Why are poles so butthurt about losing territories in which they

>>2016234
because they're not cucks

>>2016298
what??

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>>2016298
>Can't do anything more than complain about massive butthurt
>not a cuck
pick one and only one

>>2016234
it's just our prorussian nationalists

>>2016516
You mean antirussian?

>>2016540
no, prorussian
antilithuanian and antiukrainian

When people from Poland are called `Poles´, why aren´t people from Holland called `Holes´?

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>>2016234
Why are Germans butthurt about losing land that didn't even have German majority and was ethnically Polish?

>>2016546
But the whole point of being butthurt about losing "Eastern Poland Totallynotukrainelithuaniaand belarus" is to hate on Russians for invading and "allying" with Addi.

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>>2016234
Because people can get assimilated. Just look at Russia, it assimilated everyone around them, even though they're in majority not ethnic Russians.

It's only Poles that are the ultimate cucks and can't fucking polonize anyone. Truly thr cuck of Europe and Batman of nations. Can't do anything right and always spares his enemies, causing the anal devastation and partitions.


Bunch of fucking imbeciles.

>>2016679
You do realize a good chunk of the Poles in western poland are of german descent.

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>>2016687
>You do realize a good chunk of the Poles in western poland are of german descent.
You're fucking retarded piece of shit and don't know anything about history of this region.

Shut the fuck up and leave.

>>2016234
You know there was a massive population transfer after ww2

>>2016234
Are they? I'm pretty sure Lwow is a joke

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>>2016732
Polish-build part looks good.

That's the only place people visit there.

>>2016679
Poland tried to convert ukraine and belarus to catholicism for centuries. Also they made ukrainians hate Russians belarussians go WE WUZ LITVINS N SHIET and made them have their own cultural identity even though they considered themselves Russian until the 1920s.

>>2016767
>Poland tried to convert ukraine and belarus to catholicism for centuries. Also they made ukrainians hate Russians belarussians go WE WUZ LITVINS N SHIET and made them have their own cultural identity even though they considered themselves Russian until the 1920s.
Bullshit.
Poles didn't convert anyone, it was their own decision to convert.

And Russia didn't even exist when Poland got the Ukraine and Belarus.

>>2016679
Russia, as far as I know, has hundreds of ethnic groups, some them tiny, and almost all of them have their own autonomous republics, can promote their culture and language, and can participate in the Russian Federal government. Just look at Shoigu.
Most of the areas Russia expanded to were sparsely populated so there werent much conditions for Russia to assimilate other ethnic groups. At best they made them vassals of the tsar and let them go about their business.
>Russia
>Majority non ethnic Russians
Read history again you retard.

In fact it was Russians who were the cucks, not converting you poles to orthodoxy for one.

>>2016777
>In fact it was Russians who were the cucks, not converting you poles to orthodoxy for one.
The reason Russians couldn't russify Poles is because their culture is weaker and younger.

Not because they didn't try it.

>>2016771
>They converted themselves
LOL I cannot believe this bullshit! The whole point of conquering the peoples of the Rus was to convert them. It was done with violence due to the resistance of the cossacks. Also the Pilsudski government deliberately closed down orthodox churches in Belarus and ukraine.

>And Russia didn't even exist when Poland got the Ukraine and Belarus.
All of the population of the kievan Rus considered themselves Russian.

>>2016779
If their culture was so weak then why did they manage according to you to assimilate so many people but not poles? Also polish culture isnt older. Its the same age as Kievan Rus's culture.

>>2016783
>LOL I cannot believe this bullshit! The whole point of conquering the peoples of the Rus was to convert them. It was done with violence due to the resistance of the cossacks. Also the Pilsudski government deliberately closed down orthodox churches in Belarus and ukraine.
You're the one posting bullshit here, you orthodox sperg.

Cossacks were a warrior class of Polish Crown, not fucking Ukraine you stupid fuck.

And the main reason they chimped out is because they couldn't raid Ottoman Empire, which Polish King forbid them to do, the reason was a Polish-Ottoman non-agression treaty.

But once again Cossack niggers chimped out.

>All of the population of the kievan Rus considered themselves Russian.
You can consider yourself an ape for what I care. Muh kievan rus. Where is it now?
>>2016786
Because Kievan Rus doesn't have anything to do with Muscovy you absolute fucking cretin.

And did you seriously just compare the most advanced country of its time to some fucking steppe-niggers that Russians were converting and assimilating?

Kys, don't talk to me again.

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>>2016789

>Because Kievan Rus doesn't have anything to do with Muscovy you absolute fucking cretin.
>Kievan Rus
>A multitude of Russian principalities
> Mongol invasion comes
> Kievan Knyazes conquered
>Danail Galitskiy cucks himself to Catholics
> Moscow is the only nominally independent principality
> Moscow liberates and other Russian principalities from tatars and poles
>Moscow restores Russian unity not found since the Kievan Rus
Moscow has everything to do with Kievan Rus you shitbrained pshek


> Muh kievan rus. Where is it now?
Its in the form of Russia

> most advanced country of its time
You mean another fuedal catholic state continuing drang nach osten?

>warrior class of Polish Crown
You cant make this shit up. Cossacks were escaped serfs who rebelled against polish atrocities and tried to create an independent orthodox state in the Ukriane in order to protect from catholic incursion, crimean tatar raids and russian inavsions. They then united with the Russians except hetman Mazepa.

>>2016789
>Kys, don't talk to me again.
Why would I want to kms when pshek scum will never chimp out in Rus again?

>>2016783
>All of the population of the kievan Rus considered themselves Russian.

source for this claim?

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>>2016802
>>2016805
You don't get to bring friends.

>>2016802
>Moscow has everything to do with Kievan Rus

lolno
Moscow was a shitty backwater duchy that adopted authoritharian mongol culture and fucked over civilized places like Novogrod.

>>2016679
You know that area in Lithuania in OP map is result of Lithuanians polonizing?

>>2016892
>You know that area in Lithuania in OP map is result of Lithuanians polonizing?
Lithuanians polonized themselves not got forced to it.

>>2016659
I doubt that Germans today are very butthrt about that

>>2017004
And that's why anon isn't using the modern German flag

>>2017006
tush

>>2016679
>Just look at Russia, it assimilated everyone around them
lol

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>>2017048
It did

>>2016802
At first Uzbeg did not want to empower Moscow. In 1327, the Baskaki Shevkal, cousin of Uzbeg, arrived in Tver from the Horde, with a large retinue. They took up residence at Aleksander's palace. Rumors spread that Shevkal wanted to occupy the throne for himself and introduce Islam to the city. When, on 15 August 1327, the Mongols tried to take a horse from a deacon named Dyudko, he cried for help and a mob of furious people fell on the Tatars and killed them all. Shevkal and his remaining guards were burnt alive. Thus Uzbeg Khan began backing Moscow as the leading Russian state. Ivan I Kalita was granted the title of grand prince and given the right to collect taxes from other Russian potentates. The Khan also sent Ivan at the head of an army of 50,000 soldiers to punish Tver

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Horde

Gonna have to bookmark this page so ruusians and putinboos on this site stop lying about their past

>>2017070
Expansion =/= Assimilation

>>2017084
They speak Russian.

>>2016802
>Moscow has everything to do with Kievan Rus
And HRE has everything to do with Roman Empire

>>2016905
>Lithuanians polonized themselves not got forced to it.


Shit meme, Church acted as Polish agency full of Poles they refused to hold sermons in Lithuanian and refused to baptize people in Lithuanian names. Only ones who polonized themselves willingly were nobles.

>>2017196
Grand dutchy didn't even speak in Lithuanian but in Ruthenian.

Lithuanians were weak minority in their own country.

>>2017207
>Grand dutchy didn't even speak in Lithuanian but in Ruthenian.


But they did in pretty much the same area as it is today, lower class nobles and peasantry only spoke Lithuanian, upper class nobility spoke Polish. Ruthenians was only used in Ruthenian territories. All the Grand dukes up until Alexander Jagiellon spoke Lithuanian after him all spoke Polish.

>>2017225
It doesn't mean Lithuanian nobles were forced to Polonize.

They simply chose to.

>>2017238
Nobles yes, but lower class and peasantry especially at the end of 19th century and at the start of 20th were increasingly getting polonized due to Poles holding power on Catholic Church in Lithuania, there were even conflicts, escalating into fights.


>The Polonization of Church life in southwestern Lithuania made its greatest advances during Bishop Pawel Straszyński's ten year (1837-1847) reign as Bishop of Sejny. Concerned with reforming the lax standards in the liturgy, Straszyński reformed the church services; however, in doing so, he also abolished Lithuanian sermons and services in many parishes of the diocese.28 Bishop Straszyński not only failed to learn the language spoken by over half of his flock, but was reported to have openly and publicly insulted Lithuanian as a "language of sheep," a derogatory expression not uncommon at the time.29 In addition, Straszyński assigned many Poles to Lithuanian parishes, ending the former policy of taking language into account in appointing pastors.30 Polujanski, while praising the bishop's administrative abilities, vehemently criticized Straszyński's "hatred of the people's language" in his 1859 travelogue of Augustów province; he was convinced that the attempt to drive out the long-standing tradition of Lithuanian church services was responsible for the peasants' lack of respect for their bishop.31 At least some Lithuanian peasants never quite forgot Straszyński's "reforms;" in 1906, a petition to the Sejny diocese asking for the return of Lithuanian-language church services stated that "as our grandfathers tell us, the rosary and other hymns were sung in Lithuanian long ago, but during Bishop Straszyński's time, the Poles took the rosary away from us."32 Despite peasant resentment against Straszyński's policies, the language controversy in the churches of southwestern Lithuania took on a violent and bitter form only at the turn of the 20th century.

>>2017258
Not to forget in 19th century when literacy was fairly low Church held great power among peasants in what language they speak/hold cermons and etc.

>>2017262
You have no idea what are you talking about, haven't you?
In Poland in '60's they still hold masses/ceremonies in fucking Latin.
Source: my mother was child back then, also confirmed by grandma
Well, it seems they were "laticized", and they didn't even know about it

>>2016585
They're not called poles. They're called pollacks, as evidenced by hamlet. But pollack became a derogatory term as portrayed by archie bunker, so everyone (someone) changed the English demonym for polish people.

>>2017300
It's true.

In Polish it's "Polak" for male and 'Polka" for female.

>>2017299
I think you might need to get your eyes checked retard. I'm talking about a time when vast majority of peasantry were illiterate and the only form of "education" they received was from church and you're comparing it to 60's.

If you think Church didn't play a role in Polonization either you're in denial, guilliable or don't know anything about this subject at all.

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>>2017337

>>2017300
Sounds like the writers grew up around pollacks. They are pretty dumb

>>2016672
but it's not

>>2016783
>It was done with violence due to the resistance of the cossacks.
>Implying that cossacks caused rebellions for religious reasons and not because they wanted to join nobility and get such privileges

>>2017225
>All the Grand dukes up until Alexander Jagiellon spoke Lithuanian after him all spoke Polish.
That's because Grand Dukes since Alexander Jagiellon were all from Polish Jagiellon dynasty, and Grand Dukes were (if my memory serves me right) either second sons of ruling king or the first in line of succession to Polish crown.

>>2017453
>Polish Jagiellon dynasty

>>2017464
They've become Polish once Jagiello decided to Polonize himself.

What's so hard to understand?

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>>2017466
>Polonize himself

He merely accepted Polish crown for his own interests not because he wanted to be Polish. Nor he or his descendants strictly stated that they're only Polish. They didn't even have any Polish blood and nationality as in modern sense didn't exist back then.

>>2017477
They weren't Lithuanian either, you we-wuzing nigger.
Poland had more nationhood sense than any other country back then.

And he accepted Polish language, culture and his nobility became Poles.

>>2017482
>They weren't Lithuanian either, you we-wuzing nigger.

I didn't say that or claim that. But considering he had Lithuanian name, lived in Lithuania until the age of 35, spoke Lithuanian. Wasn't Lithuanian while he Lived in Lithuania, but suddenly when he moved to Poland he became Polish, okay got it.
>Poland had more nationhood sense than any other country back then.

WE WUZ

>And he accepted Polish language, culture and his nobility became Poles.

The thing is he didn't even lean to speak Polish even at somewhat decent level even at the times of his own death according to Długosz.

>his nobility became Poles.

Okay.

Poles and most Slavs in general are butthurt about history to the point of having a complex. This complex is a system wherein all of their neighbors hate them, however they believe they never did anything wrong to them and are thus unjustly despised, so they take to shilling for their nation routinely. And starting world wars. For examples of this please see: Russia, Serbia and Poland.

>>2017513
Give me examples and sources of Poland doing anything as bad as Germany and Russia.
>>2017508
Fun fact.

Jagiellons became relevant only after they became Polish.

>>2017606
>Jagiellons became relevant only after they became Polish.


What a twist, truly unbelievable, you think it might have to do something with the fact that Jagiellon dynasty didn't exist prior the first Jagiello himself becoming King of Poland?

>>2017670
Just shows how insignificant Lithuania was.

>>2017688
Because some Polish gasterbeiter considers it irrelevant? As if Poland is any better.


You overestimate importance of Poland too, a shitty regional power in Eastern Europe, Lithuania included.

>>2017701
You sound butthurt.

Crown of the Kingdom of Poland was important for stability in that region. It was important for Christianity.

>>2017707
No I'm just stating what it is, Poland was insignificant backwater regional power which got absorbed by their neighbors and it's economy was solely based on agriculture mainly grain export. Even 1x1 it would have got raped by either Austria/Prussia/Russia. In it's last years it's army merely numbered like 40k while they had numbers in hundreds of thousands.

>>2017715
My mistake they had even smaller army.

>Due to insufficient taxation, the military was often not paid properly, which led to a relatively small army size; in mid-18th century, the Commonwealth had funds to field an army of around 24,000, whereas the Commonwealth's neighbors' armies were often up to 12 times larger: the Imperial Russian Army numbered 300,000; the Prussian Army and Imperial Austrian Army, 150,000,[23] and a few decades later, the Commonwealth could field an army of about 16,000, with Prussian and Austrian armies rising to 200,000

>>2017145
Kievan Rus is historic term to refer to time period, it was not called like that when existed, it was called just Rus. Kiev stopped being main political center in 12th century, century before Mongolian invasion. And Kiev was not the first capital of Rus, Novgorod was.

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>>2016234

Those territories were historically polish. All of western Poland was basically the core of the kingdom when it was founded, and the eastern territories were polish lands for as long as the kingdom itself existed.

As specially Lwow

>>2017726
Main reason for that, is that Poland didn't conscript peasants for army. So yes, in forcing people to military service Poland was indeed backwater.
Also, no one argues, that Poland was weak in 18th century. You just cherry picked the moment in history, when it was weakest, it works for everyone. Example:
Roman Empire was irrelevant and was easily raped by barbarians.

>>2016783

>LOL I cannot believe this bullshit! The whole point of conquering the peoples of the Rus was to convert them.

thats funny, considering Poland didn't conquer it... retard. The only reason Ukraine was transered to Poland from Lithuania was native nobility, which craved influence and to be closer to the main seat of power. Wisniowieckis were tracing their ancestry to Rurik, for example.

Polish theology opposed forced conversions since the Lithuanian-Teutonic Knight conflict (see Jan of Ostroróg). Tatars, who were lifted from luithuanian slavery were free to practice Islam, for example. Only reason Ukrainian nobility polonized and converted was typical Eastern greed. Don't even deal with it, you assblasted mongoloid. xD

>Also they made ukrainians hate Russians belarussians go WE WUZ LITVINS N SHIET

They were the Lithuanians. Lithuanian elites turned Belorussian by the time they forged a union with Poland. They spoke the language as natives.

>even though they considered themselves Russian until the 1920s.

Under Russian empire propaganda and repression.

>In fact it was Russians who were the cucks, not converting you poles to orthodoxy for one.

Orthodoxy is a weak religion incapable of theological struggle, thats why it hides behind state violence. Especially Russian Orthodoxy was piss poor in terms of theory and preaching. Most of orthodox wirtings untill 17th century originated from Polish-owned Ukraine.

>>2017811
>>As specially Lwow
Was Polish kingdom established in 1340?
And why the province with Lwow was called Russian Voivodeship (Latin: Palatinatus russiae, Polish: Wojewodztwo ruskie)?

>>2017932
ruskie != russian, because
rosyjskie = russian
that's false friend
ruskie = ruthenian

It's even in fucking wiki called Ruthenian Voivodeship, so you just tried to sell bullshit

>>2017004

Go to "full"chan pol. Look ad deutsch thread. Come back to me and tell me krauts aren't mad as fuck.

The national-minded ones pretty much seethe with autismal rage.

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>>2017932

The city was nothing but a wooden castle. It was only after the polish conquest that the city has it's contemporary aspect. Polish culture, polish architecture, and polish history is what the city is based on

>>2017932
>>2018015
same with Kiev/Kijow.

it got city rights from a Polish king

>>2017900
>Tatars, who were lifted from luithuanian slavery were free to practice Islam,
>slavery

Polish revionism at it's best.


Bad meme, Tatars were free to practice Islam, first wave of Tatars and sought asylum, then some were later brought after campaigns of Vytautas and later served as his bodyguards because they were foreigners and weren't involved in internal politics, because majority of Grand Dukes were assassinated due to internal conflicts before.

Also they belonged to noble military caste, but also later were revered for craft skills horses, and gardening. They were in no way slaves.

>Lithuanian elites turned Belorussian by the time they forged a union with Poland.

Another bad meme, only "elites" who assimilated were those who were sent to rule Ruthenian territories. Those who stayed in Lithuania spoke Lithuanian/Polish. Not a single Grand Duke was Ruthenian prior Union.

>>2018131

I never said Lithuanians didn't let them practice Islam. I said Commonwealth let them practice a different religion that Catholicism. Much more distant than orthodoxy.

>then some were later brought after campaigns of Vytautas

Slaves. Yeah. People in no position to demand shit.

>Not a single Grand Duke was Ruthenian prior Union.

Of course. Just spoke the language, had document compiled in the language and took on ruski names.

You know what;s revisionist? "Wah wah, Poles tried to assimilate us!!!"

>>2018173
>Slaves. Yeah. People in no position to demand shit.

Yeah they were such slaves.


>People in no position to demand shit.
Who do you think realistically could demand shit from King/Grand Duke in medieval times? Are you dense?

> Towards the end of the 14th century, another wave of Tatars – this time, Muslims, were invited into the Grand Duchy by Vytautas the Great. These Tatars first settled in Lithuania proper around Vilnius, Trakai, Hrodna and Kaunas [5] and later spread to other parts of the Grand Duchy that later became part of Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth.

>Beginning in the late 18th and throughout the 19th century the Lipkas became successively more and more Polonized. The upper and middle classes in particular adopted Polish language and customs (although they kept Islam as their religion), while the lower ranks became Ruthenized. At the same time, the Tatars held the Lithuanian Grand Duke Vytautas (Wattad in Tatar, or "defender of Muslims in non Muslim lands"), who encouraged and supported their settlement during the 15th century, in great esteem, including him in many legends, prayers and their folklore.

Post more I need more revionism.

>>2018218

I don't really care about tatars' status, since the main arguement was they were allahu snackbar. Maybe I read it wrong ages ago.

Its good we can admit we were wrong. Like when you dont adress the Belorussification of your dukes. :^)

>>2018290
>Belorussification
>Belrusian identity or language existing in GDL times

KEK

>>2017948
Russiae in Latin is Russia, and it's in Latin name of the province.

Also:

Czech: russian=ruský
Slovak: russian=ruský
Russian: russian=russkij
Croatian: russian=ruski
Bulgarian russian=ruski

rosyjskie is derivative from Rosja (Rossija), but the word "Rossija" apperead only in 16th century and became widespread only in 18th century.
So word "rosyjskie" appeared in Polish language much later than 15th century when the province was named.

>>2018329
Rus is literally same shit as Russia with Latin suffix ending -ia, like it is added to many country names, BulgarIA, MacedonIA etc.

>>2018329

Grody Czerwieńskie were fist recorded in Rus sources, Пoвѣcть вpeмѧньныхъ лѣтъ, to be taken away from Poles in 981 by Ruthenians and then retaken in 110 or so. In 1031 they were taken by Rus again and the resident Lechitic people were supposedly resettled near Kiev so they wouldn't try to separate again. That's how that area was joined to the Red Rus realm.

So basically you were the original aggressors and Poles were natives. The rRus chronicle even says about the Rus forces "they devastated the lechite land". Not that a ruski fuck would ever acknowledge that.

>>2016777
>In fact it was Russians who were the cucks, not converting you poles to orthodoxy for one.
Do you realize that Poland was a more or less a homogenous nation state since 10th century? It's one of the countries with the strongest national identity in Europe, it's impossible to convert them to anything, many tried, all failed.

It's like trying to converting the French to be German or something, makes 0 sense.

>>2016802
>> Moscow is the only nominally independent principality
Moscow wasn't nominally independent, it was a vassal of the Golden Horde.

>>2018445
Vyatichi tribe were also called Lechitic in the same source and they founded Moscow city. So what?

>>2018572

So Moscow is a bit further appart from Poland than Grody Czerwieńskie and the chance its the same people grows approximately. You don't address the other stuff either.

>>2018329
russian = rosyjski
ruthenian = ruski

>>2018658
Again, Polish language changed since that time. Word "rosyjski" didn't exist in 15th century and "ruski" meant russian.

>>2018726
no, ruski meant ruthenian

there was no Russia in 15th century, there was only Ruthenia(Ruś)

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>>2016234
Because all lands belong to Poland.

>>2018726
I think Poles knew their shit, when they used to call part of their kingdom "Ruthenia(Ruś)".
Obvious part of "Modern Russians" would be called "Moskale" back then, not "Ruskie". And even later, "Russia" would be still called "Moskwa"

>>2018738
So Ruthenia(Rus) existed in 15th century.
Tell me, does Ruthenia(Rus) exist now?
If yes, then where?
If no, then in what year it disappeared?

>>2019510
>If no, then in what year it disappeared?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truce_of_Andrusovo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitions_of_Poland

>>2019510
Ruś(Ruthenia) - Ukraine and Belarus.
Rosja(Russia) - Russia.

We differentiate between "ruski"(Ruthenian) and "rosyjski"(Russian). Where's Ruthenian language now? It got replaced of course.

>>2019519
You gave links to articles about 4 events. What should we understand from that?
Poland was Ruthenia? And it disappeared after partitioning?

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>>2019711
>We differentiate
Yes, of course
διαίρει kαὶ βασίλευε diaírei kài basíleue - dīvide et īmpera - divide and rule

Sorry, it's a few centuries late for Poland to rule.

>>2019713
And where is Galicia? Austria was Galicia? Did it disappear after WW1?

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>>2019841
>>2019841
Around here (picture)
Galicia belonged to Austria.
No, it still exist.

>>2019770
it's a common knowledge that Ruthenians=/=Russians

I don't think even Russians think so, they just claim legitimacy

It's like saying Franks=French people

>>2019711
>Ruś(Ruthenia) - Ukraine and Belarus.
>Rosja(Russia) - Russia.

So Novgorod, first city of Rus is not in Rus in Polish language.
Rus is only a part of ancient Rus later owned by Poland.
I would say your language is bent for manipulation with history and revisionism

>Where's Ruthenian language now? It got replaced of course.
And where is Old Polish language now? It got replaced by modern Polish language where Rus is not Rus.

>>2020006
>>it's a common knowledge that
Ruthenians=/=Russians
Ruthenia is Latin name for territories of ancient Rus which included modern Russia core territory. So ancient Russians also lived in Ruthenia. How will you call people who live in Ruthenia? Ruthenians obviously if you are using Latin terms.

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>>2020035
>Rus is only a part of ancient Rus later owned by Poland.
That would be Red Ruthenia. There were others.

"Pierogi ruskie", are known in historical region of Red Ruthenia(Ruś Czerwona). So now, in modern Poland, Slovakia and Ukraine. Also, they are unknown (or very rare) in Russia.
And that's dish from medieval times. So it seems, that was the very moment, when modern Polish replaced Old Polish.

>>2020167
why does pierogi need to be inserted anally

>>2016832
They are not my friends

>>2020221
Uh, poor guy, his mom&dad purposefully trained him to eat wrong, as a joke.

>>2020167
White Rus also was part of Poland.

Pierogi (pirogi) is a dish of Russian cuisine since ancient times. There are many kinds of them.

>>2020035
>So Novgorod, first city of Rus is not in Rus in Polish language.
The fuck? Of course it is. It's just we don't call that Rus' "Russia".

And it's not our pecularity and it's not us trying to revision history(quite a ridiculous claim from you, if anything Moscow was trying to revision history by claiming Rus' as it's own sphere of influence) even English differentiates between these two and even Anglo scholars clearly stress out that Russia=/=Ruthenia and these names shouldn't be used interchangeably. That's why no scholar would call say that in 10th century there existed a state of "Russia" in Eastern Europe.

Vodka from Poland is better than from Russia, even if you drink em together with Polanders

>>2022153
In 1844 Karl Ernest Claus, Russian scientist of German descent, discovered new chemical element and named it Ruthenium in honor of his country Russian Empire (one of Russia's Latin names is Ruthenia). Its atomic number is 44. The same story is with Gallium discovered by Paul Emile Lecoq de Boisbaudran in 1875 and named from Gallia, one of Latin names for France while element named Francium was discovered only in 1939.

>>2022623
It doesn't fucking matter.

Russians tried to tie Ruthenia to them since Muscovy was renamed 'Russia'

>>2022651
Muscovy was obviously tied with Ruthenia, it was a part of it. And clearly Russia is a successor of Ruthenia/Kievan Rus'. But they are not the same. Even if countries with a "competing" claim on Ruthenian legacy(Belarus, Ukraine) didn't exist it still wouldn't be the same. Ruthenia was a medieval state inhabited by East Slavs and the name of "Russia" is derived from it.

It has absolutely nothing to do with historical revisionism(and as I said if anyone is doing it it's the Russians themselves), it's like no one is saying that the Franks are just the French people - it isn't considered correct.

>>2020035
>And where is Old Polish language now? It got replaced by modern Polish language where Rus is not Rus.
I would like to point out that Ruthenian language still exists, and is not the same as Russian.

>>2023039
You are right that Ruthenia is historical name and Russians have full rights on their historical ancestry as the heirs. Ukrainians and Belarusian have the same rights. Only while Russia and BelaRus continue to keep them them, Ukraine decided to discard them in most parts, they don't call themselves Rus people anymore. It's their own choice.
And French people have full rights on the names of Gauls and Franks because they were their ancestors. Those names are still used as synonyms of French people in our days.

>>2020167
>"Pierogi ruskie", are known in historical region of Red Ruthenia(Ruś Czerwona). So now, in modern Poland, Slovakia and Ukraine. Also, they are unknown (or very rare) in Russia.
t.butthurt pole

>>2023045
>I would like to point out that Ruthenian language still exists, and is not the same as Russian.
Do you mean Rusyn language? It was called Ruthenian in Austrian Empire. It's not the same as medieval language.

>>2023236
>And French people have full rights on the names of Gauls and Franks because they were their ancestors.
The fuck are you on about even? Yes they have the rights to claim their ancestry from Gauls and the Franks but they have no rights to call themselves "Franks" because they simply aren't them. They are French. The same with Russians. They aren't Ruthenians, they are Russians(modern nationality derived from Kievan Rus).

>>2016234
Because of Wilno and Lwów,

>>2023617
>but they have no rights to call themselves "Franks"

They do, those Franks culturally/linguistically assimilated within modern French population same as Gauls.

Franc -> Français
It looks like just a mutation of language.
That means "Franç" is archaic form of "Français". Using of archaic form adds some context, but there are no rules forbidding to use it instead of modern word.

>>2023778
>>2023901
Holy fucking shit.

What are you even talking about? Look at your posts dude.

Would you ever call nationals of France "Franks"?

No.

Franks were medieval people. French are modern nationality. Period.

>>2023912

>French are modern nationality

>>2023912
Those are two different people you replied to and you're a retard, and French people and France itself also formed in medieval times, kys retard. I'm not even French but you're a dumb fuck.

>>2023936
>>2023954
nice samefag

Ruthenians=/=Russians
Franks=/=French

how is that so difficult to comprehend?

>>2024028
It is for revisionist pigs apparently.

Russia didn't exist prior to 1500/600s. And no amount of WE-WUZING will change that.

>>2024039
>>Russia didn't exist prior to 1500/600s
The same way as Poland didn't exist before 1918.

>>2024158
>The same way as Poland didn't exist before 1918.
But it's named "Poland" since 966(some argue even earlier), you baiting nonce.
It never changed its name.

>>2024028
Is it difficult to understand that Ruthenia is just Latin translation of Rus? Rus is known since IX century and exists till our days.

>>2024164
Russians still call their land land Rus like they did thousand years ago.

And Poland changed its formal name many times. For instance since 1807 till 1815 it was called Duchy of Warsaw.

>>2024227
Yeah and?

It was founded as "Poland", not "Muscovy"

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>>2024227
>>2024246
>And Poland changed its formal name many times
We did not change our name. In 1806 there was no Poland, in 1806 there was Duchy of Warsaw, which wasn't created by Poles but the French who did not want to piss off Prussia.
Also one """example""" is not enough, why don't you type the rest?

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>>2016234
Areas aroud Lwów and Wilno had Polish majority though. That's why I think the variant "B" of the Curzon line would be the most righteous.

>>2024284
>>examples
Republic of the Two nations
Polish People's Republic

>>2024416
>Republic of the Two nations
Poland-Lithuania
POLAND

>Polish People's Republic
Still Poland.

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>>2024416
>Republic of the Two nations
Actually we had several official names: the Republic; Republic-Poland; Republic of Polish Kingdom; the Crown of Polish, Lithuanian and Ruthenian Nations. Really makes you think, huh?
>Polish People's Republic
Keyword: Polish. Also not created by Poles.

On the contrary, there was no "Russian" state before Russian Tsardom :^)

>>2024416
>Republic of the Two nations
Nope.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Lithuanian_Commonwealth#Name

Since baptism in 966 it was always Poland or <something>+Poland like for example Kingdom of Poland, Republic of Poland etc aside from the short period of time when existed Duchy of Warsaw which was French puppet state and didn't even have all Polish land and people in it's borders.

Having that said, what was the name of a country is completely irrelevant.

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>>2016234
We simply wanted to repolonize and recatholicize Polish peasants who got russified and converted to orthodoxy during partitions

>>2024186
Rus'=/=Russia

>>2017508
>spoke Lithuanian
No, he didn't. His first language was Ruthenian, later he spoke Polish.

>>2017715
>Even 1x1 it would have got raped by either Austria/Prussia/Russia
kek
>that delusion and selfhate of dumb żmudzin scum

>>2017715
>Even 1x1 it would have got raped by either Austria/Prussia/Russia.
Source?

>>2024468
>>On the contrary, there was no "Russian" state before Russian Tsardom :^)
There were many Russian states before Tsardom: handful of Great Principalities and Novgorod Republic

>>Also not created by Poles.
Your current state is also not created by Poles.

>>2024638
Poland=/=Europe

>>2024767
>Your current state is also not created by Poles.
Oh but it is.

Commieshits were kicked out of Poland and the new republic was created.
>>2024775
?

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>>2017932
>>2018329
>>2018726
>>2019510
>>2019770
Modern "Russia" has nothing to do with Rus just like "Germany" has nothing to do with ancient Germania. Deal with it, moskal

>>2019711
>It got replaced of course
By what?
It wasn't replaced by anything, it evolved into Belarussian and Ukrainian

>>2024822
You really should return Silesia, Pomerania and Eastern Prussia to Germany, Belostok to Belarus, Red Rus to Ukraine. You have no rights on that lands, your state was created only 1989 by Solidarnost, you have no past before that year.

>>2024896
>You really should return Silesia, Pomerania and Eastern Prussia to Germany, Belostok to Belarus, Red Rus to Ukraine. You have no rights on that lands, your state was created only 1989 by Solidarnost, you have no past before that year.
?

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>>2024896
>this whole post

>>2016741

they look the same except one is slightly cloudier.

>>2025023
What so funny?
Silesia, Pomerania, Eastern Prussia, part of Brandenburg and Danzig were stolen by Soviets and given to Commie State.
Commie State has nothing in common with Poland, it was not the state of Poles. Poles should give the lands back if they are fair people and want to be true allies with Germany.

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>>2025323
>stolen

>Poles should give the lands back if they are fair people and want to be true allies with Germany

>>2016234
>>they were compensated with equally big ethnically polish territories after WW2
You mean compensated with ethnically German territories.
Because all ethnically Polish territories were given to Poland already after WW1.

>>2025580
Yeah, that's why this happened
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesian_Uprisings#Third_Silesian_Uprising

>>2017464
It's a Polish dynasty, because it started as a separate dynasty from Gediminids after Jogaila became King of Poland.

>>2017508
>according to Długosz.
I would take his accounts sceptically, for he was known to despise Jogaila.

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>>2025680
And? Silesia was partitioned between Poland and Germany after uprisings according to the will of local population. They had a plebiscite.

>>2024667
Nope. It's attested in chronicles that in Conference of Lutsk they spoke in Lithuanian with Vytautas in front of Sigismund because they didn't want him to understand because he knew Ruthenian. Dlugosz also said he spoke Lithuanian and personally Christianized people, because no one could understand the priests he brought from Poland. Butthurt Polish cuck.

>>2016234
It looks more aesthetic on a map, and that's the only thing that counts.

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>>2026723

>>2026111
I would say Jagiellonian dynasty betrayed their Lithuanian identity and sold Lithuania to Poland.
Swedes were lucky, they kicked Sigismund Vasa out.

>>2016789
>Because Kievan Rus doesn't have anything to do with Muscovy you absolute fucking cretin.
It certainly does, because Muscovy derived from it, but admittedly, it was never one of it's chief city-states.

One more thing, the term "Kievan Rus" is only used as a historic term to refer to a period of time, the country's proper name is Rus' or Ruthenia.

>>2017900
>They were the Lithuanians. Lithuanian elites turned Belorussian by the time they forged a union with Poland. They spoke the language as natives
They weren't, they've merely seized control over several Russian city-states in the wake of the first Mongol invasion of Russia/Rus.

>>2018738
That doesn't mean that Russia didn't derive from the Rus.

>>2017701
A major source of regional stability and the Eastern bulwark of Catholic Christianity is a"backwater" to you?The only ones who'd say that are the British and the Germans.For nearly 127, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was one of the most powerful states in the known world and a major contributor to the arts and science throughout the Renaissance and the period of Enlightenment.

>>2017726
That is because they had a standing professional army, they didn't forcefully recruit peasants and send them into death when they start protesting against unfair treatment.

>>2017477
>>2017464

His descendants were thoroughly polonized, both genetically and culturally.

>>2017513
A response to your disastrous Germanic attempts of revising our history and intentionally denying our part in European history and role in the formation of Europe.

> And starting world wars
You are sorely misled if you believe that anyone sane would ever agree to your deplorable offers of peace, especially if they intentionally conceived as unrealistic and downright humiliating, for you to pretend that it wasn't your intention from the start to initiate a devastating conflict, but to merely respond with violence on violence.

>>2017670
And that makes them a Polish dynasty, because they were founded in Poland, for the purpose of ruling in Poland?

>>2026847
>Not a single drop of Polish blood
>genetically
pants on head retarded post

but it's svetovid so no surprise

>>2016687
Certainly not.

>>2016679
The vast majority of the Russian population is of ethnic Russian descent, some 80-81% of it.

>>2026852
Not a single drop of Polish blood?The immediate line of Jagiełło was polonized through his marriage with Jadwiga, a Polish queen.His first regent, Kęstutis
even continued the practice of intermarrying with Polish nobility to solidify the claims of his house.

> so no surprise
Keep it up, most of you here are only capable of that.

>>2026876
You should look up Jadwiga's ancestry and Jagiello only had female issue with Jadwiga and she died when she was barely 21 days old. Mother of his male heir Casimir Jagiellon and Wladyslaw III was Sophia Halshany who was Lithuanian(culturally that family was Orthodox). Also Jadwiga didn't speak Polish she and Jagiello didn't even speak common language.


>Jadwiga and her husband did not speak a common language, but they cooperated closely in their marriage.

>>2026895
It seems you're undeniably right, this'll be the last time I trust Polish takes on the early Jagiellons.

>>2025323
>>2024896

They certainly shouldn't, because prior to the Partitions, deportations and Germanization of Poles in Western and Northern Poland, the lands you speak of, with the exception of Eastern Prussia were unanimously Polish.

>Commie State has nothing in common with Poland
And Germany has nothing to do with all the Polish territories that Prussia had gained during the Partitions of Poland.

>>2025580
They became "ethnically German" after the native Poles were all but forced out of them and replaced with colonists from Saxony and Prussia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_deportations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanisation_of_Poles_during_the_Partitions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Partition_of_Poland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitions_of_Poland

>>2026913
>the lands you speak of, with the exception of Eastern Prussia were unanimously Polish.
They were not Polish, they were Slavic. Do you want all Eastern Germany too? Because Slavs lived there in ancient times.

>Prussia had gained during the Partitions of Poland.
Those territories were returned after WW1

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_deportations
>30,000 Poles with Austrian or Russian citizenship were deported
What's wrong with that?

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanisation_of_Poles_during_the_Partitions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Partition_of_Poland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitions_of_Poland
>https://en.wikipedia.org
As I said those territories were returned to Poland after WW1

>>2026963
>They were not Polish, they were Slavic.
Categorically false, the Polish identity encompassed all of those territories, with the exception of the northernmost parts of Pomerania.

>Do you want all Eastern Germany too?
No, just Poland.

>Those territories were returned after WW1
Not Western and Northern Poland, territories which were largely depopulated of Poles after the Partitions were finally concluded.

>What's wrong with that?
Treating them as aliens in their native lands and deporting them as mere cattle under false pretense.

>As I said those territories were returned to Poland after WW1
And as I've said, not Western and Northern Poland, territories that were parts of Poland since the baptism of their first Christian ruler.

>https://en.wikipedia.org
Unlike your "alternative" encyclopedias, Wikipedia has the decency to list their numerous sources in the reference section.

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>>2026985
>Polish identity
Polish and Germans were allies in subjugating other Western Slavs, then fought with each other, Poland won West Prussia and made East Prussia into vassal.

>No, just Poland.
Oh, you are so generous.

>Not Western and Northern Poland, territories which were largely depopulated of Poles after the Partitions were finally concluded.
Compare maps of Poland before Partitions and before WW2. Borders with Germany are practically the same.

>Treating them as aliens
They were aliens, citizens of other states.

>baptism of their first Christian ruler.
You know where you can shove your baptism to. Religion was used as political tool in those times.

>Unlike your "alternative" encyclopedias
It not me who brought wiki first

>>2027141
>Polish and Germans were allies in subjugating other Western Slavs, then fought with each other, Poland won West Prussia and made East Prussia into vassal.

That only counts for Western Slavs within the territory of the Holy Roman Empire and for the record, the Poles were the ones who've built everything that stands in Poland, with the exception of most districts in Toruń and the protestant churches, Prussian youth centers and graveyards that pollute modern-day Poland.

>Oh, you are so generous.
Just objectively realistic, desire for foreign territories is mainly a Germanic and Arab trait.

>Compare maps of Poland before Partitions and before WW2. Borders with Germany are practically the same.

Certainly not, considering that the holdings of the Teutonic Order were that of defunct religious organisation, not a legitimate state.

>They were aliens, citizens of other states.
They were natives whose country was torn asunder by a largely illegal partition which caused massive diplomatic unrest in 18th century Europe.

>You know where you can shove your baptism to. Religion was used as political tool in those times.

The baptism of their ruler didn't just solidify his claim, but also the territorial integrity of his country.

>It not me who brought wiki first
Cheap semantics aside and attempts of ridiculing my sources with ironic greentexting instead of actually refuting them with your own, Wikipedia at least provides us with a plethora of sources in it's reference sections, it's far more reliable than any "alternative" Germans takes on Polish history.

>>2027193
>>That only counts for Western Slavs within the territory of the Holy Roman Empire
Teoutones were invited by Poles.

>> the Poles were the ones who've built everything that stands in Poland
??? I don't quite understand sentence. What happened with buildings of German period? Or you just don't like them?

>>Teutonic Order was not a legitimate state.
It was converted to Prussia, a legitimate state.

>>they were natives
Partitions happened a century before deportations. So they were not natives, but working migrants. Like our says Polish in EU countries.

>>The baptism
Religion was also pretext for war.

>>ridiculing my sources with ironic greentexting
that was citation form wiki you gave link to

I am not against wiki actually.

>>2026815
>That doesn't mean that Russia didn't derive from the Rus.
I never said Russia didn't derive from Rus. All I'm saying is that the medieval state of Rus' and Rus' people can't be called "Russian".

>>2028157
It's the same nation that evolved through the history. Russians are direct descendants of Rus' people. I don't know about migration of other nations to their territory. Using your logic I can say that ancient Poland was inhabited by Polacks, not by Poles.

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>>2026723
>It's attested in chronicles
I'd like to see actual citations from these chronicles instead of your questionable interpretations.
What is written there?

1. Statement by author that they were speaking "Lithuanian" language, something like:
"Jagiełło and Witold speak Lithuanian language"

or

2. There's an actual quote in the language they were speaking

If the former, then well, I have bad news for you. In those times "Lithuania" and "Lithuanian" meant something very different than today, so this chronicle cannot be treated as proof that Jagiełło knew Lithuanian in the sense you are thinking of (i.e Baltic Lithuanian language you speak today).

>>2026895
>Also Jadwiga didn't speak Polish she and Jagiello didn't even speak common language.
>Jadwiga and her husband did not speak a common language, but they cooperated closely in their marriage
Source for these claims

>>2026963
>>2027141
>They were not Polish
Yes, they were.

>Polish and Germans were allies in subjugating other Western Slavs
No, they weren't.
Poland as a Catholic state indeed took part in the campaign against Veletians once, but it was a coalition of Christian countries against pagans, not specifically Polish-German alliance against Western Slavs.
After that, Poland never had any cooperations with HRE. Overall, Poland had much more wars with Germans than with any Western Slavs back then.

>Borders with Germany are practically the same
They evidently are not. Are you blind? There are a lot of places with Polish majority outside of Poland.

>They were aliens, citizens of other states
So were Germans after 1945 and that's why they got kicked out.

>Religion was used as political tool in those times
And how is this relevant to the point of discussion?

(1/2)

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>>2027921
>Teoutones were invited by Poles
They got settled by Polish duke in a tiny bit of land called Ziemia Chełmińska under certain conditions to complete certain tasks. Unfortunately they soon broke agreements and started to chimp out against Poland so they got removed.

>It was converted to Prussia, a legitimate state
It was converted to Ducal Prussia, vassal of Poland, which formally wasn't heir of the Teuronic Order.

>Partitions happened a century before deportations. So they were not natives, but working migrants. Like our says Polish in EU countries.
>when occupation continues for more than 100 years, natives cease to be natives
Kek

>Religion was also pretext for war
Whose petext and for war with whom?


If you want to persist in your ignorance and/or intentional manipulation and continue to claim otherwise, at least try to provide any sources next time.

(2/2)

>>2026985
>with the exception of the northernmost parts of Pomerania
There are no any exceptions. All those people were and considered themselves Poles (or Lechites if you will, which is synonym).
If you are thinking about Kashubs, they're basically as "non-Polish" as Silesian try harders, in other words, while unfortunately brainwashed and distanced from Poland a bit in 19th century, they still are and always have been Poles-Lechites and no amount of Kraut revisionism and attempts to dismember Poland will change this fact.

>>2028489
>Using your logic I can say that ancient Poland was inhabited by Polacks, not by Poles
You can't, because there's no analogy here.

>>2028773
>(1/2)
>it was a coalition of Christian countries against pagans
>>2028782
>(2/2)
>Whose pretext and for war with whom?
Are you a troll?

>>2028773

See.

>>2026748

You think they didn't know difference between Lithuanian language and Ruthenian? You're confusing two things language and nationality. Yes all slavs/jews were called Lithuanians as in sense they're citizens of Grand duchy of Lithuania Litvaks/Litvins but Old Church Slavonic or Ruthenian language was never called Lithuanian you fucking dumb cretin.

You think Dlugosz didn't differentiate between Lithuanian and Ruthenian languages? You think Jagiello Christianized pagan Lithuanians in Ruthenian language? Should I fucking quote Jagiello himself to prove that you're dumb?

Christ you Poles always so full of shit and revionism.

Jogaila to the papal legate in 1421 (Lites ac Res gestae inter Polonos Ordinemque Cruciferorum. tomus tertius. Posnaniae, 1856)

"Samogitia and Sudovia (...) are an important part of the Lithuanian Principality and belong to the principality;
...
The inhabitants of this land speak Lithuanian. And they do not have any other language than Lithuanian.
...
Samogitia, that is, in Lithuanian - Lithuania lower."
Somehow people in Samogitia which was barely Christianized about 8 years ago and 1421 they already spoke Ruthenian while in reality that region pretty much had zero contact with Ruthenian lands, also you think Jagiello just called it Lithuanian when he meant actually meant to say Ruthenian language and said that people actually don't speak any other language then Ruthenian in Samogitia?

How the fuck did he know what Samogitia or Žematija literally translates to in Lithuanian then? No one's fucking denying he also knew Ruthenian language, but stop being in denial that he also spoke Lithuanian you gay cunt.

>>2029425
And the actual quote.


Nos vero in lithwanico diximus ad vos: domine rex, non festinetis in isto facto, consiliamur prius desuper cum prelatis et baronibus vestris, et nos similiter facturi sumus. Ad quod vos iterum dixistis: quomodo vobis placeret et gauderetis, immo ad hoc nimium essetis affecti; pro quo dominus Romanorum rex cum sua domina consorte vestre serenitate sunt regraciati, et ita a vobis decessimus, prelatis et baronibus consiliariis vestris ad vos in consilium intrantibus.

Codex epistolaris Vitoldi, 1882, p. 816.


You can eat shit, revionist cuck.

>>2029450
Dlugosz in 1413

Since none of the spiritual men who came together with King Vladislav in Samogitia, were not able to speak Samogitian, Vladislav, King of Poland, was forced to preach to the people of Samogitia faith and instill true religion.
(Et quoniam nemo ex viris spiritualibus, qui cum Rege Wladislao Samagittiam advenerant, linguam Samagitticam noverat exprimere, Wladislaus Poloniae Rex ad populum Samagittiae pro fide et religione orthodoxa suscipienda declamare coactus est.)

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>>2016585

>>2027921
>Teutons were invited by Poles

And were given sustenance and land to complete their mission, they were promptly removed after they've decided to chimp out on their greatest benefactor in the region, there is also a good chance that they've forged the the Treaty of Kruszwica in 1230, according to which Konrad granted Chełmno Land to the Teutonic Knights and the Order of Dobrzyń. By this donation disclaiming any enfeoffment, Konrad established the nucleus of the State of the Teutonic Order. The document does not exist however, and it is believed that it was never signed and the Order might have forged it

>What happened with buildings of German period
They're insignificant in numbers outside Thorn and most sections of Gdansk.

>Partitions happened a century before deportations
Grasping at fringe semantics shan't make your point any better, the Partitions of Poland have laid the foundation for the Prussian deportations of Poles from Prussian-occupied Poland, their "passports" were nothing more but justification for a continued act of displacement of a native people.

>So they were not natives
Polish are native to Poland, Germans aren't.

>It was converted to Prussia, a legitimate state.
To Ducal Prussia, vassal of Poland, which formally wasn't heir of the Teutonic Order.

>Religion was also pretext for war
That doesn't change the fact his baptism and that of his country had legitimized his positions and the borders of his country, stop grasping at straws, I'm not into responding to tabloid-tier responses.

>that was citation form wiki you gave link to
That somehow disproves the information these links hold, even though their reference sections are basically teeming with traceable sources?

>>2029091
Stop avoiding the discussion by focusing on cherry-picked statements and respond on his argument in a proper manner.

>>2029425
During most of Lithuanian history, Ruthenian was their literary language, a good portion of them had to know how to use it.