What would happen if Poland-Lithuania annexed early Muscovian

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here's population map

how the fuck should I know

The Commonwealth would have conquered Europe, ushering us into a golden age of tolerance, advancement, peace and Adidas tracksuits for all.

The world would be saved from the eternal Muscovite.

>>1941004
>France, not even at full size yet, has a bigger population than the entire Ottoman empire.

Fucking hell.

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>>1941008
Really makes you think.

But instead tracksuits, we would wear dank Sarmatian clothes

Implying they could, at any point really.

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>>1941021
You don't seem to know history very well.

Poles werre invitied at least one time to rule over Muscovy, another time Waza wanted to put his son on the throne but knew that Russians are savages and would kill him. Another time Ivan was invited to rule Poland-Lithuania and Muscovy.

Since "Polish" identity was stronger at that time than "Russian" one, I highly doubt there would be any problems.

How was Eastern Europe home to the history's most progressive country prior to the French revolution yet has been so backwards ever since?

Are Russians to blame?

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>>1941026
Yes.

>>1940998
It would've never worked because the damage was already done, russians were already orthodox christians. Every potential "what if good things had happened" was cut short by the russians' rejection of catholicism.

>>1941027
>Stolen by Russians
>Destroyed by Germans
Who let these chimps become major European powers?

>>1941024
>Poles werre invitied at least one time to rule over Muscovy, another time Waza wanted to put his son on the throne but knew that Russians are savages and would kill him. Another time Ivan was invited to rule Poland-Lithuania and Muscovy.
None of this came true, so it doesn't matter. The only time it sort of happened, pro-polish faction was defeated hard.
>Since "Polish" identity was stronger at that time than "Russian" one, I highly doubt there would be any problems.
Implying Polish identity wasn't something they discovered in late 18th-early 19th century after losing their statehood. Those Lithuanians and future Ukrainians sure as hell had no Polish identity.

>>1940998
>Would Eastern Slavs become civilized and less poor?
Stopped reading there.

>>1941035
>Implying Polish identity wasn't something they discovered in late 18th-early 19th century after losing their statehood. Those Lithuanians and future Ukrainians sure as hell had no Polish identity.
I was speaking about nobility, which sure as hell knew they're SARMATIAN aka Polish in that time.

You know what percent of the population was noble? 15% While in Russia it was 0.5% or something like that.

>>1941033
>Russians were already Orthodox Christians
So were the other East Slavs in the Commonwealth.

And not to forget the PLC was the basically the only place in Europe where even Jews could expect the locals not to chimp out on them (and when they did, invariably it was Orthodox Christians doing it).

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>>1941041
Das rite

>>1941038
>which sure as hell knew they're SARMATIAN aka Polish in that time
You goddamn fool, it's the opposite. Many European states had an obsession with the noblemen being or appearing foreign (Normans in England, Franks in France, Rus Vikings in Russian states and "Sarmatians" in Poland) because they wanted to highlight the difference between them and the commoners.
>You know what percent of the population was noble? 15% While in Russia it was 0.5% or something like that.
So what? Poland had the highest percentage of feudal nobility among any of European countries. Which also meant that in practice majority of schlacta were barely better off than peasentry.

>>1941049
>You goddamn fool, it's the opposite. Many European states had an obsession with the noblemen being or appearing foreign (Normans in England, Franks in France, Rus Vikings in Russian states and "Sarmatians" in Poland) because they wanted to highlight the difference between them and the commoners.
Does it change anything I said? Polish nobility believed to be Sarmatian aka Polish.
THEY KNEW THEY'RE SARMATIAN, so they wouldn't get russified.
>So what? Poland had the highest percentage of feudal nobility among any of European countries. Which also meant that in practice majority of schlacta were barely better off than peasentry.
More nobility = no russification of the rulling class.

>>1941041
>and when they did, invariably it was Orthodox Christians doing it
I think that favors my general argument that orthodox christianity was bad for slavs.

>>1940998

unlikely. it would be worse and napoleon would establish the french rule firmly. that in turn would lead to france being a fascist country for many and avoiding the second world war by maintaining a balance of power with europe. france would be extremely powerful, retaining all of its colonies in africa and the mediterranean to the balkans and the caucuses. avoiding the world wars and the soviet union would mean that current american and asian economies would be dwarfed by colossol european wealth and power and we wouldnt have something mundane and stupid like donald trump being the president of the united states such a big deal throughout the world.

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>>1941054
Orthodox Christians have always had an Asiatic kink in their brains. Even before Mongols or Ottomans.

>>1941058
That's what you get when your founder is as influenced by persia as it is by the western world

>>1941051
>Sarmatian aka Polish.
No, it's specifically not Polish. The whole point of Sarmatian legend was not being Polish.
>they wouldn't get russified
>no russification of the rulling class
Where did I say anything about russification? I thought we were talking about whether or not Polish conquest of Muscovy was plausible. Which it wasn't.

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>>1941058
bastarized nigger icons

disgusting
>>1941063
>No, it's specifically not Polish. The whole point of Sarmatian legend was not being Polish.
Is this so hard for you to fucking get that Polish nobility believed to be Sarmatians so that fucking means they had IDENTITY already?
>Where did I say anything about russification? I thought we were talking about whether or not Polish conquest of Muscovy was plausible. Which it wasn't.
Oh, but it was.

Military-wise.

>>1941066
>so that fucking means they had IDENTITY already
Where's their Sarmatian identity now? Don't forget that their nobility was instrumental in integrating scraps of Poland into Russia, Prussia and Austria. Meaning that people with, according to you, the most identity were the biggest sellouts who betrayed their country.

And for fucks sake, stop acting like identity politics were a thing back then.

>Military-wise
Livonian_wars.txt
And even if that was true, you need much more military strength to conquer an enemy than to defeat him. Even during times when Commonwealth was military stronger, they weren't stronger enough.

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Why did it have to happen?

>inb4 panslavist blame Poles and Russians not liking each other on Germans and Hungarians

the PLC was actually cancer
the nobility was extremely selfish and held back development of the nation
its why they could be cut up by neighbouring absolute monarchies

>>1941142
>the nobility was extremely selfish and held back development of the nation
This is true.

And they STILL managed to shit all over their neighbours in terms of advancement despite this blight on the PLC.

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>>1941148
Didn't Prussia managed to end up with both a bigger army and more schools than Poland already before the partipications?

>>1941154
Prussian niggers got the idea of compulsory education from Poland after the partitions.

Also
>muh army
The only thing Prussians ever thought about.

>>1941142
>the PLC was actually cancer
It was in terms of administration.

The Ideas were well beyond their time.

>>1941159
rule of the magnates is not democracy

>>1941164
I didn't say anything about democracy.

Read von Moltke's work about Poland.

>>1941164
Actually yes it is. That's precisely how democracy was originally practised.

Not Poland's fault modern plebs think democracy means mob rule.

>>1940998
Germany would be huge.

>>1941252
More like Germany would get gangbanged by France and GigaPoland before they even got a shot at unification.

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>>1941004

Moldova was never conquered by the Ottoman empire, fucktwat.


Moldova completely obliterated them in a 3 to 1 battle.

>>1941275
Moldova was vassalized by the Ottoman Empire. That map doesn't make a distinction between vassals and territory proper.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldavian%E2%80%93Ottoman_Wars

>>1941252
>>1941255
But how would Germany even unify if Prussia wouldn't exist?

>>1941313
Exactly.

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WE

>>1941157
>Prussian niggers got the idea of compulsory education from Poland after the partitions.
Which is why Friedrich the great laid out the idea before the first participation?

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>>1941367
Poles laid out the idea in the 16th century.

>>1941017
Sarmatian clothes were for people too poor to afford Adidas tracksuits

>>1941376
Rather sure Friedrich actually implemented it, and it wasn't till after the participation it was implemented in Poland.

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>>1941035
>Implying Polish identity wasn't something they discovered in late 18th-early 19th century after losing their statehood
Nope. Polish national identity started to shape in 16th century.

>W połowie XVI wieku wytwarza się w Koronie świadomość narodowa. W połowie XVI wieku nastąpiła też polonizacja magnaterii i szlachty litewskiej, a w XVII wieku polonizacja szlachty białoruskiej. Narodem polskim stała się warstwa wyższa, bez względu na pochodzenie etniczne, język, religię, złączona wspólnymi korzyściami i przywilejami stanowymi[36]. Między innymi na gruncie języka polskiego dokonywała się stopniowa, od przełomu XVI i XVII wieku widoczna coraz wyraźniej integracja kulturowa wieloetnicznego narodu szlacheckiego Rzeczypospolitej Obojga Narodów[37].

Don't compare us to Russia where people were unconscious identity-less slaves until 20th century.

>>1941063
>The whole point of Sarmatian legend was not being Polish.
lol do not talk about things you have no idea about retard

>>1941058
were greek orthodox as backward as the slavic ones?

>>1941006
The answer to all >if threads.

>>1941004
Spain big
As of 2015, its population was estimated at more than 626 million

spain could have become world superpower for practically ever if only they actually integrated new territories.

really makes you think

>>1941873
No.

But that picture was done by the Greek Orthodox. They weren't quite as bad as the Russians but they did love the occasional chimpout nonetheless.

>>1941004
I've read that in 1601–03, Russia suffered a famine that killed about two million, so by the time of the Polish–Muscovite War they probably had only 9 million.

>>1941038
They've assumed they're "Sarmatian" as a means of differing themselves from the peasants and other non-nobility, while in truth, they were more Slavic than a bare Niklot riding a white horse.

>>1941142
Only in terms of administration, you can't understand the Renaissance and Enlightenment periods without taking into account the Polish contribution to it.

>>1941051
true.

>>1941033
Someone who opened up the gates of space, invented the grain harvester, light-emitting diodes, lasers and devised a table of elements that vastly improved chemistry and unlocked her full potential as a science is "uncivilized" to you?

>>1944294
I want you to explain why Hungarians got no historical land in Europe as you never gave me any explanation of that once before.