>god is all knowing >therefore he already knows what you're

>>2182216
>I can chose between drinking water or coffee
>No one is forcing me either water or coffee
>I'm free to chose whatever I want
>So I picked both water and coffee
Wow really hard to prove free will exist huh?
If that's not free will I don't know what is

>>2182228

You're not omniscient you stupid cunt.

>>2182216
>watching a man walking down the street
>he drops his phone
>"Next, the man is going to pick up his phone"
>He picks up his phone
>LOLOLOL NO FERE WLILZ I CONTROLL U

>>2182246

Are you god? Did you KNOW, before you even created the universe, what the man would do, or did you just guess?

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>>2182270
I am not God any more than you are; that is to say; No. I contain part of his essence and the Holy Spirit though.

God knows all things because he knows all circumstances, situations, laws and reasons. He knew your parents would have you, but did he force them to? No.

He knows you shitpost on chinese cartoon basins, but he does not force you to. You choose to, of your own will. He knows the circumstances you were brought up in, the options available to you, how you feel, what you fear, what you want, among everything else. From this, he just knows what you will do in the situations you find yourself in. He doesn't control you, but he knows you.

Similarly, if a man drops his phone, we both know he'll pick it up. It's not that we control him and he has no will, but that we just know given the context what he will do.

God has every context.

>>2182216

if you have knowledge of something it doesn't mean you determine it

i know that the sun will rise tomorrow but i've got nothing to do with it

>>2182316
It would if you created the sun. Not op, but I actually agree with his point. When God made Adam and Eve he knew their genes, who their children would marry. What they would do and who they would marry. All the way through history, God would have known every individual and their proclivities. He effectively chose our lives for us at the moment of creation, since h knew what the consequences of creation would be, and he created everything the way he did anyway

>>2182216
IF god is all-knowing, which is simply something somebody told you.

I know better than listening to the fans of some dead guy possesed by a jewish totem.

>>2182538
>Knowing what you will probably do =/= making your choices for you

Wise up.

>>2182552
What do you suggest?

>>2182216
For all of you saying that God doesn't choose what people do even though he creates them knowing their destiny: Does he just rolle dice and create Hitler, then a random person, then Napoleon or some shit? He chooses to create you knowing what you'll do. That's not free will.

>>2182658
He DOES know what you'll do, not just probably . If he doesn't he's not omniscient.

>>2182291
So...free will doesnt exist because again everything we will do has already happened in His eyes (or from 4th dimension stand point)?

Like, free will is just an illusion? The man was always going to pick up that phone because he was always going to drop it because the context that it happened in was always going to occur?

Is it free will? Or is it just constant revelation of the greater divine plan?

>>2183470
Not him, but the way I see it, from God's point of view, there is no free will because everything is already laid out in front of him. To us, however, as we exist in a lower plane, there is free will as we perceive it.

So it really all boils down to what dimension you are viewing things in.

>>2182246
>forgetting the part where he creates everything

>>2182658

1: Most people are just told by someone that god is omnipotent and they choose to believe it.

To be honest, omnipotence is one of the most believable attributes of god; but I doubt more than a handful of persons in the earth have had a divine, supernaturally compelling revelation of god's omnipotence.

2:Omnipotence doesn't entail truthfuless

3:An omnipotent being can very well choose not to exercise its power.

3: Excusing the terminology, god the father starts out as the tribal god of the House of Noah.

4: Worldly deeds of JC are at least decent, but the great majority of priestly continuations pervert his message and default to old-testament tier bullshit

>>2183470
>>2183645

See point 3 above

That god CAN foresee our actions doesn't necessarily mean that it CHOOSES to.

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If God is all knowing then God's idea of you must be perfect image of you, down to exact position anbd momentum of the smallest particle. If Gods idea of yourself is as compelx as yourself, then God's idea of yourself must have soul and in fact would be morally indisiguishable from you.

Now let's take it to the next level, since God is supposed to be all knowing, then the idea of eveything that exists must have exact image in his mind. God exists. God is all knowing and thus knows himself. Therefore God must have exact image of himself in his mind.

As you can see, the notion that God is literally all knowing is clearly bullshit as it leads to both pantheism and polytheism at the same time.

>>2184114

I think things like the soul or consciousness are a fragment from an all powerful creator. Matter itself is just frozen light and light as we know it comes from God.

>>2184152

You're not contradicting that anon in the slightest

>>2184043
If you know everything, then you are aware of every single consequence of your actions. If you can do anything, and you know what the outcome will be, then the outcome must be set in stone from the very beginning, or else you don't know everything. If the outcome is already determined, then the possibility of other outcomes is zero, and therefore there is no choice.

It's only free will if there is a possibility of something else happening, which in the case of the omnipotent, omniscient god, there isn't.

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>Free will is a myth
>God knows who's going to sin
>God willingly made people that he knew were ultimately going to end up in hell
What the fuck kind of religion is Christianity/Islam

>>2184158

The difference I pointed out is that we are fragments. God is ALL. We are infinitesimally less then our creator who is the Infinite in all aspects.

>>2182216

>God is all powerful
>gives you free will
>also knows what you are going to do and have already done
>it's unironically still actual free will, because God is literally omnipotent and can do absolutely anything

ez

>>2184114
>If God is all knowing then God's idea of you must be perfect image of you

MUST
U
S
T

you don't get to tell literally God what he is and is not allowed to do

>>2184343
If God is above logic, there is no point in theological debatesa nd we should all just blindly follow the scripture!

>>2184348
>If God is above logic, there is no point in theological debates

the debate is settled.

>follow the scripture

why? It does not follow.

>>2184212

What I am saying is that omnipotence trumps omniscience

>>2184853
Omnipotence includes omniscience. I'm not sure what your argument is anyway.

>>2182216
Joke's on you I'm one of the Elect.

>>2182216
Are you the same fag creating all these r/atheist threads or is reddit migrating?

>>2184918

The fact that you can always look at your feet, does it entail that you always choose to do so?

>>2184212
He knows what you can do, can't do, won't do, want to do, have done, will do, are able to do - and you still very much have free will.

If there was a superhuman superintelligent mutant, and he read some files on your life, and you met him in a room, and he had great sense of smell and intuition, and you told him a brief outline of your day beforehand: he could probably tell you exactly how you feel, how the conversation will go, what you'll talk about, and so on.

Because he knows what you might talk about, does not mean you have no choice. If you change the parameter, and make it so that the man knew EVERYTHING and was omnipotent enough to process it (because the man was actually God), it still doesn't remove choice. At all.

>>2184114
>As you can see, the notion that God is literally all knowing is clearly bullshit as it leads to both pantheism and polytheism at the same time.

How is God knowing Himself polytheistic?

>>2185388
Not him but let me try and explain it.

If God always knows what you will do, then that must mean what you will do is defined in advance of you actually doing it. Otherwise, he could not know, because it would be logically impossible. In other words, there is only one set future - otherwise, the future couldn't be known. This means that you only have the illusion of choice, because anything you do or say or think is already determined ahead of time, as part of that preset future.

It might feel like you're making the choice to talk about those things in your scenario, but really you were inevitably going to talk about them anyway, there was no other option, because there must only be one set future, because it was already known you would talk about those things.

>god is all knowing
But have you considered that god doesn't a give a shit about what you're having for breakfast you egoistic cretin ?

To think that He who made the stars and the infinite would care about that is to misunderstand the glory of god

>can God move an unmovable object?
>tfw the object is free will

>>2185984
This guy gets what I was saying.

Also, if it's even possible to know everything, then free choice doesn't exist. So even if god chose not to know everything, the fact that it was possible eliminates choice. You could even argue that god doesn't have a choice, but we're getting into weird levels of hypothetical there.

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>>2184226
A retarded one. Either you're dualistic, non-theist or pagan, who doesn't think the gods are omnipotent, religious person or you've never actually thought about what illogical nonsense you believe.

>>2186799
What if God's definition of time was different? So for God your birth and death would happen at the same time. God knows what you will do, but he does not make your decisions

>>2182216
Jup, determinism and predestination are incompatible with free will. But even is you don't believe in those things free will is still a spook. If you say that the future is not 100 determined due to quantum uncertainty, then your future is still determined by outside events, and there's no justification for considering yourself an independent agent capable of choice.

>>2186849

SAUCE

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>>2186849
>pagan

>>2182216

I never got this meme

You either presuppose free will, or you don't, but either way some notion of divinity or Godliness existing isn't really refuted at all.

God can know everything under the condition of free will or metaphysical libertarianism, etc etc. He could know of everything extant and established, as well as all that could be. What is and what might be both adhere to common ontological constraints

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>>2188984
> mono(a)theist

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>>2182216
We already have this thread:
>>2187814

Even without God, from a materialist perspective, your actions are already predetermined.

Yet free will is still a thing, as it still exists from the perspective of the person making the choice. He can't predict the permutations of his decisions, past or present, flawlessly, nor really comprehend every circumstance that led to them through the nigh infinite chain of events leading back to beginning of time. Even if he is aware of this, and believes in predeterminism, he's still shackled with free will due to these limitations.

Predeterminism doesn't preclude free will, except maybe for God himself, since he's all knowing, thus he knows what you're going to do, and what he's going to do.

However... He's also omnipotent, and a lot of Christian religions resolve this paradox by simply saying that the way God "grants you free will" is by denying Himself the knowledge of knowing what you are going to do. And, with God in the picture, the materialist model of determinism goes out the window, because, well, magic exists, thus the causal chain of determinism can be broken or altered by God at any time.

>>2182228
But the decision of choosing both rather than one or the other could already have been predetermined

>>2184114
why do the most idiotic posters use smug imagery?

>>2184341
lmao

he's right though