Forgive me for regurgitaing an age-old argument. Buuut.. How

Another query: if you're religious, but believe people will be accepted into heaven on their merits alone, then why evangelise and practice praise of God?

Saint Olga is my waifu

>How do you know your religion is correct?
Consistent teachings for 2,000 years. Doesn't really prove it's correct, but makes it unique among all world religions along with the oldest schools of Buddhism.

>Do you believe your own particular brand of Protestantism, Orthodoxy, Catholocism, Islam or whatever is the one true way?
Yes.

>And that all other people are doomed to hell?
I don't know who is going to hell and who isn't in particular, but I'm sure plenty of people who subscribe to my religion will end up there.

All religion is essentially LARPing.

>>1914821
Isn't Judaism, Hinduism both as valid if you've chosen your belief due to the historical factor?

>>1914616
You don't. That is why the concept of "faith" exists. Next thread please.

>>1914873
Judaism of today comes from Pharisaic Judaism, and the modern variant is a much later development after the codification of the Talmud. Christianity, in a way, actually has more in common with ancient Judaism than modern Judaism does. Ancient Jews, for instance, fasted two days a week (a Pharisee actually brags about this in his prayers, in contrast with the Publican), which Orthodox Christians do, but modern Jews don't anymore (the days were Monday and Thursday, but early Christians changed them to Wednesday (Christ's betrayal) and Friday (his Crucifixion) to distinguish themselves from the Pharisees. Judaism also used to be very pro proselytizing, often even through forced conversions, but that changed in the Middle Ages. Also Judaism used to have a priesthood (which the Pharisees were in a power struggle with), now they don't. Christianity still has a priesthood and alters a thurible.

Hinduism is a very old religion, but how it's practiced and what its theology is, is far from consistent with what it was a thousand years ago.

>>1914821
>>1914901

Hi there!

You seem to have made a bit of a mistake in your post. Luckily, the users of 4chan are always willing to help you clear this problem right up! You appear to have used a tripcode when posting, but your identity has nothing at all to do with the conversation! Whoops! You should always remember to stop using your tripcode when the thread it was used for is gone, unless another one is started! Posting with a tripcode when it isn't necessary is poor form. You should always try to post anonymously, unless your identity is absolutely vital to the post that you're making!

Now, there's no need to thank me - I'm just doing my bit to help you get used to the anonymous image-board culture!

I always rather liked how a core tenet of Sikhism is that no religion can claim a monopoly on absolute truth, they're all different ways of understanding the same god.

>>1915087
It's the least offensive conception, but doesn't really make sense.

>>1914901
This /pol/ meme. Truly /pol/ has ruined 4chan.

>>1914616
what makes you think that it isn't just the same god and people have found different ways to appreciate this god

>>1914901
>but modern Jews don't anymore


Quite a few modern Jews do fast on the weekday torah reading days.

And real fasts, no intake at all, not this Orthodox namby pamby "Well, I won't eat meat today, that's a fast, right?"

>Also Judaism used to have a priesthood (which the Pharisees were in a power struggle with), now they don't.

It still does, it's just that without the Temple, it's not particularly relevant. But Kohanim get the first Torah reading, and they still are at least supposed to adhere to the laws of ritual purity. Also, priesthood is hereditary, not a calling.


Constantine, why do you constantly say shit that is just wrong?

>>1914616
>How do you know your religion is correct?
My parents wouldn't've forced it on me if it was false

>>1914616
I think the point is, you don't know that it's correct. You believe it is. That's why it's called "faith".

>>1915228
Makes sense. Ill live my agnostic ways behind and rejoin my parents in the true path of Judaism

>>1915251
Well actually no, Catholicism's the true path. If Judaism was still true my parents would've raised me Jewish. Sorry to tell you this bro but I think your parents were just liars.

My mom swears to Christ that when she was younger, once while she was praying in bed she felt the touch of the Virgin Mary. And I 100% know my mom never lied.

>>1915276
Shit. I never would have thought that my parents would do such thing. But why weren't they ever raised as Christians

>>1915229

OP said to keep the shitposting to a minimum so I am going to try and put this as kindly as possible.

You could quite easily replace 'faith' with 'gullibility' or 'credulity' in your post and it would mean exactly the same thing, it's just the words would sound less palatable.

>>1915306
Well the Jews have always been liars, friend. Your parents lied to you, just as their parents lied to them, and so on.

The only time the Jews have ever told the truth was in Matthew 27:25. So the hard truth is that all your ancestors who were born around 1 AD and afterwards are currently in eternal isolation from the grace of God.

But there's still time for you though, but only if you convert to Catholicism. It's the one and only true religion, and is actually the complete fulfillment of Judaism and has always been.

How do you know that your philosophy is correct? You dont, but it is simply the way you perceive the world. You cant really help it, not without extensive contemplation anyway.
T. Neoplatonist/hermeticist

>>1915176
It's not a /pol/ meme, goofball. Ask any Orthodox Jew whether or not the Pharisees were the forefathers of Orthodox Judaism, he will answer yes.

>>1914622
John 14:6-Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

>>1915362
My philosophy predates my perception by a couple of thousand years.

>>1915381
Colossians 2:8-See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

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>>1914616

Becuz muh holy scriptures n' shit.....

>>1915391
meant for >>1915390

>>1915391
My philosophy is the one Christ taught.

>>1915176
No more memey and vapid than your post.

>>1915393
THIS...

+9001

FUCK relgioin.....

This post... is full of WIN

>>1914821
Hi there!

You seem to have made a bit of a mistake in your post. Luckily, the users of 4chan are always willing to help you clear this problem right up! You appear to have used a tripcode when posting, but your identity has nothing at all to do with the conversation! Whoops! You should always remember to stop using your tripcode when the thread it was used for is gone, unless another one is started! Posting with a tripcode when it isn't necessary is poor form. You should always try to post anonymously, unless your identity is absolutely vital to the post that you're making!

Now, there's no need to thank me - I'm just doing my bit to help you get used to the anonymous image-board culture!

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Honestly?

i'm not gonna go full-'muh-miracles-of-the-quran' bullshit

but the quran is the only book that doesn't seem to defy the fuck out of science/physics
Old Earth Creationism (google that)
Weirdly enough, it also has some predictions that came out true, which is amazing
it also has some scientific stuff that your average 7th-century sandnigger wouldn't know of...

>>1915226
Orthodox fasts normally prohibit meat, dairy, oils, wine and fish, sex, merrymaking, and a few other things. We also have no intake days.

Most Jews don't fast more than six days out of the year, which is the number of Orthodox days of no intake.

>Also, priesthood is hereditary, not a calling.
Christ established a new priesthood to replace the old one, which Jews themselves hated at that point.

>>1915430
Is Islam your religion?

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I can understand how religion made sense to people back in the day, as they were far more ignorant. Hell, most people couldn't even fucking read.

Not so much today, though.

It's just stupid to believe that any single religion, out of thousands that have existed over time, managed to get it right, and it's moronic to believe all the nonsense "miracle" shit described by religions when 99.9999% of that bullshit is contradicted by science and everyday experience.

If you're clinging to tradition, community, whatever, got it, but if you actually believe the horseshit described in any religion, than you're a moron.

>>1914875
I was going to write something wordy, but this pretty much suffices. Whatever you believe, you take on faith. If you didn't need faith to believe, then there wouldn't be all this conflict over what's right and wrong.

That said, I still leave the matters of theological discussion and debate to others who wish to devote their life to it. Although it would be nice for the entire world to spend time contemplating the nature of scripture and theology day in and day out, the majority of us have other business to attend to and must rely on the findings and conclusions of other men.

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>>1915446
yes you simpleton

>>1915460
You don't seem like you take it very seriously.

>>1915458
>the majority of us have other business to attend to and must rely on the findings and conclusions of other men.

What a loser.

I suppose you rely on the findings and conclusion of other men to tell you what clothes to wear, food to eat, and who you should and shouldn't like?

>>1915457
>out of thousands that have existed over time,
come the fuck on

if a religion dies out, it's proved to be false. what god would let his religion die anyway?

how many major religions are there in the world right now? Islam,Christianity,Judaism,Buddhism,Hinduism,shinto and Sikhism, right?
so that's what you choose from

>>1915457
"Since religions conflict, none is right," is your argument?

>>1915464
Where did i imply that?

i pray 5 times a day, i do charity during the eid and i fast. That's it.

>>1915471
>if a religion dies out, it's proved to be false.
And yet their practitioners all believed they were right.....and they weren't. That's the point, dude.

>>1915472
That's only part of the argument.

The other part consists of claims made by various religions that oppose known scientific and physical laws.

But I'm not going to argue with you, as you are a zealot, and will simply discount anything I say in favor of your fantasy anyway...

>>1915495
>And yet their practitioners all believed they were right.....and they weren't. That's the point, dude.
so we're going to have and see which religion is likely to outlast all others...
which one do you think?

>>1915481
But you talk very disrespectfully about miracles of the Quran, and refer to Mohammed as a "sandnigger".

>>1915495
>implying there is anything wrong with being a zealot
Apathy and anomie are what's killing the West, not zealotry. If anything, we could use a little more zealotry.

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>>1915518
>But you talk very disrespectfully about miracles of the Quran, and refer to Mohammed as a "sandnigger".
just chill
it's not that bad

>>1915526
Reverence isn't chill.

>>1915468
Well, yes, in a sense.

I do dress in a way acceptable to society because everyday attire is based on social norms and to go against the grain without a practical reason is fruitless.

I rely on biologists, doctors, and dietitians to discover the health effects of the foods I eat before I make the decision to consume or not to consume them.

And instead of being the primary source of investigation for all persons and people I discover, I look up past or developing facts on the matter before making my own conclusion on them. Why would I lean so much on others when I'm perfectly capable of preforming all of these tasks myself? The answer is because time is a finite resource, and to spend time discovering an answer to a question for myself on one topic means I'm not spending time to discover an answer for myself on another. Moreover, the more time spent on a single subject, the greater the depth of knowledge about it.

For example, I can't explain the function and reasoning behind every part in a vehicle, but I still partake in the usefulness of it due to someone else discovering it without me. If I didn't, I would be forced to independently discover the science behind combustion engines, transmissions, and other gizmos inside a vehicle, whereas now I can be left to my primary field of research instead, further pushing it forward so that others may reap the benefits.

>>1915506
>which one do you think?

Probably one that hasn't even been developed yet.

Regardless, every single thing on this planet is going to be vaporized by the sun in about 4 billion years, whether we're still on this rock or not.

>>1915518
>Apathy and anomie are what's killing the West, not zealotry. If anything, we could use a little more zealotry.

I'd agree with that, anon.

Seems the only zealots that exist these days are the degenerates.

>>1915534
So which scientific body do you look to in order to confirm or deny the existence of Santa Claus, the Tooth fairy, and the Easter bunny?

Or are you smart enough to figure THAT shit out for yourself?

>>1915531
Agreed here. we refer to the prophets and wish peace upon them for a reason, as well as pray that Allah subhana wa ta'ala may be content with their companions.

Reverence and respect is the first step to guidance.

>>1915362
Ex hermeticist here. Save yourself about 5 years of study and just convert to Islam.

>>1915336
Okay? You're assuming there's supposed to be a logical proof of any of this. There isn't, it's just a belief. There doesn't necessarily have to be evidence behind it. You may think that's dumb, and that's your opinion. Personally I'm not religious but this is just the basic idea of faith, it's believing in something even though you can't prove it's true, or even possibly know it's true.

>>1914616
>How do you know your religion is correct?
For most its simply a cultural thing combined experiencing dreams or sensations they have never felt before.

Reason doesn't really play a big role in it. For instance no archeological evidence found or not found will ever make a big impact on adherence.

Even if we found period scriptures that had Christ acting as a con man or suffering from schizophrenia during the gap between his childhood and ministry its not like the all the Bishops would say well that was all good but I guess we better close down now.

There's really no good argument against the Resurrection beyond "It's clearly impossible," which I don't consider particularly compelling.

>>1916629
Oh and for extra interest take a look at how state violence played an extremely important part in defining what constitutes orthodox/non heretical teachings. A top down imposition of truth if you will.

If you are interested in people like Olga take a look at Saint Vladimir the Great to see some nice realpolitik.

>>1915222
Different natures of God(s)

>>1915430
How does the Quaran coincide with modern science better than the Bible Muslimbro?

>>1914616
>How do you know your religion is correct
What do you mean correct? Religion tells you what to do on a general level, it provides meaning and governs behavior, it's not about being correct

>>1914901
>but how it's practiced and what its theology is, is far from consistent with what it was a thousand years ago.
Hinduism allows for changes in practice and theology, as the actual religion is not even something written down, but part of the culture. The idea of Dharma is not quite the same as your 'Logos'. The Dharma has not changed since it was conceived.

>>1916728
EG Islamic belief that Christian texts are falsified accounts of real stories, and Christian belief that the Quaran is nothing more than post-scriptual fanfiction

>>1916730
The general idea a lot of christian have is that if any change is allowed it would mean that Christs teachings during his lifetime werent sufficient which is insluting towards his Godhood

>>1916739
Isn't it obvious that religious texts are just stories, not accurate representations of true events?

>>1916760
Yes it blatantly is to a gnostic, smartass, which is why the question is blatantly supposed to be directed towards religious people.

>You don't know and that's why it's called faith!!

Where exactly is the line between faith and delusion?

>>1916771
Faith is true.

>>1916765
Yeah
I don't think religious people concern themselves about whether their religion is "correct" or not

>>1916771
The whole >"just have faith bro" is a bad meme made up by modern protestants in the US who can't reconcile both their faith and modern science

>>1916781
>religious people dont think their religion is true
You dont know many Muslims irl do you?

>>1916791
>religion is true
Believing something to be true doesn't make it true and correct, right? They don't care

>>1916820
What the fuck are you even talking about? Can you stop moving the goalposts every 2 seconds and actually formulate a real argument?

>>1916833
See
>>1916781

>>1916820
>They don't care
We do, though, so there's that.

>>1916791
>religious people dont think their religion is true
Of course they think their religion is true, but they aren't concerned if it's correct or not

>>1916929
Isn't that literally lying though

>>1916778
You beleive delusions are true as well. That's what makes them delusions and not fantasies.

>>1914616

We find ourselves lost in a woods, an infinite woods where every scenario COULD possibly play out. To find the EXISTING set of possibilities would take an infinity of curiosity and wonder.wandering amongst the mysterious woods of infinity.

To find God is to find the big boss of judgement and evaluation.

It would only be the most haphazard of luck if such a being(s) where somewhat aligned with the survival and "work" of humanity.

It is also that apes will be faggots and be unable to say "I don't understand this". Instead like some crack whore of modern babylon, they try to plaster superficial wallpaper of explanation that props up the smile that everything is being taken care of. But beyond this smarmishness, there is the fact that certain people "feel presences" and talk to the presence.

Schizophrenia is just disconnected areas of the brain bypassing the coherence of the executive filter, filling the UI with garbage data.

"Feeling a presence" is a bit different and probably has a higher correlation with the creation of ad hoc systems of moral judgement. The person would have already been "prepared" by an explanation for that feeling of presence (God).

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>>1914616
Because humans can mental gymnast itself to convince themselves of anything.

>>1914821
>>1914875
>>1915820
>>1917578

Assume:
>1) All that exist is governed by set of laws of nature.
>2) The supernatural act outside the law of nature

Therefore:

>The supernatural is outside of existence

Therefore:

>The supernatural does not exist!

Religious and spiritual fags on suicide watch when?

>>1917699

But the "laws of nature" only hold in so far much that every observation WILL match our predictions.

Knowledge is a rarity on this planet, but everyone assumes they are rich in it.

If you want an easy metaphor, think of a host computer and a guest VM. The operation of a VM consistently matches what theories would say. But the VM simulation is controlled by the host hypervisor, which is bound by different laws than the simulation.

Skepticism is the only proper face to show to the morphing tides of Maya.

>>1915984
literally why

muslim here, pretty fed up with islam desu. convince me not to dump the whole thing

>>1914635
you're not alone

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>>1917710

>Knowledge is a rarity on this planet, but everyone assumes they are rich in it.

Speak for yourself.

I did in no point assume that we 21th century human human can observe or comprehend all existence in it totality.

>If you want an easy metaphor, think of a host computer and a guest VM. The operation of a VM consistently matches what theories would say. But the VM simulation is controlled by the host hypervisor, which is bound by different laws than the simulation.

In your metaphor, the Law of nature will not be the Virtual Machine, not even the host computer, but the universe that contain the host computer and Everything beyond it.

I used "All that exist" in my first assumption for a reason.

Your metaphor is poorly thought and invalid.

The supernatural is a Logical impossibility of existence pure and simple.

I can accept the existence of god like beings, but to say they are supernatural like in all religions, is pure no-sense.

>>1917699
And yet it happens anyway. The supernatural doesn't care whether you think it's "impossible" or not.

>How do you know your religion is correct?
I just do. There's no science in faith.

>Do you believe your own particular brand of Protestantism, Orthodoxy, Catholocism, Islam or whatever is the one true way?
Yes. It's the only one that has stayed true since it's inception and just change the word of God every century to innovate and change for society. Society should accept religion, not the other way around.

>And that all other people are doomed to hell?
Non-believers go to hell yes. That's the whole point of believing isn't it? To fear hell?

>Or if you're Christian, do you extend your understanding of other christians acceptance into heaven by God? If so, why believe in your form of the religion over any other?
Not Christian.

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>>1914616
Literally unable to know if your religion is true because religion is based off of myth and legend...

>>1917761

The point is that you can't be sure of whatever you're talking about.

You can only hold positions where you invest body and mind.

If you can't limit the scope of your propositional framework, based on a naive dominance of visible phenomena, then it's fucking useless.

The simulated might be in a different universe of mechanics than the simulator.

You don't get to cheat with semantics, boy.

>>1917957

Hell boy, I'll give you a chance.

Tell me how you pared down the infinity of possible mechanics with an infinite range of configurations to something that coheres with a naive realist epistemology of bipedal apes?

I understand, it works for everyday means but you don't get to cheat mastery of the known and unknown by extrapolating that your everyday epistemology and everyday reasoning are sufficient enough to approach Maya.

>>1917815
Whats your belief?

>>1916949
Well I'm not sure about that, I think their just uninterested and lazy, they don't want to question what they believe and do any further inquiries into anything.
Then again, I don't think we have the capacity to verify the correctness of everything we believe to be true, but I guess science is kind of trying to do that.

>>1918198
They're, not their

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>>1916704
The quran says that humans have clay/dirt in them (infact it says god created humans using dirt)
and scientific analysis it turned out that the elements we we created out of, does exist in soil.

pretty fucking mind blowing desu.

>>1914901
>Constantine !!m+/90K/qoQS
Kill yourself faggot. You've only managed to tarnish the image of Orthodox Christianity with your heresy.

>>1918355
not really.

religions prior to islam said humans were made out of earth.

even the word 'human' comes from the etymological root meaning 'earth'.

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>>1918395
how about this

Noah's flood

the bible describes the flood that it took over the whole earth (which is obviously wrong)

the quran says the flood was only local (which is more logical, there is also archaeological evidence for a flood during that time and place)

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>>1915176

>>1919358
show me the evidence it says that please

>>1919670
read noah's flood in both the quran and bible (the bible says it was worldwide, the quran says it was local)

Acheology article that proves it happened in that time and place
idosi.org/wjihc/wjihc1(3)11/7.pdf

>>1919696
i mean show me the verses of the quran that say it was a local flood

Because God told me I'm right. I can feel it.

>>1920029
>>1919696
I just read surah nuh and i dont see any evidence that it was local. All i can find is zakir naik and other preachers claiming it was local.

>>1920066
>>1920029
hey guys

surah 23;27 (if you read arabic) says it was a local flood

because it basically says the following:

noah, make an ark and put yourself, your family and your believers in it, but do not put the people who defied your word (in this case the people city of hud) because we're going to drown them

so they're saying they're going to drown hud, and it does not imply anywhere else that the flood ate the whole globe.

>>1916667
I hope this post is a joke.

>>1920121
It doesn't say local at all.

https://quran.com/23:27

>>1920153
first of all i said (if you read arabic)

second of all, it says 'put everyone in the boat except those who defied you' and that means The city of hud, which means ONLY the city of hud was rekt by the flood

>>1920185
I've studied Arabic for 4 years so don't try that trick on me.

There is no mention of locality there, nor is there any indication that the people of Hud are intended as the "إِلَّا مَن سَبَقَ عَلَيْهِ الْقَوْلُ مِنْهُمْ" in question.

Also considering that Hud was an Arab prophet that apparently came after Noah... why do you keep calling Noah's people the people of Hud?

It says
فَاسْلُكْ فِيهَا مِن كُلٍّ زَوْجَيْنِ اثْنَيْنِ وَأَهْلَكَ ۖ

"So put in it from all two mates/spouses **and your family...**"

إِلَّا مَن سَبَقَ عَلَيْهِ الْقَوْلُ مِنْهُمْ

"Except those upon whom preceded the decree.."

That verse makes no reference to the people of Hud, but to the family members of Noah upon whom destruction was decreed, which traditionally refers to the son of noah who wouldn't listen to him. (If you understand arabic) أَهْلَكَ means 'your family' or your people. It is a stretch to say that this أَهْلَ refers to Noah's community only when this word has two meanings, with the traditionally understood narrative pointing towards it being his family member, not 'only' his local community. By your logic we could say only Noah's son and daughter in law died in the flood.

There is no way for you to interpret that to mean a local flood that didn't cover the whole world. In fact I doubt you would be able to find an early tafsir that didn't maintain the global flood narrative since early muslims were heavily reliant upon israilliyat narrations to contextualize the vague statements in the Qur'an. All it says is put on the boat everyone from your family except those upon whom destruction was decreed (ie. from your family). This is obvious since, syntactically, the مَن here goes back to أَهْلَكَ so there is no other way to interpret this except to mean those who defied him from his family...

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>>1920390
>إِلَّا مَن سَبَقَ عَلَيْهِ الْقَوْلُ مِنْهُمْ
>"Except those upon whom preceded the decree.."
you literally mentioned it

those whom preceded the decree, were infact hud.

>>1920463
I just explained to you how that is not the case.

Learn to read arabic properly. It says "and your family except those (مَن particle connecting back to أَهْلَ) upon the word preceded upon them.. meaning except those from this family. No mention of hud at all. And you make another error by thinking Noah's people were the people of Hud, when that isn't the case.

>>1920509
*upon whom the word/decree preceded upon them

this is getting heated !!,
considering islam,if you believe in the God of Abraham,then mohammed is a false prophet,
cause every prophet was from isreal,since they are the choosen ppl of God,and the prophets were about a certain savior (if u christian then it is jesus).
islam is the most false religion imo.

>>1919358
The bible says the flood took place when the continent was one land mass. Peleg was so named because the earth was split in his time.

So according to Genesis it was Pangea-->flood-->Pangea for 100 more years-->continents

Pretty amazing desu.

I don't understand how Mohammedans can truly believe that:
>Abraham through Jesus were Muslims
>That the Kaaba was built by Adam, and then rebuilt by Abraham and Ishmael
>That Abraham was to sacrifice Ishmael'
>That Christians and Jews are corrupted Muslims
>That schizophrenic-tier eschatology
And all the other historical revisionist bullshit they fucking believe.

Protestants and pagans are the same...

>>1914616
Diesm am besten.

>>1920607
You think humans existed when Pangea was around? Are you fucking retarded? You're reaching, bro

ZZZZZ

>>1917815
>I just do
How do you believe in faith. I'm not trying to be a smartass I just don't get how somebody can believe in something without any evidence.

>>1914616

Mormons are brainwashed cult society.

>Golden Plates found in the dirt in the Americas, claiming Jesus has already been here/there

It's like a graffiti tag, "Jesus was here".

>>1922029
The have 'evidence' because their standard for evidence is really low

>>1921761
>Abraham through Jesus were Muslims
A Muslim means a submitter to God and followers of His prophets. Being the prophets of their time, Jesus and Abraham and their followers by definition were Muslims, however the people who deny Mohammad's prophethood cease being Muslims in the strict sense, but are instead Ahlul-Kitaab (People of the Book)

>That the Kaaba was built by Adam, and then rebuilt by Abraham and Ishmael
Religion makes bold claims like the Garden of Eden, Parting of the Red Sea and the Great Flood all the time. Is this really beyond belief?

>That Abraham was to sacrifice Ishmael'
Debated within theological circles. Some hold the child to be sacrificed to be Isaac, some Ishmael.

>That Christians and Jews are corrupted Muslims
Not corrupted, we believe that (depending on your theological stance) that either the holy books were physically corrupted, a la the story of Moses on the Mountain, or their interpretations became corrupted over time.

>That schizophrenic-tier eschatology
"My eschatology is totally believable, but the other guys' are totally schizophrenic!"
Lol

>>1918394
What have I ever said that's heretical?

>>1914635
This. I thought I was the only one.

>>1922067
>A Muslim means a submitter to God and followers of His prophets. Being the prophets of their time, Jesus and Abraham and their followers by definition were Muslims, however the people who deny Mohammad's prophethood cease being Muslims in the strict sense, but are instead Ahlul-Kitaab (People of the Book)
Nice try.

>Religion makes bold claims like the Garden of Eden, Parting of the Red Sea and the Great Flood all the time. Is this really beyond belief?
Of course it is beyond belief. We know the Kaaba was a pagan holy site for various Bedouin tribes. Once a year they would make a pilgrimage where they would worship their pagan gods, sounds familiar to al-Hajj doesn't it?

Now your "prophet" comes along, claims it was built by Adam, but also by Abraham and Ishmael. Throws out all the idols except his favorite one, the black rock. Also keeps the pilgrimage tradition.

Please, at least read your own books.

Narrated Abdullah: When the Prophet entered Mecca on the day of the Conquest, there were 360 idols around the Ka'bah. The Prophet started striking them with a stick he had in his hand and was saying, "Truth has come and Falsehood has Vanished.. (Qur'an 17:81)" —Sahih Al-Bukhari, Book 59, Hadith 583

>Debated within theological circles. Some hold the child to be sacrificed to be Isaac, some Ishmael.
The Hebrews, whom the story belongs to describe Ismael as being the sacrifice. Again, some guy comes in thousands of years after to claim something else.

>Not corrupted, we believe that (depending on your theological stance) that either the holy books were physically corrupted, a la the story of Moses on the Mountain, or their interpretations became corrupted over time.
Still, historical revisionist bullshit. All done by an illiterate man.

Remember that time when Muslims were required to pray towards Jerusalem? Remember how Jews weren't interested at all in Muhammad's religion so he decided you now have to pray towards Mecca?

>>1924091
>Remember that time when Muslims were required to pray towards Jerusalem? Remember how Jews weren't interested at all in Muhammad's religion so he decided you now have to pray towards Mecca?
not that guy you were talking to but, elaborate on this?

>>1922067
>>1924091
>The Hebrews, whom the story belongs to describe Ismael as being the sacrifice. Again, some guy comes in thousands of years after to claim something else.
Pardon me, I did mean Isaac, not Ishmael.

Also I should add that the theological debate you say exists is only present in Islamic circles, because the Quran fails to mention the name. It is pretty clear who is the sacrifice when you read the Hebrew Bible.

On another note, if you're on this board I assume you love history. I don't understand how you can get behind a religion that annihilated so many peoples' history, religion, culture, and language.

For example the concept of Jahiliyyah. Mesopotamia, Babylonian Empire, Sumeria, Akkadian Empire, Assyrian Empire, Chaldeans, Persians, Medes, Egypt. Astronomy, mathematics, wheel, cart, libraries, paved roads, administration, medicine, architecture.

I wish Zoroastrianism would have spread, not Islam.

>>1924305
Mizrah is the original concept in Judaism. Jews in the diaspora had to pray towards Jerusalem. Qibla is the Muslim equivalent.

From 610-623 AD, Muslims prayed towards Jerusalem. This was to make Medina's Jews convert. As you might realize, it did not work at all. So Muhammad 'suddenly' had a 'revelation' that Mecca is the Qibla now. This 'revelation' happened during noon prayers at Masjid al-Qiblatayn in Medina.

We know that Muhammad went to great lenghts to pander to Jews and Christians so they would join his new religion. For example, when he cleared out the ancient pagan site, the Kaaba, he kept the black stone and the pilgrimage tradition. He also spared an icon of the Virgin and Child, and frescoes of Abraham.

Ellenbogen, Josh; Tugendhaft, Aaron (18 July 2011). Idol Anxiety. Stanford University Press. p. 47.

>>1924091
>nice try
what he actually said was true

>the black rock
It was proven to be a meteorite from space, which was the same thing said in the quran.

>Of course it is beyond belief. We know the Kaaba was a pagan holy site for various Bedouin tribes.
noop, it was never holy, the only thing pagans did to it is keep their shitty idols there when it was captured by them

>Once a year they would make a pilgrimage where they would worship their pagan gods
no they never used it for pilgrimage.

> but also by Abraham and Ishmael
yes, built by abraham which was proven.
Paran in the bible is mecca today.

>Remember that time when Muslims were required to pray towards Jerusalem? Remember how Jews weren't interested at all in Muhammad's religion so he decided you now have to pray towards Mecca?
yeah,and? god damned the jews and put them off from being his chosen people, so he commanded muslims not to pray like them.

>>1924384
>He also spared an icon of the Virgin and Child, and frescoes of Abraham.
what
the sira said he destroyed all the idols

>>1920607
>it took 100 years for pangea to become modern continents

>>1924403
Did you read what you wrote before posting?

>noop, it was never holy, the only thing pagans did to it is keep their shitty idols there when it was captured by them
Okay my friend, whatever you say.

>no they never used it for pilgrimage.
You got me...

>yes, built by abraham which was proven.
>Paran in the bible is mecca today.
P-please stop proving me wrong!

>yeah,and? god damned the jews and put them off from being his chosen people, so he commanded muslims not to pray like them.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

>>1924425
Quotation right there, you don't have to take my word.

Well he kept the black stone which was there well before Islam, as was the Kaaba and the 360+ idols. Notice the peculiar shape of the black stone, looks similar to female genitalia. It was common for people of that geographical area to mark places of worship with stones. The Tanakh and Quran both mention this.

The black stone was probably a fertility idol.

>>1924486
the black stone was associated with abraham, there's nothing pagan about it.

like the other anon said black stone was in fact proven to be a meteorite that fell from space

>looks similar to female genitalia
no, it's just a stone with a bit of hollowness it in, the white paint around it in the kaaba's walls just makes it look like that
did you even look at some google pics about it?

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>>1924091
>>1924305
>>1924403
>>1924425
>The biblical injunction against idol worship includes (1) idol worship conforming to the pagan rituals (Ex. 20:5; Deut. 12:30; cf. Sanh. 61b); (2) bowing down (Ex. 34:14); (3) offering a sacrifice to another god (i.e., to idols, Ex. 22:19), which, according to the rabbis, includes the performance of any of the rituals that form part of the cult prescribed for the service of the Lord (e.g., the actual slaughtering of the sacrifice, the offering of incense, the offering of libation), although that particular ritual is not generally used in the service of the idol (Sanh. 7:6; cf. Sanh. 60b); (4) paying homage to an idol (Ex. 20:5) – according to the rabbis this prohibition refers to the veneration of an image...
>...even if there is no intention of worshiping, such as kissing the idol or caressing it (Sanh. 7:6; cf. Sanh. 63a).


>>1924509
Kissing and/or caressing fertility idols is how you receive favors from it.

The black stone was MOST LIKELY the unusual rock used to mark the place of worship (the Kaaba). And due to its shape, it was most likely a fertility idol.

>the black stone was associated with abraham, there's nothing pagan about it.
That's what you people teach. I'm talking facts here. I've stated such facts already, go read.

>like the other anon said black stone was in fact proven to be a meteorite that fell from space
I already stated that unusual rocks were used to mark places of worship.

Yet you people WILL continue in your ignorance. There's just no way to get you out of your ignorance, I don't know why I try.

>like the other anon said black stone was in fact proven to be a meteorite that fell from space
This is a fucking lie. This hypothesis is doubted by modern geologists. It has just been attributed to meteoric origin. Either way, it fits in with the marking of a holy place, and with it being a fertility icon.

>Pic related, Muslims scramble to kiss the black rock

>>1924547
>Kissing and/or caressing fertility idols is how you receive favors from it.
your argument is null since muslims are only supposed to merely touch the stone, and the stone is merely nothing but a link between heaven and earth and you're not supposed to receive any boons or favors from it.. touching rocks and receivings favors, what is this, fucking skyrim?


>That's what you people teach. I'm talking facts here. I've stated such facts already, go read.
no you're talking shit and you're not paying attention
what part of <<paran desert is today's mecca>> do you not understand? just google 'paran mecca' and read the articles about them, and you'll figure out everything else

>The black stone isn't a meteorite
http://worldnewsdailyreport.com/saudi-arabia-black-stone-of-mecca-revealed-to-be-a-meteorite/

>>1924547
>>The biblical injunction against idol worship includes (1) idol worship conforming to the pagan rituals (Ex. 20:5; Deut. 12:30; cf. Sanh. 61b); (2) bowing down (Ex. 34:14); (3) offering a sacrifice to another god (i.e., to idols, Ex. 22:19), which, according to the rabbis, includes the performance of any of the rituals that form part of the cult prescribed for the service of the Lord (e.g., the actual slaughtering of the sacrifice, the offering of incense, the offering of libation), although that particular ritual is not generally used in the service of the idol (Sanh. 7:6; cf. Sanh. 60b); (4) paying homage to an idol (Ex. 20:5) – according to the rabbis this prohibition refers to the veneration of an image...
>>...even if there is no intention of worshiping, such as kissing the idol or caressing it (Sanh. 7:6; cf. Sanh. 63a).
...what?
Why are you quoting the torah? we're talking about islam here

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>>1914616
You want to know the truth?

>How do you know your religion is correct?

I don't. I was born into a family that practices X religion and I've been taught how to be a good X. I know the rules and the history of it, so I try to push it onto others whenever I can.

Do I know if a deity exists? Do I know if there's a heaven or hell? Of course I don't. I'll see after I'm dead. Even if there's not, nothingness sounds pretty comfy.

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>>1924581
Every single argument you people make consists of saying "you're wrong, I'm right".

That link is NOT AN ACADEMIC paper.

>Local samples of sand where taken from a 2 km radius from the emplacement of the stone, which revealed its first clues. “We found important quantities of iridium, a metal that is found in meteorites with an abundance much higher than its average abundance in the Earth’s crust. We also found many shatter cones, a rare geological feature that is only known to form in the bedrock beneath meteorite impact craters or underground nuclear explosions” he adds.

The actual thing was not investigated. These are not concrete conclusions but assumptions.

>The team of researchers hope the discovery will help shed light on the origin of the stone but also on the origins of Islam itself. “It is very interesting to see how, what started as the pagan worship of a meteorite, bloomed into, a few centuries later, a monotheistic religion that has spread around the world” comments religious historian Ahmed Ben Alifa.

Your own link supports my points. I bet you just pulled that out of Google without even reading it. Good job friend.

Also pic related, tell me it doesn't look like female genitalia.

>>1924585
>Why are you quoting the torah? we're talking about islam here
Not an argument. Your religion is largely based off the Jewish and Christian religions. Feel free to make a concrete argument any time soon.

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>>1914616
God told me, and I became a Christian after 22 years of atheism.

When material logic can not possibly come to explain an experience, what else can you do but cede? If you are an atheist and a literal message from God is not enough to convert you, you can not even honestly call yourself an atheist, you have instead taken science as a religion. I realized after my experience I would have to choose between "scientism" and Christianity and scientism could not explain my experience, and if I were to reject the experience because it was not "logical" (i.e. it contradicted scientific dogma) then I was only being religious in the other direction, my "pure" atheism was over no matter what I chose, and I chose God. In the end, the most logical choice was Christianity, I could not continue to refer to myself as logical if divine intervention could not convert me.

>>1925234
You sound stupid, I had a god experience where I thought angels were speaking to me, doesn't mean it was all real and not in my head. Mostly because I was mistaken in a couple of things

>>1925403
>>1925234
And I'm now an Atheist

>>1925403
You're so full of self-doubt and blind faith in strict materialism that you will not believe in God even if he communicates directly to you, it's sad really.

>>1914616
The Bible is the only Holy Text which gets creation correct.

>>1925234
>>1925416
Different anon here. I've hallucinated a great many things that aren't real. Your experiences aren't as trustworthy as you think they are.

>>1925403
Then how can you believe you have ever been right about anything? If a few mistakes is enough for you to proclaim something may have not been real? Why does this not extend to all of your experiences?

>>1925433
How can you be sure you aren't hallucinating right now? And that those hallucinations weren't actual reality?

>>1925437
Because other experiences aren't just in my head

The brain can do wild things

>>1925433
What I saw wasn't a hallucination.

Furthermore if you can't trust your own lucid senses you can not trust anything in this world, that isn't a life I want to live.

>>1925440
>What is reality head ass

>>1925443
How do you know? Hallucinations seem real, they seem all too real, how does one tell the difference?

>>1925448
And you know reality is actual reality because you think it is?

>>1925447
You understand. Too bad these other anons just don't seem to get it.

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>>1915176

>>1925440
>How can you be sure you aren't hallucinating right now?
I can't but I'm not going to waste my time worrying about it.

>And that those hallucinations weren't actual reality?
Maybe they were maaaan.

But to be honest I'm not about to start worshipping them.


Congratulations, you really made me think

>>1925497
Well, I'm glad. Now read your Bible. I'd prefer to see you in Heaven.

>>1925447
>What I saw wasn't a hallucination.
Why do you think that?

>if you can't trust your own lucid senses you can not trust anything in this world, that isn't a life I want to live.
I've no problem with people who are religious because the alternative is unappealing. I think it's a great reason to be religious, I just think that so called "religious experiences" are pretty terrible forms of evidence. Essentially useless.

>>1925504
I was trying to sarcastically meme you but your response was polite so now I don't know what to do.

>>1925644
You could try listening for once.

>>1925471
I know reality is actually reality because I live in reality

>>1914616

(...)

Traditions, written down or spoken!—And
This history in turn depends on trust
And faith for its acceptance.—Does it not?
So, now, whose faith and trust are most immune
To doubt? Least open to dispute? Your own?
That, surely, of our common ancestors
Or those who’ve shown their love for us from childhood Who never would deceive, unless of course
Deceiving us was plainly for the best?—
How can I count my fathers any less
Reliable than you do yours? Again,
Can I demand that you accuse your forebears
Of lies in order not to contradict
My own? Or turned around the other way.

(...)

Well, then!
Let each one, freed of prejudice, strive toward
The goal of an uncorrupted love!
Let each who has a ring take up the challenge
Of bringing his stone’s hidden strength to light! May he succeed with gentleness of spirit
With heartfelt toleration and forbearance
Good deeds, and deepest confidence in God!
And should the stone begin to show its powers
At work among your children’s children’s children Then when a thousand thousand years are over
I’d ask you to approach this bench again.
Some wiser man than I will sit in judgment
And render a decision!

>>1925234

I'm a materialist.

But I believe that god is powerful enough to create man through evolution if he wanted to and that his actions all obey the laws of physics.

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>>1914616
>How do you know your religion is correct?

I don't know. Religion has to be practiced. If I feel like I've achieved the purpose of my religion from following its teachings, then I'll know. If I die without achieving that purpose, then the religion either doesn't work(which I could never really know) or I didn't put in the effort.

>or whatever is the one true way? And that all other people are doomed to hell?

I believe the one true way has always existed. I think the religion I follow explains the one true way the best, but a person doesn't need to follow a religion to practice the truth or achieve freedom. No one is doomed because they don't follow a religion and no one is guaranteed salvation from following a religion.

>>1915087
There's different levels of truth. Some religions contain more truths, and some contain less.

We believe Sikhism is the complete truth, while other religions contain parts of it.

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>>1924599
>link shows that they analysed the local samples of the sand
>N-NO THEY DIDNT

and the only reason the pagans did pilgrimage is because they saw abraham doing it, google the origins of the black stone
so muhammed put pilgrimage back again because it was done by abraham

here's what the black stone looks like you tard. pic related

>Not an argument. Your religion is largely based off the Jewish and Christian religions. Feel free to make a concrete argument any time soon.
yeah but they're still separate religions you retard

>>1921928
>he trusts the scientific account of when Pangea was
>>1924441
>HURR GOD CAN'T MOVE LAND AROUND

>>1926629
Not the same anon, but
>analysed the local samples of the sand
>Implying that local sand and black stone is the same thing

>>1924581
>what part of <<paran desert is today's mecca>> do you not understand? just google 'paran mecca' and read the articles about them, and you'll figure out everything else
About that...
>The Wilderness or Desert of Paran is said to be the place where Abraham's wife Sarai and her Egyptian servant girl Hagar (Genesis 16:1) by permission bore him a son Ishmael were sent into exile from Abraham's dwelling in Beersheba,as a result of which Hagar "departed, and strayed in the wilderness of Beer-sheba" (Genesis 21)
>Beer-Sheva (/bJərˈʃiːbə/; Hebrew: בְּאֵר שֶׁבַע About this sound Be'er Sheva [beʔeʁˈʃeva]; Arabic: بئر السبع About this sound Bi'ir as-Sab [biːr esˈsabeʕ]) is the largest city in the Negev desert of southern Israel.
>For Arabic People, especially Muslims to link Paran with Mecca is imperative for the very existence of Islam as a religion
Abraham exiling them towards Paran =/= Abraham being there and forming a place of worship

>>1927117
not the guy you were talking to, but check this

>Joshua 6:14-16
>14 So on the second day they marched around the city once and returned to the camp. They did this for six days.
>15 On the seventh day, they got up at daybreak and marched around the city seven times in the same manner, except that on that day they circled the city seven times.
>16 The seventh time around, when the priests sounded the trumpet blast, Joshua commanded the army, “Shout! For the Lord has given you the city!

It is unknown why the Jews circled or circumambulated Jerusalem seven times.(muslims also hover around mecca 7 times btw) The number 7 is unknown. It's just there in the Scriptures. If anything, this proves that there is a lot more from rituals and Commands in the Bible that are missing today. This is just one example. The Bible has examples of great things that are almost entirely not talked about in it. For example, the Bible very briefly talks about Enoch, and how GOD Almighty loved him so much that He took Enoch to Heaven in his body so that he wouldn't have to taste death:

In other words
>did the bible just prophesize the hajj?
>did the bible

>>1914616
I'm a portuguese Roman Catholic dating a Buddhist from Taiwan.

My family and I are rather...liberal as catholics I guess. We believe getting into heaven is all based on being a good person. Living a good life and trying to follow the 10 commandments. And avoiding the 7 deadly sins.

I offer prayers for my gf to my God, and she's gotten my a prayer bead inscribed with her patron God (which happens to be the God of war)

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>>1927457
>tfw no god of war worshipping gf
fuck, that'd be rad as hell

>>1917699
Do you understand faith? Do you not see that it is the driving force in all these actions, regardless? Do you not see it in your own assumptions? Why must you criticize others, for their form od what you already have.