/his/, why don't you support the independence of glorious

>>2055936
Communism today is more like fascism. State capitalism, nationalism, traditionalist values, statism, Uncle Joe really ended it as a Jewish program for the destruction of nations and turned it into the force that made China into the sole world superpower.

>>2055936
I support it.

I just dont have time to deal with the ramifications, or contribute much other than that.

Because I don't like Tibet.

They're a bunch of religious goat-fuckers and I could literally not care less that the Han are oppressing them.

>>2055936
they are retard religious, who could suppot the independence of one people like this?

Reminder than "independent" Tibet was a feudal shithole that had about 850.000 slaves and a life expectancy of 30 years
Reminder than chinese are only 5% of the total population of 4 million

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>>2055988
>>2056002
Why? I thought you guys love slavery

>>2056027
>arm
That's clearly a hand.

>>2056020
Sauce?

>>2056027
I don't love the slavery, but i hate the ideal of create countries per se what will fall in anarchy, under China's rule the Tibet could be civilized and in the future be a economic prosper region

>>2056076
You are making it seem like they can't do it alone?

>>2056033
Not him but literary any source on pre-invasion Tibet.Read the references on wikipedia or something

Didn't China own Tibet for a long fucking time?

>>2056083
Probably no. Tibet alone without the subsidy of the Chinese central planning can barely provide enough food for itself. Also keep in mind that the average altitude there is above 4000 meters. It's hard for outsiders (eg, me) to maintain 30 minutes of locomotion without suffocating themselves.
At best some Tibetan Pinochet would rise and make Tibet a raw material exporting shithole.

>>2056100
managed their defense, foreign relations and other stuff

>>2056089
>Wikipedia
The article doesn't even give a shit about neutrality and remove the "controversy" from the title

>>2056100
No, they only have a "de jure" control over the Tibet after the Ming Dinasty and only control "de facto" the region after the WW2

>>2056083
You think they can? be honest, Tibet only existed in order to be a buffer state within the British Raj and China, they are no more needed in the world

>>2056102
China is already extracting raw resources from Tibet, the profit goes to the Han chinese and the government ofcourse.

>>2056158
The natives actually gain shit tons of money from tourism and selling shitty local medicines like this. But since they (at least the (sub)urban Tibetans) (and Hui Muslims) can support their living with non industrial like the oilnggers, they won't even bother to transform their industry to something mor durable like manufacturing (it's indeed impractical to set up factories there though). Plus as most Tibetans admit, they have no concept of "saving" and love to spend all their wage the first day they receive it.

>>2056100
The Mongols took control of Tibet since the Khans, then the Khans became Tibetan Buddhists. Mongols them lost control over their Empire. The China that got freed from Mongols wanted to maintain a friendly relationship between the Tibet-China and Mongol-China because if China fucked with Tibet, the mongols would come and attack China once more. Although mongols were not as powerful as they once were, they could still wreck havoc for China's borders.

The Chinese also protected Tibet in return for their patronage. The Qing then came and wanted Tibet (as the Qing China also had some Tibetan Buddhist followers/devouts as well (protip: apparently Tibetan Buddhism was a hot thing back in the days)). The Qing interfering with Tibetan affairs started around 18th century. The Qing also did their "final solution" of removing the mongol/Tibet ties by implementing an ethnic genocide on the Buddhist Oirats.

Then the Qing danced around Tibet till until the end of 19th century. By then the Qing were losing badly, and Tibet had already become independent in all but name. Once Qing fell, Tibet was de facto independent, atleast until the 1940s/50s when the Communist won and exerted control over Tibet through force.

>>2056158
Actually the main reason Tibet is relatively pacified compared to the 50's-80's is because about 60% of the workforce is in the government.

Tibet is a huge drain on China's public budget. Many Chinese disdain them for acting like beggars, while loving them for their buddhism and stoicism.

>>2056273

Isn't the Chinese government shipping in Chinese people to Tibet?

>>2056273
The Chinese have always disdained non-Chinese as barbarians. Thats not new.

Even Mao noted this phenomena as "Han Chauvinism" and wanted it gone.

>>2056294
Building railroads and roads, mainly for economic purposes. Roads for resource extractions, migrants, and most importantly for war.

>>2056155
Just like a fucktin of nation's.

>>2056294
Mostly voluntary desu. Those folks might have the highest concentration of communist spirit in modern China.
Also don't forget the thing that post Mao China exonerated the aristocrats and theocrats who survived persecutions and re installed them back to their old exploitory position, but with commie party membership this time. Simply exoneration can't pacify all the grudge of the aristocrats and theocrats and now the peasant are feeling betrayed.

>>2056298
What's different than the racism in the west is that the Han Chinese do appreciate the "barbarians" who got educated in their ways.

>>2056342
In the west, its called "honorary white"

>>2055936
>why don't you support the independence of glorious Tibet?
Because I feel Lhamo Dondrub is about as trustworthy as the Chinese government.

>>2056342
Westerners do that as well.

Hence why the Japanese have always been pretty popular among white racists.

>>2056367
What has the "lhamo dondrub" done that's comparable to the worst of the communist.

>>2056376
>always
No, they change. Depending on local/federal politics.

>>2056382
Cutting off slaves arms and make their skins into home decorations.
Aztec/10 desu

>>2056076
>The Yellow man's Burdern
Does this mean that Britian should retake Honk Kong?

>>2056308
And that's wrong because...?

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Not even the most justified independence movement in China

>>2056409
Nice, but he was only what 15 when Tibet was fighting China?

So he probably didn't have any part in the "slavery" part.

>>2056440
Never said there was anything wrong with it, just pointing out the functions of CCP development through Tibet.

>>2056363
This

>>2056382
>comparable to the worst of the communist
Did I say that?
I said that I'm suspicious about his intentions as I am about the Communists. He sought CIA training for his armies. The Dorje Shugden controversy is (was) a clusterfuck. He's losing grip on the very school he leads. He seems to want to hand out Kalachakra out like water to combat the current effects of the King of Shambhala even to those who have zero interest or intent on practicing the puja.

>>2056409
>home decorations
~t. guy that's completely ignorant about Vajrayana and spouting colonial Chinese agiprop

>>2056431
Britain's work is already done.

Now it is up to Hong Kong to take over all of China (including Taiwan) and spread what they've learned.

>>2055936
I do in principle but practically it won't happen and would create a million new problems to replace the current ones. For example, what would happen to the Han population in Tibet? Who forms the new Tibetan government? What stops Tibet becoming an impoverished backwater?

>>2056431
GB gave up HK since it already reached its capitalistic peak like Japan did. It would deteriorate (housing bubble n sheit) no matter what so it might be better to let them rot in China's hand to avoid the blames.
They even launched some absurdly progressive attempt of democratic and social welfare reformation that they knew China would be unable to sustain, thus to create a sharp contrast before and after the handover.
So for now it's just foolish for the Brits to retake Hongkkng before its fully rotten.

>>2056461
>muh Buddhism won't approve this
The thing is that the religions are never monolithic, especially when they enter previously pagan (Bon, for Tibetan context) regions. Like there's no sanction of honor killing in Quran, but tribal people are still doing it as how they've been doing since before Islam.

>>2056443
I still find it funny they use the old colonial flag as a symbol of independence

I guess it must piss off the PRC majorly, so fair play

>>2056453
A religious figurehead of course wouldn't have known anything dirty happening beneath him. Doesn't mean that the system isn't wicked

>>2056461
>Did I say that?
The trustworthiness of a person/state includes both the worst and the best.

>He sought CIA training for his armies
His country was being taken over by China, he needed any help he could get.

>Dorje Shugden controversy
Funded by the PRC. With the revelations from Reuter's investigations and the other apparent PRC funded projects linking the group to the state, its pretty obvious where the controversy is coming from and for what purpose.

>>2056503
>muh Buddhism won't approve this
Did I say this?
No, I said that the harvest of limbs from slaves, as horrible as that was, wasn't just for shits and giggles. It was the legal code, for better or worse.

The vast majority of things like kapalas and kanglings were harvested from sky burials.

>religions are never monolithic
Totally agreed.

>Bon, for Tibetan context
Much like Saivist Tantra, the only serious difference between Bon and Vajrayana is the lack of a Buddha. The vast majority of Tibetan Vajrayana's godforms that weren't lifted from Saivism were lifted from Bon. Chod comes from Bon. Milarepa was probably HIGHLY trained in Bon.

>>2056515
Tibet proper is a large country.

With a country that large with poor communications between the head of state and the local government, theres bound to be some aberrant.

>>2056523
>his country
*his limited theocracy and bunch of intertwined tribes he had or had not even heard of

>>2056523
>With the revelations from Reuter's investigations and the other apparent PRC funded projects linking the group to the state, its pretty obvious where the controversy is coming from and for what purpose
The ISC =/= the Gelug school. Ganden Shartse splintered with no input from ISC. Pomra Khangtsen with no input from the ISC.

Unless you want to tell me that the school that Dondrub runs is a communist front.

>>2056553
>Abberant
That's a good way to understate it

>>2055936
Not even lama wants independence. He just wants to come back to his castle in the sky.

>>2056571
Its been overstated quite effectively by PRC. One of their large historical justification was "Tibet was slave country and practices inhumane laws, also monks are false and power hungry".

>>2056565
http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/china-dalailama/

You can read the report yourself.

>>2056565
Or, phrased differently:

Dondrub screwed the pooch by labeling all Shugden practitioners as suspect instead of trying to actually parse out how/why the oracle who told him to leave to save the Tibetan state became a Chinese agent.

The whole thing just seems mismanaged to the point where I'm skeptical of Dondrub's ability to lead a nation.

>>2056599
I know about the report on ISC as I read it when it dropped.

>>2056032
same word can mean arm and hand in chinese

>>2056612
>I'm skeptical of Dondrub's ability to lead a nation.
Don't worry, if I read it correct, he already gave up the position to a democratically elected leader chosen by the Tibetans of the exile.

Ofcourse you could say, exiles don't count, so maybe you can ask for Tibetan living in the Tibet for a vote instead? I'll see how that goes.

>>2056599
>ccp likes it so it's automatically less credible than my literally never doctored source

>>2056637
All history books in CCP are published under CCP oversight, their perspective on Tibet and their actions are pretty much automatically a propaganda piece.

>>2055936
The majority of people living in Tibet are Han Chinese

The majority of "Tibetans" living in Tibet don't feel particularly oppressed, and the only people that care are the aristocrats who used to flog people for looking wrongly at them sideways and made flutes out of dead prisoners' bones

Imo this is a worse piece of propaganda by the American media machine than the entire-Trump campaign because it actually gains approval on the basis of nothing

>>2056634
It's hard for me to buy that the Head of the Gelugs wouldn't wind up as the de-fact decision maker, if not actually de jure.

I'm not saying the ChiComs are the good guys. At ALL. I'm simply saying that the ISC isn't the end-all be-all of Shugden practice and for Dondrub to act this way, no matter how fearful he is for this nation, has already caused damage inside the Gelug school that has jack shit to do with ISC's agitation.

>>2056656
>Many of the senior teachers responsible for educating Beijing’s hand-picked Panchen Lama are Shugden practitioners, according to experts on Tibetan Buddhism. Lama Gangchen, the most influential Shugden monk living abroad, has been photographed with this Panchen Lama as well.

The original kid who the Dalai Lama chose disappears, the new kid is the one chosen by the Chinese CCP. The new Lama also has a entourage of Shugden Lama teaching him the correct view on Tibet/China.

>President Xi Jinping in June met the party-approved Panchen Lama in Beijing. The monk told Xi he would “resolutely uphold the unity of the motherland and its people,” state television reported.

kek

Its not just ISC, but the whole controversy is generated by CCP.

>>2056648
How are books written by scholars sponsored by CIA more credible tho?
Historians are all biased no matter what they align with

>>2056699
Ahh yes, all the western historians are CIA sponsored therefore China is allowed to publish only CCP approved history books.

Nice equivalence.

>>2056686
>Beijing picking Lamas
It's literally a well accepted practice since the Qing dynasty. Unless you buy into the reincarnation bullshit.

>>2056686
>Its not just ISC, but the whole controversy is generated by CCP.
So you're telling me the entire school Dondrub oversees are paid Chinese shills? There's not one single Shugden initiate on the face of the Earth that's just caught in the middle of all this political garbage? This view seems incredibly reductive to me, considering the Shugden controversy was brewing for a long time between doctrinal disputes before the CCP intervened.

>>2055988
i don't agree with your opinion but i can see what you're getting at.

i think what a lot of western liberals don't realize is that religious extremism in tibet is on par with the islamic world. religion is everywhere and permeates every part of tibetan culture. also tibetan buddhism is not the kind of "get in touch with your inner spirituality" religion that westerners often make it out to be. it has some practices that outsiders often find quite shocking and they believe in some pretty horrific "wrathful deities". I've also heard stories about widespread sexual abuse by lamas under the guise of secret religious practices.

some links:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangling
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapala
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrathful_deities
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_burial

>>2056707
And what concrete evidences do they have when they are studying Tibet from across an ocean? I mean other than testimony of the small portion of theocrat/aristocrat refugees? Do you think they who used to sit on top of the whole institution have any oversight of how bloody the whole picture looked like?

>>2056708
>China, since Qing, has always picked lamas in Tibet
kek

>>2056711
If you put fuel to fire, it will spread. The more fuel you provide the bigger the fire.

>>2056738
>Every tibetans outside of Tibet are theocrat/aristocrats
Nice going there

>>2056749
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Urn
Why am I not supprised to see how brief it is and the "controversy" part

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>>2056729
>kangling
>kapala
You can see both of mine here, kangling on the right (sounds like a dying dog) and kapala in center on the book.

>>2056790
zh.wikisource.org/wiki/欽定藏內善後章程
Another 18th century edict that mentioned it

>>2056790
They divided a tool/method of choosing a successor and gave to the Tibetans.

The Tibetans were then using that tool themselves to determine dalai lama, keynote: themselves.

The difference now is China is using the same method to determine Tibet's religious leader.

This is analogous to me teaching you how to fish and you fishing yourself your own fish. Then a year later I force you to eat only what I catch and what I find to be good for me.

The controversy is a misnomer. It's not the tool the Tibetans object to, but rather the controller. In the past people who got too close to China were exiled out of Tibet or killed for being a puppet.

>>2056846
>In the past people who got too close to China were exiled out of Tibet or killed for being a puppet.
Source?