Was Athenian democracy really a democracy, even in ancient time,

Popular assembly of Athens wasn't voted in office, they're were chosen randomly.

>>1992414
it was a shit democracy; that doesnt mean direct democracy now would be the same; it might be different. (though it probably still would be shit)

>>1992414
>I mean, only 10-20% of the Athenian population could vote, that's not to far from the ratio of nobility vs commoners in medieval times,
It's also similar to the percentage of eligible voters in early America. Was that not a democracy? (Okay, yes, it was a fucking republic, but you know what I mean.)
>then it [medieval monarchy] wasn't considered a democracy
Medieval monarchies aren't considered democracies because THEY WEREN'T DEMOCRACIES. The aristocracy may have wielded power and had special privileges and rights but they did not determine their governments' policies by voting on issues or electing representatives. The states that did use such a system, we usually do refer to as "republics" etc, even though much of the population was disenfranchised.

A flawed, incomplete democracy is still a democracy, and a monarchy without a voting system or parliament is not, even if the country is relatively egalitarian.

>>1992414
Athens didn't have periokoi, that was a Spartan-specific group

>>1992414
>that's not to far from the ratio of nobility vs commoners in medieval times
Maybe in Poland where nobles were 10%, but in most of Europe the nobility and clergy were 1-2% max

>>1992893
Tha fact is that Athens had a huge amount of permanent non citizens living for generations in the city state and having no right to vote due being born at some point from a non citizen.

>>1992971
Spartans had a legit aristocracy though. As in, they got assigned helots and allotted land to them, and had it so that they weren't pre-occupied by a career year-round in order to serve on a campaign. Sparta also didn't have frequent assemblies either like Athens.

The biggest difference between Periokoi and Metics is that Metics had no obligation to stay in Athens--they could leave at any time if they wanted. Pierokoi were however tied to the land--the Spartans didn't want foreign residents to do the trading and other commercial jobs and instead made the Pierokoi do it.

>>1992414
It was definitely a democracy, perhaps one of the "truest" ever. You state that only 10 - 20% of the population could vote, but that's still a lot of people. And those people would also be randomly selected by lot to serve in their version of congress.

Orators had to master the skill of moving crowds of people to get their actions approved. Each vote would have been hard won. This kept everyone involved in the city, a nationalit style bond that pushed people to do things for the greater good.

This meant, of course, that they had some seriously horrible cases of mob rule. For instance, towards the end of the pelopennesian war the Athenians won this massive naval victory. Unfortunately, they failed to retrieve the bodies of those who died due to a storm. When they returned? The mob sentenced all the generals to death. Athens lost the war within months.


idk it's probably one of the most fascinating experiments of man kind. But for a brief period it was without a doubt a democracy.

>>1993346
>Unfortunately, they failed to retrieve the bodies of those who died due to a storm.
No. They failed to rescue ANYONE from the lost ships. The literally let several hundred Athenians drown.

>storm
The storm came later.

>>1992414

Dem boi pussy.

>>1993346
Today's oligarchy is still a lot of people, and they still don't form a significant portion of the population. Would you call a democracy "the truest" if the nation's Corporate owners personally voted which one of their equal income friends would be a minister while the middle and lower classes have no say?

>>1993349
All the generals went to stop the Spartans from re-grouping with another blockading fleet that was in a siege against one of Athen's subjects, and they left behind two Captains with 40 ships to rescue them. Both of the Captains were stopped by the storm and powerful winds.

If they fallen overboard during the Battle, they probably drowned before it was over with. Most of the post-battle survivors probably weren't even drowning circumstances, but stranded on their disabled boats or debris that would've got sunk by the storm. But we have no way of knowing this exactly, as we only have Xenophon and Diodorus as detailed accounts for this battle, and from what I remember, their accounts differed on the battle (but I can't recall the post-battle rescue accounts were different). But Xenophon actually lived through the event, and probably was in Athens for the trials and possibly in the fleet as it was one of those special circumstances where every class was recruited on a triremes for a major battle, and says that they were prevented by powerful winds and a storm.

>>1992891
Athens is even more direct since they don't have to rely on a middle man (electoral college) to cast their votes for them

>>1993346

Only 25% of the population voted in the recent US election.

>>1992414
Idiots shouldn't be allowed to vote anyway, so sounds like a better system to me tbph

>>1992414

It all comes to how you define a 'citizen', and who should be able to vote.

Interesting to note, that the Athenians didn't vote for politicians, because they thought that voting for politicians was undemocratic and aristocratic, because rich and influential citizens would always win. Politicians were selected by sortition (lottery), like jury duty is in the united states.

It can be argued that the founding fathers intended for the republic to be aristocratic/undemocratic at its founding, but that's a different discussion.

Although everything the politicians tried to do would be voted on with direct democracy, each citizen votes. Rather than the politicians themselves deciding what the city would do.