happening on the ground, and I doubt you understand military logistics at all

mosul is slow for a number of reasons, turkeys millitary power isn't one of them
realistically ISIS is just loosing resources fighting there, better to lock ISIS in a slow loosing battle in a combat zone than have them running around elsewhere

the city is full of mines and VBIED's; and what's more its full of civilians who ISIS won't let leave

however the main reason is pollitics
ISIS is less turkey problem than it is everyone elses, all the arab countries are reluctant to attack ISIS when someone else could do it

the co-alition also has forces in active hostility with each other, there is the risk that there will be actual combat between friendly forces
after the city is liberated, there will be another battle over who keeps it, it's going to be a real can of worms; and that's the enironment that germinated ISIS

turkey is majority muslim, the government has strong pro-islamic elements, there are still powerful religeous pollitical parties
the law is islamic (though not qu'ranic as I understand)
it is a fair point you make about where the line is drawn about secularism; but nonetheless I think it's safe to call turkey islamic
it's been getting more theocratic since attaturk left :^)

>>2208813

Not him but:

>and I doubt you understand military logistics at all


I suspect this is true for you as well, since NONE of the issues you listed in your post are logistical.

>>2207972
Considering how much the west helped Iraq and considering Iran's situation at the time, Iran won

>>2208813
turkey is not capturing mousul, they are capturing el-bab.

>the law is islamic

there is literally 0 percent truth in this. at all.

>>2208830
>turkey is not capturing mousul, they are capturing el-bab.
ah...I am mistaken, apologies

but I'm not going to let your taxim ass get away with saying turkey isn't islamic
turkey is as secular as it is european

>>2208636
>The backbone leadership was zionist pioneers that cultivated the land under ottoman rule for more than half a century by that point.

Arriving in 1890 doesn't make them, their methods or their leadership any less european. Ottoman rule was meaningless to the jews.

So you are ready to admit that your point that Jewish holocaust refugees coming from war torn Europe were somehow 1st world while arabs dealing with some terrible calamity (you mentioned starvation - please link a source to any starvation in the area) was not accurate?
Also the zionist pioneers were from russia which was at the time in a midst of a civil war. It's like coming from Syria.

>Defending a scrap of clay like palestine is easy.
What does that even mean? The place has no strategic depth and no natural barriers. It's difficult to defend.

>Also there is no arab power comparable militarily except their ally, saudi arabia.

Saudia Arabia fought against Israel in coalition of Egypt (the most populace arab state), Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Yemen, even Cuba, Morocco and Pakistan sent expeditionary forces in 48, 67 and 73.
>Israel has never fought more powerful islamic nations like turkey and iran.
They also didn't fought aliens. Your claim that those countries are the most powerful and would do better is just a patriotic assumption. there is no point in discussing it.

>>2208830
Recapturing it, after last time...

>>2208830
that's in Syria, not "a country the US conquered in (x) time" FWIW

>>2208876
>implying syrian and iraqis are not the same sandniggers. more the less, iraqis had a regular army back then.

>>2208843
sure.

>>2208849
Now you're making excuses. Jews were fleeing holocaust and Russian civil war, persecuted and in poverty. In reality the "refugees" were an invading army that maintained ideological, political, and commercial ties with motherlands Russia and western Europe.

>Saudia Arabia fought against Israel in coalition of Egypt
at which point they were not comparable militarily.

your other claims are patriotic assumptions that don't deserve to be addressed.

>>2208904
No, I'm juts pointing out that every "factual" statement you make can be proven as false by a 1 minute google search while you keep changing the subject and making other unsubstantiated claims.
You are just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point. You are either interested in that part of history/region or you are not. If you are you can actually read about it. And if you are not, why do you feel the need to comment in the first place?

>>2208958
But you're not claiming that Saudi Arabia in 1973 was a power comparable to Israel at that time, or that we really know what would happen if the modern armies of say Turkey and Israel went at it on some fantasy battlefield. (with or without nukes) What factual claim are you debunking? Israeli jews are European, not from the backward Ottoman provinces and they had european help.

>>2202671
Caliphates had a turkish army

>>2208969
I'm debunking the claim that Saudi Arabia never fought Israel when it did 3 times. You added the condition that it's supposed to happen at this very moment instead of admitting that you had no idea that it was part of the arab coalition
You also claimed that
>Israelis were transplanted from the first world instead of dealing with chaos, famine, and power vacuum after 600 years of Turkish rule collapsed
using this as a reason for their supposed advantage. I pointed out that they were actually coming from a very different, war ravaged Europe, (post ww2 and after a genocide) were actual starvation occurred and that half of them are from arab countries. While Arabs were leaving in relative peace at a place untouched by war or any starvation, totally to the contrary of your argument. At no point in time have I claimed that Israel is not a western country, you just moved the goal post.
You also made the claim that Israel is easy to defend when it's notorious for having no strategic depth.
Now your'e claiming that
>jews were fleeing holocaust and Russian civil war, persecuted and in poverty. In reality the "refugees" were an invading army that maintained ideological, political, and commercial ties with motherlands Russia and western Europe.
I can't even understand what this even means. Those are just buzzwords. Are you claiming that Jews were not refugees but an organized military horde like the mongols? This is really going nowhere.
Also, Discussing what would happen in some imaginary war with Turkey is pointless but arguments can be made that Turkeys military is technologically inferior, it buys Israeli equipment and not the other way around, uses M60/M48 that were decommissioned by the IDF 10 years ago, has internal problems with officer loyalty and unlike Israel has no record of taking on any serious military in the last 50 years. But this is really a pointless discussion, especially that the countries don't share a border. Yet.

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>>2202621

Clear the way for this old timer.

https://youtu.be/ree3Ru3gSOQ

>>2209029
I never said KSA never fought israel. I said they are an ally, which today they are.

I didn't claim that Europe is not ravaged by war or starvation then or now. However I will claim that world war 1 and the fall of the Ottoman system had more of an effect on the local Arabs than on Zionist migrants. Anyone who goes around arguing something like "Arabs are bad at warfare" should realize there is much more to being Jewish than the shitty town you came from. Their ability to develop economically was not due to some magical racial ability, but to culture and trade with Europe.

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>>2207972

>Iran had a bunch of advanced american weaponry

That they had no means of repairing or replacing. Having 50 F-14s means nothing if you have no knowledge on how to maintain them, and if you have no access to spare parts to repair them.

>Iraq had inferior soviet weaponry

Iraq was getting state of the art European weaponry starting from 1982, by 1975 they were fielding Mirage fighters that could easily go toe-to-toe with the F14s. Furthermore, they were getting them by the hundreds, while Iran had only a few dozen operational F14s (a number that was decreasing as the war went on).

Most importantly, they also had fucking chemical weapons, and the U.S. further helped them by giving them free access to their satellites, allowing them to see every single Iranian troop movement, as well as having easy targeting data for their chemical weapons.

>Iranian casualties were like 1million to Iraq's 300,000

The 1 million figure is the Iraqi claim, most neutral observers put Iranian deaths at half a million.

Pic related, Iran had no chance of actually winning the attrition war considering the arms embargo and international support for Iraq. In a war of attrition, the ability to resupply is key, and Iran had no ability to do so.

That being said, this war should have been won by the Iraqis within a year, considering that Iran had Syria-level stability at that point and were pretty much fighting a civil war against the Kurds and MEK when Saddam attacked. The fact that they were kicked out in less than 2 years and spent the remainder of the war fighting in their own territory shows just how inept Arab militaries are.

Also pic related, Iraq had a tank and artillery advantage from the very beginning of the war.

>>2209075
If you had written that from the start I wouldn't have argued with you because the way you frase this now is correct and I agree with you.

>>2209125
>Iran had Syrian level stability
Funny thing is that foreign invasions in a brink of civil war situations either break you or unite you.

>>2203571
>Kfirs
VERY cheeky israel. Bravo.

>>2209228
well the point was to say that particularly Arab nations rarely equal the expense, prestige, or advanced doctrine of IAF. Candidates are Egypt at its peak, arguably 1970s Syria, peak 1988 Iraq, and the dollar-rich Saudis of today.

The list above is not as imposing as Israel's characterization of her enemies. Adding inferior or treacherous partners to Arab "coalitions" has rarely done anything to improve on the capabilities of the leading states. Sadat's betrayal of Assad is one obvious example.

>>2209336

It's a false cognate. The Hebrew כְּפִיר means "lion cub", and while it sounds similar to כופר "heretic", (and probably drawing from a similar root in the Semitic linguistic tree to get the Arabic version), it doesn't actually have anything to do with it.

>>2208327
>they are winning in yemen right now
t. prince muhammad abdullah al-saudi

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>>2203103
angry kike spotted

>>2209977
not him.

it turned into an attrition war restricted in yemeni soil with complete saudi air superiority, that is not a lose.

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>>2203571
>>2203587
>mfw this post

If there's one thing the kikes are good for, it's cucking the retarded moon-worshippers in violently hilarious fashion

>>2204951
>No fair! He outsmarted me!
The Eternal Arab

>>2209350

JIDF detected.

>>2202671
>This makes me wonder though exactly what has changed in Arab culture since the military successes of the Caliphates.

Very little. They never got a new model because they are taught from birth that the old model is the only and best.

Heres a question, why are Houthis so GOOD at war?

>>2207921
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Alcazar
And this is just one from a long list

>>2211416
The only thing that Arabs are really organized enough to pull off is infantry combat.

Hence why dedicated infantry forces like IS, Hezbollah, and the Houthis can use less motivated conscript armies as chew toys.

>>2208135
Correct.

>>2208310
Goatfucker or just stupid eurotrash?

>>2211444
I thought Hezbollah had an armored segment.

>>2211582
I doubt they actually use it for shit.

IS captured a bunch of Abrams and Bradleys early in the war, but they couldn't do anything with them, because tanks require a legion of competent maintenance people to keep running.

The Saudis can afford to throw money at the problem until they have a few working tanks, but you need a competent officer corps and command structure to actually conduct combined arms offensives.

>>2211416
Houthi's are a citizen army of sorts facing off against conscripts kept in service by fear of punishment as opposed to any convictions regarding the conflict, fighting on territory that isn't theirs. Houthi's aren't necessarily "good" at war, they're just more suited to the conflicts that they've been pressed into than others in the region.
>>2211582
They got some out of Syria. If they had any armoured vehicles in 2006, they did not use them against Israel.
Folks like Hezbollah, lebanese folks, they know that the worst thing you can throw against the IDF is armoured vehicles. Maronite militia's, fine, they've got nothing so you can throw old T-34's at em and there's nothing they can do about it. The PLO really did. Turns out they weren't all that useful against F-15's and Merkava's, though. Anyone with armoured vehicles that were facing up against the IDF got chewed out.

>>2211595
And that's actually a strangely good reason to have complicated weapon systems as opposed to simple ones, even if it means actually handicapping oneself.

Because if you're in a place where folks might decide to fight the state in some form or another, they won't be able to use what they steal from government arsenals. By shortchanging yourself you shortchange dissidents.

>>2210009
They have air superiority, yet the war against the houthis has been a near stalemate for nearly a year. They have made some progress against AQAP tho.

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>>2205041

>Hamas wasnt exactly democratically elected to speak for the Palestinian people

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/26/AR2006012600372.html

>>2208379
Fantastic post.

You understand Arabs to a T

Everyone was against the
Arabs. and they helped Israel.. soo they had no chance of winning

>>2203103
>provides facts and evidence to support his point of view
>racist
Regressives in a nutshell

If Arabs are universally shit fighters, why are the Houthis able to hold their own against Saudi Arabia? Is it because they're trained by Iran?

>>2208556
Israel's politics is dominated by European Jews and was founded on European principles. It's far more European than Arab, just like Australia and New Zealand are far more European than Pacific.

>>2207921
Weren't they mostly Berbers with some Arab leadership?

>>2204947
yeah, turns out POGs really do perform a necessary and crucial function in every modern military.

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>>2211416
and Polisario Front too

>>2206623
The argentinian army actually had many of the problems that plague arab armies, including:

- lack of unit cohesion, notably the gulf between officers and enlisted men
- lack of coordination between branches, notably between the air force and the army
- poor, politically motivated leadership
- no thought given to logistics and supply

>>2206934
nobody likes the russians, and with good reason

>>2207921
they didn't win the Reconquista either

t. Portuguese living in conquered formerly muslim land

>>2208135
yep, pretty much

>>2208310
>t. Nasser

>>2203571
حذ!

>>2212024
The Soviet Union supported the Arab states and gave them tons of training, equipment and supplies.

>>2202671
>This makes me wonder though exactly what has changed in Arab culture since the military successes of the Caliphates.

>>2202975
egitimacy. Its hard to create a strong army in an unstable state that has to constantly police its own populace. Its also hard to put the state before tribal politics if the aforementioned state is just a meme created by foreigners drawing lines n the sand.

Here is my two cents: warfare and other cultures changed not the Arabs. Is the issues with the officer to enlisted man relationship and ineffective NCOs just a class divide the also troubled early 19th century European armies? I could give more examples but it really just comes down to the fact people around the Arabs got better at war.

>>2212638
How are these guys good at war? they had 3 sovereign nations helping them with money, equipment and troops yet still sucked

>>2203914
Israel belongs to the Jews. Sandniggers have tons of other places where they can go and fuck goats while Jews only have one homeland.

>what is Hezbollah

Arabs can be bretty gud at warfare, they just need to:

a) not be led by officers who got their positions thanks to nepotism
b) be religious enough to not fear death
c) use Western training manuals provided by the Iranians
d) actually want to fight for the organization they're under

Israel today is much weaker than they were in 1967 or 1973. If they suffer a few thousand dead in a war, they'd probably sue for peace or at least let the UN draft up a ceasefire and call it a "win".

>>2202621
Mu granpapa during the glory days of Yugoslavia went over to Iraq as a carpenter for the state owned company commisioned to build housing for factory workers. It was during the Iran-Iraq war.

I should add before citing him that he also fought in the Croatian and Bosnian wars (Yugoslav civil wars) in the '90s.

He said that the Iraqi regular infantryman was basically a retard. He said an ordinary Yugo without a training could beat him 1v1. He supposed it was due to the soldiers being mostly from poor rural areas, former shepards, uneducated and ignorant on top of being malnourished and sickly-looking. On ine occasion he said the soldier barely handled his weapon on guard duty, be it that it was too heavy for him or him being untrained to properly wield a firearm.

The stories he told me are incredible. It seems these people in the '80s were living in a basically stone age understanding of modernity.

I doubt other Arab countries were any better.

>>2213043
>Be religious enough to not fear death
Double edged sword, sure some ISIS guys don't give a fuck, but most still feel fear easy enough, and when everything comes down to if Allah wills it or not, then it starts causing easily solved problems that they don't fix because fuck it

>>2212937
they are good, they just lack manpower and air support

>>2213059
ISIS has the fanaticism part down, they just lack training and discipline. Although I doubt they're in a position to train troops what with all the combat they're going through. It's probably more of a Soviet-style meat grinder system where combat is the training.

>>2213066
How are they good? the only reason they still exist after a 40 year old ceasefire is because the nation harboring them is desperate for a puppet in the region
They're like the Palestine of Africa, only Palestine has "some" claim to the land

>>2212677
>>2211548
The Jordanians seem to have been one of the few groups to actually heed the teachings of the bongs, and due to that they ended up with a working command structure and a tight relationship that opened the doors to getting in with THE world power
If I'm not mistaken joint exercise and officers being sent to US and UK schools is very common in their armed forces

>>2213122
The King himself was trained at Sandhurst and served in a British Armoured Regiment.

>>2213155
>>2213122
>>2211548
>>2212677
>>2208135
t. j*rdanian IDF

>>2213166
actually, I'm Portuguese. I'm saying Jordan is the best of the Arab countries, not that it's good.

>>2213841
Tunisia > Morocco = Algeria = Lebanon > Jordan > Libya > Egypt = Syria > everything else

>>2213841
Yup
With the bongs teachings being heeded and not relying on oil for everything, with a few other factors no doubt has brought a modern Arab force that's actually semi competent, at least compared to its peers

>>2212198
>Is it because they're trained by Iran?

Partly, but it's mostly due to the fact that they're up against scared peasants stiffened by Pakistani and Colombian mercs.

Both groups are more interested in collecting a paycheck and running away from battle at the first sign of trouble than dying for the glory of Abdulaziz Al Saud.

>>2203673
>they use this one part of warfare that we suck at this makes us not as bad as we look grrrr
Is this what you Arabs believe?

>>2213877
You seem to have screw up a bit.

The first couple are okay, but it's

Egypt > Libya > Syria = Iraq = Somalia

File: the power of khat.jpg (94KB, 840x600px) Image search: [Google]

94KB, 840x600px

>>2202621
needs more tribal warfare

I ain't even kidding, just look at the fucking Houthis and how they BTFO state of the art US hardware while wearing sandals and high on khat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU7YJZaa3DI

>>2213043
>or at least let the UN draft up a ceasefire and call it a "win".
>implying the UN is even going to exist in any relevant way in a few years.

>>2203727
lel

>>2215338
so is khat literally Starcraft stimpacks?

File: 1402360390716.jpg (222KB, 655x646px) Image search: [Google]

222KB, 655x646px

>tfw Israel will be annihilated in your lifetime

Takbir brothers

>>2202625
>http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars

that was a fantastic read

>>2203591
>kuffir, the plane version

>>2203620
>>2203587
>>2203571

so, just like with general arab culture, arab warfare is stern to the point of being non-functioning, which makes everything it produces a half-assed, corrupt, thoughtless mess.