/his/ how does a "push of pike" work? So you have

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>>1989416

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>>1989428

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>>1989429
Does this begin to answer your question?

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>>1989432

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>>1989439

>>1989428
>>1989429
>>1989432
So they did really go balls to the wall and fucking lock horns and just slaughter each other?

Gnarly

But with the push...would they just charge into the opposite side with their spears lowered?

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>>1989449
Pikes powered yes.

There were multiple schools of thought on how to do it best though. The landsknecht soldiers would typically hold the pike at the but end and try to 'pike fence' for a while at a distance. The Swiss held the pike somewhat further down the shaft and just ran into the enemy.

An English writer recommends the latter tactic because it means everyone can use their pike rather than only the first one or two ranks. He literally says that they front rank should do a single thrust and then drop their pike and rush onto the enemy with swords followed by the next rank doing the same.

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>>1989457
Lowered*

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>>1989460

>>1989457
this is so interesting honestly

so during a push guys would just drop pikes and going into regular infantry mode?

were there certain types of small swords they used...or large daggers?

must have been so insane to witness or survive

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>>1989464
Perhaps one of the more visceral pictures here.

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>>1989465
>so during a push guys would just drop pikes and going into regular infantry mode?

More or less, though this was by no means the standard tactic.

During the early 16th century they used what is called a Katzbalger.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katzbalger

It's a glorified meat cleaver with a rounded tip.


Bonus: Pic related is about Romans facing pikes, supposedly gave the Roman commander PTSD

>>1989457
what books do you recommend about this topic since you seem to know a lot?

>>1989479
I just picked up bits and pieces here and there. Some of it is from 16th century soldiers memoirs others from military theorists of that era.

>>1989485
gotcha

now that you mention the Katzbalger it makes a lot of sense I keep seeing it in pictures and always wondered what it was called

being in the front lines must have been ridiculous...almost like guaranteed death if you fought another phalanx formation or what have you

>>1989476
I'm gettng PTSD thinking of what it was like translating this from the original latin. Romans and their obsession with super long sentences

>>1989494
lol

How accurate is this depiction?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMEnBHef96c&t=313s

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>>1989490
Generally the survival rate for soldiers was quite high except for the losing side and some extremely hard fought battles.

5-10% for the winning side is typical. On top of that the first two or three ranks were mostly well armored veterans that received double pay; Hence Doppelsoldner. Often shown in modern art as wielding large two handed swords they primarily used pikes and guns.

>>1989512
so frontline men had the best armor which makes sense

how do you think the zweihanders were deployed? within the ranks of the pike/halberd men?

i always thought they used their large two handed swords to knock away pike poles and disrupt the enemy formation. is this correct?

>>1989510
Well the cavalry is clearly wearing rubber armor. Judging by their charge I reckon they practice it at least a few times so kudos to them.

That said pistol armed cavalry was not really intended to charge into a pike block wielding pistols. Not ride around it taking fire from muskets. The wankers didn't even both to draw their swords...


>>1989519
Zweihanders seem to have been used more or less like guys with halberds were. Round the center protection the banner. As you can see in the text they were occasionally dispatched away. When both pike blocks had fallen apart enough and people grabbed their sword it was time for such weapons to really inflict some carnage/.

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>>1989519
>>1989527

>>1989534
An English and if IIRC a french source mention halberds in the 5th rank too. In the English one they are mentioned as being placed there to stop cavalry that got past the pikes but I reckon they would be excellent to slaughter other pikemen too once the whole bunch became a bit more mingled like shown here >>1989512

>>1989534
the doppelsoldner in ranks 1-4 are guys with halberds/pikes but are just paid double due to the danger or their veteran skills?

is there specifically a line for guys with zweihanders? or are they just the occasional doppelsoldner?

I'm thinking about an age before gunpowder

>>1989547
Pikes. Only the 5th rank would be guys with halberds.

Them being paid double was a mixture of being veteran and having armour. Back in the day it was very much a case of bring your own weapons and armour, those with more armour were thus paid a higher wage. The same goes for firearms which were quite expensive early on compared to a pike, these guys were paid double too until one or two decades into the 15th century when guns became more common.

In the formation shown in >>1989534 the only guys with those giant swords were posted along the banner.

before gunpowder would put us before 1340 at least and 1250 if you take the first mention of it. At that point pikes did not often face each other.

>>1989558
>one or two decades into the 15th century

16th century*

>>1989558
so front lines guys with pikes and best armor
then pikes with no armor
few rows back guys with halberds and the double handed swords

then would it reverse back to the pikes

i guess what I'm trying to say is halberds and zweihanders in center of the formation...then your pikes out from there

so the formation could be attacked from any angle and stay strong?

>>1989567
well the picture in >>1989534 states that halberds were deployed in the 5th rank before an unarmored pikemen but I suppose they mixed things up occasionally.

The reason for having pikes on the front was because they could wipe away opposing infantry while those are the side and rear had more to do with being protected from a cavalry attack. That said most armoured and veteran soldiers would be at the front so attacking other infantry usually happened with that side.

Anyways I am going, this thread seems a little deserted.

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>>1989527
>Zweihanders seem to have been used more or less like guys with halberds were. Round the center protection the banner.
Here's a mid 16th century source on that matter, attributed to Erhard Schoen.

It says "Schlachtschwert un Helmparten" (War swords and halberds).

Mit den Schlachtschwerten halt wir drauff
Ob wurdt geschlagen unnser hauff
Und die Feindt wollten unns beschemen
Einprechen und das Fenlein nemen
Erst hawen wir mir freuden drein
Das Fenlein wir beschutzen fein
Weyl unser leib und leben werdt
Umb Dopelsolt drag wir Schl
achtschwert.

Her dret wir mit den Helmparten
Und muessen auff das Fenlein warten
Ob es der Feiyndt zu einer Seiten
Wolt mit dem greyssing Zeug befreiten
Den Schlach wir als die frumen Heldt
Das Ross und man zu poden Feldt
Die Kueriss wir in dapffer drennen
Darumb wir unns Dopelsoldner nennen


Vague translation attempt; I couldn't really read all of it:

With the war swords we attack
Even if our heap was beaten
And the enemy wants to shame us
Break in and take our little flag
First we joyfully hew into them
Protecting our little flag nicely
For our body and life's well being
For twice the pay (Dopelsolt) we carry the war
sword

Here we come with our halberds
And have to wait for our little flag
See if the enemy comes from a flank
To liberate it with his gruesome tools
We will beat him as faithful heroes
That horse and man falls to the ground
The armour we will courageously ?
That is why we call ourselves Doppelsoldner


Based on what I get from this, the two-handed swords were the shit hits the fan type weapon which was used when the formation broke and the enemy wanted to take the flag while the purpose of the halberd was to protect against enemy flanking manoeuvres - specifically mentioning cavalry and armour. Both the men carrying the two-handed swords as well as the halberdiers refer to themselves as Doppelsoldner in this text.

>>1989416
Then what?
They fucking slaughter each other until/unless the pikes get interleaved, and then slaughter other with sidearms while the veterans move up with halberds to start splitting skulls.

>I've heard that both sides would raise their pikes/halberds and charge into one another like a rugby scrum
No.


>Two pike units charging at one another without armor or shields just seems like certain death for the front lines and therefore pointless
If you're in the front ranks, it is.
front rank troops would often have armor. Shields don't matter. You can fence with a pike, and they did just that.

>>1989449
>would they just charge into the opposite side with their spears lowered?
that or they'd walk to contact and fence with them. Both were fucking bloodbaths.

>>1989465
People had everything from axes and knives to katzblaggers and longswords.

French Pike and Shot >Spanish Tercio
Prove me wrong
Pro tip: [spoiler]Rocroi[/spoiler]

>>1989863
Good find, I like it.

Were halberds called helmparten in High German?

>>1989416
Why hasn't anyone ever constructed massive portable wooden walls to trample enemy pikes with?

>>1989494
Germans have inherited that from them.

>>1991163
>>1989494
There's literally nothing wrong with 4 pages long sentences with 30 appositions.

t. Hegel

>>1991180
Strangely enough, I love reading Hegel.

>>1989927
>Rocroi
1647
>Cerignola
1503
The french had time to develop something better than the tercios

>>1989416
I heard during the English Revolutions that the common folk who were used as pike-men on both sides faked actually fighting each other, and just sat on the field looking at each other. Both sides hated who they were fighting for, so the didn't actually fight.

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>>1991656
Not really actually. Or well maybe.

For much of the Italian war they continued to score an occasional victory against the Habsburg lads. By the time it ended France plunged into civil war and they missed out on what Maurice of Nassau did.

remember that by roman times, the phalanx was already outdated
they replaced it with that modular/mobile shit; which - i presume - is what was the inheritance of feudal pike lines

>>1991075
It's most definitely Early Modern German. Whether it's a High- or Low German dialect I can't tell. At least in this particular one they're called like that.

>>1992256
What would be the literal translation to English?

>>1989428
It's funny when people think warfare was "less brutal" in past.

>>1992301
It's a name for the weapon which has no literal translation. When it comes to the etymology it is uncertain. "Barte" is a historical term for axe. When it comes to the "helm" or "hell", people aren't too certain. Some derive it from literally helm, because the axe was meant to be hewn on helmets, some say it derives from "Halle" (hall) since the weapon was carried by princely guards in the halls of palaces, others claim it stems from "hell" (bright/shiny) because it was a shiny axe, and others say it derives from "hellen" which is supposedly an old term for "battling", which would make the halberd a battle axe.