Is there A SINGLE FUCKING THING this guy did right? I'm

>>2148421
>Why did they tolerate this living disease as long as they did?
Because the single fucking thing he got right was being ruthless enough to ensure everyone was terrified of him, and paranoid of each other.

>>2148427
There has to be more than that. I refuse to beleive the entire party was a bunch of spineless cucks too afraid of death to assasinate him.

Wages and their value were relatively stable in the Stalin years. Despite collectivization, agriculture more or less stabilized for him in the post war years.
>>2148440
Among the rank and file and soviet citizens, the purges were actually pretty popular.
It of course wasn't nice to be on the receiving end, but if you and your mates didn't like a guy because he was the laziest labourer in the mine and grumbled too much about his party duties it was pretty easy to denounce him. I mean, I don't fancy the idea of having people offed for being mildly annoying, but hey the past is a foreign country, they do things differently.

>>2148440
>I refuse to beleive the entire party was a bunch of spineless cucks too afraid of death to assasinate him.
It's been happening in North Korea for decades.

>>2148421
He did everything right. The thing is that he's remembered for his worst deeds and the misinterpretation of the good ones

>>2148421
He knew when to back off and let his generals run the war without his meddling.

He's literally one of the most successful bourgeois heads of state.

20th century equivalent of a Peter the Great or Napoleon - except not an incompetent moron whose empire fell apart in his lifetime (i.e. Napoleon)

>>2148421
>Why did they tolerate this living disease as long as they did?

they're russians, their history has always been like this... since the dawn of times.

He was really good at killing people who wanted to take his job

>>2148549
Most u.s. presidents are only upper middle class.

>Industrialized the USSR in just 20 years unlike the Tsars who couldn't achieve that in over a century
>Unlike Hitler, he didn't interfere with his generals during WW2
>Towns all over the USSR had powerplants and new factories meant more jobs
And much, much more
He ascended to power in a weak, backwards country and turned it into an industrial powerhouse.

>>2148549
Napoleon and Hitler fell victim to Globalism where a bunch of other powers gang up on one guy to take them down, also stupidity, invading Russia.

Stalin only avoided this, because Europe was in no shape to try to take down Russia, and because once it theoretically could, Russia had Nukes.

>>2148568
Also, Napoleon like Hitler was garbage at the whole diplomacy thing. Should have listened to Talleyrand.

That said Hitler is a remarkably mediocre leader in comparison to Napoleon - were it not for his genocidal policies he'd be about as remembered in the popular consciousness as Kaiser Wilhelm.

>>2148568
>Hitler fell victim to Globalism
>Antagonizes several other nations
>doesn't expect them to get pissed

Autism is the Germanic curse.

>>2148586
I didn't say they didn't have it coming, but neither Hitler or Napoleon seemed to realize that it was no longer the day of Charlemagne, and that you couldn't just create new Empires anymore.

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>>2148568
>Napoleon and Hitler fell victim to Globalism
>were it not for his genocidal policies he'd be about as remembered in the popular consciousness as Kaiser Wilhelm

>>2148599
Two different posts, apparently

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>>2148568
>Napoleon and Hitler fell victim to Globalism

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>>2148605
>>2148599
Well, they did

In the sense that they got the world to unite against them

>>2148612
Alliance networks aren't globalism. They've existed since the dawn of man. That's like saying the Assyrians fell victim to Globalism when 10 tribes decided to tear them a new asshole.

>>2148617
Napoleon and Hitler were different, as they involved very foreign endeavors, counting the Naval Battles, rather than immediate neighbors.

Stalin was probably the most evil man to ever live. Hitler at least got followers by doing some good things for his people. Stalin ruled entirely though fear


Even most of lefty pol hates the guy and his fans

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found the eternal fascist.

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>>2148632
Stalin also sort of weaseled his way into the top.

Not that Trotsky would have been any better.

>When you unironically see Trotsky quotes placed on Campus

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>>2148635
Also

>when you invade Poland just like Hitler did but no one really seems to care for some reason

>>2148653
They used Poland as an excuse to start war with Germany, because it was growing too powerful, and it was clear they weren't going stop at Poland or comply with sanctions set out against invading Poland.

Nobody gave a toss about the Sovereignty of Poland.

Jokes on them, once Europe falls to Islam, the Slav will be able to take over once and for all.

>>2148632
>Burger education
Stalin was incredibly popular with the common folk (and across the left internationally) right up until his death.

The shift towards "Stalin is satan" came with Khrushchev's secret speech which was used to justify changes in Soviet policy.

>>2148421
>I want to execute people holocaust style... lets freeze them to death and enforce cannibalizm instead of just executing them

And this is supposed to be a bad thing how? Working your undesirables to death is far more economic than wasting valuable resources in gassing them.

>>2148690
>Stalin was incredibly popular with the common folk (and across the left internationally) right up until his death.

Because of propaganda and the fact that they had no actual what uncle joe was doing.

>>2148800
>Because of propaganda and the fact that they had no actual what uncle joe was doing
Nah, it had more to do with the GPW.

>>2148800
Nah, there was just enormous improvements in literally all fields of Russian society.

He's your typical great man modernizer who even after decades of Russia trying to demonize him is still held in high regard by large chunks of the populace.

Not to say "Stalin dindu nuffin" of course it's just that the burger narrative of Stalin being Satan is completely at odds with the opinions of those who lived under him and the idea that Hitler was better to his people is fucking insane.

>>2148822
Hitler still has massive support among old farts in Germany and Austria, that doesn't make him a good leader.

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>>2148632
Pol Pot edges him out on that I think. Stalin at least you can say he industrialized the Soviet Union. All Pol Pot gave Cambodia was empty cities and most of its population dead.
>>2148690
>>2148800
For the soviet masses you had absolutely no choice in worshipping Stalin until he died considering you'd get shipped to a gulag otherwise, so I'm not sure how we can truly rate his domestic popularity. As for internationally the true depths of crazy shit Stalin was pulling didn't come out until Khrushchev's secret speech. Until then he was supported thanks to misguided tribalism for the only socialist state, Soviet control of the tankies of the international Communist parties, and the fact the USSR was part of the Allies during WW2.

>>2148800
>and across the left internationally
There's a book on this topic somewhere, on leftist intellectuals studying russia while their counterparts were being imprisoned and censored

>>2148462
>Wages and their value were relatively stable in the Stalin years.
How do you know this? Soviet Union literally made up all their statistics. For example

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Soviet_Union#/media/File:Graph_of_Soviet_National_Income_Growth.png

lol mustache daddy was based af.

OP's holodomor bullshit belongs on /pol/.

>>2148935
>Holodomor
>Bullshit
THEFUCK you mean

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>>2148937
Only Neonazis believe in the Holodomor, because it was orchestrated by Jews, and Jews would never do something like that.

Have you noticed that every vowel in Holodomor is O? That can't be coincidental.

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>>2148941
>Australia
>Canada
>Neonazi
O wiat I forgot

>>2148567
>He ascended to power in a weak, backwards country and turned it into an industrial powerhouse.

When will this meme die?

yeah but kulaks tho
t. tankie

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>>2148421
Stopped meddling in the war once the 1942 spring offensive failed.

>>2148949
Are you implying it is not true?

>>2148786
what about forcing them at gunpoint to try and live on an island with no food or shelter during winter and no items, 6,000 people at a time.

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>>2149148
> Russian Empire
> weak, backwards country

>>2149178
>fleet size shows how advanced a country is
Most of those ships were built in France or in the British empire

>>2149270
Yeah... Like Stalin industry was build by americans.

>>2149283
>Like Stalin industry was build by americans
What? Are you talking about land-lease?

>>2148421
>everything yugoslavia
You mean nothing?

>>2149292
Don't marshal plan desu senpai

>>2149178
Someone please post that greentext about the Russian fleet moving from the Baltic to the Pacific.

>>2148421
>we are being nvaded and our nation has been ravaged by war? Sounds like a good time to genocide hundreds of thousands of people
Are you talking about Holodomor? He didn't really need to care about the lives of farmers to stay in power, the backbone of his powerbase was urban, you know, like factory workers and such.
>I want to execute people holocaust style... lets freeze them to death and enforce cannibalizm instead of just executing them
If you mean the gulags, we now know from the records most of them left those places alive.
>genocided jews because why the fuck not
He may have been anti-semitic personally, but it's not like he targeted people based on ethnicity.
>genocide communists and socialists because fuck you
There were divisions within the politburo. He effectively destroyed his opposition. That said, there weren't enough politicians and bureaucrats for the process to be called a "genocide".

>>2149359
>but it's not like he targeted people based on ethnicity.

Yes he did

>>2149301
>Don't marshal plan desu senpai
huh?

>>2148421
>He fell for the propaganda.

Kek, brainlets.

>>2149378
I stand corrected. So, besides moving people around, he did prosecute jewish intelectuals I see.

And he also bought into the "international jewry" conspiracy.

>>2149407
You say it like it's not real

>>2148895
According to J Arch Getty large chunks of the Secret speech are total b.s. Or if you want to go full dindu according to Grover Furr everything in it is b.s.

Stalin is perhaps one of the worst historical figures to attempt to have a nuanced discussion about.

His rule is simply too politicized and anything outside the narrative of "evil genocidal maniac who stumbled into power and irrationally murdered everyone" is dismissed as being too sympathetic. Worse is the fact that anyone can make any baseless claim and people are completely inclined to believe provided it matches up with the "Hitler 2.0" narrative.

Speaking of which, in academic discussions, even Hitler is entitled to greater nuance.

>>2148421
>the korean air war fuckups
The Korean War was fucking brilliant though, because every major combatant, including the U.S. Thought he was their best friend in the commie bloc.

>>2148567
>Muh Industrialization, muh backwards tsar

Literally bullshit. In fact, one of the drivers of German belligerence at the start of the first world war is that Russia was rapidly modernizing. The high command was estimating that 1914 was Germany's last chance to impose hegemony on Eastern and Central Europe. If they waited as long as 1918, Russia would have transitioned to a fully industrialized nation with a modern military; an existential threat to the encircled Germans

>>2150405
He was a terrible person and as a ruler killed tens of millions of his own people. His country was much stronger after his rule than before it, but thats more in spite of Stalin and not because of him.

>>2148421
>>genocided jews because why the fuck not
>>genocide communists and socialists because fuck you

Those

>>2150519
But he also spread communism and took over half of Europe

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>>2148671

>>2148567
>Unlike Hitler, he didn't interfere with his generals
Jesus, this "Hitler was militarily incompetent and his generals would've won without him" meme truly is the most retarded meme of all.

It's always used by people who know jack shit about WW2 but want to sound learned.

>>2150501
Great meme.

Khrushchev's rule is probably what signified the beginning of the end desu.

>>2150576
If stalin was in charge instead of khrushchev during the cuban missle crisis, world war 3 would have happened

>>2150583
You assume the cuban missile crisis would have happened under Stalin. Any small number of variables could have created a completely different set of circumstances.

Engaging in "what ifs" is probably one of the stupidest ways to study history. There are no "what ifs" we can only analyze what actually happened.

>>2148462
>but hey the past is a foreign country, they do things differently.
not really. the idea of the rule of law existed back then without fear of arbitrary arrest. the bolsheviks were coercive because they chose to rule that way

>>2150554
you mean deluded Wehr/OKWaboos

>>2150851
The bolsheviks did not choose to rule that way. They explicitly made people afraid of arbritrary arrest.

>>2148421
What a load of bullshit propoganda

Also, a guy cut in line in front of me at the grocery store, am I a victim of genocide now? The term's use on this board is becoming looser and looser. The only genocide that the USSR can be even accused of is the Holodomor and even that doesn't qualify to the majority of historians.

>>2150909
>deport the entire country of Chechnya to Siberia
>not an act of genocide
>completely destroy the Sudetenland
>not a genocide

>>2150405
Are you implying that an "evil genocidal maniac who stumbled into power and irrationally murdered everyone" is not an accurate description of him?

>>2148421
Won WW2?

>>2151065
He didn't stumble into that shit, he murdered his way into power like a proper Russian.

>>2150909
>and even that doesn't qualify to the majority of historians.
Source?

I thought he had/has a lot of fans in Russia because he industrialized Russia and made it into a superpower, when before it was a backwards feudal society

>>2151098
He has them for sure.

>>2150499
>rapidly
Low base effect.

>>2151096
Not him but in academic studies of the Soviet Union there is a debate as to what happened in Ukraine can constitute "genocide".

In popular consciousness Holodmor is treated as an explici genocide i.e. in this narrative the soviets consciously worked to starve the Ukrainians.

In academic studies the idea that it was orchestrated is generally rejected and is instead seen as a product of natural famine and negligence/mismanagement by the Soviets. The debate is then as to how much of it was avoidable and whether this can constitute genocide.

Following the genocide train of logic then similar events such as the Irish potato famine and the 1940s famine in India could be seen as acts of genocide caused by the British. Truth be told "genocide" has become more of a political tool than an academic term.

>>2151122
Yeah, but a source?

>>2150948
Yeah, forced relocation is not genocide. Its a human rights violation, but not a genocide you dumbshit

>>2151141
>attempt to eliminate an ethnicity
>not the definition of genocide

>>2151135
You want the source for a debate that rages in academia?

Look up stuff by J. Arch Getty and his debates with Robert Conquest.

>>2151152
No, I want a source for this
>that doesn't qualify to the majority of historians.

>>2151096
I've read a lot of history books on Russia and had 3 college courses on it. All of which talked about the incident, none of which suggested that it was by any means intentional or a genocide. Which is not to say I havent read sources that support that it was. Its a debated subject, thats why it doesnt qualify.

>>2151152
For reference if anyone's interested in the history of the Soviet Union and wants non-partisan Cold War style analysis I'd recommend reading J. Arch Getty, Sarah Davies and James Harris.

>>2151154
Oh, well that wasn't me. I can't say I know the what the majority of Soviet historians say.

Truth be told most books on Soviet history (in the West at least) play to the totalitarian empire narrative simply because it sells more books. The higher up the academic chain you go the more nuanced it gets.

>>2151154
You'd have to learn russian to understand all this. Post-soviet community of historians is self-sufficient, not many of them have a passion to be published in "Annales", that's why they don't write many english articles

>>2151141
Nearly half of the total Chechen population have died as a result of deportation. NKVD set a deliberately harsh conditions for Chechens, which makes the deportation fall under the legal definition of genocide.

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>>2151203
So, they should have been left untouched even after they have supported nazis and after many chechens deserting from the army/avoiding the conscription?

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>>2151219
>the entire ethnic group should have been genocided because some of its members have supported the Nazis

Yeah, those tens of thousands of children that have starved to death on the road to Siberia totally deserved it!

>>2151203
>NKVD set a deliberately harsh conditions for Chechens
Nah, the conditions were just harsh in of themselves.

It was WWII. The Nazis were invading and destroying everything. People truly underestimate the hell that was the eastern front.

>>2148440
They were Not thats a myth
Whend the german army was at the gates of moskow some oficials came to stalins villa to ask him for orders (to retreat or to stay in moskow) Stalin later wrote in his diarys he though the officials came to his house to execute him

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>>2151141
>forced relocation is not genocide

Andrew Jackson spotted. Dead historical figures aren't allowed on 4chan, reported.

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>>2151260
>One million Soviet soldiers were BTFO while Army Group North encircled Leningrad
>Siege of Leningrad was so bad and impenetrable that 600,000 civilians die, and many resort to cannibalism
>400,000 more civilians die during the evacuations
>NKVD then arrests and kills a few thousand civilians who had to resort to cannibalism

>>2151274
Wait, doesn't the fact that they didn't arrest and execute him prove that they indeed were a bunch of spineless cucks?

>>2150554
Like all memes it is founded in truth. Hitler's meddling caused catastrophe for the Wehrmacht on numerous occasions. Especially at Stalingrad where his stubborn insistance on the capture of the city led to the complete destruction of the 6th Army and the partial destruction of most supporting units.
And his fears of an Allied invasion through the Balkans both delayed Kursk and diverted numerous divisions and dozens of planes away from Sicily. His demand for his panzers to attack the Allies at Normandy well after they had achieved local superiority caused them to be surrounded and the entire army sent to France was routed with terrible losses and almost complete losses to equipment at the Falaise Pocket.
His "Fortress" order was either ignored or led to the encirclement and destruction of any unit that attempted to follow it.

Don't get me wrong, Germany was fucked with or without Hitler, but Hitler screwed the pooch on numerous occasions. Usually by ignoring his generals and listening to Goering instead, or even choking on some of Goebbels' propaganda.
Dude was a soldier, not a general.

>>2151288
nice regurgitated myths

try reading a fucking book on the subject instead of cruising youtube videos

>>2151293
You really proved me wrong with your strong use of reason and facts.

>>2151293
>hey i know you're on the way to moscow but i changed my mind lol
>a few months later
>hey i changed my mind go attack moscow in the fall season lmao

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>>2151257
>tens of thousands of children
Do you have any data to prove that?

>>2151141
>t. Ahmed Turkroach

>>2151305
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aardakh

>Some 40% to 50% of the deportees were children.[19]
>The NKVD, supplying the Russian perspective, gives the statistic of 144,704 people killed in 1944–48 alone (death rate of 23.5% per all groups), though this is dismissed by many authors such as Tony Wood, John Dunlop, Moshe Gammer and others as a significant understatement.[23] Estimates for deaths of the Chechens alone (excluding the NKVD figures), range from about 170,000 to 200,000,[1][2][3][4] thus ranging from over a third of the total Chechen population to nearly half being killed in those 4 years alone

>>2151257
When you read about children fighting against german troops in the partisan squads, the deserters (especially those who stick to their tribal organisation) are looking even more pathetic.

>>2151293
Nothing he said was a meme, all of that happened, unlike >>2151299 which is a meme. Army Group Center drove south to engage and destroy a half million strong mechanized division that the Germans didn't know was still there.
That happened a lot, the Germans greatly underestimated the manpower both the Soviets had and could yet raise. Had they driven on to Moscow it likely would have ended up like Stalingrad did two years later. Shifting the army south was an example of Hitler listening to his generals who were telling him the army was a thread.
Stalingrad was him ignoring his generals. Twice over, actually. They just wanted to raid and destroy the city, then continue driving south and not even attempt to hold it. Hitler decided it should be captured. Then he insisted upon it when the Soviet counterattack bogged down the army and left them extremely vulnerable to encirclement, despite his generals largely begging for a full retreat, due in part to the disastrous supply situation.
Had it not been for Goering assuring Hitler the 6th Army could be supplied by air he likely still would have ordered the retreat, but Goering was all "Yeah man we can supply 100,000 tons of supplies daily with 50 tons of aircraft, trust me bro"

>>2151339
>Dunlop, John B. (1998). Russia confronts Chechnya: roots of a separatist conflict. Cambridge University Press.
It's not data. It's some historian's asspull.
>though this is dismissed by many authors such as Tony Wood, John Dunlop, Moshe Gammer and others as a significant understatement.
Again, the best historical source or evidence is the document, written, so to say, for inner use. And I don't see any attemts to support the point of view, only "DA SOVIETS ARE LIARS THEY HIDE THE NUMBAHS'

>>2151277
kek
but seriously, the trail of tears isnt what constitutes the genocide of the natives. Its the entire expantion, biological warfare, and cultural domination. The trail of tears was a human rights violation, but I dont think it qualifies as genocide by itself.

>>2151385
>Its the entire expantion, biological warfare, and cultural domination

Yeah, and all of it involved forced relocation!

>buying into the smallpox blankets meme

>>2151368
Even if the NKVD hasn't understated the number of deaths, that still means that at least 145,000 Chechens have been killed by the NKVD.

>>2151069
This.

>>2151415
They could have participated in the war as partisans. They could have stayed in the army. They could get to work on some facility. Instead of that they either decided to support Hitler or support nobody. They're all guilty, since chechens recognise themselves not as a part of state, but as a part of their tribal-like community.
And that teip structure was another obstacle for federal troops in the 90s.

>>2148421
He made people scared of him, he was good at that.

>>2151466
>justifying genocide

Tankies are indistinguishable from /pol/tards at this point

>>2151118
Also applies to the Communists. And Japan, and Argentina, and modern China, and every other economic "miracle" illiterate idiots like to point at to push an ideology

>>2151480
>you can't argue - mark them with a label
Like a clockwork. Just add some memes with it.

>>2151509
>justifies genocide carried out by a communist regime
>implies that he is not a tankie

>>2148421
Russians cannot live their lives without an almighty father figure telling them exactly what to do. When IVAN THE TERRIBLE abandoned the throne and retired to a monastery the russians begged him to come back, he told them he would only do it if he was given complete and absolute power to do as he wished and they agreed.

>>2151518
I'm not from an english-speaking country, I don't know who tankies are.
And you clearly don't know how to deal with tribals placing their community over their status of citisens.
>>2151531
And you are just a faggot.

>>2151531
In Russia, we have a saying: "The more Russians you kill, the more they love you". This is why in Russia, Gorbachev is the most unpopular Soviet leader while Stalin is the most popular.

>>2151557
Tankies are people that justify atrocities carried out by communist regimes.

>>2151577
More like "In russian information space". Since this saying never goes out of the liberal resources.

>>2151466
>chechens recognise themselves not as a part of state, but as a part of their tribal-like community

You would be surprised, but not all members of a specific ethnic group share the same opinion. Also, genocide and collective punishment are wrong, who could have though?

>>2151635
*thought

>>2151557
>Tankies
>English speaking

People who supported USSR military intervention in Czechoslovakia in '68 are now exclusively english speaking. Just brilliant.

How much is Putin paying you to disregard your own history?

>>2151635
>not all members of a specific ethnic group share the same opinion.
Then why didn't they stood against their own relatives, if they don't agree?
>>2151651
>I don't like someone's point of view
>Let me add some of my own thoughts and call him a paid agent!
>everyone I don't like is a paid agent of the bloody regime
Is there any worth of keeping this conversation going?

>>2151671
If you didn't know, 40,000 Chechens fought in the Red Army

>>2151671
>be wrong
>get proven wrong
>whine like a babby

Modern Russians are numales.

>>2151697
I'm talking about those who stayed in Chechnya. They could cooperate with NKVD, show where the nazi agents are hiding. Shouldn't this be a duty of every civilian during a military conflict?
I'm sure that if one american would found a group of suspicious people hiding at his neighbor's house, he would inform the police at once.

>>2148421
>Is there A SINGLE FUCKING THING this guy did right?
Yeah, he killed a bunch of Russians.

>>2148560
lmaaoooooooo

>>2151395
Idk if you know this but forced relocation and genocide are two different things

>>2148462
funny thing is, if they were lazy or annoying they basically were forced to do manual labor in depressing and lifespan shortening conditions, which is exactly what happened in america to the lowest class of factory workers.

>>2150897
thats what i mean. they chose to rule through fear even though alternatives existed. you can argue they needed an authoritarian regime to push an industrialization drive and ward off capitalist interference, but that just means they valued economic growth over a stable legal order.

>implying he did anything wrong
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpNaV2Usxlc

>>2151122
Nigga Stalin commited roughly 19 types of genocide.

I'll just leave this here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Operation_of_the_NKVD_(1937%E2%80%9338)