Marxist commentator Matt Christian says the backbone of every

>implying muh glorious proletarian uprising in Russia wasn't fostered by middle class as people

>>2184551
Actually the backbone of every fascist movement have been the poor workers and peasants. Look at German elections for example - the average Hitler voter was poor, rural and protestant, while the urban middle classes voted for either conservatives or socialists.

>Marxist commentator
I guess I should've stopped reading there, senpai.

>>2184573
>Actually the backbone of every fascist movement have been the poor workers and peasants.
>of every
In the rural italy everyone was either a socialist or an anarchist(just like in spain), the backbone of italian fascism was in fact the middle class.

>>2184561
Yep. Pretty much no communist revolution or takeover is led by actual proletarians.

Marx - middle class
Engels - upper class
Lenin - middle class
Trotsky - middle class
Kun - middle class
Luxemburg - upper middle class
Liebknecht - middle class
Mao - upper middle class
Ho Chi Minh - middle class
Pol Pot - upper middle class
Castro brothers - upper class
Guevara - middle class
Fonseca - middle class
Chavez - middle class (even though he started fabricating stories about growing up in poverty)

etc

In the very odd chance there is a communist revolt led by actual peasants or workers, like Makhno in Ukraine, it gets quickly suppressed by the middle and upper class shitters listed above.

>>2184659
Mao wasn't upper middle class. He was a janitor for the University of Beijing. Much of his collaborators were upper and middle class though.

>>2184551
Who do you think moves the world after the elites?

>>2184693
>Mao Zedong was born on December 26, 1893 in Shaoshan village, Hunan Province, China.His father, Mao Yichang, was a formerly impoverished peasant who had become one of the wealthiest farmers in Shaoshan.

Mao's father was born into poverty, but Mao himself grew up rich.

>Marxist

No wonder hes a fucking idiot.

>>2184609
>just like in Spain
In Spain most of the rural countyside peasantry was extremely reactionary/conservative. Franco wouldn't have been able to win the civil war if he didn't have the majority of the proles on his side.

>>2184561
Small business owners universally despised the Bolsheviks, retard.

In pretty much every instance of class conflict, those who hold some capital (no matter how small an amount) side with the elites who are much wealthier than themselves over the masses who are slightly poorer than themselves.

>>2184551
>Marxist commentator


this is where you went wrong.

>>2184659

Is Stalin the only one who was actually from a poor family?

>>2185038
Why?

>>2184551
>to assert their way of life.

Yeah, I'm sure that being a Christian is in any way analogous to being a secular, National Socialist.

I mean, to the extent that these people turned to fascism is the extent to which they stopped being Christian in my mind.

>>2184573
The workers' parties (SPD and KPD) were relatively stable, it was the liberal parties that dramatically lost most of their supporters (petty bourgeoises basically) to the NSDAP. You're right about rural protestants, many of those switched from conservative right-wing parties (DNVP mostly) to the NSDAP. Rural catholics tended to stay loyal to their party (Centre party).

>>2184551
Pretty much, churchgoes and the like are quite literally nazis.

>>2184551

yes, its been explicitly true many times over

that is the basis of fascism, middle class people using force to keep things the way they want them

in 1920is italy it was literaly the guy who had 5 cows, getting together with the other 30 guys with 5+ cows near by, against the 300 ones with 1 cow each, squadristi, fasci di combattimento, ardity, all that stuff

mind you the ones with 1 cow or 0 cows were organising too, they just failed to put up a united front in 1920, if they did pull together italy could of been a communist country, or there would of been a civil war

>>2184659
Well yeah. Revolution breaks out when masses want to topple the government, and the job of the educated vanguard party is to lead revolutionary energy to the construction of a socialist state.

In Iran and in Syria this did not happen, and revolution was co-opted by Islamic extremists.

>>2184551
The leader of Comintern, Dimitrov, denied this. He said that Fascism the dictatorship of the most reactionary forces of bourgeoisie.
>>2184561
By the way, the entire middle class conception is not marxist, since the marxism defines classes by their relation to the means of production. You either own and rule them or you're not doing it and sell your working power for money to those who own them.
So, the middle class is, in fact, a bunch of social groups. The top one is the petite bourgeoisie - like the shopkeepers and the owners of small businesses. The others are the members of proletariat with above-average price for their labor.
Classes are not good or bad, they just exist in the current society, so it doesn't matter who supports the movement. Everything will happen on itself, the revolution will happen anyway.

>>2184561
Middle class individuals are often revolutionary, but the middle class -as a class- cannot be. Because smalltime capitalists are still capitalists, it's against their rational self interest to support the abolition of the old order.

But "middle class" is a meaningless phrase in a Marxist context. The working class, AKA the proletariat, means all wage laborers. The vast majority of Americans who identity as middle class are proletarian. Teachers, nurses, architects, journalists, IT guys, PR girls, web developers, and programmers are working class whether they like it or not.

>>2184551

ok let's take a crack at this, not really my area of knowledge but

>the most famous hitler
maybe lower middle class as a child, was abused, became a soldier, got gassed, lost war with no formal education, not really religious, possibly deist

>the eternal anglo
aristocrat, fought in first world war, i dont know his religion

>mussolini
working class family, heavily influenced by socialists like his dad, atheist

>fransisco franco
middle class military family, fought in rif war, was badly injured and might have lost a ball, catholic

I only know so much about the major fascists, gonna do some research on the nazi party itself and come back

but clearly Christian's sayings don't seem to hold water

>>2185177
Keep in mind that the huge investments in the Nazi Party were made by Krupp and Thyssen.

>>2185177
ok just briefly scanned nazi party page on wiki, dont expect anything for sure

>Depressed working-class areas such as Thuringia also produced a strong Nazi vote
>The Nazis' strongest appeal was to the lower middle-classes – farmers, public servants, teachers, small businessmen – who had suffered most from the inflation of the 1920s

meh not much info and too lazy to research more

>>2185207
>lower-middle class
That's understandable. They are afraid of loosing what they have and have the desire for growing higher, that's why they vote for those who would protect their businesses

>>2184551
Almost all regimes exist because of middle class support, just as most political leaders come from the middle and upper classes.

The poor dont have the education to command or organize themselves into politically effective groups

>>2185242
They don't have much free time to educate themselves in politics either

>>2184551
>Ideologues viewing other ideologues through their ideological lens

Fascism, which only existed in Italy between WW1 and the end of WW2, was a the backlash of angry male fighters who'd been in the trenches during ww1. They even called themselves a trenchocracy at points, and almost all their motifs and ideological points were inspired by their military exploits and experiences.

Trying to tack it to a class thing is completely ignoring the actual historical circumstances around the movement in order to sublimate it under a marxist ideology, and also quite likely an underhanded attempt to paint middle class religious people as fascists. Mussolini's appeasement towards the Catholic church was just that, appeasement, and quite necessary in a country that was almost overwhelmingly Catholic. The same could be said for Spain and Portugal, while, as far as I know, Peron and the Catholic church were actively opposed at points (but of course, no Marxist will admit to Peronism being fascist because they didn't have death camps and have recently been somewhat left wing, depending on the ideology I've seen his regime painted as an example of "positive nationalism" by the anglo-left and "the authoritarian despotism of a banana republic" (at least, something along those lines) by the bourgeois armchair 'economists' of the New York Times.

>>2185254
>fascism was a thing between WWI and WWII
>who is Pinochet
>who is Park Chung-hee
>who are the members of American-backed juntas in Southern America

>>2185254
Peronism is a sort of attempt to fit the unfitting things together. Like fascism was. It was relying on popular slogans and the support of high society. Like fascism. It was the rule of army men, who were sometimes messing with the interests of the church for the sake of the regime and status quo. Like many other fascist governments

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>>2184573
Nope, urban centers went for the social democrats and communists. Workers in German cities were very red prior to 1932. The NDSAP had planned to rely on the urban poor for their primary base of support, but left-wing parties were better at addressing these workers' needs.

Nazis won a plurality or majority among the suburban middle class and rural poor who feared the Jews, communists, and Jewish communists taking power in the cities. Germany's Catholic minority mostly voted for various Catholic parties, though many of these had a similar ideological bent to the Nazis.

http://www.johndclare.net/Weimar6_Geary.htm

>>2185268
Not fascists

>>2185320
And Black colonels of Greece?

>>2184551
Nope. Middle class isn't the ultimate driving force representatives of the illlumifags that they are painted to be.

The truth is instead that the middle class has invaluable importance a sort of means of communication between the classes.
Since neithet the elitists nor the worker class enters contact with one another, only the support of the middle class allows them to effectively support/oppose one another.
Think of the Middle classes as a wild card: Without their support, a peasant revolution would lead to a bunch of ragtag revolutionaires wandering the countrysides until they collapse of exhaustion or lack of supplies or just completely lose their momentum.
Likewise an elitist revolution would be left powerless without the manpower and workforce, not to mention soldiers to bolster their ranks, to administer the "new" country.

>>2185057
Stalin wasn't a revolutionary. But you're right that he and his cronies formed a "proletarian bloc" within the early USSR. In fact, his poor background was part of his claim to legitimacy. He criticized his enemies for being too educated, too urban, too idealistic, too Jewish.

Stalin actually seemed like a very rational pick to lead the Soviet Union among those who didn't know him personally. Only his close associates realized what a ruthless psycho he was.

>>2185096
Religious identities are often more about group membership and signalling than theology

What's a Marxist commentator?

>>2185406
You're obviously right, but that's more about the general hivemind of a human than the fault of religion.

I mean, I don't get how you can square the Sermon on the Mount with Fascism in any way, shape or form, for example, and I'm not even a Christian.

>>2184659
I'm gonna tell you a secret. Revolutions have almost always been about the middle class taking over and becoming the next upper class.

>>2185132
I guess you could say... the 19% work with the 1% to fuck over the 80%?

>>2184712
this.
same thing in Portugal.
Commies here fucking hated northern proles who where incredibly conservative and religious.

>>2185167
This. The "middle class" is a liberal conception that says very little about one's relation to capitol.

>>2185214
That just affirms Christman's point in the OP, no?

>>2185430
Yes, the bourgeoisie. The original meaning of the word - urban middle class. Those are the ones always fucking shit up. Marx even successfully tried redifining the word to mean a class that owns production means, probably to conceal the fact he was bourgeoise himself.

But make no mistake, all these bloody revolutions from the English civil war through the French revolution and all the communist ones are almost always orchestrated by the same group of people and almost never the working class.

>>2185167
>architects, journalists, IT guys, PR girls, web developers, and programmers
anyone of these that work on their own, and own a computer free of debt effectively owns his means of production.
He cannot, therefore, be working class.
Anyone who is not under wage labour, and that goes from your Hedge Fund Manager to your mom&pops corner shop owner is not working class either.

>>2185477

thats pretty much what fascism wants to be, rxcept the 1% end up fucking everione over one way or the other

>>2185167
>using Marxist definition of class
Get the fuck out.

Marxist commentators usually consider any political movement backed by middle class religious people to be fascist, so there you have it.

>>2185534

strangely enough they are usualy not that wrong

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>>2185534
This.

>Does private property exist?
>Is it authoritarian?
>THEN IT'S FASCISM!

This is the train of thought of Marxist """intellectuals""" so why should we even bother

>>2185551

but thats true, most fascist regimes were authoritarian systems the purpose of which was to maintain and protect private capital and enforce class cooperation

>>2185576
If it's not corporatist it's not fascism, simple as that.

>>2185584

thats what i said

>>2185584
Fascism has become shorthand for nationalistic autocracy, whether or not is accurately reflects fascism.

>>2184551
Middle class religious people tend to vote conservative, unless their life is bad enough to warrant drastic change (i.e. Great Depression Germany, though the NSDAP managed to attract voters from every demographic besides Catholics [muh Zentrum] and Jews) not for radical militarist and revolutionary movements like actual fascists - any use/evaluation of "fascist" by a Marxist should be taken with a grain of salt, and is often fecal

>>2185551
>Rexism
>Peronism
>National Socialism

literal meme ideologies

Falangism was a derivative of corporatism, like Italian Fascism

>>2185584
unfortunately corporatism has been maligned to equal corporatocracy in every respect. hell I never encounter the latter without getting called the former

>>2185507
>>2185477
yes of course, we all remember the notoriously anti-worker fascist rhetoric about 8-hour work days, minimum wage, and worker representation

>>2185534
>Marxist commentators usually consider any political movement backed by middle class religious people to be fascist, so there you have it.

And why does this surprise you? Marxist literally have a religious mania about private property. It's literally their Lucifer.

>>2185551
Rexism, National Socialism, and Falangism were forms of fascism.
This meme's heart is in the right place, but it's ruined by the rage faces, huge watermark, and confusion regarding what fascism is.

>>2185250
Hence why 90% of communist theoreticians come from privileged backgrounds.

>>2185504
You'll be hard pressed to find anybody who does any of those things full-time independently. Nearly all of them sell their labor to a larger firm.

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>>2185650
>meme ideologies

Nothing memetic about it compared to the autism spectrum of anarcho-anything.

>>2184659
desu the working class wouldn't really know how to carry out a revolution

>>2186235
As evidenced by how commie countries turned out, the middle class is no less dumb.

>>2186220

>anarchism happens
>no central authority to enforce any particular an-ism over any other
>every subsection of society spontaneously adopt the an-ism that best correlates to its mode of living
>longterm civil war unsustainable because no central authority to maintain the effort
>together the conflicting strains of an-isms form a attenuated equilibrium, each complementing or compensating for the faults of the others in some way
>actual pluralist utopia is achieved

then forein forces invade with nato/russian backing, of course

>>2184659
It's hilarious watching commiefags do logical acrobatics about why bourgeious scions really know what's best for the working class
>"Hey, it's not their fault prole scum couldn't afford to spend their days reading and debating Capital!"

>>2186254
Well there is no working class revolutions to compare to anyway

>>2186265
Yeah, commies are first like "the workers know what's best for them" and then do a 180 and claim tge workers are retarded cattle who need to be led.

>>2184659
Proletarian is just someone who has to go sell his labour, so even people like famous actors and pop stars are considered proletarians according to Marx.

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>>2186265
>it is another right winger doesn't know what bourgeious is

>>2186272
so what happens when an actor also owns a business?
is this like a marxist gattai

>>2186272
Like some other anon mentioned, a peasant owning a small dairy farm with a few hired helpers is bourgeois or petit bourgeois while a multi millionaire CEO is a prole. Marx was just a retard and his meme ideology has no practical application orher than fucking shit up.

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>>2186274
>"It doesn't matter how many times revolutions lead by avowed Marxists ultimately fail, since they didn't achieve TRUE [communism/socialism] obviously there is nothing whatsoever to learn from their failure, they were just fucking morons idk"

So itt Fascism care about Proletariat more than Communism

>>2186274
See >>2185496

Marx quite literally redefined a coherently defined word because otherwise it would include him personally.

>>2186288
yes

Funnily enough the working class experienced the highest amount of social mobility under the Nazis. Many Gauleiters came from extremely poor backgrounds and achieved higher education and income then their fathers ever did.

>>2185496
>But make no mistake, all these bloody revolutions from the English civil war through the French revolution and all the communist ones are almost always orchestrated by the same group of people and almost never the working class.

Have you read Turchin's Secular Cycles? He makes a pretty convincing argument that a lot of "social revolutions" were more about the overproduction of elites than anything else (something like ~70% of the Russian Nihilist movement had either noble or merchant parents)

>>2186254
People say this shit, but with the exception of Cambodia every communist revolution left the nation substantially better than it had been prior.

>>2186289
So? Would you prefer he come up with a new label? He needed a term to explain one's relationship to capital

>>2186305
Famines in Russia between 1800 and 1917: 2
Famines in Russia between 1917 and 1940: 7

>substantially better

>>2186305
is that why the hungarians had another revolution a decade after to get rid of the commies

>>2186307
I'm pointing out the guy used tge word bourgeois in its original, correct meaning and you chimped out because he wasn't using the Marxian definition, because that's the only one you feel is acceptable. Typical Marxist autism on display.

>>2184551
>Marxist commentator

Into the trash it goes

>>2186305
Well East Germany and Czechoslovakia didn't becone communist through a popular revolution, but communists fucked them up raw.

>>2186305
>but with the exception of Cambodia every communist revolution left the nation substantially better than it had been prior.

Given how life was in those countries before the revolution practically anything would've been a substantive improvement

But I think anyone who lived through Mao's Great Famine would argue that it was for the best

>>2186322
would argue that it wasn't* for the best

>>2186311
No he clearly using it in Marxist terms, he didn't even linked to that post

>>2185057
He trained and studied for priesthood, before washing out

>>2185177
>Hitler
>lowe middle class
He was born into an upper middle class family. His dad was a customs official and was loaded. His mother raised him like a mama's boy.
Before the war Hitler spent his years in Vienna like a slacker, living off his parents' free bux.

Hitler literally lived like a spoiled hipster artist who never made it to arts school.
This whole "Hitler was poor and his dad was abusive" is a fabricated myth to gain popularity among the lower class people.

>>2186310
No, they rebelled because they thought the Soviet Union wasn't communist enough. 1956 was literally led by Left Communists like Gyory Lukacs.

>>2186381
Hitler did live like a poor man however in Vienna. A neet who didn't finish high school became Führer.

>>2184573
>Look at German elections for example - the average Hitler voter was poor, rural and protestant, while the urban middle classes voted for either conservatives or socialists.
German workers voted SPD or KPD

>>2186305
>>>/leftypol/

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>>2186381
>This whole "Hitler was poor and his dad was abusive" is a fabricated myth to gain popularity among the lower class people.

Except he did his best to hide the period of his life before WW1 from the public.

>>2186385
All of this was false

>>2186381
>customs official
>loaded
Jesus Christ stop shilling this hard

That would explain why the ehm, globalists want to destroy the middle class and christianity so hard

>>2185551
Feudalism is a term literally coined by Marx, retard.

>>2186881
Adam Smith did you faggot

>>2186823
Well he did leave him enough money to laze about Vienna for years...How many government employees can do the same these days?

>>2184659
Proletariat can be "middle class", as long as they don't own means of production.

>>2184561
The russian revolution was led by a bunch of cosmopolitan intellectuals but the mass support came from the peasants. Russia wasn't developed or urbanised enough to have things like workers or a middle class and the already well off people stood to lose the most in the uprising.

>>2186308
Reading that made my morning. Nice.

>>2184551

The backbone of every national socialist or regular movement has been the working class?

>>2186898
He didn't leave him shit, he was living on orphan benefits. You know something that is pretty common in 1st world countries.

>>2186305
mhm, no hun, you are wrong
educate yourself before speaking out in a cultural discussion
also, this >>2186308

>>2186772
Literally nope.

Hardline socialist land reform was the main revolutionary demand along with an end to Soviet domination. They wanted to replace the state capitalist system with more directly public ownership of business and land. Remember that labor unions and students were the primary revolutionary organs. The 1956 revolution was led by committed Marxists.

After they toppled the Soviet-aligned regime, the revolutionaries appointed hardline communists (most of them early LeftComs) to the new government. If they opposed communism, they would have chosen non-communists. And when the revolutionaries revoked bans on many political parties in Hungary, all parties that explicitly opposed communism remained illegal.

1956 was as much a communist revolution as 1917.

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>>2186883
Adam Smith was basically a proto Marxist t b h

>>2184712
>Franco wouldn't have been able to win the civil war
Any unified front could've won that war against the fuckstupid commies and anarchists