All memes aside, why do people say that these are the best

Video games and orientalism.

Japan makes a lot of video games and samurai movies.

>>1970007
They're definitely not. Only reason they were "folded 1000 times over" was because Japanese steel sucks donkey dick. It's all pig-iron.

Movies, video games and neckbeard weeaboos made it seem cool.

Average scimitar or longsword bests it out any day of the week.

>>1970028
But in reality, they weren't that good compares to other european swords?

because people don't know shit

>>1970007
Those are Hanzo swords?

>>1970007
An entire generation of kids grew up watching chinese cartoons and its associated propaganda

The steel is folded over in layers rather than forged as one solid piece.

File: Katana forging.jpg (58KB, 559x290px) Image search: [Google]

58KB, 559x290px

>>1970007
For the west: what this guy said >>1970028

BUT Actually, the Chinese and other Asians historically had a high opinion of Japanese swords. Let that sink in: the Chinese, who were more advanced than the Japanese in Metallurgy at the time (i.e. they had blast furnaces for one thing while the rest of the world made do with bellows.)

>"From the land of the Rising Sun comes precious swords across the eastern sea, the merchants of Yüeh fetch them. With scabbards of fragrant wood, sharkskin-covered, and bearing designs in silver and gold, trappings of brass and bronze; For a hundred pieces of gold (if you like such things) you can buy one And buckling that on your belt, defy all road side hags and devils"
-Poet/Historian/Politician Ouyang Xiu, ca 1060AD, Song Dynasty.

>"They (Japanese Pirates) disdain life and are bloodthirsty… The blades of the Japanese sabers are sharp and make Chinese swords look inferior."
-Riben Kao (Study of Japan), by General Li Yangong. On the subject of Japanese pirates in the 16th Century

In fact, the Katana led to a revival of two handed sword use in China. Having fought nomads for so fucking long, the Chinese have pretty much disdained their two handed swords in favor of one handers (more useful for mounted combat or carrying a spear/bow around). Their battles with Japanese rogues during the 1300's-1400's on the other hand impressed Chinese infantry commanders, who then revived the Zhangdao (long dao) and the Shuang Shou Jian (Two Handed Jian) swords.

Also Japanese swords were in high demand in the civilian weapons trade since the Song Dynasty up until Japan closed off in the 1600's. Even then Chinese smugglers imported Japanese blades, particularly ones made by known masters, which were treated as works of art by discerning Chinese customers.

File: Peidao.jpg (86KB, 1110x440px) Image search: [Google]

86KB, 1110x440px

>>1970070
Contd.

Also much of the fascination by Asians of the Japanese sword is basically the design. Continental Eastern Asia- following China mostly- had two kinds of swords: single handers and two handers. Single handers of both the single/double edged versions were perfect for cavalry usage, fighting on foot with a shield, or as a backup weapon for infantrymen. They however lacked the power of a two handed sword. The dedicated swordman's sword is the two hander: shit like the Changdao or the Shuang Shou Jian. Used by assault troops, foot bodyguards, they were more powerful than their one hander cousins but are too big to use in CQC or on horseback.

So when the Katana (or rather, the Tachi,) hit the Asian mainland in the 1100s via trade & pirates, everyone was blown away. In the risk of sounding like FutureWeapons guy, here was a sword whose geometry allowed for the power of a two hander sword, but the size was small enough for use as a single hander, and on horseback. An Asian Bastard Sword if you will. Elite Cavalrymen of the Ming & Qing period particularly loved the Wodao as they called it, since this meant that they can have a powerful two hander saber they can use even on horseback, and often you can see Ming & Qing heavy cavalry armed with a mix of Jian, Dao, and Wodao blades, based on preferences of the owners.

When it came out, it also influenced swordsmithing on the mainland Asia, particularly the return to two hander swords and experiments on hand/half swords.

>>1970070
>>1970095
Thank you, that was actually pretty interesting. How did the Chinese weapons were different from the Japesene ones, aesthetically speaking?

>>1970007
they look pretty kewl

Becuase for asia it was

File: Sageo Ropework.jpg (197KB, 640x640px) Image search: [Google]

197KB, 640x640px

>>1970136
Aesthetically not so much. The Katana emerged from the Sino-East Asian Aesthetics of gilt guards, lacquer fucking everywhere, rayskin covered grips bound with that diamond leather/silk grip.

However, AFAIK there has been NO Japanese sword with a Chinese style lacquered wood grip. The Japanese do not also use the Chinese method of hanging swords on their sides: the Chinese use the Sassanid Style double lugs on a sheath to pass a baldrick cord through, while the Japanese prefer a knotwork of cord (pictured) that mimics the Chinese Sassanid Lugs but in knots.

Also Japanese sheathes are roundish, while the Chinese sheathes are only roundish for the Dual edged sword. While for the Dao and Japanese Swords, they prefer using a boxy sheath with a protective endcap for the edge of the saber.

File: 1457220074722.jpg (404KB, 2562x1772px) Image search: [Google]

404KB, 2562x1772px

>>1970007

There were some western academics whose work exaggerated its cutting abilities.

unfortunate there as been a backlash as of late. The information is not much more accurate but now it goes in the opposite direction

>>1970168
Are they as good at cutting as a Scimitar or any normal curved sword from the middle east?

File: CWu1jr5WsAA9t6Q.jpg (21KB, 367x500px) Image search: [Google]

21KB, 367x500px

Heh, nothin' personal.

>>1970181
I no idea, They are good cutters but you dont need a great man cutter to kill people. Those ideas came from blade tests which were conducted on corpses, and they were more like durability tests. Any blade made with modern methods should outperform anything from back then.

They were a functional sword that fit the needs of the society that created them.

Because they were the only swords that (in the hands of a highly trained warrior) could actually cut through bullets. If we'd had them in the west gunpowder might never have taken off the way it did

>>1970199
That is the most Retard thing I have heard all year. Thanks.

>>1970227
He clearly was not serious, we cant have a discussion of katana or samurai without people spamming meme and stuff like this. I would report them if I though it would do any good.

That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Bastard Sword" bullshit that's going on in the d20 system right now. Katanas deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.
I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine katana in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my katana. Japanese smiths spend years working on a single katana and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind. Katanas are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a katana can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a katana could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash. Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Samurai and their katanas of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the katanas first because their killing power was feared and respected. So what am I saying? Katanas are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:

(One-Handed Exotic Weapon)
1d12 Damage
19-20 x4 Crit
+2 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon)
2d10 Damage
17-20 x4 Crit
+5 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Katanas in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = Katanas need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block.

>>1970095
You can'y use a Katana with just one hand.

File: Peidao with Japanese Import Blade.jpg (22KB, 427x625px) Image search: [Google]

22KB, 427x625px

>>1970340
Apparently you can.

Look, I'm no swordsman, but it was a common Chinese practice to halve what is to them, the overlong handles of imported Japanese Katanas. Why? It's because they get in the way of their bowcases and string up with the bowstring.

So Chinks ended up with Hand & Half Katanas.

File: Threadgill1-small.jpg (19KB, 237x298px) Image search: [Google]

19KB, 237x298px

>>1970340
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVA2Mph-Y88

You can, there are issues of course, but its fully possible and had to be done on horseback

>>1970340
>>1970382
Just like you can't use a longsword with one hand I suppose.
The tachi was supposed to be useable on horseback with one hand, but even the uchigatana and its descendants could be used on foot with one hand no problem. There are many (if not all) styles that used techniques with one hand to cut at the legs or simply to cut and thrust further, or while grappling with the enemy. Hell since there are a good deal of styles showing how to fight with your two swords simultaneously, that's a simple indicator that you can use a katana with one hand, while on foot.

Due to the convoluted process of making them. "The smiths spent months shaping and folding the steel, it must be the best sword ever!".

Kinda like those dinners where they dress the plates all fancy like. The make up of the plate and the fact the sauce is shaped into a heart won't make the food better.

>>1970593
i beg to differ

Because of this >>1970028

But then, there is a backlash and we end up with retarded people like this >>1970043 who err on the wrong side to look like cool anti-weeabos.

>>1970044
There were good Japanese swords and crap Japanese swords. There is a huge difference in the quality of sword that a powerful magnate like Shimazu Yoshihisa would use and what a random ronin would use.

>>1970007
Well they aren't, but they are still constructed with bloomery iron as the main resource, which is refined by hand into steel and then assembled into a blade, partially hardened etc, all by hand tools. It is an insane amount of craftsmanship and skill going into each single blade, which makes them valuable collectibles.
Each piece of steel is different and has the "handwritting" of the smith on it, and thanks to the high end polish you can actually "look into the steel" and appraise its beauty.

It is like a guy builds a car from scratch with hand tools only. Will the car be better than what runs off the line at Ford's? No, likely not, but it is way more valuable to many people.
Now thats why people collect them and pay high prices for them. So yeah, ignore every /k/atamite with his katana vs longsword bullshit, because thats pretty much missing the point. Also disregard all the "Japan had shitty iron" posts, thats just idiots spouting a meme whilst having no clue about ferro metallurgy themselves.

>>1970688
With what?

>>1970728
Not that guy, but I can assure you, there is not such thing as best sword. There are many soundly made sword designs, and then it comes down to who's the better fencer.

I do HEMA, I use steel feders with industrial steel blades, because they work and are mechanical sound and safe for training.
I do collect antique blades, I got mostly 19th century military pieces because thats what I can afford, but get an ultra hardon from (preferably German) 16th century blades.

However, you can actually spend hours looking at a handmade Japanese weapon, because, holly shit whats going on with this crystal structure, this fucking mirror polish, the lines and so on. All done by some old geezer who hammered the thing into existence from charcoal, river sand and and some dirty bloomery iron.

Thats amazing, and everybody who loves swords, collects or trains respects them for that. This "best sword" is mall ninja tier bullshit and needs to stop, at least on /his/.

File: sadamori pics 009.jpg (959KB, 3888x2592px) Image search: [Google]

959KB, 3888x2592px

>>1970751

>>1970728
you, asshole

File: TheReplacements.jpg (497KB, 1280x720px)

497KB, 1280x720px

>>1970755

>>1970070
>Chinese praising Barbarian craftsmanship
#problematic

File: Mixi Dao Egyptian Saber Ming Dynasty.jpg (25KB, 736x464px)

25KB, 736x464px

>>1970762
Hahahah no.

China's use of barbarian is pretty much referring to overall Civilization and internal beliefs. That said they do not grudge the physical products of the Barbarian.

Just look at how they pretty much considered western firearms as superior to their own- adopting western cannon designs wholesale and even inviting Jesuit-sponsored gunsmiths to make them for them, while still calling them barbarian.
Or the case of the Katana.
You know who else the Chinese thought made excellent swords? People in the Middle East they called "Mixi" (from the Chinese word Egyptian). Though most likely the Ottomans, the Mamluk or Damascus steel shit.

File: 1478968083460.jpg (3MB, 1990x3616px)

3MB, 1990x3616px

>>1970767
It was wootz, an indo-persian crucible steel that was later on used by many muslim empires.
And it is fucking beautiful steel alright.

File: 153.jpg (24KB, 920x420px)

24KB, 920x420px

>>1970776
At the same time, Indians themselves bought European made (mostly Italy and Germany) blades, called Firangi after their name for the Franks. Those blades where highly praised.
>everybody liked a good blade, be it bloomery, crucible or blast furnace steel

>>1970776
>>1970777
Oh yeah, I think Mixi also covered the Mughals, given that the Chinks also got firearms ideas from them too.

>>1970781
The crucible steel was invented 300 BC in souther India and todays Sri Lanka, a goldilock combination of high grade ores with the good traces of Vanadium & Tungsten, good refractiory materials and constant monsoon winds made helped with that.
It was only in the 17th century that the English figured how to do crucible steel, and still today, special quality steel for tools and weapons is made in small batch crucibles.

>Chinese bought Nips swords
>Arabs bought Chinese swords
>Indians bought European swords

So this is a case of the grass is always greener?

File: sword1.jpg (23KB, 345x276px)

23KB, 345x276px

>>1970168

>>1970796
>Arabs
>#triggered
No, Persians, Indians, Mughals, Turks, yes, but not Arabs, just no, they bought it like everybody else.
Also, Vikings bought Persian Wootz and used them for that batch of +ULFBERH+T swords that became famous. Back at the time Europeans had no cast furnace and made swords the same way like the Japanese, and crucible steel was traded up the Volga trade route.

>>1970796
This is a case of cunts buying good shit from other lands because trade is a thing.

>>1970168

>it took them more than 600 years to realise they had the blades facing the wrong way

Silly nips.

File: Tulwar - Early Wootz 3.jpg (107KB, 816x612px)

107KB, 816x612px

>>1970753
I wouldn't say it can hold a candle to wootz.

File: Yataghan - Turkish - Pattern Welded Blade (Turkish Ribbon - Bands of twisted steel ingots forge welded between high Carbon steel edge and spine) - True Silver Inlay 2.jpg (41KB, 640x295px)

41KB, 640x295px

>>1970864
Or yataghans with twistcore blades with silver inlays

File: Vinland Saga c88 p026.png (403KB, 914x1400px)

403KB, 914x1400px

>>1970817
>Also, Vikings bought Persian Wootz and used them for that batch of +ULFBERH+T swords that became famous.
What, really?
This impies it was more from central Europe
>http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/1134288-a-step-closer-to-the-mysterious-origin-of-the-viking-sword-ulfberht/
>A previous theory held that the swords may have their origin in the Middle East or Asia, but surprisingly it seems the materials were sourced closer to where they were found, in Central Europe.
And these articles also say German monks
>http://www.ancient-origins.net/artifacts-ancient-technology/step-closer-mysterious-origin-viking-sword-ulfberht-002455
>But, the Ulfberht had nothing to do with the mines of India or the Wootz steel or the milkweed or the forges of the Middle East, according to recent research.
>Robert Lehmann, a chemist at the Institute for Inorganic Chemistry at the University of Hannover, told local publication Süd Deutsche in October that the material from which the Ulfberht was forged “certainly does not come from the East.”
>He studied an Ulfberht sword found in 2012 on a pile of gravel excavated from the Weser River, which flows through Lower Saxony in northwestern Germany. This sword’s blade has a high manganese content, which signalled to Lehmann that it did not come from the East.
>http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2878512/The-mystery-magical-superstrong-Viking-sword-Researchers-close-supermonks-believed-forged-weapons.html

File: Keris - Java - Pattern Blade.jpg (55KB, 816x612px) Image search: [Google]

55KB, 816x612px

>>1970867
And then there are Kerises, with their own ore that (if I remember right) have nickel content that creates various patterns.

>>1970168
That's the problem for me. To not accused of that "backlash", i tried to research more things about Japan, to show something like
>Katanas suck, but x from Japan was great
But the more i studied, the more in despair I was.
Their armor is absolutely terrible. They even used fucking butted mail.
But let's back to uh, katanas
>None, or very small guard for hand
>Main strength - cutting, is kinda weak, when used against armour. So from European perspective, people here used a lot of armors, so katana would be a not best choice.
>Also, two-handed. You have shitty armour, and you are using two-handed weapon? Get a shield.
>Thanks to design is bad in thrusting attacks.
>They didn't evolve. Same fucking sword in hundreds of years. Stagnancy in those fields is very very bad.
>Don't forget about some mystical forging technique. Used in Europe 2000 years prior that, where later become obsolete.
Yeah, sounds like a great weapon for me. But I don't now, I would pick a European alternatives, similar to katana. Like messer, or even falchion. Or i'm fighting with unarmored opponents? Saber it is. Why would I need heavy and short sword, when i have light saber with basically same cutting abilities.

>>1970869
Not al Ulfberhts where crucible steel, only some, the ulfberht brand was used for a long time and construction varied over time.
The wootz Ulfbehrts in question are found around the Baltic see. Most current research indicates that the steel was likely of Samanid origin and came via the Caspian/Volga route to the Baltic. Many Samanid coins have also been found.
That source of crucible steel seems to have dried up in the 11th century, and at that same time the blast furnace was invented in southern Sweden.

>>1970874
HEMA beginner? You sound like a HEMA noob?

>>1970906
Nope

>>1970911
so you know jackshit about fencing and swords but argue with what you feel like by just looking at them then?

File: coldsteel.jpg (250KB, 467x640px)

250KB, 467x640px

>>1970874
>Yeah, sounds like a great weapon for me. But I don't now, I would pick a European alternatives,
Uh oh, great manly warrior detected

>>1970867
You know that actually is only cosmetics and does not improve the quality of the blade? They likely had no wootz at hand and needed a fancy pattern.

>>1970919
>>1970915
So instead of making jokes, you should tell me what part of my post was wrong, and I will know it next time. Also, i think I don't need fencing practices and collection of various sword, to speak about them.
For example
If i had to choose which tank i would like to be part of crew of, i would choose T-54 over fucking Renault FT-17. I don't need be in fucking army, or have both in garage, to know, that one is kinda obsolete compared to other.

>>1970931
>If i had to choose
Theres you fucking wrong you moron, you do not have to choose a tank, because you not gonna fight in ww2 anytime soon, and you don't have to choose a sword, because you are not gonna fight of Burglars anytime soon. So either start to collect, train or at least read a book, because your armchair general basement dweller opinion is simply irrelevant on /his/.

>>1970919
>>1970915
Also, i can also use fucking common sense and basic knowledge. In European medieval times, there where shitload of wars, between neighbors, and also against foreign cultures. They needed to adapt quickly, so there was great and fast advance in weaponry.
On the other hand we have Japan.
Nothing
nothing
piracy
some civil war
again, more civil wars
Always using the same tactics and weapons. So, what to expect from people, who know shit about wars? That they will be shit at it.

>>1970940
Look, you better go back to >>>/k/, the level of discussion there will be more to your liking, and people will make less jokes on you.

>>1970781
>>1970777
firangis were used as status weapon, like foreign cars. Footsoldiers and the like still used scimitars spears and increasingly gunpowder.

File: bullshido.jpg (27KB, 300x300px)

27KB, 300x300px

>>1970940

>>1970940
>a high level of discourse is expected.

>>1970946
Firangi is a name for the the origin of the blade, not a weapons name
India is fuckhuge and 300 years is a long time
Foot soldier is a generic term so is spear and scimatar.
Your post is stupid and you should feel bad about it.

File: normal_phillipscatalogue.jpg (14KB, 250x398px) Image search: [Google]

14KB, 250x398px

>>1970359
>>1970095
Good balanced info.
I'm also liking that fusion of cultures there in sword design.
Have a baskethilt.

>>1970840
Theres examples of Indian made shields (17th century) sent to Japan for lacquer decorations and then sent back to India. Apparently they liked the Japanese decorative art a lot.

>>1970751
So you agree that people think its the best sword because it looks nice. Cause that is kinda what I was saying. I never said there is a best sword.

>>1970755
Question still stands martin.....you fucking namefag.

File: Mohtashemi9112011T13229.jpg (83KB, 720x720px) Image search: [Google]

83KB, 720x720px

>>1970958
Here's an example, kinda nice fusion

File: attachment (5).jpg (98KB, 419x592px) Image search: [Google]

98KB, 419x592px

>>1970767
>>1970776
Oh shit, muh dick.
>saved

>>1970960
No, common consensus is that you are a retard and that your question is fucking stupid. Now please leave this thread and board and let the grown ups have their discussion.

>>1970966
Is that you martin?

>>1970850
kek

>>1970874
>None, or very small guard for hand
Tsuba is adequate and many swords had this type of guard, it's different than a crossguard but it protect the hands nicely. Since it was suppose to be used in armor, it's of less importance. It also serves as a counterbalance as there is no pommel. The crossguard isn't the be all end all of guard design.
>Main strength - cutting, is kinda weak, when used against armour. So from European perspective, people here used a lot of armors, so katana would be a not best choice.
It's absolutely ridiculous to compare a japanese weapon to a european standard. Context is important, you don't design a weapon to fight wars you actually don't do. Besides, have you seen how the japanese do cuts against armors? It's very similar to the italian giocco stretto, with draw cuts and strikes to the internal parts of the armor.
>Also, two-handed. You have shitty armour, and you are using two-handed weapon? Get a shield.
They had big pauldrons used like shields, plus since they had polearms, they couldn't have a shield plus a sword as backups, a sword alone is fine, so better do it two-handed, exactly the same thought process as in europe for taht matter.
>Thanks to design is bad in thrusting attacks.
It's ok at thrusting since it's very hard and stiff. May not be as good as a Type XV, sure, but it's good enough. Besides, japanese fencing tends to be 75% cuts anyway.
>They didn't evolve. Same fucking sword in hundreds of years. Stagnancy in those fields is very very bad.
The forging process evolved, their main weapons were bows, spear, naginata, all those had lots of variations. Swords had less but they still had some, depending on the region (Satsuma blades aren't like Bizen who aren't like Chiba blades).
>Don't forget about some mystical forging technique. Used in Europe 2000 years prior that, where later become obsolete.
All about context, for its time and region, it was good. Who cares if it's worse than a country at the end of the world?

File: 445px-Showing_method_of_attack_with_boomerang_-_NMA-15147.jpg (41KB, 445x599px) Image search: [Google]

41KB, 445x599px

>>1970874
m8 U can't be serious

>>1970052
reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

File: NYR_3832_0047.jpg (459KB, 2236x3200px) Image search: [Google]

459KB, 2236x3200px

>sword with certified cutting test on human bodies

>>1970776
>actually debated saving this in my porn folder

>>1970007
Portugese merchants being misinterpreted. It was more of a "holy shit, they still use this shit and make it work this well?" than a "Wow these swords are 10/10 cut through plate armour"

>>1970874
>Their armor is absolutely terrible. They even used fucking butted mail.
By the time Euros started caring about Katanas the tanegashima and baka gaijin armour were a thing, are you literally retarded? Do you think all regions on Earth advanced at the same rate? If anything the Japs were far more adoptive on the innovation firearms brought to the battlefield than even the Spanish considering they used alternating ranks of fire before Maurice even did that shit. Get your head out of your arse and the sword out of your mouth

File: 978f1e9259f32e2588935dd19613870d.jpg (183KB, 489x750px)

183KB, 489x750px

>>1970340
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niten_Ichi-ry%C5%AB

File: masamune.jpg (429KB, 3131x494px) Image search: [Google]

429KB, 3131x494px

>>1970874
I think your making the mistake of comparing apples to oranges.

Japanese armor was considered very good by the most who encountered . They had steel plate with metal segments protecting gaps as well as underarmer of chain mail or thin plate. There are very few armors in the world i would pick over it for protection.

Your thoughts on katana are overly simplistic. Of course a Katana would make little sense on a Europiean battlefield.

however, Ive actually heard mixed stuff from those who went from a tsuba to a cross guard.

an while a katana can cut they can also stab and prob gaps. In any case a sword is not your main killer.

>Also, two-handed. You have shitty armour, and you are using two-handed weapon? Get a shield.

Again they did not have bad armor and it could be used one or two handed. two handed is far better with dealing with polearms because of the leverage.

>They didn't evolve. Same fucking sword in hundreds of years. Stagnancy in those fields is very very bad.

Well like my picture shows there were evolution be blade morphology. There were also differences in forging methods. Japanese warfare was rather static for hundreds of years, and the sengoku changes were not so radical that an entirely new sword was called for.

many sabers weighted almost as much as a katana, maybe a few 100 grams lees. A messur weighed as much and was shorter.

Not all swords were short by the way, tachi were often over 90cm, and there were plenty of longer swords. The shorter sword was popular in edo because it was easy to wear, it was also lighter and more suited to urban combat than a battlefield example. Most people today look at a modern katana and assume that was what they used on the battlefield, many of them today are made for cutting competitions and really are not that similar to an edo period blade, let alone a medieval example

>>1970070
>>1970095
As he pointed out they had enough utility to cavalrymen to be adapted by other cultures

>>1970874
>They didn't evolve. Same fucking sword in hundreds of years. Stagnancy in those fields is very very bad.
Kill yourself, I'm fucking serious, if you actually think this you should kill yourself

>>1970007
Only fucking neckbeard weeaboos think they're any good. In actuality their shit.

>>1970924
You don't have to improve quality of a blade that is already of great quality.

>>1970593
>all fancy like
Presentation may look pretentious to you, but guess what, a high price = quality too. It all comes together, Cleetus.

>>1970751
A million times this

>>1971976
They're*

>>1972063
What point are you trying to make, memeboy?

>>1970874
> Why would I need heavy and short sword, when i have light saber with basically same cutting abilities.
> light saber
kek

File: saxdetail.jpg (923KB, 2280x2000px) Image search: [Google]

923KB, 2280x2000px

>>1970751
>However, you can actually spend hours looking at a handmade Japanese weapon, because, holly shit whats going on with this crystal structure, this fucking mirror polish, the lines and so on.
You can find the same structures on western blades though, assuming you bother to polish them.

Pic shows an Alemannic Sax from the 5th century AD.

File: XNiCN2S.gif (2MB, 387x217px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 387x217px

>>1970007
its shit.
There was a case when a some band of samurai chimpout over some portugese who was ripping them off. The samurai got destroyed with rapiers.

>>1972144
That you don't know the difference between they're (they are) shit, and their shit(a possessive term)

A proper sentence would be
"In actuality, *they're* (Nihonto) shit" or "Samurai don't think *their* shit doesn't smell"

>>1972581
That was a rumor based on a document that was never publicly produced.

The only Japanese account that i have seen that is similar is here, from an oral history passed down in a martial art

http://www.tameshigiri.ca/2014/05/07/european-vs-japanese-swordsmen-historical-encounters-in-the-16th-19th-centuries/


>“Maybe no recorded personal duel per se but the story about the Portuguese being banned from bringing swords (rapiers) ashore during the extensive trading exchanges in Kyushu is documented. The reason for the ban was linked to the fact that the Portuguese originally cut down so many samurai. The local samurai responded by having new swords made which were much lighter than the battle blades they normally carried. Later, another encounter occurred and a virtual small scale war ensued with many Portuguese dying in the skirmish. I know about this because a distant relative of my teacher actually took part in this bit of historical trivia. My teacher (Takamura Yukiyoshi) still owned
>his relatives sword which was made specifically in response to the Portuguese sword tactics the samurai encountered in Kyushu. Like the famous Kogarasu Maru, this sword was double edged from about 5 inches to the kissaki but much lighter and faster. This design was adopted to allow a swift back-cut like the ones the Portuguese employed so effectively against the samurai with rapiers. Once armed with swords of this style, the samurai turned the tables even on the Portuguese in the second encounter. This is when the ban was finally instituted. The whole trading relationship was threatened….”

Other accounts of 16th century encounters are pretty even handed here.

File: download (1).png (3KB, 312x429px) Image search: [Google]

3KB, 312x429px

>>1972595
>lol weeb defending his shit sword.

>>1972616
I guess this is what passes as high level discourse where your from.

Do you have any sources you would like to share?

File: download.png (30KB, 320x359px)

30KB, 320x359px

>>1972625
oops pic was fucked up.

>>1972639
So your navel battle fought with guns and cannons has what to do with this debate?

>>1972678
dumbass Japs does put cannons on their ships they only board.

>>1972683
*doesn't

File: 110829143_323009c.jpg (38KB, 620x413px)

38KB, 620x413px

>>1970007
John Keegan, noted military expert, literally wrote that it was "probably the greatest sword ever made" going on to explain how it was folded so many times in the book "A history of warfare".

>>1972683
Any shooting them with cannon and muskets before they boarded has very little to do with swordsmanship.

the Europans held off a much larger force with a superior ship and ranged weaponry and a lucky shot by the Japanese compromised their position.

As far as swordsmanship goes this incident is not that important

>>1970070
None of these sources states what you claim

File: 1477172934458.png (414KB, 554x790px)

414KB, 554x790px

>>1972706
I think the problem with a lot of people who write on this stuff, even academics, is that they are not martial artists nor experts on the weapons they talk about.

There are some quotes you can read in academic works that in isolation would give you that opinion. on the other hand I know of people in kenjutsu themselves who regard the sword itself as rather unimpressive.

A lot of these misconceptions would be solved by a 30 minute conversation with people who use or make these blades as a hobby or for a living.

I think this topic is so controversial because most of the people in the debate really dont handle or use swords either as collectors or preservers or martial artists, nor do they have academic knowledge about the subject so they just repeat what they have heard elsewhere.

I also think hatred of weaboos makes this worse

Japanese Nationalism and European Orientalism.


The sword itself is secondary in the popular mind to that of the Samurai who wielded them and their warrior culture and their obsession with the sword which was in this time the Katana. The family pride and religion of ancestors meant these swords were prized and passed down in families until they all got confiscated in 1945.


In Europe going into the mid medieval period and later even though sword culture was very much a thing and warriors prided themselves on their fencing the swords themselves were essentially just tools that because of the amount of them floating about and the amount of steel available to Europe were pretty worthless and many warriors would have had several either at once or over their life times. Some were still passed down to children but most were bent up and thrown in lakes. So the mysticism and alterification of swords didn't really occur the same way.

>>1972606
> Like the famous Kogarasu Maru, this sword was double edged from about 5 inches to the kissaki but much lighter and faster. This design was adopted to allow a swift back-cut like the ones the Portuguese employed
Kogarasu Maru is a sword from the 9th century.

>>1972887
Not sure of your point he was simply comparing the sharp back edge of his teacher's sword to a famous historical example

File: Qing Dynasty Wodao.jpg (89KB, 653x497px) Image search: [Google]

89KB, 653x497px

>>1972781
Feel free, Negro, doesn't change the fact that Chinese adopted the sword wholesale.

In fact it's in the Dao family as the Wodao.

File: T'ang Dao.jpg (118KB, 1200x460px)

118KB, 1200x460px

>>1970762
And the Katana emerged out of an evolutionary tree stemming from T'ang Dynasty Dao, pic fucking related.

Not to mention this wasn't the first time Chinks adopted an idea from the so called barbarians. You had.
>Horse archers.
>Horse barding
>The curve on a dao saber that the Nomadics added to the Chinese weapon.
>Fire siphon from the Arabs who got it from the Byzantines.

All the rhetoric of barbarism never stopped people from incorporating what they considered good ideas from other cunts.

>>1972606
>>1972581
in this board you guys focus too much in events that have less to do with the weapons and more with the people welding them.

obviously, a bunch a thugs swiftly assembled to beat professional soldiers/mercenary bodyguards is never a good way to find out if one sword is better than the other.

just take a look at the us campaign on vietnam and you'll understand what i mean

File: pamor-iron-kris.jpg (347KB, 600x600px) Image search: [Google]

347KB, 600x600px

>>1970872
its called pamor ore

>Unlike Damascus (or “Damast”), which arises through a chemical process in the melting-pots (rare metals such as vanadium and molybdenum cause the damast), pamor arises from the technique of forging and welding. Like damast, pamor patterns are a consequence of the fact that the blade is not made from a homogenous piece of metal - it is made from alternating layers of different irons. For example, normal iron and iron containing nickel (the highest value pamor arises from the use of meteoric iron, and is very rare). Irons contain high and low phosphorus also yield pamor. Iron with a high phosphorus content is quite pale and sometimes referred to as "white iron". Different eras (see Keris Tangguh) had a standard different number of layers of pamor.

>The “Empu”, a term of respect for keris smiths, is able to influence the pattern of the pamor by twisting, bending, turning and eventually drilling into the iron bar. Each step is followed by welding. The decorative shape is brought out by filing and grinding, and a wash in a solution of arsenic and lime juice brings out the final pamor pattern on the blade. The precise mixture of materials is said to have an effect on the energy of the final blade: iron and nickel will be different from iron, titanium and nickel. A well-ranged composition of the materials is said to automatically gather energy from nature.

looks like an eldritch weapon desu

>>1973077
To be fair, thrusting swords are OP, ask any HEMA fencer.
Rapier/Sidesword honestly slaughter Longsword on the reg, with Kendo, it's likely similar.

File: Rama-III-swords_small.jpg (52KB, 700x466px)

52KB, 700x466px

>>1970956
Pretty much during the 1400s-1500s there was a Japanese sword craze covering East and Southeast Asia. And the demand was quite to a point that they weren't churned by LE SUPER-EPIG MASTER smiths anymore.

Pic related, Siamese King Rama III's swords.

File: Boxer Codex-183.jpg (162KB, 450x632px) Image search: [Google]

162KB, 450x632px

>>1973651
A noble warrior from the Moluccas with a locally made musket and wearing Japanese swords, samurai-style.

From the so-called "Boxer Codex." A 1570's Spanish Ethnographic Atlas covering the races that neighboured their Philippine colony and the Chinese Empire.

File: Hwando.jpg (46KB, 800x600px) Image search: [Google]

46KB, 800x600px

>>1973656
A Korean Hwando. Basically a copy of the Nip sword.

Korea is actually the second largest producer of tachi/katana copies, next to China.

>>1973644

Yeah a rapier would be pretty hard to deal with in a duel, a surprise attack on the other hand, things like sabre and katana might be more practical because they can be drawn quicker.

There are no accounts of duels that i know of just small battles and street brawls

File: Wodao.jpg (8KB, 550x186px) Image search: [Google]

8KB, 550x186px

>>1973658
A Chinese wodao with wooden lacquer furniture

>>1970095
>Used by assault troops, foot bodyguards, they were more powerful than their one hander cousins but are too big to use in CQC or on horseback.
Qi Jiguang repurposed the changdao as an anti cavalry weapon,arqubusiers and mounted infantry under Ji garrison were outfitted so.(Though they switched back to the generic waist sabre by the late Ming)

Border garrisons also adopted the naginata to some extent(長倭刀).

>>1970340
the katana was not even remotely the only weapon that came from japan, for one thing, and for another there are written practices for single-hand katana use, even miyamoto wrote about it.

>>1973077
>obviously, a bunch a thugs swiftly assembled to beat professional soldiers/mercenary bodyguards is never a good way to find out if one sword is better than the other.
There's literally nothing suggesting that the samurai were thugs, or that the Portuguese were anything special. Sailors tended to know how to fight. They had to or they'd get slaughtered by pirates.

>>1973751
>長倭刀
"Chang Wodao?" That is Naginata in Chinese?

>>1970052

QUUUUUUEEEEENTIIIIIIN

File: 0a2e5af93490a9666a82c00b766b78e4.jpg (83KB, 736x981px)

83KB, 736x981px

Why is there little info on Turkish swords? Turks actually used them succesfully against Europeans unlike Japs who only used their swords against themselves.

How was the quality? It must have been good since European countries like Hungary and Poland copied Ottoman swords.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikVMXhcjbYc

>>1970007
A lot of time and effort goes into creating a good one and it's quite impressive that the Japs were able to make swords with their shit steel.

That being said, European longswords are vastly superior.

File: Anti-Pugilism_-_Anonymous_(Captain_G._Sinclair,_1790),_Plate_2.jpg (261KB, 1157x1861px) Image search: [Google]

261KB, 1157x1861px

>>1973644
Being a Destreza dude myself, I can confirm that so long as your JMA opponent has train in one of the many Ryu schools (old schools) they put up significant resistance.
BUT they get rekt on thrusting, especially when they keep their blade presence too narrow[?].
That being said, they can happily cut your rapier to beat it aside then close REALLY fast.

Basically like George Silver says, in a close encounter the shorter weapon hath the advantage as it can cross and undress in less time by virtue of the distance of the motions of their feet.
>Basically to withdraw my rapier I have to step back, the katana however just moves their hand.

>>1970303
What?

File: Hungarian-Polish Sabre.jpg (91KB, 708x800px) Image search: [Google]

91KB, 708x800px

>>1974712
They were good for cavalry, but Polish-Hungarian saber surpassed them by becoming sabers suitable for both cavalry and on foot, something that western Europe countries never achieved.

>>1974883
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Katanas_are_Underpowered_in_d20

I have a Krag Jorgensen, a Mosin and a couple of replica swords, a bunch of model ships, some books from the 1800s (mostly poetry), some Soviet propaganda posters and an antique cello and accordion.

I'd take a picture of my autism complete with me in my wwiii British uniform but I just had back surgery and can't even stand up rn.

>>1974987
There are plenty of compromise sabres in Western Europe that were usable both on horseback and foot.

>>1974987
Polish-Hungarian saber is literally based on Turkish saber made a bit lighter.

File: Mōko_Shūrai_Ekotoba.jpg (2MB, 4334x1462px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 4334x1462px

>>1974712
>unlike Japs who only used their swords against themselves.
Except they fought the Mongols, Chinese and Koreans

>>1972781
The Chinese at least liked them enough to adopt them
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wodao

>>1973852
From 《四鎮三關志》 a 1573 record of northeastern border garrisons(Ji,Liao,Chang and Zhenbao)

Civilizations don't exist in a vacuum there's always going to be some degree of cultural diffusion and trade(Japanese adopted the Bisento from the Chinese).

File: Ming naginata.png (114KB, 993x775px) Image search: [Google]

114KB, 993x775px

>>1975205
Forgot to link the image

File: IMAG0120.jpg (1MB, 3264x1824px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 3264x1824px

>>1974872
>singlestick
My. Nigger.

File: Ming Wodao.png (149KB, 976x709px)

149KB, 976x709px

>>1975205
*1576

>>1972875
basically this

To address the actual question OP asked, the reason that the katana has become so over-hyped is because the Japanese traditionally have always over-hyped the katana. It didn't just start with the post-meiji rise of nationalism either - the samurai always had a thing about their swords (even though, as I'm sure a dozen people are about to point out, they weren't necessarily their primary weapon). The katana was a badge of office as much as a tool, wrapped up in the whole samurai mysticism.

As for why this has transferred into popular culture in the west, well, if people are going to borrow things from other cultures then it's generally because they like that culture, not because they want to examine them critically. Sushi would probably be better if you cooked the fish, but then it wouldn't be japanese. In the same way, people don't treat the katana like just another sharp instrument.

>>1975141
>Mongols
Extremely briefly before being saved by a typhoon
>China
The first time was 1400 years ago, had no bearing of Japanese technology and was a failure. The second time was also a failure.
>Korea
Addressed above in the second act of aggression between the two powers.

It's not exactly a long list. For all intents and purposes they developed their technology for most of their history without any external conflict.

>>1975337
>saved by a typhoon
worst meme

the typhoon destroyed the fleet on the retreat, after the mongols had landed a force, much, much larger than the defenders.
the mongols won initial success, and were defeated as time went on.
was the typhoon good for sealing their fate? yes
did it do any of the fighting for them? no, the Japanese won in battle

>>1975337
the mongols brought thousands upon thousands of chinese and korean soldiers with them in their invasion

File: dscn0054a.gif (89KB, 247x1571px) Image search: [Google]

89KB, 247x1571px

>>1975205
Yes but there is little evidence the bisento was present in Japan at the time of the naginata's adoption. While the bisento was often included in literary accounts there is some speculation that had more to do with copying Chinese presidents then being an accurate description of the battlefield

>>1976261
It doesn't matter whether the bisento made its way to Japan.

I was just using it as an example of mutual cultural diffusion.

The real cancer is the HEMA neckbeards who only think cool things are cool when they're made by white people.

>>1976957
Most of them probably are not even Hema. Most hema people Ive talked to are at least respectful and interested in anything to do with swords

>>1976957
Never heard that among HEMA, we usually respect all sword traditions world wide.

>>1976957
HEMA doesn't believe that.
I've never thought that, I've never seen another HEMAist like that.

It's just as a westerner I don't really feel like diving into kendo or kenjutsu or kung fu or whatever. I'd rather do something with more connection to my own culture.

>>1970007

imo they were the best blades ever created- in Japan for the feudal period. I'd say a rapier is just as good.

I feel like once they only allowed nobles to carry them it kinda upped their popularity.

>>1977321
>I'd rather do something with more connection to my own culture.
racist

>>1971347
jap armor was considered good by other asians. The japanese sword we love so much (katana and the family of swords thats basically the same thing , just bigger or smaller), are made to cut flesh. If they hit something hard, the edge gets fucked up. Period.

The english swords evolved to deal with their heavier plate armor, which is to say either mass weapons or piercing weapons that were quite controllable to slip into gaps in the armor. Sure, a katana can thrust,,, but poorly, compared to an estock or something similar.

The best thing you said was the first line of your post and you should leave it at that. This is a pissing match without an end. It's lkike saying what's a better tool: hammer or screwdriver?

>>1976957
>Why are people who are practitioners of "Historic European martial arts" more inclined towards things made by Europeans. Fucking neckbeards! Cancer! White people! REEEE

You fucking idiot.

>>1970007
The amount of time and effort and craftsmanship that went into them, and the sword's connection to a cool warrior class.

Also the Japanese folk religion way of mystifying everything makes Japanese stuff seem cool and mystical.

File: images (3).jpg (6KB, 276x182px) Image search: [Google]

6KB, 276x182px

>>1977410
The edge gets fucked up if your looking for an art piece, it would still be functional. a field sword would also have a much different cross section from most blades today.

>katana and the family of swords thats basically the same thing , just bigger or smaller

A nodachi is nothing like a normal katana. If you have every held one they look the same but you have to use the sword and body quite differently to make it effective. As for a tachi vs a katana you would be right that the differences in handling them are minimal and if you can use one you can use the other with little difference.

As for probing the gaps of japanese armor, it was more small or sliding cuts to get into the inner gaps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3cpPRBlnwc

I dont think its particularly poor thruster, of course some European designs have it beat there, but despite what some people say the thrust did have a central role in Japanese swordsmanship, kendo begins with tsuki (thrust) was a saying of the hokushin itto ryu.


I admit a lot of that was my nitpicking and your right about the right tool for the right job, but this is a history board so we might as well be precise

>>1977396
i don't want to dive into a foreign culture. sue me.

>>1970919
Europeans had swords with the exact same shape as jap swords but just with better guard and smaller stuff so the only reason you would ever pick a katana over something like the kriegsmesser is because you are a weeb

>>1978046
A sword is more than its shape, the japanese sword in particular is much more than its shape and a messer isn't much like a japanese sword blade wise.
Besides what is the point of "picking" a sword anyway, we don't use them for what they are, it's a hobby, a messer is just as entertaining as a japanese sword for that matter. Back in the days, you couldn't "pick" between a messer and a japanese sword because they obviously were from different region or time period. This is a stupid "choice" any way you look at it.

Besides, the kriegmesser is in itself a meme, we have very few documentation about it, almost no texts, almost no images. The reason it's glorified is more than most thing as a pseudo anti-weeb weapon, because it "looks" like a japanese sword, even though it's nothing like it.

File: touken-ranbu-video-game-1080P-wallpaper.jpg (2MB, 3840x1200px)

2MB, 3840x1200px

Because they're cute.

>>1972581
>cheap 50$ katana for cosplays and decoration
>longsword seated on a table

>>1978046
>pick a katana over something like the kriegsmesser is because you are a weeb
>kriegsmesser
>muh liechtenauer, muh grimdark 40k

Get a load of this fechtkunt.

File: Albion svante.jpg (100KB, 800x599px) Image search: [Google]

100KB, 800x599px

>>1978080
I made the response to that comment shitty with intent to be shitty because the other guy was just shitposting.

>the japanese sword in particular is much more than its shape

Do explain further why jap swords are much more other than just you know Jap hyping their swords as status symbols.

>I quite like this sword.

>>1978971
see >>1978987

>>1978119
It is a shitty test but both swords were made by the same smith.

>>1978119
Go and seek for original video. They tested it also the other way around.

>>1970007

because the better made ones were some of the best blades ever created, and in korea there were other ones and in china there were other blades that were some of the best ever created, and in india others and in central asia and the middle east others, and europe sure as fuck had a long history of best blades ever created

you might as well compare early firearms or todays jet fighters, theres allways some somewhere relatively 'best ever created'

what does it even mean realy, that it was good quality and it succesfully killed people, you can say that about a well made slingshot, in fact considering how great a roll slingshots played historicaly its strange no one is comparing the slingshots thta were best ever made

>>1979025
Us plebian slingers deserve our due, the sling was the best ranged weapon and the people who used them were saints among men.

>>1978987
Any sword is more than its shape, the balance, weight, material and perhaps most importantly the martial culture around it are all very different.

The kriegsmesser for example is about as long as an old style tachi, I couldn't find the weight of a period example so I will say its also a about the same weight based on modern copies of both with a much broader blade.

a normal messur seems to be inch for inch heaver than a kantana based on what Ive read.

While someone who trained with either of the weapons could probably pick the other one up and use it, they would do so in a somewhat different manner than someone properly trained in either sword.

As for the other things I think you should actually train with some swords before you start opining on their good and bad traits

>>1978997
This basically, when you slam to swords together the bigger thicker one has a big advantage.

>>1979641
The test has more to do with how the swords are made up differently.

Most european swords were made a lot more springy compared to jap swords (unless we are talking about really stiff thrusting swords).

Weebs aren't people.

>>1979684
This is acually true, and I do know swordsmiths who consider the spring temper superior.

though from what little reading I have done it didn't become wide spread until the 16th and 17th century and It was never clear to me how universal it was.

That said the relative thickness of the blades is quite different.

File: where to go.jpg (101KB, 500x1188px) Image search: [Google]

101KB, 500x1188px

>>1979741

File: Summary sword.jpg (61KB, 750x528px) Image search: [Google]

61KB, 750x528px

>>1973651

>>1970028
>muh ideology
People don't decide to like a thing because of "Orientalism", you knob.

File: War Knife.jpg (183KB, 789x678px) Image search: [Google]

183KB, 789x678px

>>1978080
>Besides, the kriegmesser is in itself a meme, we have very few documentation about it, almost no texts, almost no images.
I find this disappointing

>>1970070
Interesting, but those quotes seem made up. Google search just turns up this thread.

>>1980017
Not him, but when it comes to quotes from obscure sources, a simple google search can sometimes come up wanting, especially if its a translated quote

File: 1386794591270.jpg (48KB, 428x332px) Image search: [Google]

48KB, 428x332px

>>1978080
>the kriegmesser is in itself a meme, we have very few documentation about it

>>1980003
>>1981040
>haha I'll cherry pick one or two pictures/references and post them with the implication that there are so many more, when in fact these are literally the only examples!
just

File: Messer-weights-datasheet.jpg (328KB, 1110x1506px) Image search: [Google]

328KB, 1110x1506px

>>1981082
I can think of up to about 30, maybe more depending on where your personal boundary between grossemesser and kriegsmeser is, and how willing you are to include ones that have come from questionable auctions, and might be fake.

they're by no means common, but they're certainly not unique. they're certainly more common than falchions.
>>1979641 -
>a normal messur seems to be inch for inch heaver than a kantana based on what Ive read.

I know of multiple 70-80cm bladed messers in the 800-900g ballpark.

they are significantly lighter, with much more pronounced distal taper. Most messers are in fact, straight, too.

>>1981484

based on these they are not significantly lighter with the exception of the thin one at the bottom and third from the bottom The third one would be inch by inch quite a bit heavier. So I guess it depends a lot on the build

>>1970303
Get a (you)

File: 2888ece2e955ee69bba8387a42b44558.jpg (67KB, 564x564px)

67KB, 564x564px

>>1970007
OP, at least post all the blades

File: 8d44542ef22b1d56e26bbda43ca12162.jpg (75KB, 736x477px)

75KB, 736x477px

>>1983101
I found this last night, the terminology is debatable and the image size small but it does give measurements of different kinds of japanese blades.

It appears to have both blade length and overall length but the latter is pretty much unreadable

>>1983129
Now that I think about it some of these numbers are a bit short, the tachi length is that of a normal katana, with long tachi being closer to a medieval tachi, And on the far side there are swords longer than 120cm in use by the few schools that still practice nodachi

>>1970303
saved

>>1983101
>>1983129
One thing about the nodachi / odachi.
Nodachi means "field sword" (ie battlefield sword ala épée de guerre) and is always a large sword with a blade longer than 3 shaku (91cm). Odachi however can have two meanings. It means "long great sword" (somehow) and it stands either for a weapon similar to a nodachi or a regular sized tachi. Reasoning is that sometimes, odachi means "bigger sword" in the sense of "bigger of the two swords", that's why in a daisho, the katana can be describe as the odachi and the wakizashi the kodachi. Some schools use the term odachi to describe a typical long sword which should be tachi / uchigatana length but usually, odachi means a sword whose blade is longer than 3 shaku. In themselves, the nodachi isn't by definition bigger than the odachi and vice versa.

File: jap_sword_development_small.jpg (136KB, 490x328px) Image search: [Google]

136KB, 490x328px

>>1983957
a Three shaku sword could also be a tachi in some circumstances, even a four shaku (121cm) might be referred to as a tachi in the earlier period.

In general the terminology was not very standardized.


longer swords were more popular before edo though supposedly there was a move toward shorter, easier to handle blades near the end of the sengoku.

>>1970767
Very pretty sword.

Wouldn't it be apt to say that there are paralells between katanas and single edged European swords like falchions, messers, dussacks and cutlasses? They have far more in common than longswords or those massive kriegsmessers.

They are short, exceedingly powerful cutting sidearms, ideally suited for quick action when you're in a bit of an emergency.
Longswords on the other hand were secondary weapons rather than true sidearms because they're fuckhuge and a more suitable weapon than a pollaxe or so depending on the situation.

File: bushiwithOdachi.png (640KB, 461x746px)

640KB, 461x746px

>>1984269
The katana is much as you described but it was only one of a family, nodachi were much like you describe long swords as, and not surprisingly they are about the same length.

>>1975355
i need proofs about this and references.

>>1984782
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_Japan#Second_invasion_.281281.29

>Main battles of the Kōan Campaign
Battle of Tsushima Island - Japanese victory

On May 21, the Mongolian Army landed on Tsushima island and invaded. They met fierce resistance there and later withdrew.[20]
Battle of Shikano Island - Japanese victory
Japanese soldiers in Shikano Island

On the morning of June 8, the Japanese army divided their force into two and attacked along Umi no Nakamichi.[21] The Japanese army lost 300 soldiers but defeated Hong Dagu, who nearly died in this battle, and Zhang Cheng.[22]

On June 9 Zhang Cheng solidified the defense of his army but the Mongolian army was again defeated by the fierce Japanese attacks.[23] After this defeat the Mongolian army escaped to Iki Island.[23]
Battle of Iki Island - Japanese victory
Tsunesuke Shoni and Hisatsune Shimazu

On June 29, a Japanese army of approximately 10,000, led by the Matsura Clan, Ryuzoji Clan and Takagi Clan began an all-out attack on Iki Island.[24] On July 2, Iekiyo Ryuzoji landed on Setoura beach and defeated the Mongolian army. As a result, the Mongolian army decided to abandon Iki Island and withdrew to Hirato Island.[25]
Battle of Mikuriya - annihilation of Mongolian navy

On July 5, Suenaga Takesaki attacked and annihilated the Mongolian Navy.[26] After this battle, most of the commanders of the Mongolian army escaped to their own country.[27][28]
Battle of Taka Island - annihilation of Mongolian army
Fierce battle in Taka Island

On July 7, there were about 100,000 soldiers of the Mongol army without commanders.[28][29][30][31] Upon realizing this situation, the Japanese army attacked. Korechika Togo, Koretoo Togo, Sukekado Hujiwara and Nagahisa Shimazu defeated 100,000 soldiers.[28] The Japanese took 20,000 to 30,000 prisoners in this battle. At the completion of this battle, Japan's victory was confirmed.


Also see Thomas Conlan's "In Little Need of Divine Intervention"

>>1984842
Thanks

they're japanophiles mostly. or just misinformed because they think they look cool

they're japanophiles, or just misinformed and think they look cool

>>1970007
It's cool. I like it.

>all these beautiful swords
Must. Not. Fap.

>>1984269
>katanas and single edged European swords like falchions, messers, dussacks and cutlasses
>Falchions
Nope. Not even slightly.
>Messers
As much as sabres and backwards, yes.
>Dussacks.
As above.
>Cutalass
Basically a Falchions, so no.

>>1970007
Literally only because of memes.

>>1972006
Ever heard of getting swindled? Usually happens when you want something high quality and is told is high quality but just ends up being garbage in the end

>>1970070
you've posted this before

>>1988215
He has but its true non the less, and it seems to piss people who hate katana off

>>1970095
Skelegates, if you will

thread translated to japanese: http://www.all-nationz.com/archives/1062618569.html

File: Miao-dao-sword (1).gif (86KB, 400x280px) Image search: [Google]

86KB, 400x280px

>>1988215
But it is true.

If it was such a bad le breakable brittle sword like the polar opposites claim to be, Chinks wont be gaga over it and even adopt it.

>>1990738
but why

>>1970869
>cross after T
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qKcJF4fOPs

>>1990738
>The strongest of the idea of the West it's only "strength".
>Japanese sword'm the strongest because they reached the realm of art as a blade

/his/ btfo