What is the history of the 'Western civilization is

>>1895914
1789, 1918, 1945.

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>>1895914
Google Oswald Spengler

>inb4 Hank references

>>1895916

>1789
>1918
>1945

How about NOW???

>>1895952
Started collapsing in the 1970's with the oil crisis then recovered for the 80's and 90's, after 9/11 it started going to shit again then in 2008 it REALLY started going to shit after the financial crisis which the middle and lower classes never recovered from

white people tend to over dramatic drama queens about their life circumstances; a minor discomfort is considered a civilizational collapse while people living in the third world in absolute squalor is just a fact of life

get back to me when you have to work 12 hours a day to buy a serving of white rice then I'll have considered your civilization collapsed, whitey

>>1895987
but third world foreigners are one of the biggest believers in le west is declining memery.

>>1895914

Came from Spengler and fears of Islam becoming the dominant culture in the west, which it won't

http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2015-04-28-claims-about-decline-west-are-‘exaggerated’

>>1896042
Maybe on /int/, but the overwhelming majority of people don't really give a fuck about the West, or just think of it as a distant fairyland and gladly spread their assholes for Hollywood's blatant promotion of American cultural ideals and globalism

Just like how the West doesn't needlessly care (speaking generally, not about policy makers) about the rest of the world, the rest of the world doesn't care about the West. People have to feed their families and move up the social ladder

>>1895914

it's a pessimistic meme that makes the rounds every so often. here's an example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decadent_movement

>>1896057
>which it wont
How will it not?

>>1895963
>never recovered from
nigga it's been 8 years, it's bad but on the timescale of the fate of civilizations, "wealth inequality going up a bit and houses being expensive" is fucking nothing.

>>1897986
How will it?

Hard mode: No picture diagrams that don't cite any sources and have inflammatory caps lock for no good reason

>>1895914
>there are people that post on /his/ without having read spengler

The fate of empires and search for survival, by Sir John Bagot Glubb

>>1895914
Every civilization has that same meme.

I haven't read up on this or anything,

but would I be able to argue an instance at either the assassination of Julius Caesar, or the Ascension of Augustus?
(i.e. Senatorial/Republican worries)

It's literally a meme pushed by right-wingers. (I'm right-wing myself)

>>1897986
Because Islam is dying. Wahhabism is a swan song; the death rattle of a dying force. The Saudi's export terrorism because if they don't it will swell in their own country. Every dollar they give to Wahhabists is another dollar spent further radicalizing their own populace against their own rule. They frantically spend more and more to try and outpace it, but they never can.

And one day they won't be able to, be it because the Israeli's are tired of them existing, or the US decides Turkey is a better ally, or because Iran finally becomes the dominant power it dreams of becoming, or because some mythical pan-Western nationalist alliance decides to stop putting up with the Saudi's whole "overgrown manchild playing with daddy's money" thing.

And when that happens the only force actually holding together the Islamic religion - from a theological perspective as opposed to a bunch of atheists who have a shared cultural and historical tradition and legacy - collapses because Iran sure as shit isn't going to put up with the dribble the Saudi's have been spewing, the SEA Muslims would give Islam up in a hearbeat if it'd profit them, and Pakistan is full of incompetent loons.

>>1899356
>Saudi Arabia
>the only force actually holding together the Islamic religion
topkek

>>1899356
>the richest and most deeply entrenched in the global economy Muslim state will simply whither away and lose influence because reasons

It's the modern version of heraclitus/plato crying about change because it makes them feel uncomfortable but less excusable.

History is not a continuous improvement.

Western Europe had a huge decline once, that culminated with the fall of Rome. Chinese history is all about their Empire rising and falling.

In the late 1960's there was some moral decline. People got more promiscuous, drug use increased, etc. And it is not a conservative meme of people "wanting to go back to the old days that never existed". The American soldiers that spend 8 years locked in Vietnam couldn't recognize their own country when they came back.

>>1895914
Western Civilization in this case should be understood to mean the time period beginning with the early modern era up to the present day. This contrast to the previous civilizations of Europe. Medieval, Roman, Hellenistic, etc.

The idea of the decline has nothing to do with material wealth and everything to do with moral, spiritual and intellectual wealth which has been rapidly declining since the 1960s.

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>>1899356
>Because Islam is dying.

>>1896636
Not that I disagree with you but you have far more people in the West who even in an Orientalistic sense care about the non-western world than the Other way around

For example You don't see say Japanese media trying to explain why Germay's Birth rate is declining the way Japan's Birth Rate has gotten

>>1895987
Note to self, never forget how retarded nonwhites are

>>1899350
>a meme

if you compare the West with what it was a 100 years ago you can't tell me that it hasn't declined in influence and power

>>1896042
But they don't believe in it enough to not come here

>>1899592
They come to our land for material wealth, not because we aren't declining. It isn't about GDP.

>>1899350
if you think that collapse and decline are memes, you cant, by definition, be a "right-winger"

basically OP, Oswald Spengler wrote a book.
People pretended to have read the book and went on autistic rants that had nothing to do with what Spengler pictured.

The end

>>1895914
It's been around for at least 2700 years.

Back in ancient Greece, Hesiod wrote about a past golden age that had declined to the shitty present-day world.

>>1899609
That's a little different. Hesiods system has to do with metaphysical cycles like the Kali Yuga.

The Golden age described by Hesiod was literally the equivalent of the Edenic Age in Abramhamic mythology.

>>1895914
Every civilization goes through a lifecycle where it's power and influence wanes before it dies and becomes something else entirely

The modern Western world, born from the liberal ideals of the French Revolution, has seen its time in the sun slowely but surely fade as places like China and India once again start reasserting their dominance. There's nothing that can be done to avoid this fate, only delay it. It's inevitable

>>1899609
Ancient Greece had completely different values and ideals compared to modern day Western Europe. I wouldn't consider them part of the "Western World" in the present sense.

>>1899582
it has, especially culturally

>>1899582
Duh, because 100 years ago it was riding an unsustainable lead caused by technological and societal advantages unparalleled in human history. Did you expect those to be maintained or compounded in the future?

>>1895914
What the fuck is 'Western civilisation'

You guys can't say 'muh hellenic roots', most Southeast Asian countries, Korea and Japan all have national history heavily influenced by ancient Chinese classics the same way the Greeks influenced all the European countries, are we gonna categorise everyone in NEAsia and SEAsia as 'Chinese' now

Different Western nations have different interests and different futures

Countries like Poland are undergoing good growth with positive birthrates, but they're not German so it doesn't matter I guess.

>>1899921
>are we gonna categorise everyone in NEAsia and SEAsia as 'Chinese' now
Yes, why not? They all are the same.

>>1899926
Thailand and Japan are not the same

Spain and Russia are not the same

Let's stop saying (arbritrarily umbrella) civilisation pls

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>>1895914
% of global wealth decreasing
% of global population decreasing

Plus there's the question of whether or not the West even has an identity. Racial equality and multiculturalism are both mainstream; the concept of a preeminent native race/culture is socially unacceptable. By any estimation, the West is declining in relevance and shpws no sign of being able (or even willing) to halt this death spiral.

>>1899609
This

Theories of civilizational collapse have been around since the first great collapse of civilization, the Bronze age collapse. They predate western culture entirely as this anon >>1899691 points out, that even in its earliest embryonic stages, a belief in the incipient collapse of civilization has been ingrained into the western mindset.

People thought that they were living in the end times during the height of the Roman Republic, the height of pax romana, even in 1000 AD people were prostrating themselves in a panic over fear that the end times would take place exactly 1,000 years after the life time of Christ. Throughout the 19th and 20th century apocalypse cults waxed and waned in popularity and yet life had a way of going on.

>>1899921
Me and my neighbour have different interests and functions, can you guys pls stop saying countries exist

>>1900134
Over the course of history, most civilisations *have* collapsed. You can't just say "here are some cherrypicked examples where X was wrong, so X must be wrong in this case".

>>1900126
Its hardly a new thing to hold the idea that the "West" is in decline, following WW1 that was a distinctly popular belief, and yet here we are, a hundred years later…

Same thing for Britain, the British are always complaining that they're a society that is in decline, about to become a third world country, and yet, a century and a half after they started voicing such fears, they're still here.

Western civilization and Western countries are more resilient than we give them credit for. You could view it as "Western civilization in decline", or you could view that the entire world has been Westernized to the extent - well, for countries that are making strides at least - that naturally the regions which are "westernized" are catching up. How we define the concept of what it means to be Western is important, which is why I use scare quotes around "West", as its an ideal which can change so quickly in its territorial and ideological content.

During the Cold War we wouldn't consider the Soviet bloc as being "Western" - no, propaganda made it explicitly clear, it was the West vs. the East. They were eastern, we were western. In the present day, would we consider them being removed from "Western civilization", when both Romania and Bulgaria are in the EU?

The borders and meaning of what it means to be Western change hugely, to an extent it is only in decline as much as we think it to be in decline. When the rest of the world has largely adopted our political and economic philosophy except for backwards shitholes in the Middle East, I'm unconvinced that we're in decline. Transition is a better wording.

>>1899921
Poland has one of the lowest birth rates in Europe, it is at 1.32 TFR.

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>>1900151
>>1900151
A broken clock is right twice a day, and since the failure of the first large scale civilizations during the transition between the bronze and iron ages, there hasn't been a catastrophic "collapse" of its kind since. Even the so called "collapse" of iron age societies were more of a gradual, multi-generational shift towards decentralized societies and since then, Western civilization has continued without interruption, just like Chinese civilization has existed since 200 BC and even when things were dire, such as warring periods like the three kingdoms period or during the An Lushan Rebellion, it eventually bounced back stronger than ever.

>>1900203
>Its hardly a new thing to hold the idea that the "West" is in decline, following WW1 that was a distinctly popular belief, and yet here we are, a hundred years later…

Yes, here we are, significantly declined. I honestly don't know what to say to somebody who denies that Europe had a greater share of global power in 1916.

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>>1900272
By what standard? Because we're no longer the only developed region on the planet? Because we no longer export cruelty on an international scale? Because nations no longer wage unapologetic profit-wars on one another?

>>1900272
Europe might not, but I'd say Europe's ideals are even more influential than they were a hundred years ago. Nobody relevant rejects European ideals of organizing the economy and most aren't able to really propose any alternative politically that hold out long-run, so Europe has won the ideological battle. How does that constitute decline, when everybody else only competes by adopting and becoming European themselves?

>>1899921
> You guys can't say 'muh hellenic roots', most Southeast Asian countries, Korea and Japan all have national history heavily influenced by ancient Chinese classics the same way the Greeks influenced all the European countries, are we gonna categorise everyone in NEAsia and SEAsia as 'Chinese' now

Actually Japan, Korea, China and north Vietnam make up what's known as the Sino-sphere precisely because of their Chinese heritage.

>>1900312
>By what standard?
By any standard that represents European prestige and culture.

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>>1900420
>By any standard that represents European prestige and culture.
Could you try being any more vague?

Rate of technological achievement? it's accelerating. GDP? They're absurdly higher today than they were before WWI. Quality of life? When was the last time someone you knew died of the Spanish Flu? Military capacity? Our military can rapidly project force anywhere in the world. Is it because we no longer live in a world where almost everyone who isn't "western" is a dirt poor peasant farmer?

Every culture experiences faster than normal growth when they industrialize because factory wage-earners have a better quality of life than subsistence farmers. That was as true for England in the 1820's as it was for America in the 1880's and Soviet Russia in the 1930's. But expecting that kind of growth to continue forever even if we replicate the regulatory environment is simply wishful thinking.

>>1900444
> Rate of technological achievement? it's accelerating. GDP? They're absurdly higher today than they were before WWI.

Spengler noted that civilizations shifting from valuing cultural/spiritual principals to valuing purely technological/material principals is part of the decline.

>Quality of life? When was the last time someone you knew died of the Spanish Flu?

How do you measure quality of life? For example suicide and drug/alcohol addiction is higher than ever among White males in the USA. Obviously their quality of life isn't better regardless of the fact they don't die from Spanish flu.

> Military capacity? Our military can rapidly project force anywhere in the world.

Our over extended military is only a drain on our civilization that enriches a rootless cosmopolitan elite.

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>>1900522
>Spengler noted that civilizations shifting from valuing cultural/spiritual principals to valuing purely technological/material principals is part of the decline.
>European politics, philosophy, science and communications were radically reoriented during the course of the “long 18th century” (1685-1815) as part of a movement referred to by its participants as the Age of Reason, or simply the Enlightenment.
This has been going on for centuries. Turns out the scientific method is a hell of a lot more effective at diagnosing illnesses than traditional western mysticism and chemistry is a hell of a lot more useful than alchemy.
>How do you measure quality of life? For example suicide and drug/alcohol addiction is higher than ever among White males in the USA.
But is that indicative of a long term decline or simply a short/intermediate reaction to localized effects like economic downturns and growing wealth disparities?
>Our over extended military is only a drain on our civilization that enriches a rootless cosmopolitan elite.
but this was the case even back then, and in this age of nuclear weapons and quickly communicating guerrilla networks, carving up the world using colonialism and naked conquest isn't feasible any more.

>>1900567
>This has been going on for centuries.

Spengler thought the West has been declining for centuries and this is part of the process.

> Turns out the scientific method is a hell of a lot more effective at diagnosing illnesses than traditional western mysticism and chemistry is a hell of a lot more useful than alchemy.

This is borderline irrelevant when discussing something as multifaceted as civilizational decline. The Western Worlds rapid advancement of medical science (thanks to European ingenuity) is good and entirely unique but it isn't what makes a civilization great or strong. I'd hope you wouldn't judge every civilization based primarily on their command of material sciences.

> But is that indicative of a long term decline or simply a short/intermediate reaction to localized effects like economic downturns and growing wealth disparities?

I really couldn't say.

> but this was the case even back then,

In the past European empires at least received some degree of wealth or prestige from military pursuits. They also had more autonomy against non-state actors.

and in this age of nuclear weapons and quickly communicating guerrilla networks, carving up the world using colonialism and naked conquest isn't feasible any more.

I agree, which is why we are moving towards large supranational unions. Although you should keep in mind this was induced by two World Wars and a shift in European global hegemony to the USA and USSR which had no intent of leaving their former rivals with any colonies. Things could have gone differently.

>>1899356
Islam will find a second life in Europe, America, and Canada
The West is much too tolerant to stand in its way

>>1895914

Civilization has always been decline, since the fifth century BC Greeks. It picked up a bit in the Victorian Era but ancient Greece has always been considered the peak.

>>1897986
Islam is in decline on the political front, with the last Islamic Empire falling almost 100 years ago. Islam needs to have political control to become a majority (See: Islamic History). It may stay in power in countries it is already established in, but as long as they don't have political control they are pretty powerless. The scary thing is that some groups may become powerful politically because they may outbreed to get a majority. The best deterrent to Islam is Christian Nationalsism of any kind.

anyone else got some good essays about civilization in decline?

https://archive.org/stream/ReligioPoetae#page/n125/mode/2up

>somebody disagrees with you on the internet
>THIS IS IT, WESTERN CIVILIZATION IS FUCKING DECLINING, THE HUMAN RACE IS FUCKED

this is what is happening.

>>1901528
>peak
>not even Christian

>>1899921
>Countries like Poland are undergoing good growth with positive birthrates, but they're not German so it doesn't matter I guess.

I'm Polish and that's horseshit. We are heading towards a demographic catastrophe in 20 years unless we let in more migrants. Fortunately, we take migrants from more sensible locations than Western Europe did.

Take a look at what is happening in Europe and what has be happening for the last two decades.

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People always think the world will end in their lifetime, that's why older people are so cynical and hate on everything.

Pro-tip: the world will continue when you're underground, just try to accept it.

>>1896042
How do you mean?

>>1903060
this isn't about some catastrophical event where humanity is wiped out, it's about cultural decadence, culture can change vastly over 1 lifetime, especially since the 20th century

>>1899551
>commonwealth member emigrates to commonwealth country.
>this means the west is dying.

>>1899275
You are a big fool

>>1900420
>By any standard that represents European prestige and culture.
>europe is far better regarded in the present day third world than it was a hundred years ago.
>european ideals influence third world movements
>european prestige is worse.

>>1899356
PAKISTAN IS THE SWORD OF ISLAM YOU KUFFAR.

People have a tendency to remember the good stuff and think that life was better when they were young. It's human nature. If you began with the Greeks you would know that even ancient Athenians had nostalgia and thought the current youngsters were rude and lazy, and not at all as polite and hard working as they were.

When this general sentiment of the human soul is applied as a narrative in history making. You get "Greek/Roman/Christian/European/White/Western civilization in decline" mumbo jumbo.

>>1895987
This

>>1903560
>even ancient Athenians had nostalgia and thought the current youngsters were rude and lazy, and not at all as polite and hard working as they were.

That was a fake quote created in the late 60's in response to people who complained about hippies.

>>1899650
The difference is a key element of Western Civilization is European (white)/Christian identity and tradition. When China and India Civilization declined, they kept their identity. Western civilization declines and this identity is lost with the influx of third world migration.

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>>1903736
You mean like how China was ruled for centuries by Manchurians who forced them to adopt foreign haircuts and to adopt their rural isolationist mentality which ultimately paralyzed China right as they were on the verge of industrialization and world hegemony?

There's another possibility, and it's that all cultures are transitional by nature, and the reason you perceive the west as "declining" is because it is transitioning into a form that is unfamiliar to you.

Hell, it wasn't that long ago that people thought America was going to hell in a hand-basket because Catholic immigrants from Ireland, Germany, and Italy who were more loyal to the Pope in Rome were swarming over here in their potato boats and bringing all the beer drinking rowdiness and mafia violence. But life just went on.

>>1903560
Your ignorance on this subject is astounding. Spengler's book has nothing to do with "nostalgia." Something that would be obvious to anyone who reads more than its title.

>>1895987
>>1903574
You two clearly haven't read anything about Spengler's book beyond the title and should post your anti-White soapboxing somewhere it'd actually be relevant to the discussion.

>>1904235
Irish, Germans and Italians were white and integrated nicely though. In Europe the immigrants aren't integrating whatsoever.

>>1899527
It has been declining in those aspects since long before the 1960s

>>1899888
No, hence the decline

>>1903041
From where?

>>1904429
>integrated nicely
over a long period of time.

[Chorus]
All religions make me wanna throw up
All religions make me sick
All religions make me wanna throw up
All religions suck
They all claim that they have the truth
That'll set you free
Just give 'em all your money and they'll set you free
Free for a fee

They all claim that they have 'the Answer'
When they don't even know the Question
They're just a bunch of liars
They just want your money
They just want your consciousness

[Chorus]
All religions suck
All religions make me wanna throw up
All religions suck
All religions make me wanna BELCH

They really make me sick
They really make me sick
They really make me sick
They really make me sick
They really make me sick
They really make me ILL

If God can vomit up the land, I'd like to see him give a shit

>>1904429
> were white

No they weren't "white" white, remember white back then was more restrictive bub. Irish Italians and Germans had a ton of bad shit attached to each of them that many people made up reasons for.

> integrated nicely though

Over long period of time and plenty of strife and discrimination. Not to mention the riots and the attack of immigrants.

>In Europe the immigrants aren't integrating whatsoever.

Very different scenario also Euros are super hard to please.

You say, 'God loves you. Come and buy the Good News'
Then you buy the president and swimming pools
If Jesus don't save 'til we're lining your pockets
God must be dead if you're alive

Circus-tent con-men and Southern belle bunnies
Milk your emotions then they steal your money
It's the new dark ages with the fascists toting bibles
Cheap nostalgia for the Salem Witch Trials

Stodgy ayatollahs in their dobble-knit ties
Burn lots of books so they can feed you their lies
Masturbating with a flag and a bible
God must be dead if you're alive

Blow it out your ass, Jerry Falwell
Blow it out your ass, Jesse Helms
Blow it out your ass, Ronald Reagan

>>1895987
>don't complain that the structure is collapsing until it has already collapsed

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>There are people in this thread who think Romans and Greeks were ""westerners""

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>'Western civilization is in decline' meme
It comes from malnourished pessimism a la Spengler/Evola/Schopenhauer, in the same way Žižek still believes in "the ultimate triumph of communism", in much the same way that the Asians still believe in "Eastern philosophies", or or minorities believe, despite all evidence to the contrary, that they are not inferior. This is the effect of the Western locomotive. Those it doesn't physically obliterate, it freaks out into denial.

As for the limited ressentiment kind of racism, seen in Japan for example, this they refute themselves. Who's sitting in chairs, sleeping in beds, and using spoons and forks? Are we the ones wearing kimonos or are they wearing suits? What do they teach in Japanese universities? Why are there even universities in Japan at all? Who has imported thousands of the other's words into their language? Who has the cultural inferiority complex — and deserves to have it?

And note that this goes also for every other reactionary group ever: from hippies to /pol/itical ideologues to real criminals. It's part of the richness and greatness of Western civilization that it can tolerate the existence of so many millions of losers and retards, while still forging full steam ahead with its goal — the creation of the Overman — without skipping a single beat. The degenerates call this steamroller effect of our culture — the marginalization of all groups not contributing to our culture's goal, and their reduction to clown- and freak-show status by our media — "social alienation", "materialism", "globalization", "desensitization", "degeneration", "decline" or any number of other nasty names; while between us it is known as simply "power".

>>1906501
What a bunch of bullshit.

It's built into Christian theology that we are sinful and degenerate and will only be saved when Christ returns. That's why the sentiment "things are generally getting better" was so revolutionary in the "Enlightenment" and why it triggers conservative folks to this day.

>>1906501
>It comes from malnourished pessimism a la Spengler/Evola/Schopenhauer
>pessimism
Acknowledging that everything dies eventually isn't pessimism, it's realism.

>>1904876
>>1904905
Deliciously rare

https://youtu.be/yQXNgCfAMjs

>>1906501

I can't tell if this is a satire of a teen who just skimmed over Nietzsche's wikipedia page or another /pol/ chump being serious.

>>1899386
It's because they have oil money, dipshit. When the desire for oil dries up, the only thing they have to boast is a vast fucking desert and a super gaudy city.

>>1895914
It's been there since the very beginning of western civilization. Don't believe the temporal exceptionalist faggots on /pol/

>>1906584
>>1906890
Clowns.

>>1906603
Acknowledging that everything dies eventually doesn't prove something in particular is currently declining (unless you are going for platitudes). Using that kind of logic stems from pessimism most likely.

>>1899386
>the richest and most deeply entrenched in the global economy Muslim state will simply whither away and lose influence because reasons

They fought the frackers and the frackers won.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/4002894-saudi-arabia-still-hemorrhaging-financial-reserves

>>1906127
Who? Spengler separates Greco/Roman civilization from western, as he should.

>>1904892
> Very different scenario also Euros are super hard to please.

Europeans view raping women , raping children and being ugly lazy dark skinned foreigners as displeasing.

>>1906501
>It comes from malnourished pessimism a la Spengler

Confirmed for never having read Spengler

>>1907920
Why? I read Decline at least.

>>1903369

How exactly is he wrong? It's a fucking minuscule timescale.

>>1900203
>everything hasnt gone totally to shit already
>therefore no decline

do you understand the meaning of decline?

>>1906501
Honestly, its either AI Overman via tech singularity or Spengler is absolutely correct
Thats how I see it at least. No way to predict

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>>1903612

Nostalgia is not a new concept.

I would say the myth of a great bygone era is present in every culture, but in the west it has much to do with the fall of Mycenean civilization and the dark ages of greece which preceded the classical era. Most of the formative literature was written in this period with the exception of Homer.

It happened again when Christianity destroyed the concept of Roma Eterna, by envisioning a time when Rome no longer existed. Civilization lost its sacred foothold, that was the beginning of the end.

Today by many measures it is hard to say if the West is in decline, the only indicator being that the USA is not as large a share of the world's economy as it once was, but its place is assured and the fundamentals of the economy are sound. If this were a Roman dynasty we'd be having a succession crisis right about now, and possibly civil war. The whole Trump V Clinton thing is an example of the system working, instead of raising private armies, the electoral system still garners respect, if less so than before.

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>>1908005
>the fundamentals of the economy are sound
>The whole Trump V Clinton thing is an example of the system working

>>1908019
the fact that it's just shitposting and not civil war means the system's working

>>1908019

>>1908110

Well, yeah. This is the history board after all. Almost every time there was a succession crisis in the later Roman period they had a civil war. That shit doesn't happen until Sulla, however. Considering that neither candidate has a military command, I highly doubt that we will see a civil war let alone an abortive coup.

The "system" was actually designed for just this scenario, in fact we've been spoiled, the founding fathers never expected us to have this much stability.

>>1896057
So the authors of this paper clearly have no idea what people mean when they say death of the west
They point out that immigrants increase the birth rate of western nations, and claim that's why the west isn't declining? The entire central fucking point of the death of the west is that immigrants are having too many babies. What a bunch of morons

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>>1908260
>, the founding fathers never expected us to have this much stability.
Or it's the inverse: that the United States government was designed from the ground up to be stable, very carefully crafted as a system where change occurs incrementally in all but the most extraordinary circumstances, and where the military is totally subordinate to civilian rule and generals tend to be high ranking bureaucrats rather than power players in their own right.

>>1908292
see
>>1904235
People have been bitching about immigrants ruining this country for as long as it's been around. The Know-Nothing party ran on an anti-Catholic platform in the 1850's as German, Irish, and Italian immigrants being the actual cause of all the country's problems (instead of, you know, the 600-lbs gorilla in the room)

>>1895987

This

It's really due to the fact that whites live in complete comfort without any real struggle that they can't endure any real hardship and it also explains why many of them are dumber than dogshit because they've never actually had to use their cognitive abilities to survive. You see this in the workplace with the differences in work attitude and ethics between brown immigrants and whites.

>>1904928
The structure is still strong as ever and still heavily benefits the west more then ever before.

>>1908384

It isn't difficult to pull up a two bit summary of The Decline of the West so you at least possess a vague understanding of what its about (which you clearly don't) before posting anti-White garbage on a post about Spengler's thesis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Decline_of_the_West

>>1908110
this is like saying that someone is healthy because their cancer hasnt metastasized yet

>>1908414
>The structure is still strong as ever
The media apparatus, fundamental to sustain the current power structure, is losing all credibility really, really fast.

The economic system that was put in place in the late 60's is also giving its last breaths.
It barely survived 2008, were it was inches away from absolute total collapse (i'm not the one saying this btw)

The political landscape both in the US and Europe is becoming ever more bizarre with each passing day, with an ever bigger disillusionment with the democratic process. This ties to the media crisis in large part.
Abuse of executive power is becoming normalized since 9/11

Militarily and diplomatically, the US has lost its credibility as a keeper of worlwide stability since the Iraq invasion. Since then, it only got increasingly worse.
We're now witnessing the beginning of a second Cold War.
Military projection is still undisputable, but the US is completely demoralized

The structure is NOT strong as ever, at all.

>>1895921
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsaieZt5vjk

>>1908736
the videos from that fag are the worst

>>1908765
why

>>1899320
I'd wait until later roman emperors.

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>>1908728
>is losing all credibility really, really fast.
With a declining fraction of conservatives whose faith in Fox News has been irrevocably broken and who have no other major news source to turn to for their misinformation

>The economic system that was put in place in the 1980's is also giving its last breaths.
fixed it for you.

> with an ever bigger disillusionment with the democratic process
No, right-wingers are losing faith in the persuasiveness of their own arguments and they're reading the writing on the wall and think the sky is falling. Left wingers are pissed at all the gerrymandering that the right-wingers have done to stay relevant but not disillusioned with democracy itself.

>Militarily and diplomatically, the US has lost its credibility as a keeper of worlwide stability since the Iraq invasion.
Thank a republican for that one.

> but the US is completely demoralized
We've just taken to using unmanned drones which are much easier to justify than boots on the ground

>“The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.”

Socrates: 471 BC - 399BC, Classical Athens.

>"Our sires' age was worse than our grandsires'. We, their sons, are more worthless than they; so in our turn we shall give the world a progeny yet more corrupt."

Quintus Horatius Flaccus: 65 BC - 8 BC, Rome

we've been complaining that those damn children have no manners and civilisation's in decline since before there was Civilisation.

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When people realized that pic related was inevitable thanks to Western technology and medicine.

>>1899356
>Because Islam is dying. Wahhabism is a swan song; the death rattle of a dying force.

As a cultural force it has only grown only the past 150 years.Before then much of the Islamic world's population was of "Friday only" Muslims. In Egypt for example drinking, whoring, and impious language was the norm back in the day.

Modern fundamentalist Islam may of gotten its start in a small part of then highly under developed land that would become the Saudi Arabia that we know of today but it got big in Egypt and the Ottoman empire. In both places it was a reaction against western influence at the time. In both places it lost out to secular nationalism. However after the loss of face of middle eastern secular nationalism in the 1960s it started to worm its way into power in those places.

Many people say that Saudi funding a number of Wahhabists missions is what has caused the rise of the influence of fundamentalist Islam. It surely has helped it. However it could not have gone very far with out local partners and receptive audience.

>All great civilizations throughout history eventually decline
>Westerners somehow think they are special

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>ctrl+f
>'birth'
>6,000,000 matches
What? I don't understand this. What you guys seem to forget is this low birthrate thing is happening literally everywhere, not just the west, even in urbanized parts of africa, though to a lesser degree (mostly in the south).

It's just that it happened in the west first.

>>1906501
t. doesn't understand Spengler and Nietzsche

>>1910823
Non-white immigrants in white countries have higher birthrates than white natives. At the rate western countries are accepting immigrant demographics are changing like never before. Immigrants also overwhelmingly vote left insuring that immigration continues at replacement levels for years to come.

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>>1908872
>>“The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.”

iirc that is from the clouds of Aristophanes which was supposed to be a satire of Socrates and philosophy. I believe Socrates stood up as it was being performed and pointed to himself, or bowed, so everyone knew who he was.

>we've been complaining that those damn children have no manners and civilisation's in decline since before there was Civilisation.

If I took two quotes from 1719 and 1928 that ran "every year I get richer", that would not imply that this was and will always be the case. The crashes of 1720 and 1929, and the subsequent periods of depression are not evidence that there have never been and will never be periods of prosperity. If I quoted a worker from 1932 that said "ever year I get poorer", that does not mean it was always the case. Civilisations decay spiritually. It is a fact often observed that "a great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within".

>>1895916
1918 especially

I highly recommend you listen to Decline cast.

I'm shilling for it because it's damn good and talks about this topic.

>>1910823
A European country takes net ~250,000 immigrants a year and assume that this figure is the leveling off figure, and we'll assume that this is the net of non-indigenous stock. The problem with net figures is that if a small European country of half a million saw 500,000 indigenous people leave, and 500,000 third world migrants come in, net migration is zero despite a total population replacement. We'll just assume that only non-indigenous people leave, and that the net figure is the number of the increase in the third world population in the country.

The 1st year immigrants will have twice the number of children than the indigenous population say, and those children that are the 2nd generation will have the same number of children as the indigenous population. This is true, but takes ~25 to 50 years to take effect. SO, before this stable reduction in birthrates is noticed, there will twenty five successive years of primary immigration, that is 6.4million people and you haven't even started yet. The country must take in a population of 6.4million with birthrates double that of the indigenous people before the first year immigrants have children, from which that second generation will have stable birthrates. This immigrant population, and the population descended from immigrants will multiply very quickly, and every year more and more people come. If a European country ends all migration, and says "lets wait for the immigrant birthrates to stabilize", they will most likely be in a minority position by the time it occurs, or will have to share their land with immigrant descend peoples. "This land is yours and mine, Abdul". Just chaos really, I don't know if immigration policy in the West is a product of insidious calculation by Western leaders, or just a product of their limitless incompetence. Either way, the West is doomed by demographics unless it can get its act together.

>>1910879
Yes, the left hate the indigenous proletariat so much that they imported a new proletariat from the third world.

>>1910988
The western working class (white men in particular) tends to vote conservative values and smaller government.

>>1911006
The UK labour party evolved from the union movement. It was the party of the workers, and now it is the party of the Pakistanis. The white working class are beginning to move to UKIP or apathy.

>>1908849
>With a declining fraction of conservatives whose faith in Fox News has been irrevocably broken and who have no other major news source to turn to for their misinformation
If you truly believe that FoxNews is the only media outlet in crisis, you're completely hopeless

>The economic system that was put in place in the 1980's
wrong, wrong, wrong
Current economic system dates to end of Bretton Woods and the start of free floating dollar.

>Left wingers are pissed at all the gerrymandering that the right-wingers have done to stay relevant but not disillusioned with democracy itself
This is not a partisan issue at all.

>>1899356
I agree with you in most of what you and but
>because Iran sure as shit isn't going to put up with the dribble the Saudi's have been spewing, the SEA Muslims would give Islam up in a hearbeat if it'd profit them, and Pakistan is full of incompetent loons.
That's a ridiculous, overly hopeful and really stupid guess to make.

>>1904429
Lel.

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>>1912628
>If you truly believe that FoxNews is the only media outlet in crisis, you're completely hopeless
It's the one that has been completely discredited by its own base and there really isn't another major substitute for conservatives. Liberals still largely trust their own news sources, which is half the reason why conservatives think there's a liberal bias.
>Current economic system dates to end of Bretton Woods and the start of free floating dollar.
You just might be on to something
>This is not a partisan issue at all.
When California adopted non-partisan redistricting Republicans got BTFO, Democrats completely took over the government, Their government got its financial shit together, and now it's on it's way to becoming the 5th largest economy in the world by itself (thanks partially to the Brexit).

The more states that adopt non-partisan redistricting, the more marginalized Republicans will become. And they know this.

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>>1912733

>>1912733
>california
>shit together
yeah sure thing dude. only being the most indebted state/province with the most debt, only beaten by Ontario, which has dramatically less people and output.

Honestly I wish Californians would put their money where their mouth is and stay in California, instead of bringing their shitty policies that ruined California to Texas.

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>Americans who defend capitalism blindly on /his/ because AMERICA and it's the only thing they've ever known and communism is evil of course

>>1913061
But California and Ontario can pay the debt off though and generate a lot of tax revenue.

Having debt is bad if you can't pay it at all.

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>>1913061
But their budgets are balanced and their credit rating is phenomenal so this is really a case where debts are a sign of investment, particularly in education and infrastructure, which are paying off economic dividends for California.

The reason half of Texas is a shithole is because they don't make investments in infrastructure so when an oil well goes dry the once bustling village turns into a ghost town because muh free hand. But look on the bright side: all 5 major metropolitan areas in Texas are Democratic strongholds and by 2024 it will be a battleground state, and will be the last whimper of Republican politics on the national stage. No wonder right-wingers are all fatalistic and bitching about the collapse of civilization.

>>1903041

I heart that one of your politicians wants to invite vietnamese migrants?

>>1910879
Source?

Pretty much all Asian except Southeast Asian immigrants have lower birthrates in the U.S and Australia, where they're getting most their immigrants, and so to do Middle Easterners of later generations

kys

>>1895963
Economy doesnt make a civilisation alone. The amount of money you have does not necessarily correlate with your cultivation.

>>1895987
Nah, Spengler thought in the long term and lived at a time were whitey had just invented the sweatshop while live in europe wasnt as rosy as today and the wild west in america was still wild.

Its more about our spiritual collapse and the ideals we stand and stood for disintegrating and being taken over by foreign ones.

An indian may have a shitty life but his cultural fabric that makes his society a very distinct world to life in is still alife.

>>1913942
>our culture is being taken over by those damn foreigners
>meanwhile in india its the same thing only its european and american imperialism doing it to our precious culture that I know nothing about.

>>1913963
Oh of course the indians get changed forcefully.
But they have achieved a grade of sovereignity and still hold strong ideals and beliefs in their ways which will lead to them using the change that is brought to them by the west to craft a future to their liking.
An indian saying cool and while using a smarphone is not the end of india, their gods being reduced to marvel tier popculture while young indians scramble to find words to define being indian beyond tourisr stereotypes would be a better indicator but that is not happening even not in their upper classes who already life the life the average indian may only achieve in 60-100 years in the future.

>>1903369
No, you're a total dumbass for thinking those stats matter in any way, shape or form. Wealth gap is literally a sign of increasing gdp and increased migration.

>>1913942
>Nah, Spengler thought in the long term and lived at a time were whitey had just invented the sweatshop while live in europe wasnt as rosy as today and the wild west in america was still wild.

This. Some posters fail to realize the West isn't a monolithic group, nor has life in the West always been exactly as it is now.

>Its more about our spiritual collapse and the ideals we stand and stood for disintegrating and being taken over by foreign ones.

Part of the problem with the modern left is its extremely vapid. Thanks to the internet a large segment of our population is exposed to the fact that alternatives to Karl Marx and Adam Smith exist. The left just can't comprehend it. If the lens you see the world is only through an eternal struggle against White males or based solely on economics your destined to fall behind to more integral systems. Hence the rebirth of authentically right-wing thought among young people.

>>1908317
>Or it's the inverse: that the United States government was designed from the ground up to be stable, very carefully crafted as a system where change occurs incrementally in all but the most extraordinary circumstances, and where the military is totally subordinate to civilian rule and generals tend to be high ranking bureaucrats rather than power players in their own right.

You misread my statement. If they did not expect instability, there would be no reason to do the above. One does not make a contingency if there is no threat.

>>191397
depends on who you ask.
Ask people of my dad's age and they all think that India is becoming too westernized, leading to a rise in boys and girls kissing, holding hands, wearing skinny jeans, using condoms etc.
Plenty of people around my age believe that too.

>>1915979
referring to >>1913972