If the majority of Rome's citizens lived in abject filth

What?

>Dads walks in

I'm actually baffled by this question. I'm not sure what you're even asking.

Are you asking why cities have people in them?

>>2196963
why do most women have disgusting saggy bodies

>>2197000
>mummy why don't women in their mid 40s look like the teens in my BLACKED videos

t. virgin virginov

>>2196963
>what was the point of even keeping them around? Why have a city of a million people if the majority is on the brink of starvation?
Because you can't let those people starve or they'll rebel against you, and as long as those people are alive, you can't stop them from fucking and creating more people, who will also likely starve without aid. What's worse: poor people have higher birth rates.

This dilemma has plagued prosperous societies since the dawn of man. If a civilization has too many people compared to its economic output, those people won't have enough and will rebel. You can kick the can down the road by providing for their welfare, but once they breed and multiply, the problem expands exponentially - but if you try to stop those people from reproducing, or let them starve, they'll rebel anyway.

Basically, the trick to having a prosperous society is having a few profitable foreign wars every now and then to cull your extra young males, to have cheap and accessible entertainment, and to have new frontiers to expand into, and to maintain technological innovation so that continued economic growth can be assured, which means that (sustainable) population growth can be provided for.

Any civilization that fails one or more of these will have either a large population of poor, bored, able-bodied, fighting-age men ready to overthrow the government, or will be demographically anemic and lacking in population, and their economy will collapse.

TL:DR because those starving masses aren't a problem you can just "get rid of", especially not in Roman times. They had to "keep them around".

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>>2196963
P O T T E R Y
O
T
T
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R
Y

>>2197012
The modern version of this problem is the Demographic Trap: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_trap

>falling living standards reinforce the prevailing high fertility, which in turn reinforces the decline in living standards

>>2196982
That would not be problem.

Mom walked in during the scene with slave-dildo gift.

>>2196963
anyone else fapped to this scene

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>tfw the welfare state was more developed in the 2nd century than it now

We're supposed to go forwards not backwards

daily reminder that nudity is a sin

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>>2197038

>>2197012
>Basically, the trick to having a prosperous society is having a few profitable foreign wars every now and then

I think the assyrians got it right. They would campaign every single year without fail, even if no inmediate threat was around.

>>2197118
>>2197012
man, it's pretty sad to realize that culling of the human population is really important
we NEED wars between the great powers for population's sake.
damn.

>>2197324
Not entirely true. As our ability to produce has gotten better, and our overall efficiency has gone up, we have been able to support larger and larger populations. If that fails we can just try colonizing space.

>>2196963
>If the majority of China's citizens lived in abject filth and poverty and had to be given a grain dole to not starve to death, what was the point of even keeping them around? Why have a city of a million people if the majority is on the brink of starvation?
>Were the Chinese skeletons?

>>2197324
Well, not exactly. If you have a prosperous society under the right conditions like high literacy and a developed economy, birth rates will actually fall and you'll have the opposite problem. In fact, keeping population positive is more important than keeping it negative: if you have too many people then inevitably some will slip through the cracks and die, meaning the problem eventually fixes itself to some degree. But if you have too few people, there's nothing you can do about it except import more people.

Another thing: war isn't the only way to control pop growth. In the distant past e.g. Rome it may have been, but now we have public access to effective contraception, safe and effective abortion, better education, cheap and accessible entertainment, etc. which all bring down the birth rate. So much so that most developed countries are having the opposite problem of too low population growth. The US is the only developed country that DOESN'T have that problem, actually.

There's also the fact that a growing population is sustainable as long as economic/productive growth scales with it. For centuries this has more or less been the case, and there's little reason to believe that won't continue into the future... however, there are some reservations to that. For instance, what happens when we run out of frontiers on Earth to colonize - will space or oceanic colonization be as efficient in producing growth? Further, if natural resources are depleted or the climate is sufficiently changed that it delivers a shock to society, can continued growth still be guaranteed to scale with population? Remember, population increases exponentially, so it's crucial that production growth be high.

These sort of questions have led to the post-scarcity theory of economics which discusses a society where growth isn't required because population has leveled out. Many believe that such a society is the future. Personally, I think it's too optimistic.

>>2196963

Most Romans weren't poor until the long campaigns against Carthage and Macedon had land owning romans return to their farms in disrepair and poverty, being forced to sell them and move to the cities for easy life and accessible jobs.

Rome then began recruiting from these land-less men until they were no longer able to pay them with land as their expansion faltered. The legions were politically independent, disproportionately powerful and caused civil war and degradation of the roman institutions when they would not be paid.

Eventually they began to recruit foreigners and conquered peoples who were disloyal as the average Roman saw no gain from military service.

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>>2196963
Where is this puellae from?

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>>2197000
Most of the girls you see in porn are in their prime years (18-22). That's why a lot of them have tight and firm bodies. After that, their looks start deteriorating.

>>2197048
Abrahamicuck detected.

>>2197569
fedora fatass detected

>>2197528
Serio? Et tu considerans teipsum Romeboo.

>>2197037
more than once

>>2197587
Nudity is beauty. Only boring no-fun-allowed puritans think it's sinful.

>>2197037
I fapped to the scene when octavian fucked his sister.

you can't be a patrician without plebs to rule over

>>2197000
agree,men are much better desu

>>2197000

if you arent attracted to the op woman porn has warped you. try nofap

>>2197357
what of when our developed societies enter the accompanying population decline, while the undeveloped societies continue to grow? Does the world just slide backwards in progress?

>>2196963

Because Rome was the city that conquered the world. If they let the capital starve, it'd be a scandal.

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>>2196963
For political power. They were numerous enough to overwhelm any political force that ignored them. That's what the Optimates failed to understand when they lost the Civil War. Quantity has a quality of its own. Having a large group of people dependent on you gives you tremendous power that is rightfully understood.

The devil's catch though is that you have to take care of them. And this can get expensive.
The large urban masses that were the basis of Augustus became fucked during the Crisis of the Third Century, when the State couldn't afford to take care of them anymore. Combined with bloated pay from the Praetorian Guard, the strategy of gibs-for-votes is 'too good to work.'

Imagine business professionals fleeing Chicago because EBT no longer works and crime is spiraling out of control from starvation and poverty. Furthermore, imagine Free Trade collapsing because the currency collapses from money printing and financial instability. So on top of the rapid rise in crime which destroyed urban centers, you have the destabilization of the productive elements of the Empire disappearing from pisspoor financial management.

Perhaps the greatest weakness of Globalists is their failure to learn from Rome. They have the worst of both worlds; they are making the same mistakes of the Optimates and they are the making the same mistakes of the Populists. Of course, their outfits aren't necessarily meritocratic so they wouldn't actually be aware they are setting themselves up with bad precedents. And in this case, Western Governments can't afford to 'purchase' political power from the poor anymore. Which gets back to why Rome, and the Globalist order, keep its masses around.

>>2197324
No we don't.

First world birth rates are below replenishment rate. If anything we need for people to have more babies, not less. This is a problem squarely rooted int the time before medicine and air conditioning. Living conditions are high enough that even poor people don't have more than 3-4 children.

>>2197000
She's killer for a 40 year old.

>>2196963
She is so ooooo fuckin sexy. If I could get with any character from TV or movies...

>>2197569
jk btw

>>2197000
HIBERNIA
I
B
E
R
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I
A

>>2197929
same, part of me wanted to jerk off, the other half was pissed off that the guys who wrote the script would make up a story of Octavian fucking his sister.

Besides from that HBO Rome is amazing

>>2197025
That is what happened in pre-industrial India and China is it not?

>>2200317
Yes. It also nearly happened in China again before they implemented the one-child policy - but now they have the opposite problem thanks to that policy and the fact that they're no longer a developing economy, and have a coming demographic crunch where their working age population will be smaller than the population they have to support, kind of like in Japan or Europe.

>>2196963
>Were the Romans sjws?
>sjws
Stop forcing modern memes into ancient history.

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>>2197000

your gayness is forgiven beacuse of them delicious trips

>>2197929

>incest scene starts
>little sister bites lower lip

>>2197357
Japan is currently suffering this problem with half their population is over the age of 40 and up to a third of their young adults (18-25) having no interest in sex

>>2197037
Atia and Octavia were both hot as fuck.

>>2200366
You know the real Atia was described as a highly religious and moral woman, the ideal Roman matron so to speak. I often ponder how disgusted the real people would be if they could see how they're depicted 2000 years later.

Imagine in 2000 years someone implies you fucked your sister, and your mother was a whore.

>>2200373

True, but Atia was one of the best characters on the show. Plus, Atia's Rome character gave us more access to Marc Antony than a pious Atia would have.

>>2200364
>having no interest in sex

wat?

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>>2200384
Japanese NEET are on another level.

>>2200384
More like having no interest in socializing, doing the whole dance and going out to get sex. They still fap 5 times a day I reckon

>>2200373
Of course she was, not that Augustus controlled the state propaganda.

>>2200384

I own a house in Tokyo (I'm only 28). I have one cousin who lives in Tokyo full time, and his hours are nuts. He works for the largest bank in the country, his hours are 17+ a day for 6 days a week. Factor in commuting, and it's a bit easier to understand why they aren't fucking like rabbits.

Another thing to note is that once a couple has a child there, the wife almost always puts all energy into the kid, and encourage the husband to visit a sex shop. In Japan you can get anything up until full sex at sex parlors (even then you can find full sex).

>>2200377
True, I love the show.

>>2200392
I'm sure writings from decades, sometimes centuries after Augustus are more the result of oral tradition than his own propaganda.

>>2200373
I've always wondered what they'd think about Octavia and Aggripa fucking each other. I think that would piss Lil' Caesar off.

>>2200389
God tier choice

>>2197000
You're either gay, a pedophile or a virgin.

>>2198755
/thread

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>>2200377
>Dat final scene with Atia where she badmouths Livia and we all know she just signed her own death warrant.

>>2200418
I can't see why, Augustus let Agrippa marry his daughter, why would his sister be off-limits?

>>2200549
Which one of them just signed his death warrant?

>>2200585
Atia.

>>2200563
In the show they're fucking behind his back.

>>2200590
How did Atia die?

>>2200393
Why would you do that?

>>2200594
IRL she died of illness during Octavian's first consulship.

>>2200591
But it was Mark Anthony being cuckolded. And IIRC in the show Octavian wasn't even particularly salty about it, Agrippa admitted it the moment he was confronted and Octavian thanked him for his honesty.

In reality Augustus and Agrippa were great friends since early childhood anyway.

>>2196963
1. Those people are your supporters. They riot against the people that deny them rations, they riot for the people who hand out rations to them.

2. There are thousands of potential recruits in there, and many more breeders pumping out the next generations of recruits.

>>2200563
>Augustus let Agrippa marry his daughter

He didn't just "let" it happen, he went out of his way to make Agrippa divorce his earlier wife and marry Julia.

>>2197357
Developing societies haven't entered the declining birthrates phase. It's a matter of wether they do it soon enough or not.

>>2200323
a big problem this created as well is what they call in China the 4:2:1 which states that every soldier in the PLA is the sole breadwinner for 2 parents and 4 grandparents, so should there be a sustained conflict with many casualties the state would have to take on the responsibility of caring for these people or else they become destitute.

>>2200384
its more that they have no interest in children, no one can afford to have kids and there is a very severe glass ceiling for women attempting to return to the workforce after having a child, as a japanese woman you really have to chose between a career or a family. And since they have the highest cost of living in the world, its not really a choice at all.

>>2200600

Do what? Work insane hours? It's the Japanese work ethic. He says that even the top dogs at the company work those hours.

>>2200707
Jeez you guys fucked up. Work efficient rather than hard.

>>2200716

I know a woman who manages English teachers who come over. She always complains that they slack off at work and go home early to weeb out.

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>it's a the gods bring Caesar back to life to usurp the rule of Augustus episode

Season 3 of Rome got weird I think

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I fapped to this picture in my mind

No. Quite th opposite. Actually it was to buy votes and rise to power. By giving free panem et circenses, politicians could target a large number of adepts at once..Otherwise they had to buy clients one by one by making favors, usually lending money, and this was more expensive and didn't scale.

Grain and later bread was abundant since it was taxed to other provinces, mainly Egypt. Consider it a promotional gift.

>>2200652
Birth rates are falling in almost every nation on earth, just look at a fertility map of say, 1960, and then compare to today.

>>2200723
How does it work out though, Japans GDP per capita isn't that high compared to hours worked.

>>2196969
i dunno either

>>2200386
that bitch wasn't even remotely that attractive in the real video

>>2200822
A lot of workers tend not to work all that hard. Most of what they do is keeping up appearances by doing huge amounts of busywork.

>>2197012
This is all entirely true. But the problem often isn't so much economic output as how it is divided. Rome had terrible wealth inequality that makes Occupy Wall Street kiddos look like whiny babies. The Roman economy did not give the wealth of it's economy to anyone but the nobility, while in the West today we don't rebel because even with as bad as things have gotten there is still an amount of wealth spreading around. We won't see problems like Rome saw with rioting grain dole dependent Plebeians unless the top further hoards wealth and refuses to pay the taxes necessary to keep a functional and ascendant civilization running.

>>2200731
Fucking kek.

>>2200373
Part of the shows theme was about how people are different "behind the scenes". At had a public persona that was virtuous. But it was her side that wrote that history. Pullo and Vorenus likewise with their Rosencrantz and Guilenstern routine were to demonstrate how of course there little private choices and coincidences and actions of the common people that shape history, but because they were not of the class that their society considered "Important" they never get acknowledged for their actions in show and thus by history.

>>2203570
>he broke the show down into class-struggle garbage
You have spent too much time at college, friend.

Spend a little more time here and get rid of that Marxist historical perspective you picked up and come back to the classical romantic or great man historical perspective.

>>2200707
>>2200716
>>2200723
>>2203485
>>2200822
Have worked as teacher in korea and can confirm, same workplace culture (just don't EVER tell koreans that).

Staff sleep, shop online, natter loudly, etc. When they do work it's 60% teaching 40% mindless fucking bureaucracy ie. filling in forms on every students progress for ministry of education, another set for provincial, another set for national. They have a concept called 'desk-warming' which translates to 'stay at work doing nothing but looking like you're working to maintain honour.' Have entire concept of 'face-saving' also where they will directly lie, and kids are actually encouraged to make up excuses viz homework/etc as they are punished for saying 'I forgot.' Very fucking odd and enraging. You can see how it crushes individualism, particularly the dishonesty of it.

>>2203581
What the hell are you talking about? The fact little people mattered doesn't detract from Augustus' accomplishments, what did you think he single handily killed everyone on his proscription lists like some kind of Jedi Assassin?

>>2203600
You are so blinded by Marxist dialectics that you don't even know what I'm saying, do you?
Hush now child. We will save you if you would but swallow these red pills.

>>2203581
>Implying Marx wasn't spot fucking on that history is driven by the material conditions of the masses first and foremost.

Only idiots that don't believe in causality would think otherwise.

>>2198755
This guy is onto it. But what you haven't realised is that the next form is what Caesar did.

The great leaders of tomorrow will use private armies, of paid soldiers and police loyal to only him, to enforce his power. As the state goes bankrupt and becomes unable to fund social institutions, a wealthy man of genius will come in with the intention of setting up stability by force of arms.

>>2203611
The Marxist perspective is just a historical perspective. As such it becomes wrong when viewed through the lens of literally any other historical perspective. It is just a tool to study history, nothing more. Its implications should not be followed to degrees outside of this aim, to influence the next generations of historical scholars, or cause change in society.

People need to fucking understand this now more than ever in historical academia. Do not buy into one so deep that you are only able to see history through that perspective. It is just a tool to find truth, it is not truth in and of itself.

>>2203618
I was just razzing you man. The study of history is very much a lot like Nietzschean perspectivism, I know that.

Also my views are more Spinozaist than Marxist. While I think material determinism is a hugely important factor in driving history and society forward, the ideal still plays a role in altering outcomes.