Looking back on it now was there anyway that the United States

>>2046482
No. Russia wouldn't accept a subordinate position for long and the US didn't go through all of that shit to win the cold war to split things evenly.

>>2046500
Well yes at the time it was impossible,but with the growing power of China doesn't it make sense for the United States to ally their largest, nearest, potentially greatest long term rival.

>>2046482

Yes, the USA were mainly friends / allies under Yeltsin.

Putin has always been sad that the USSR collapsed and made it a major goal of his leadership to attack what he sees as US dominance.

>>2046571
I don't think it is as simple as Putin bad. The United States has consistently moved Nato eastward until Russia used mitary force to stop them.

>>2046482
As an American, I'm a bit confused on why we should hate Russia/Putin. Oh, he's former KGB before he became president?

What was George H.W. Bush? Boy Scout leader?

>>2046588
Well most of that is the media attempting to justify a hate without explicitly stating the real reasons cause saying we are attempting to move our sphere of influence to contain russia is alot less sexy than Putin is an evil spy.

>>2046597
Aye, someone wants us to have Russia, and I'm not sure it's the MSM.

I have a feeling the man who wants us to hate Russia wears a funny hat and red shoes.

>>2046605
*hate*

>>2046605
Who the fuck is that, Ronald McDonald?

>>2046582

Democracy has mainly moved East and in general former Soviet controlled states have preferred to look to the West for greater freedom and prosperity and Putin doesn't like it.

I never said "bad" that's not really a useful term.

>>2046620

You insult people who are intentionally clowns.

Would "fish hat" helped you identify this person?

>>2046637
That Argie cuck?

>>2046605
I don't think it is something conspiracy honestly, the United States and Russia have conflicting area of influence. Also residual hate from the cold war and the fact Putin is oligarchical dictator makes it easy to demonize them.

>>2046628
>Democracy has mainly moved East and in general former Soviet controlled states have preferred to look to the West for greater freedom and prosperity and Putin doesn't like it.

Eastern Europe liked all the money that Western Europe showered on them.

Schengen, the Euro, austerity, and regulatory harmonization? Not so much.

>>2046676
>Schengen, the Euro
Most East European EU countries are in Schengen and several are in the Eurozone.

>>2046628
True but I think the west must really think about how much it's worth allying with these countries. Is it worth the hate of Russia to have the Ukraine in Nato or the European Union. What can these eastern countries really provide. I mean some cases make alot of sense like Poland which is a strong state and good ally. They have a bright economic future and they actually provide assistance in military matters. Could Georgia do the same. I don't think it is worth the cost geopolitically speaking to ally with any Eastern European country looking to leave the Russian sphere of influence.

Also sorry for making your argument sound simpler than it was.

>>2046482
Did he really say that once?

>>2046693

Surely it should be up to them to decide. The EU and the US may exercise a large amount of soft power but I don't see them offering an ultimatum to Eastern European states side with us or we will invade you".

>>2046713
Well I see it this way. The European Union and United States should not be compelled or forced into an alliance with any nation that seeks it. They need the flexibility to decide whether it is in their best interest to ally these countries.
Also I do agree European alliance and dominance is much preferable to Russian, because they have the capital and influence to exercise soft power. Russia simply lacks these resources, which necessitates an aggressive stance against the western allies. Russia is forced to show that the western Powers won't sacrifice their resources to help eastern europeans to keeps its "allies" in check.

For example the invasion of Crimea was nessary precisely because Russia failed in its use of soft power,which is cheap. Thus they felt compelled to use hard power,which is expensive to salvage what they could.

>>2046739
>The European Union and United States should not be compelled or forced into an alliance with any nation that seeks it. They need the flexibility to decide whether it is in their best interest to ally these countries.

The best interest of the EU and the USA and mankind is to foster freedom and democracy. Everything else is just short term thinking that always backfires in the long run.

> "For America, the chief geopolitical prize is Eurasia"
Zbigniew Brzezinski

>>2046588
Because Russia is contesting our dominance

>>2046759
I agree on a long term, but not every action can be strictly long term. Otherwise you leave yourself inflexible to short term trends and can lose alot what you have gained.

But I do agree with you. However I believe that Russia is the ultimate goal of this policy and we can't afford to ostrarise Russia. I believe it is in the Wests interests to integrate Russia into a mutually respectful relationship. This is believe would be the easiest way to help spur Russian democracy, by not allowing them to demonize the west and helping prosperity spread. If we can do this I do believe the rest of the region will follow.

To summarize I think the politics requires some dexterity. I believe Russia should be the ultimate goal of western integration, not culturally but economically and politically. I also believe this policy is something that has to be done subtly and forcing it will only further the goal and cause bloodshed now.

>>2046482
It depends on how close the USA wants to keep their European allies.

Right now it would make nothing but perfect sense for the USA to ally with Russia were it not for the fact that Russia has less than favourable relations with the majority of Europe and how that's the way the bigger European countries like it.

>>2046770
No the American chief political goal is Eurasia disunity everything else is secondary.

>>2046551
the USA has always been closer with China though

besides US policy basically just plays Russia-China-India off one another, as well as smaller states against those big three

>>2046800
True, but I do believe an alliance between Western European capital and Russia resources is mutually beneficial. That being said the further east and closer to Russia you get the more complex this becomes.

>>2046809
True but Russia is waning in power and it could be dangerous to push Russia into closer relations with China.

>>2046770
this. Russia as well as the EU are natural enemies of the US. Both together are the only force that can rival US hegemony. Also the US always need to exploint countries for their own benefit.

>>2046798

Russia is not an existential threat to the West, we don't need to that concerned about it other than as a rather minor player that seeks to undermine and bully its neighbours.

There's no real reason to pander to them.

>>2046822
it will never happen
China is a predator and so is Russia

Russia knows getting too close with China will mean losing Siberia, and they are very vulnerable in the East.

China as well can't get in bed with Russia because of their internal issues and Russian expertise at inflaming them

>>2046482
Not a chance. Russia doesn't trust the US (or the west in general), and the feeling is mutual, with some justification on both sides. Centuries of political and military opposition. It just briefly looked like things might change because nobody remembered the era before the USSR and thought communism was solely responsible for the hostility when it goes a lot deeper than that.

>>2046605
...Santa Claus?

>>2046848
>China is a predator
Not exactly fair. How many wars have China been embroilled in the past 70 years? How many wars have the US been in?

>>2046881
Wars are only one aspect of it. Also Korea Tibet India and The turks in the west

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>>2046901
>Korea
They only fought in that war once MacArthur thought it would be a good idea to capture all of Korea. China doesn't want US military bases on it's door step so it's understandable they pushed back and got involved in the war.
>Tibet
Good point
>India
Nehru was being a dick about the McMahon Line
>The turks in the west
Don't know what you mean here

On the other hand you have:
>Vietnam
>Grenada
>Cuba - Bay of Pigs
>Regime change in Iran (Operation Ajax) - removing mossadegh and replacing him with the Shah
>Nicaragua Contras
>Regime change in Chile - installing Pinochet
>First gulf war
>Second gulf war
>Afganistan

I'm probably missing a lot more

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>>2046901
you missed secret war with Soviet Union and invasion of Vietnam

>>2046588
russia invaded georgia and ukraine in the last decade and also regularly threatens American allies in the baltics

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>>2046983
>China doesn't want US military bases on it's door step

>bitches about Cuba

America didnt want a Soviet puppet with nukes on its door step

>>2046645
Currently, yes.

>>2046675
I'm not saying I don't understand the beef between US and the USSR.

I'm saying I don't understand the beef between US and Russia. It seems contrived. Manufactured. Deceptive.

>>2046780

Are they?

Or are they trying to remove kebab?

>>2046879
Lives in perpetual winter.
Distributes what other people make and he does not pay for.
Only works 1 day per year.

Checks out.

>>2047049
Aye, I get that. We only promised to aid Ukraine if they were attacked via nukes.

Kind of a gaping hole in that treaty imho.

Bush the Younger asked the world if anyone gave a shit if Russia took Georgia, and nobody did.

Obama asked the same questions over Crimea and 1/2 Ukraine, and again, nobody gave a shit.

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>>2047065
Lol, I don't have a dog in this fight. Countries fight for their interests and that's understandable - what's not right though is when people try to claim the moral highground by saying China is a predator (like this anon >>2046848)

>>2046588
HW Bush also willingly ceded power when he was done.

>>2047298
He got his ass kicked to the curb for instituting new taxes after "Read my lips, no new taxes".

GOP actually gives a shit about people who violate everything they say they stand for.

>>2046482
Russia asked America to invite them, and the Americans said we don't send invitations (i'd like to mention Montenegro here).
Similar to how Japan said that they were up for piece if the Americans offered it, between Hiroshima and Nagasaki. After which they agreed to unconditional surrender.

So it's only natural for Russia to act defensive.