Was the Rape on Nanking as horrific as some the stories claim?

Saying

>There is something strange about the whole thing.

Isn't starting a discussion. What's strange about it? Why do you think this? Etc

Stop wasting board space on nothing you mong

>>2028088
Basically that it happened in the far east, to yellow men.

Japs needed to be nuked.

The Rape of Nanking seems horrific because it's our (Western society's) closest and most vivid encounter with pre-industrial pre-colonial warfare. It only seems horrific today because it was the last battle of its kind to be waged in Asia before they were infected with our Republican and Humanitarian ideals.

In reality, it was no worse than what you would have seen when Thracian mercenaries sacked a town for their Athenian employers, or what Roman soldiers would do to a town that wouldn't surrender, or how the American Indians were "pacified"

>>2028105
Alright you worthless fucking hall monitor pansy Japan ended up losing World War 2 so I suspect that the numbers were fudged to make them look worse than they actually were.
Is that good enough for you, or should I write you a essay princess?

>>2028127
Makes sense. Wasn't Japan was already industrialized though? I don't know about China at the time, but it seems bizarre for the Nips to just mollywhop them in such an uncivilized manner. Like you said though, it's probably just because it's our closest encounter.

>>2028147
Japan was for all intents and purposes a developing country at the time.

You really can't imagine how different pre-WWII Japan was comapred to modern Japan. In the span of a few decades you went from women urinating on public streets to women refusing to jump from a burning building because people might see their underwear.

>>2028088
Surely some stories are exaggerations. Just as some stories about the Nazis bring great 1928-1939 were exaggerations. Just as any opinion can be an exaggeration.

Does that change the severity of the historically factual event? No.

>>2028127
>In reality, it was no worse than what you would have seen when Thracian mercenaries sacked a town for their Athenian employers, or what Roman soldiers would do to a town that wouldn't surrender, or how the American Indians were "pacified" [Citation needed]

These groups didn't actively exterminate an entire city just because they saw them as subhumans.

>>2028147
Only a few cities in Japan were industrialized. The majority of the country didn't even have electricity.

>>2028133
What's the moral difference between 300,000 massacred civilians and 250,000?

"Fudged" could very likely be "unable to verify every single death with photoevidence".

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>>2028230
Some estimates are as low as 40,000, with most of the deceased being soldiers. I think there is a case for a moral difference to be made. 300,000 may be an intentional genocide, whereas 30% of 40000 got in the way.

>>2028282
https://books.google.com/books?id=N-vXRgEAPU0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=isbn:1845451805&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjuo_Oi5dPQAhXh1IMKHepFBQIQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=40%2C000&f=false

>>2028223
>These groups didn't actively exterminate an entire city

Sack of Mycales, destruction of Carthage, Indian Island Massacre

>just because they saw them as subhumans.

Literally semantics.

>>2028088

yep. it has been extensively studied as youll find out on a little research, but i advise against it because the whole thing is very very gruesome

>>2028304
Thanks sir! I'll stop thinking about it right this moment!

>>2028163
How did the japanese government manage to do this, and why can't indians and chinese replicate it?

>>2028282
40,000 is the number from Japanese sources.

240,000 is straight from the post-war USA fact finding mission.

Also, I never used the word "genocide" or made that claim.

>>2028295
>destruction of carthage

The Romans clearly saw the Carthagians as an advanced people. Also, no genocide occured.

>semantics
Straight from Japanese high officials mouths 1930-1945.

>>2028422
Lots of US aid, preferential trade deals, and free US military protection.

>why can't
Just because they have not does not mean can not.
China today is as developed and rich as Japan was when it joined the "developed" nations and OECD in 1964.

Yes.

The part that people have a problem with is when you compare it to other colonialists. Some people insist that Japan was uniquely awful as a colonizing power, or that dropping bombs from an aircraft at civilians is okay but shooting bullets from your gun at civilian is not.

>>2028620

Carthage continued to exist pretty much as normal after they were conquered by the Romans?

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>>2028127
Or to what the Brits did at Badajoz in 1812

>>2028656

>that was a different time

>it wasn't wrong then

>it became wrong when an enemy of Britain did it

>>2028636
The US never did anything on the scale of Nanking you fucking weeb

>all these whataboutisms

>>2028088
Same with the holocaust

>b-b-but muh census data, surely no one has ever lied to escape inprisonment

>>2028845
There are more than enough people admitting to the atrocities they did during the Holocaust directly after they were convicted, decades after they were convicted and decades after they did it despite never being persecuted.

>>2028826

The USA has sent in it's fighting men to kill civilians in order to compel it's opponents to surrender. Successfully, during their war with Japan.

If Japan had successfully genocided the Chinese, we'd be talking about them in the same way as we talk about native Americans.

>>2028864
6 million of them? Trials and testimony only account for 100-200k at most, a far cry from 6 million.

>>2028877

Are you counting the killings carried out by the Einsatzgruppen?

Are you counting those who died of starvation under nazi policies?

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>>2028877
Is there anything more autistic than a /pol/ weeb denying the Holocaust and the Nanking massacre?

>>2028620
>no genocide occurred in Carthage

The third punic war must've been a prank.

>>2028877
You'd never, in any other historiographical topic and in any other aspect of life, demand that standard of evidence that you're demanding here, and that very question also tries to imply that witness testimony is all evidence there is, which is false.

>>2028872
No one ever claimed that Japan successful genocided the Chinese.

The claim is that they attempted to genocide them.

Now kill yourself.

>>2028896
[Citation needed]

There is no evidence that the Romans genocided the Carthagians.

>>2028891
>official "camps" and testimony did not have anywhere near 6 million deaths
>b-but muh death squad killed 5.8 million

>>2028901

>No one ever claimed that Japan successful genocided the Chinese.

Nobody did in this thread, anyway.

>The claim is that they attempted to genocide them.

And if they did, we'd talk about the Chinese the same way we talk about the native Americans.

>>2028906
It's pretty sad that putting bullshit you made up into other people's mouths is all you can do.

>>2028906

Tens of millions of civilians died along the Russian Front. You are claiming that the six million Jews who lived in that area before the war were not among the victims?

>>2028909
>Nobody did in this thread, anyway.

What? Then what is your point? Who were you responding to?

>And if they did, we'd talk about the Chinese the same way we talk about the native Americans.

Do you have a point? A genocide doesn't require all the targeted people to be dead.

>>2028911
Not an argument.

>>2028914
Sure, but they were in uniform or killed by Russians and they should be discounted from le 6 million gassed and ovened

>>2028922

... my point is that if the Japanese had been as successful in genociding the people they conquered, as America had been, we would talk about their victims the same way we talk about native Americans.

>>2028930
>Sure, but they were in uniform or killed by Russians and they should be discounted from le 6 million gassed and ovened

Somebody told you that 6 million Jews were gassed during the War?

>>2028904
Genocide isn't exactly an accurate term to describe the third punic war but it's accepted as a well documented fact that the Romans utterly destroyed Carthage and massacred/enslaved whoever stood against them in the final moments of the war.

From Polybius
>Scipio, when he looked upon the city as it was utterly perishing and in the last throes of its complete destruction, is said to have shed tears and wept openly for his enemies.

>>2028904
What in the fuck are you on about. After Hannibal the hatred for Carthage among Romans was so fervent that Cato The Elder literally finished any and every speech with "Furthermore, Carthage must be utterly destroyed."

It's no exaggeration to say that the final Punic war was done mostly out of spite for the Carthaginian people. However, accounts of Romans salting the earth are entirely unfounded. The Carthaginian lands were very fertile and for Rome to salt those fields after conquering Carthage would be a spectacular JUST moment, especially considering the population boom going on in the city of Rome.

>>2029098
i think i heard somewhere that he wept because he thought that could have happened to rome

>>2029154
Not just Rome, but all cities and all people.

>>2028223
>[Citation needed]
why would the victors of a war record their own atrocities?

you'd be reading about american war crimes if japan won WWII.

>>2028832

>all these legal precedents

>>2029154
>>2029204
is Scipio /ourguy/?

>>2028088
I dont know if Oral Histories are your thing.

But this doc is really good if youre interested in learning more.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfkk-GtM_sI

>>2028088
The figures used by the CCP are probably on the high end but it definitely did happen. You have Rabe and a number of other foreigners who were there at the time.

All the focus on Nanking misdirects attention when the bulk of Japanese war crimes were committed under the 3 Alls policy. As I understand it (I might be wrong), Nanking wasn't really something the higher ups ordered as a strategic decision or whatever. They may not have done much to stop it either, but this differentiates it qualitatively from a strategic policy such as the 3 Alls.

>>2028163
>women refusing to jump from a burning building because people might see their underwear.
That didn't actually happen.

>>2029154
>>2029204
He saw the inevitable fate of all cities, rome included.

>>2028904
They were quite happy to write about it, and one of the most powerful cities in the Mediterranean just fucking vanished from the histories along with their people and wealth.

And the ruins clearly show signs of the fires. There's literally no debate among archeologists as to what happened to carthage.

>>2028826

literally firebombing Tokyo

literally atomic bombs

unironically mass rape during the occupation

>>2028422
The chinese are replicating it right now desu. The difference is that Japan is a tiny island nation and China has a billion people in one of the largest countries' by size. They also have a completely different strategic calculus going for them.

Japan before Meiji was a relative afterthought to the West, who were busy in China trying to extract as much from the sick man of Asia as possible.

China today isn't an afterthought, it is considered the strategic rival/enemy of everyone around it.

India again is a different story; its a miracle the place has not balkanized with how diverse it is.

>>2030078

How dare you. Diversity is their strength.