How did the black plague spread from China to Europe? It takes

I vaguely recall empty plague bearing ships coasting into Byzantine ports.

File: map13_11.jpg (106KB, 600x461px) Image search: [Google]

106KB, 600x461px

>>1885884

Because Mongols.

>>1885884
Rats

>>1885884
The plague wasn't spread by humans, anon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death

>>1885896
that's even harder to believe since the distances were massive

>>1885884

Because the silk road isnt like a modern highway. Some guy didnt load up a camel with spices and silk at Beijing and kept walking west until he got to Europe. It was thousands of villages and outposts between cities, where goods moved bit by bit, being bought at one and sold at another dozens of times.

So some guy turned up at the first village with the plague and gave it to everyone there. The caravan going from the city to the next village carried it there. The caravan going from the next village to next village 2 carried it there, the caravan going from next village 2 carried it to the next village 3, the caravan going from there carried it to the next city and so on.

>>1885903
even then. What are the odds a sick dude makes it to the other corner with an ever deteriorating health plus the next waves are going to know that shit hit the fans because of the trail of dead bodies

File: SilkRoad.jpg (58KB, 711x455px) Image search: [Google]

58KB, 711x455px

>>1885903
Yup, lots of cities and villages between China and Europe.

>>1885911
Don't forget it was also carried by bacteria inside fleas on rats, and those fuckers can spread quickly on merchant vessels with no trouble.

>>1885911
They wouldn't make it to the other corner. Half the reason why the Black Plague was so bad was because it spread to other people very easily. Plus you had things like rats and fleas that could carry the disease.

File: plague.jpg (82KB, 736x480px) Image search: [Google]

82KB, 736x480px

>>1885916
>>1885921
>>1885922
Look at the map

its around 1500km in between the cities. Theres no way they finish that trip

>>1885934
Those are only the major cities. You do know that Central Asia wasn't all steppe, right?

>>1885911

Theres an incubation period where you can spread it to others without feeling the effects, in addition to being reasonably mobile until quite close to death. You could easily contract the plague in one village and have visited and spread it to several others along the route before you notice you are infected.

All the caravans leaving those villages in every dirrection were also infected by you and are carrying it even further also without knowing they are infected.

Keeping in mind also there is no knowledge of germ theory, so they wouldnt have understood that people travelling from one place to another were carrying something with them that they didnt know about.

>>1885916
>>1885934

>this heavily zoomed out map to show a generalised route of the silk road is litterally all that was there
>it was absolutely nothing but perfectly flat, barren wasteland exept those dozen cities

>>1885948
Except the Altai mountains at Kashgar and the Persian plateau.

>>1885922
>>1885934
Diseases are not constant either in their mortality or their virulence. An extremely deadly strain in a lightly populated area will just kill all the local potential victims and then die off. Natural selection tends to favor deadlier strains in densely populated areas where transmission is much easier, but less dangerous strains in less densely populated areas. It's likely that the bubonic plague was much less deadly until it reached urban areas such as Persia and Europe, or in China.

Syphilis is one example, being believed to have intensified in its mortality and the severity of its victims during the Italian Wars due to the high incidences of sex (consensual or not) in the civilian population.
>http://www.evolve360.co.uk/data/10/docs/06/06clough.pdf

File: map.gif (747KB, 1412x997px) Image search: [Google]

747KB, 1412x997px

>>1885961
>>1885948
There are modern cases of plague and by the week you are already covered in pus bumps

The terrain was difficult too

How far could someone travel in the middle ages a day while being horribly sick?

>>1885968

On horseback, as part of a caravan? Probably only slightly less far as while healthy. Not to mention all that week when you are far healthier but still spreading it to every inn, bazaar and passerby you go near.

>>1885975
and if the horse were to get sick?

>>1885977

Horses dont get bubonic plague. Even if they did, they would last a lot longer than their riders.

>>1885968
You know rats and other shit carried the plague too besides humans

>>1885991
>>1885999
well if you look at the map it took 10 years to get from the east to the west

How is that possible

how come no one did anything?

Why did it die in Europe in only 4 years if it took 10+ to reach it

>>1885968
>There are modern cases of plague and by the week you are already covered in pus bumps
Because the world nowadays is heavily globalized and urbanized. But when population density decreases or water quality improves, plagues become less dangerous.

Another example is the 1990s Brazilian Cholera outbreak. As authorities began to fix up water quality, cholera strains became less toxigenic, so that you could spend longer times without exhibiting symptoms while still infecting people.

>>1886005
Because it takes less than 4 years to get to Europe from Asia. Where exactly are you getting any of this information from?

>>1886005
>how come no one did anything?
Because immunology was outside the grasp of the vast majority of societies (iirc only the Chinese regularly immunized, and that was for smallpox), and most of these civilizations were too busy dealing with being fucking eviscerated by the mongols to deal with a few sick merchants.

>Why did it die in Europe in only 4 years
It became too virulent and deadly in response to access to cities, so it killed off or immunized too many of the vectors to further proliferate. Of course, when populations recovered, new strains developed with similar symptoms, which is why there were smaller outbreaks of bubonic plague afterwards.

>>1886015
Look at OP

>>1886019
>Theres been rumors of people dying of a horrific disease to the east what if we do something about it

>>1885884
rats and their fleas

>>1886005
>how come no one did anything?
Poland did something about it

>>1886025
How come Poland could control its entire border while no one else could?

>>1886030
population density and jews

>>1886030
Even rats have standards

>>1886021
>Jawid, how about you shut the fuck up and help me get these horses together for next year's tribute to the khan

>>1886021

Do what exactly? Noone knew what caused it. Speculation ranged from it being mass poisoning, to foul smelling fog, to the malignant influence of the planets, to the litteraly wrath of God. What "something" are they going to do to stop Venus from fucking their shit up?

Those dates are also when the plague itself first appeared in those cities, not the time it took to travel from one end of the silk road to the other.

>>1886042
It took too fucking long for people from countries in the west not do something about it before its too late

>>1886042
Whatever Poland did

>>1886050

"before its too late" being almost as soon as its happening. Communications were as fast as the fastest horse in town. They could hardly get on Skype and tell their buddies in London and Paris to get ready because theres a horrible illness coming their way. They would have had vvague rumours at best, then the same people spreading the news would also be spreading the disease.

>>1886050
Poland didn't really do anything. It just happened to be somewhat isolated from the rest of europe at the time.

>>1886063
You are going to tell me that NONE country of the developed world other htan Poland couldn't stop it?

>>1886071
That woudlnt have stopped refugees

>>1886079

Yes, because the developed worlds technology level consisted of consulting the patients star sign and giving them hot soup if they were too cold and draining off some of their blood if they were too hot, because thats what Galen said to do a thousand years before and he was a pretty cool dude.

They had absolutely no idea how the plague was spread. How could they have stopped it if they didnt know what it was?

>>1886099
>Dude i heard half our bordering country is reckt because of a mysterious disease
>this somehow went on for 10 years and 10k kilometers

>>1886104

And? Where do you go from there?

>We heard theres this disease somewhere off to the East
>?????
>Successfully preventing the Black Death in Europe

>>1886104
>Dude i heard half our bordering country is reckt because of a mysterious disease
By the time half of a bordering country was remotely "reckt," you'd already be suffering from it yourself.
And people tried to do stuff about it. Priests tried to pray for them, and a lot of them died. The Pope sat by a huge fire all day. People started whipping themselves or going into fits of dancing. Some people killed Jews to deal with it. It's not like the world didn't do anything about it, they just didn't know what to do.

>>1886111
>Block all the major roads to the east or at least fill it with guards
>theres literally only one or 2 roads cause of the shit terrain

>>1886114

Which part of "they didnt know what was causing it" are you not comprehending?

They didnt know to block the roads because they didnt know it was infected people/fleas/whateverthelatesttheoryis carrying bacteria. They thought it was Gods wrath for their sins, or an evil fog, or Saturn being in the wrong position.

>>1886114
>theres literally only one or 2 roads cause of the shit terrain
What shit terrain? Half of it is steppes and plains.

>>1886113
>the king had to personally see it with its own eyes
>countries/kingdoms back then didn't have counter measures against outbreaks

reading this thread makes me feel embarrassed to use /his/. I can't believe I try to have serious discussion with people this retarded.

>>1886114

Also,even if they did know, the idea of just sending guards to stop people is laughable. Its medieval Europe. We can barely control borders now, with thousands of miles of barbed wire, cameras, night vision goggles, helicopter patrols and satellite imaging. At best, people will just go a mile down the road to where the guards arent and get in that way. At worst, they'll infect your guards and they'll carry it back directly into your country.

>>1886126

No, they didnt, because they didnt know what an outbreak was.

>>1886133
Then explain fucking Poland

>>1886137
>urban civilizations didn't know what a pandemic was

>>1886140

>A pandemic? Whats that?
>Its when lots of people die of the same thing
>Sounds like the wrath of God/malignant influence of the celestial bodies/miasma/poisoning to me.

>>1886140
They knew what a plague was, but they didn't really have a clear idea of how it happened.

And no, they literally didn't know what pandemic was because the word Pandemic didn't fucking exist until the mid 17th century.

>>1886138

An anomaly. Even then Poland still suffered from the plague, just less so than the rest of Europe.

>>1886150
if that was the case there would have been dozen of black plague like events every year

>>1886153
They fucking knew what happened when a disease was out of control in some part of the kingdom. This is literally no different in any way other than it has stupidly high mortality rates

You are going to tell me that for over 10+ years across dozen of kingdoms and civilizations

No one fucking did anything

>B-but thats how it is

Then explain Poland

>>1886161
>its magic i aint gotta explain shit

>>1886163

>dozens of black plague like events every year

There were

>They fucking knew what happened when a disease was out of control in some part of the kingdom

Yeah, a lot of people died of the same thing at once.

Noone knows why Poland got off lightly. Its not like a Taiwanese Glass Blowing forum is going to stumble across the solution.

>>1886178
>There were
Link them

>

Yeah, a lot of people died of the same thing at once.

>Noone knows why Poland got off lightly. Its not like a Taiwanese Glass Blowing forum is going to stumble across the solution.

Why did you cut

>They fucking knew what happened when a disease was out of control in some part of the kingdom. This is literally no different in any way other than it has stupidly high mortality rates

>You are going to tell me that for over 10+ years across dozen of kingdoms and civilizations

>No one fucking did anything

>Noone knows why Poland got off lightly. Its not like a Taiwanese Glass Blowing forum is going to stumble across the solution.
it doesn't matter if people don't know. It pretty much discards it was a natural occurrence

>>1886163
>You are going to tell me that for over 10+ years across dozen of kingdoms and civilizations
>No one fucking did anything
They fucking did, read >>1886113
It just wasn't the right things.

>Then explain Poland
It was a relatively remote part of Europe that still suffered significantly from the bubonic plague.The recent outbreak of Ebola killed nearly 5000 people in Liberia, the worst hit nation. That accounted for .1% of the population. 15% of Poland's population is believed to have died. It was still fucking terrible, but less so because Poland was less urbanized than western Europe, and thus there were probably less deadly strains of the disease.

>b-but you'd know something happened
Yes you fucking ignoramus they knew, but the scientific method hadn't even been fucking invented yet, and you expect them to know modern epidemiology? But go on, keep on assuming that the medieval world had 21st century communications and a modern understanding of medicine and epidemiology and waiting for a response nobody is going to give you.

>>1886198
I am sorry, but you really, really need to go read a book about the Black Plague. The fact that you are so ignorant about the subject just makes you look really bad.

>>1886201
That doesn't explain anything

Literally the rest of the known world including fucking Lithuania and those countries suffered from it

>Remote
even better yet for all refugees fleeing from the crowded plague ridden cities. EVERYTHING FROM ALL DIRECTIONS of Poland got hit by it

>>1886207
>I don't have arguments im going to attack you

I made the thread to ask. You cannot back up your own arguments which dont survive the simplest question, why do you go do that?

>scientific method
they had already dealt with other diseases outbreak they knew in very basic lines what they had to do and you keep fucking cutting


>They fucking knew what happened when a disease was out of control in some part of the kingdom. This is literally no different in any way other than it has stupidly high mortality rates

>You are going to tell me that for over 10+ years across dozen of kingdoms and civilizations

>No one fucking did anything

>>1886198

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_plague_pandemic#Recurrence_throughout_Europe

How does it discard it? NOONE KNOWS. Them having a fuckton of cats to eat the rats is just as likely a solution as no fucker wanted to go there, because noone knows the answer.

I'm starting to think this may be some kind of shithead nationalists "wooo poland greatest poland stopped plague while other eurofags died woo poland best poland best poland best" trolling attempt.

>>1886227
>the king has to fucking hear theres a plague for whoever is assigned to the borders moves the his butt of his chair and does something about it

and you keep cutting more stuff you don't want to reply to

>>1886218

>there being nothing there is good for refugees


THERE IS NOTHING THERE FOR THE REFUGEES TO GO TO. There's no UN to hand out food parcels. No refugee camps for them to sit in until it all blows over. Fleeing to a remote area means starving to death in the woods. The only people who could flee were the nobles and wealthy merchants who went to their own country estates that were already supplied.

>>1886235

Protip: Theres more than one person replying to you.

>>1886235

What the fuck does borders have to do with anything? Are you actually illiterate? For the 3990th time THEY DID NOT KNOW TO CLOSE THE BORDERS BECAUSE THEY DID NOT KNOW HOW THE BLACK DEATH SPREAD.

>>1886218
>Literally the rest of the known world including fucking Lithuania and those countries suffered from it
You know what, fuck it. Go ask /sci/ what evolutionary epidemiology is and how it applies to the mortality of the bubonic plague. I've explained it twice already, once with a direct source to a paper explaining exactly how a disease can become less deadly in a less urbanized area like Poland.
>even better yet for all refugees fleeing from the crowded plague ridden cities.
Bring up some figures on how many refugees were created by the Bubonic plague. I'll wait.
>they had already dealt with other diseases outbreak
Generally by killing Jews and a lot of prayer and waiting for the plague to die out.

>They fucking knew what happened when a disease was out of control in some part of the kingdom. This is literally no different in any way other than it has stupidly high mortality rates
They knew it was a plague. They didn't know how it spread, what rationale it spread with or what most of the vectors were.
>You are going to tell me that for over 10+ years across dozen of kingdoms and civilizations
They dealt with it at different time frames.
>No one fucking did anything
See
>>1886113
>>1886113
>>1886113
>>1886113
>>1886113
And here's a source.
>http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/broughttolife/themes/publichealth/blackdeath

>the king has to fucking hear theres a plague for whoever is assigned to the borders moves the his butt of his chair and does something about it
See the above source.
>When the Black Death spread through Italy in late 1347, some ports began turning away ships suspected of coming from infected areas.
> But these measures were too little, too late. Plague took hold and Venetians died in their tens of thousands.
>Other Italian cities tried similar measures. >Restrictions on imports and exports, travel, market trading and funerals were all brought in, but again to no effect.
Because it didn't work.

>>1886243
>plague attacks the whole known world
>it takes 10 fucking years to get to Europe
>Only place not attacked for the entire plague which took a total of 18 years
>a pandemic that somehow lasted 18 years
>Didn't touch Poland which was surrounded by countries that did affect it
>if you were a dude back then you wouldn't have kept moving in hopes of not getting it

>>1886247
Sure thing

>>1886254
>Didn't touch Poland which was surrounded by countries that did affect it
For the last fucking time, it touched Poland.

"Poland lost about a quarter of its population to the plague (...)" - Gottfried, Robert S. Black Death. New York: The Free Press, 1983.

>>1886252
Thats a whole lot of none arguments you have there

They could have cut off the access to their country or at least attempted it

Yeah that was for italy. What about the rest of the civilized world

>>1886254

>>1886259
You are just googling. You know jack shit about the plague

Why do you even reply.

>>1886261
>Thats a whole lot of none arguments you have there
I answered all the fucking points you complained about cutting off. If there is something factually wrong with them, feel free to cite sources.
>They could have cut off the access to their country or at least attempted it
They could have but it clearly didn't fucking work.

>>1886272
>You are just googling. You know jack shit about the plague
I am looking for a source to stick up your uneducated ass so you can stop asking the same stupid questions and then getting frustrated at the same answers.
>Why do you even reply.
Frankly, I don't know. You clearly aren't looking for answers.

>>1886254

Yep, you are dense.The plague didnt last 18 years. That map isnt of constant plague happening continually in a big cloud over Europe.It is when the plague hits that particular town. When it reaches London, its already burned out in the first few places where it entered Europe.

If you were a dude back then, you litterally couldnt move at all for the overwhelming population. You were either more or less owned by your lord and could only leave with his explicit permission or your entire livelihood was tied to your land or your business premises.

>sure thing

It's almost as though theres two very distinct writing and debating styles arguing with you, or something...

>>1886261

For the 289347287428472th time, WHY WOULD THEY CUT OFF ACCESS TO THEIR COUNTRY WHEN THEY DID NOT KNOW THEY NEEDED TO CUT OFF ACCESS TO THEIR COUNTRY?

>>1886277
No you didn't

Before you said they didnt know

now you say they tried and failed

>>1886281
You know jack shit about this you are googling

I mean i knew from the beginning you knew jack shit but went along with it.

>B-but im having fun
Kill yourself

>>1886286
>It hits china over 10+ years before it got to Europe
And lasted 4-5 in europe
>Didnt last 18 years

>>1886294
>Before you said they didnt know
Yes, they didn't know how the plague spread. They tried different responses because they didn't know, including quarantine, which failed.

>You know jack shit about this you are googling
I already explained to you the evolutionary epidemiological explanation to why it avoided Poland, you just fucking ignored it.

>I mean i knew from the beginning you knew jack shit but went along with it.
>I-I was just pretending to be retarded
Sure buddy.

>>1886294

Fucking fuck me...

Yes, one of the plague outbreaks known as the Black Death lasts about 18 years overall. But that doesnt mean that there was plague everywhere, for the entire 18 years. It was a rolling outbreak that spread forward while dying down at the back. Nanchang was not infected with plague at the same time as London.

>>1886303
>literally 1/3-2/3 of the population of the entire known world fucking died
>It wasn't everywhere


you didnt explain shit you only threw buzzwords

Thats literally what you did albeit you are not pretending, you are

>>1886303
And in 18 years

fucking 18 years

In 10 years it took to get to Eruope across places with little population density

3650 days back then where they could only travel so much per day and only during daytime

No one did anything to stop it

thats impossible unless someone spread it on purpose

File: [incoherent rage].gif (3MB, 480x270px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 480x270px

>>1886303
He's all yours, anon, I give up.

>>1886322
>thats impossible unless someone spread it on purpose

brace for DA JOOZ

>>1886322

>it wasnt everywhere

It most certain was everywhere, I said nothing to the contrary. However, it was not everywhere at the same time. It being a ripple spreading Westwards and getting weaker and ultimately fading out as time goes on.
>noone did anything to stop it

As has been repeatedly pointed out, they did try to stop it, but they didnt know what IT was, so all their attempts were useless

>thats impossible unless someone spread it on purpose

And here we go, what it was all building up to.

Fine. Whatever.

Yes, you are quite correct. It was the perfidious Jews once again.They spread the plague in order to advance their evil ends of getting thousands of their people set on fire. Because.... reasons.

>>1886329

Fuck you dude, its 3:30am here, YOU educate him!

>>1886338
>However, it was not everywhere at the same time. It being a ripple spreading Westwards and getting weaker and ultimately fading out as time goes on.
Thats my point

How the fuck could it rekt the entire civilized world in over 18 years

Its impossible

>And here we go, what it was all building up to.
Fucking explain how its possible to develop naturally

>>1886341
Can you stop samefagging?

>>1886322
Are you honestly meaning to say you think someone spread the black plague on purpose? How? Even if someone was trying to eradicate populations, nobody knew how the plague spread so they wouldn't know how to spread it! It might as well have been the gods if you are going to go down that path!

>>1886357
Dohoho

Are you giving up?

>I was pretending
>It was a joke all along
>i was having fun

Why did you even start this shit i really wanted legitimate naswer
>i was beng legitimate
fuck you

>>1886350

Because thats how diseases spread anon. It's basic biology. Some fucker A from shithole A fucks a muskrat or some shit, then goes to visit the brothel in shithole B and coughs on fucker B. Fucker B goes to visit his uncle Fucker C in shithole C and doesnt wash his hands after pissing all over the toilet seat. Fucker C needs to go on a business trip to big shithole D where he coughs, pukes and sodomises fuckers defghijk and so on, who all go off and do their thing in their respective shitholes, and it goes from there.

Next weeks science lesson will be on how babby is formed.

>he thinks he's important enough for some guy to fake multiple personalities, writing stypes and debating styles, just ofr him

>>1886365
That doesnt explain anything

>why
>18 years
>10k kilometers
>100% mortality rate
>7 weeks symptons
>etc

>>1886357

Its THE JEWS remember. They obviously used Jewish Biology to have a few hundred year head start on the rest of the globe and knew all about germ theory while every other fucker was still sucking Galens cock, and used the knowledge to spread a disease that not only would hit their own communities just as hard, if not harder, but also cause an obvious and inevitable backlash against them.

Because reasons.

>>1886376

>not 18 years all at once
>not 10k kilometers all at once
>not 100% mortality
>incubation period varies from patient to patient

>>1886383
>All of this supports my claims
>incubation varies
>Symptons start within the week
>It become visible at the week
>they have to travel all sick across thosuands of kilometers of desert and mountains

>>1886388

You have to be trolling at this point. Read what I am saying.

It is not one guy completing the entire thousand mile trip, personally. I posted how the silk road works as like the 5th reply to this thread. It is spreading from person to person, with the original person dying and the second person passing it on to someone else before also dying.

grgregrtg

>>1886396
>I posted some shit that doesn't explain nothing
>it would be impossible for this to happen

>>1886361
I just got here, jackass. Do you really not realize there are 3 or 4 different people explaining shit to you and you just aren't listening?

>I really want a legitimate answer
We've given them to you! You just either aren't listening or don't want to!

>>1886409
>same writing
>different dudes

File: hqdefault.jpg (13KB, 480x360px) Image search: [Google]

13KB, 480x360px

>>1886403

>how the trade route that the disease spread along works
>how diseases spread
>"doesnt explain nothing"

Impossible for what to happen? For people to keep infecting each other, without knowing that they are infecting each other, across known commercial routes? Gedoutahere.

>>1886416
>>1886388
>>1886322

>>1886413

If only there were some kind of counter in the corners of the screen that would tally how many posters there are in each thread...

>same writing
>overly sweary, greentexting and passive agressive guy (me)
>provider of detailed medical terminology and sources
>at least one other fucker
>same writing

>>1886424
What are proxies and phones

>>1886420

Yes, those are two replies in which you keep missing the point, that germ theory was not known, they did not know the causes and so the things they did do, burning Jews, killing cats, whipping each other half to death and praying a fuck ton, didnt work.

>>1886428

You honestly think some guy is going to sit, using multiple proxies and multiple devices, to fake multiple debating styles, just for YOU?

Fucking hell of an ego you have there.

>>1886432
O yes they dont know that if you get close to a person that has a diseas or live in a place where there are tons of people with it you will caught it

>>1886441
well you are doing it

File: imgonnakillmyself.jpg (100KB, 1280x720px) Image search: [Google]

100KB, 1280x720px

>>1886428
Because we are really going to go through all of the trouble to set up proxies just to debate what is either a troll or the most narrow fool I have ever met on these boards. I wish I thought so highly of myself

>>1886446
>>1886446
Yes, they DIDN'T know that! That is what probably 4 people now have been saying, is that they didn't know how the disease spread!

>>1886452
You meant you are going through the trouble and yes thats what you are doing for some reason

>O you must be paranoic
>therefore everything you say is invalid
try again

>>1886456
>starts arguing against samefagging
>uses ad populum fallacy

>medicine wasn't invented yet
>modern science wasn't invented yet
>people were literally iliterate peasants
>nobody knew how it was transmitted
>they though it was God.

They couldn't do shit to stop it because they have no clue what to do.

>how it was transported
comercial routes.

>but they guy died
rats and fleas transported the dissease.

>but the guy died
but the vectors of transmission were rats and fleas.

>>1886446

Correct, they didnt. I'm going to be helpful rather than just spit venom. Go to your local book shop and buy Medicine and Society in Later Medieval England by Carole Rawcliffe. Read it and educate yourself on how the medieval mind worked.

If you got sick, it was because you had smelled an evil cloud, or had a spell cast on you, or the planets were in the wrong position, or God was punishing you for something you or people connected to you had done.

They litterally had no idea that standing next to a person with a disease, would also give you the disease, except if standing next to them also resulted in one of the above.

>>1886469
o yes they would think that and run in circle in panic instead of trying not to get infected

>>1885968
Plague has in incubation period of 2-6 days. That's potentially a week for someone to initially be infected to start showing signs, and in a week you can travel plenty of distance even on foot. Also you're forgetting the simple fact that not everyone who transported the disease would be infected. Most of the infections would come from handling the trade goods infested with the fleas/rats that carried it, not the person doing the trading. Since a lot of these goods were being traded for the sole purpose of making it to the ME/Europe, a lot of it rarely if ever made human contact until the end of its journey, which meant that plenty of middle-men never contracted it and would keep trading ever increasing the amount of plague transported west.

>>1886471

No, they would fetch a priest and start praying. If they had more money they would fetch a doctor who would look at the patients zodiac, rub condoments on them and open a vein or two. While burning the local pets, Jews, Gypsies and whoever you dont particullary like.

They didnt know what "infection" was.

>>1886469
pretty much this.

read the bible, they though disseases are god's punishing for sins.

literally how modern christians don't allow their kids to be taken to hospital and instead take them to church to pray until they die.

>>1886482

*condiments

Condoments are something else entirely...

>>1886481
>>1886420


>>1886482
So all people in the civilized part of the world from all cultures did this?

Instead of fleeing to where they thought they wouldn't get infected?

>>1886471
Yes! They literally had no clue what to do! They had no hope, no means of knowing if they were next, nor any way that they knew of to escape the cataclysm. In the common man's mind, it must have seemed like the end of days.
Even IF they by some miracle knew that fleas were responsible for spreading the disease, which we have repeatedly determined was not the case, how in the hell would they escape fleas? It's not like they had the option to pack their shit up and go, because they were bound to serfdom. Even if they COULD flee, and by some miracle had somewhere that would take them in, they STILL would not be able to escape the fleas! I honestly don't understand what part of the fact that FLEAS were responsible for spreading the disease and that they didn't know this, let alone know how to prevent it, that you don't understand!

>>1886503
>They didn't know about germs therefore they didn't try to escape the places where everyone dying

and

>>1886420

I dont even know why you keep trying

>>1886499
dude, there are modern christians who think vacciness will give you autism.

there are religious people who literally had their children died before taking them hospital because they though their priest will cure him.

imagine that when there was no modern medicine or science.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/04/24/christian-couple-kills-their-second-child-with-prayer/

>>1886499
Yes. That's what people did at the time, because they didn't know better

>>1886499

Yes. That is, admittedly an oversimplified view of, how medieval European medicine worked.

Why would they flee. The average person cant flee. They didnt even know there was anything TOO flee. How do you run away from Gods wrath?

>>1886499
>Instead of fleeing to where they thought they wouldn't get infected?
Where would that be? Poland? Somewhere hundreds of miles away, in an era where peasants rarely ventured more than 25 miles away from their homes? They'd be leaving behind their land, their jobs, and possibly their language following mere rumors to a place that they aren't completely sure exists, which is all that the common man would hear of safe locations. In a society so heavily based either on profession (if you were the gentry and middle class) or on land (if you were a farmer or a noble), leaving it all to go to somewhere that might be safe is a big step to take.

>>1886505
Okay. Let's say your lord was generous and let you pack up your shit to flee the plague, and that some town was kind enough to take you in. What does that solve? Rats go wherever people are, and with rats come fleas. With the fleas come the plague. Now the town that was NOT infected has BECOME infected. What now?

>>1886520
Well now is the point where they probably lynch you and everybody who came with you for bringing God's wrath on them.

>>1886508
The entire known world did that? even the heretics, pagans non believers and all that?

Proof?


>>1886513
How would I know. The best bets would be isolated rural towns

Didn't jews move into Poland?

>>1886523
Doesn't matter. The plague still spreads. The fleas are still there!

>>1886505

I dont even know why you keep trying to apply an entirely modern world view to the 14th century.

They dont know why people are dying. Not everyone is dying. If people are dying then they must be being punished for something and we can only pray and hope God withdraws the flail of His anger and if we die anyway, that is Gods will.

>>1886525
>How would I know.
Well, see, the average peasant didn't either. So they stayed where they were.
>The best bets would be isolated rural towns
If any town was well known enough and close enough to be known to be safe, more than a few asymptomatic peasants will also be heading there to make it no longer safe.

>Didn't jews move into Poland?
Yes, but this was during the 11th-13th century, well before the black death hit Europe. It had nothing to do with the black plague.

>>1886525
there was no concept of science retard.

imagine everyone being iliterate peasants who believe in magic and God.

File: idnotwannasettheworldonfire.jpg (270KB, 1280x960px) Image search: [Google]

270KB, 1280x960px

>>1886535
This. I don't know what it is about this that is so hard to understand!

>>1886525

>heretics, pagans, non-believers

A statistically irrelevant minority at the time of the Black Death. Even then, they would have had the same medical system as the rest of Europe and if they did anything different, noone bothered to write about it.

>>1886525
>>1886547

>The best bets would be isolated rural towns

Why would that be the best bet, when you have no idea what is causing the thing you are running from? If it is the malignant influence of the celestial bodies, then it will be affecting there just as much as here.

How do I screencap this thread? This is ridiculous

>>1886535
I dont know why you htink everyone was a religious nutjob who wouldnt try to flee the place of a catastrophe

>mongols invade
>lets stay here they are dark raiders sent by god
>We deserve to be flayed alive

>>1886543
>There was no concept of an outbreak or plague
>Rome had entire systems to deal with it
>It also got non christian countries where they wouldnt have reacted like you make up christians acted

>>1886543
>there was no concept of science in medieval times
>when socrates had invented the basis for the scientific method hundreds of years before christ

I don't know what are you even trying to do at this point

>>1886547
>Super contagious muh fleas
>These thousands of people don't matter
>What happened in all the rest of the non christian kingdoms doesnt matter

>>1886570
>muh roman empire
did you knew that most ancient knowledge was lost in medieval times and only few scholars in some monk temple had access to translations of greek texts?

only 2% of the people back then knew how to read.

what part of not having a clue what make the dissease appear you don't understand.

they didn't knew what caused the dissease?

>but why they didn't run away
the rich people flee to their country houses, while the city peasant dies.

>but why they didn't do anything
they though it was god punishing and it was the apocalypsis.

fucking retard, watch a documentary on youtube.

>>1886570

>why you think everyone was a religious nutjob

Because by modern standards, they absolutely were. That is litterally how the majority of medieval Europeans responded to the Black Death.

>what happened in the rest of the non-christian kingdoms doesnt matter

We're talking about medieval Europe anon. Firstly, they're not exactly on speaking terms with non-Christians in the 14th century. Secondly they cant just ping them off a Facebook message and find out how they're doing.

>medieval people didnt act like Romans

No shit Sherlock.

>>1886570
You give medieval Europe far too much credit. The Roman empire was gone. Europe was martial shithole of competing kingdoms and warlords where the average person died before they were 30. Anything that didn't belong to the king belonged to the church, whose influence was across the continent, and anything that didn't fit the church's ideology (such as whatever degree of science the Greeks and Romans may have had) was heresy that was to be eradicated. Cities were overcrowded and full of filth, literacy was at an all time low, there was barely enough food, those in positions of power were Clinton levels of corrupt, and all the average person has to work off of in determining what is going on in the world is word of mouth rumors. It was probably the closest thing to a post-apocalyptic shithole you will find in the history books, because that is more or less what it was! It was the shattered remnants of the Roman empire trying to pick themselves back up!

>>1886581
>>1886583
>>1886595
>Muh dark age
>everyone suddenly became retarded
>people wouldn't have escaped their cities if they saw everyone was dying

>this
>>1886420

I dont even know why you keep going at it

Im the one dictating everything you say without realizing it

you fucking suck

and i really did want to know peoples opinion on Op but no you had to come shit up the thread

>>1886620
They DID become retarded. The church dictated everything they thought. The church decided anything not in the Bible was heresy. It's like how Boko Haram thinks the earth is fucking flat

>>1886620
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/04/24/christian-couple-kills-their-second-child-with-prayer/

read this and imagine all the population back then being like this.

>>1886630
>everyone was a christian religious thrall
>even non christian countries
Um?

>>1886634
Anecdotal evidence

>>1886637
>science wasn't invented yet
>huh duh everyone is religious
today 80% of people are still religious as fuck retard.

today people still believe in magic and that God prayer can heal you.

literally spend time about protestant people.
hell, you got muslims blowing up themselves today in name of a fairy jew stone age god.

only 250 million people in the world are not religious.
250 million of 7 billions.

>>1886649
>Because something to day
>something in the past
>There wouldn't be religious nutjobs thinking they must wipe humanity out cause thats gods will or some shit
>and so on

>>1886620

Yes, to both basically. You are aware that a good number of ancient roman texts survive only because modern conservators found them while x-raying medieval documents that had reused the parchements, right? They had litterallly no idea half the stuff the Romans came up with even existed.

And no, they didnt escape, because they couldnt escape, there was no where to escape to and they didnt know they needed to escape in the first place.

>and i really did want to know peoples opinion on OP
>implying you didnt want this to turn into yet another stormfaggot jew hate thread and are annoyed we're actually talking about history instead of your pet conspiracy theory

This has been explained to you.

>It takes months to years to get from one corner to the other

No one person went from one corner to the other, let along from one corner to the other while infected with the black death. It spread little by little in thousands of small steps, infecting one community after the other. Incubation periond and mortality for any one person in the millions strong chain are irrelevant so long as they infect another person before dying.

>>1886661
lets see

>>1886420

>Implying im not asking legitimate questions

I decided to make the thread when i saw the difference of years it took between china and Europe

>>1886671
the dissease wasn't transmitted by the merchants retard, but by rats and fleas in the goods they carried and in their ships.

>>1886671

And your legitimate questions have been answered, multiple times. Looking at your own map, why does Buda, Cologne and Lubeck become infected after London? Why doesnt Beijing become infected after the entirey of Europe and the middle east? Because it was random carriers, arriving without knowing they were infected, from previous waves of infection.

Seriously, how do I screencap this?

>>1886688
with the screencap button retard.
google it.

or use GIMP.

>>1886685

*why DOE Beijing become infected after Europe

derp

>>1886683
That fucking die from it around the same time a human would

>>1886685
No they weren't

>my answer is this baseless shit that i cannot even myself defend

>>1886709

>how diseases spread and how the medieval mind worked, is baseless shit
>I wont be happy until we all have a big circle jerk about how it was the perfideous Jew


Whatever.

>>1886709
rats don't die from the dissease idiot.

>>1886709
Fleas are unaffected by the Bubonic Plague.

Holy fuck op is stupid

>>1886715
>everyone was a religious thrall
>everyone including non christina did what you think christians had done
>People didn't know how to deal with the deases
>People knew but they failed
>People prayed but before tried to stop it
>Disease is super contagious
>heretics dont matter cause they were too little

>>1886716
Yes they do. The fleas dont but the flea lifespan is stupidly short

>>1886725
>The fleas dont but the flea lifespan is stupidly short
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_rat_flea
>A single female flea can mate once and lay eggs every day with up to 50 eggs per day.
>Experimentally, it has been shown that the fleas flourish in dry climatic conditions with temperatures of 20–25 °C (68–77 °F).[2] They can live up to a year and can stay in the cocoon stage for up to a year if the conditions are not favourable.
Yeah no.

>>1886735
>flea lisepan is short
>they can reproduce fast
>this somehow disapproves what i said
>rats can't die to the plague
>they actually do die to it

I dont even know hwy you keep trying

>>1886725

Do you have even the faintest understanding of how life in medieval Europe worked?

Yes, the overwhelming majority of people were Christians and would be considered fanatics by modern standards, the non-Christians in Europe were an extremely small minority and even then followed the same medical system, in their world view they did know how to deal with diseases but we now know that it was bollocks, praying is a huge part of every element of medieval medicine even that practiced by actual physcians, the black death IS super contagious and heretics dont matter when talking about Europe because as before they're a tiny minority and their differences from the norm are religious and not medical.

>>1886747

>he doesnt know how greentexting works

>>1886756
>Do you know how life was back then
>If we look at shit today
>and apply modern stanrds to everything
>We can infer what they've done 700 years ago

>>1886760
>Doesn't understand what a quote is

>>1886747
>>1886774
>he thinks the dissease was transmitted by humans and not the fleas

>>1886774

>strawmanning this hard

When have I ever said to look at shit today and apply modern standards? YOU are the one ranting about how they should have sent guards to close the borders and how the townsfolk should have upped and fled to Poland because.

>>1886774
>Do you know how life was back then
>If we look at shit today
>and apply modern stanrds to everything
Oh the irony.

To recap, these are the things you've been trying to argue:
-That medieval kingdoms had a cohesive understanding of nation-states and national borders, as well as the ability to police them in a meaningful way
-That medieval kingdoms understood how diseases spread and how to limit them
-That medieval governments would immediately infer that contaiment and quarantine were the only rational and useful options
-That peasants would have the knowledge and willingness to travel hundreds of miles to escape the plague as refugees
And now you accuse everyone else on this thread of trying to superimpose modern mindsets and standards on medieval society?

>>1886781
>fleas had to be carried by humans or other living forms

so that leads to this

>>1886420

>>1886782
>Thats a strawman cause i say so
You are the one who said they would just sit there and die because EVERYONE on earth beloved in the christian god so much and all interpreted the plague as a sign from god in the exact same way

>>1886797
See
>>1886420
>>1886322

all your claims come down to

>They were too stupid to run away with the dude with all the pus ubmps and black skin
>or from places were literally everyone around them was dying
>because if we look through modern standards the past

>>1886811
Whereas your claims come down too
>They were too smart to stay in the villages where they had lived their whole lives and knew exactly how plagues spread
>and they knew exactly what parts of the world were safe
>because if we look through modern standards the past

>>1886811
yes, the vast majority back then was fucking retarded and instead of emigrating they lapidated themselves and prayed god didn't punish him for masturbation.

they didn't even knew diseases were transmitable.

Imagine people who didn't knew that standing next to a sick person will make you sick also.

idiot.

>>1886811

When have I ever said that EVERYONE ON EARTH believed in the Christian God? We're talking about Europe, in the middle ages. Everyone DID believe in the Christian God, or were very, VERY quiet about not doing so. Read any transcription of a medieval medical recipe or technique. It's full of prayers and saying it's up to God if the patient survives. Fucking hell, John Bradmore names the ointment HE invents "Gods Grace" because as far as he is concerned one way or another it's all come from God.

Read a basic book on medieval European society and medieval European medicine. Watch a fucking youtube video on them at least.

>>1886820
>running away from a place where everyone is dying from something horrific could not coss anyones mind

You literally have no arguments

>>1886823
>they didn't even knew diseases were transmitable.
Proof? They did burn plagued bodies.

>Imagine people who didn't knew that standing next to a sick person will make you sick also.
>There were literal plaguedoctors wearing something that looks like a gas mask with leather gloves and everything
>They didn't know
>back then they didn't quarentine diseased regions


>>1886827
Literally everywhere from Europe to china got affected and they all reacted in the exact same way?
?

>>1886376

>18 years
>10k kilometers
>100% mortality rate
>7 weeks symptons
>etc

>>1886388
>All of this supports my claims
>incubation varies
>Symptons start within the week
>It become visible at the week
>they have to travel all sick across thosuands of kilometers of desert and mountains

>>1885916
How would they manage to pass 1500km distances within the 1 week incubation period?

Did they meet other traders and pass it on to each of them?

Did the plague settle in areas where there was water, and each mechant got it and passed it on to the next watering point before dying?

>>1886831

>a guy who thinks that a 17th century plague doctor is wearing a gas mask, telling people they're applying modern views to the 14th century

Top. Fucking. Kek.

>>1886845
>They didn't take any preventing messures
>they actually did
Um what?

>>1886840
>In 18 years no one could stop it somehow
>except Poland which is surrounded by kingdoms with big cities

>>1886831

For the 2384923th time, we're not talking about "litterally everywhere from Europe to china". We're talking about Europe.

I really couldnt give a shit if some chingchong had a full 21st century laboratory in his basement and was brewing up antibiotics and handing them out left and right. We're talking about Europe.

>>1886831
they were peasants in 99% of the cases.

we already told you that the rich and lords survived by moving to their country homes.

>they did burn plagued bodies
and yes retard, they had one week before with no symptons carrying the dissease in the city.
remember that fleas were the transmission vector, not the sick people.

Imagine they took the sick people and burn them, the fleas keep infecting people.

>>1886850
>Im not talking about things that are inconvenient to me
>When the original question is how the fuck did it get to Europe
Is this board so boring you keep going at it?

>>1886104
Yes but imagine that "half your country is rekt" wouldn't you want to leave to the neighbouring kingdom where there is no disease?
That how it spread
Those that could flee had horses so they could travel the distance before they died

>>1886848

The plague doctor mask. It's from the 17th century. It's not medieval.

>>1886848
>Um what?
>>1886113
>>1886113
>>1886113

>except Poland which is surrounded by kingdoms with big cities
Name them.

>>1886840
>did they meet other trades and pass to each other
yes idiot, they passed each other the goods that carried the fleas that made them sick.

fucking retard.

>>1886852
>peasants can't get a horse some cattle and march away

>>1886858
o right. They still burned the diseased bodies,

>>1886860
Literally whatever was in Ukrain Russia
Everoyne migrating from whatever was in France and Germany

>>1886861
>Everyone had fleas
>They couldn't send horsemen between kingdoms to warn each other about the disease
>in over 10 years

>>1886855

>how the fuck did it get to Europe

Fine. The Jews. There was vast network of Jewish conspirators, who wandered around Europe purposefully infecting people with the plague, despite not being infected themselves and even being able to infect countries where there no Jews and Jews were not allowed to enter. Then they travelled to the opposite side of the globe and started to infect people there too, for no reason.

That is obviously a much more plausable theory than a bunch of people got sick and managed to get to another town and infecting people there before dying.

>>1886873
Who are you quoting?

>>1886869
yeah retard, they knew about the dissease coming from the east.

and what they though?
It was god punishment to those faggots for not being good christians and mastubation.

What are you going to do?
Stop merchants?

What if for some magical shit your population still need trade and spices?

What are u going to do?
Stop trading those goods and spice you need but ALSO YOU HAVE NO CLUE THEY CONTAIN THE DISSEASE?

>>1886869

>they burned the diseased bodies

And pray, tell me why you think they did so?

BBBZZZZZZ WRONG

They burned the bodies because they thought it was the bad smell causing the illness. Source: Every single first hand description of the plague.

>they couldnt send horsemen between kingdoms to warn each other

See point 1. They didnt know it was fleas. They didnt know what to warn each other about.

Assuming they had the inclination to warn their rivals. There being a minor conflict called the Hundred Years War going on as the black death strikes.

>>1886877

You do know what the >> does right? You can hover over the red numbers and see?

>>1886878
>No proof
>Not everyone belived in the christian god
>not everyone were religious
>someone might think its god wanting to end people
>Someone might worship a dead cult
>etc

>Kingdoms weren't self suficient
>Literally all they needed was food

>Lets not block our borders when on the other side everyone is melting into a amoebas of pus


>>1886879
O so they did something about something they thought caused diseases

>So who carries the disease people with >rotting bodies.
> from where those came from
>from the east
>So we.. close the border
>You aslo admited they did implement sanitation messures some posts ago

>>1886881
You know what i meant

>I have no argument im going to attack your character to discredit you
now you are going to call me a poltard and dismiss everything i've said

I don't even know why you keep posting garbage that serves no purpose

>>1886889

Yes, I and others, have repeatedly pointed out, they had numerous ideas about what caused it, from miasma,to sin, to the planets, to poison. The point being, they were all wrong, and the remedies they tried had nothing to do with the actual cause and your ideas about running away or closing the border, dont match in with any of the ideas of the time.

>he thinks pointing out that the famous plague doctor mask isnt medieval and is an early modern thing, is "admitting they did implement sanitation measures" in the 14th century

>>1886889
1) they though it was god punishing them for not being christian.
2) everyone was back them religious, heretics were burn by the church, any person who didn't believe in god was burn alive.
3) They hated the enemy kingdom, so they were happy god punished those faggots.
4) They still need spices and other goods from china.

>all they need was food
except that food is were rats hide and rats contained the fleas that carried the dissease.

>block our borders
again, they didn't knew.
they still tried to do it but they failed.

>let's block trade and food trade

>close the border
nigga, 2016 europeans can't even stop refuggee inmigration from middle east and niggers from africa.

CANT EVEN STOP MUSLIMS AND NIGGERS FROM INVANDING THEM TODAY
EXPECT MIDDLE AGES PEOPLE TO DO SHIT

>>1886900
>disease is 10+ year old
>no one figured it out
>no one attempted to warn
>thousand of kilometers
>etc
>etc
>now you say they did try but failed
>quotes something that i left there to point out that A you don't know anything B you keep tryng to avoid replying

>>1886904
>Source
>Heretics would let themselves known
>Then why did they let them in
>Those were luxury, theres no way your average serf could afford that shit
>They could however loot whatever they could and gotten the fuck out

>Literally all wilderness except for some roads
>In some places the terrain was so inhospitable there were only a few access points
>Like in greece the place were spartans fought

>>1886869
>Literally whatever was in Ukrain Russia
Most of it had been ransacked by the Mongols a century prior, and were only just recovering. Hardly major metropolises such as Florence, Paris or London.
>Everoyne migrating from whatever was in France and Germany
Please cite a single instance of French refugees fleeing the black plague arriving in Poland.

>>1886910

Fucks sake, yes, noone figured it out, because you know what you need to see bacterium? A fucking microscope! You know what medieval Europe didnt have!? MICROSCOPES! They had no way of even begining to know what the actual cause was, so of course all their theories are going to try and fail to cure it.

Also

>heretics would let themselves be known

Um, yeah. They kinda did. Do you actually know what a heretic is? A real heretic, not the Warhammer 40,000 kind?

>he thinks Thermopylae is the only way into Europe from the East
>he is so clueless about the actual history of the plague he doesnt know that it entered Europe by ship

>>1886925

> no one else had the brilliant idea of fucking off to remote places
>disease is so terrible a few merchants infected entire kingdoms and empires
>Poland was spared somehow
>literally all land surrounded Poland got fucked yet Poland didn't

>>1886939
> no one else had the brilliant idea of fucking off to remote places
Still waiting for your citation of a French refugee reaching the walls of Krakow. Or Warsaw. Or anywhere in Poland. Doesn't have to be a French refugee either, cite an example of a German, if you prefer it, or an Austrian or whatever you like that's farther than 25 miles from the Polish border.
>Poland was spared somehow
Poland wasn't spared, it was afflicted relatively lightly.

>>1886939

>noone except the very rich COULD fuck off
>yes, the BLACK FUCKING DEATH was kind of terrible
>Poland wasnt spared, just suffered COMPARATIVELY LESS than others.

>>1886910
you need to accept the simple explanation that we're giving you.

>why people didn't do X
I dunno, maybe because they were retarded as fuck.

Maybe it was the jews.

Open a book.

>>1886939
the rich people was the only who could afford to fuck off to their country houses.

>>1886936
Doesn't matter if they figured out or not you retard

The first thing would be not to let strangers in

>>1886945
Still waiting for those sources they didn't
Jews managed to move to as far as Russia from fucking Spain cause some group of christians persecuted them

>Lightly
Why?

>>1886950
>No one could grab some cattle and potato equivalent and fuck off somewhere far away from where everyone is dying
>No one could have looted abandoned houses and fucked off

>The same shit happened in all kingdoms of the planet
>it didnt happen in this specific place for no apparent reason at all

>>1886954
>your first line is
>i literally have no arguments
>you have to accept baseless shit
>they were religious thralls
>wait they did something that was inneffective
>they were too dumb to do anything about it
>This specific place didnt get fucked
>why
>Idk

Quality posts

>>1886958
>see the other replies

>STill no justification whatosever to how the fuck did it get to Europe in the first place

>>1886963
Poland was also fucked retard.

>how did it arrived
in trade routes by ships mainly.

>>1886963

FFS, as far as they were concerned they HAD figured it out. It was caused by foul smells and evil planets. Why would not letting strangers in help them against that?

>noone could grab some stuff and run away
>except their lord who isnt going to let his serfs just leave without his permission
>except the people who will be out looking for them as fugitives and theives
>except fucking off far away will do no good, because its an evil planet that is killing everyone

>>1886963
>Still waiting for those sources they didn't
I can't prove a negative, idiot. In logical argumentation, when somebody asserts that something happened (i.e., that refugees were going from France to Poland), the burden of proof is up to them to prove it. When there is no evidence for it, then we default to it not happening. Until you can provide some evidence that black plague refugees fled all the way to Poland, there is no reason or meaning in assuming in any way that they did.

>Why?
>>1886201
> Poland was less urbanized than western Europe, and thus there were probably less deadly strains of the disease.
And the reason they were less deadly was because
>>1885961
>Natural selection tends to favor deadlier strains in densely populated areas where transmission is much easier, but less dangerous strains in less densely populated areas.

>>1886963

>people getting sick, moving to the next town and infecting someone else, who moves onto the next town and infecting someone else
>x32342
>no justification whatsoever to how the uck did it get to Europe

File: 1469218267935.png (32KB, 506x615px) Image search: [Google]

32KB, 506x615px

ITT: 18 angry men and one idiot

>>1886971
>Poland wasn't fucked
>Poland was fucked lightly
>Poland was fucked
which one is it?

>>1886978
>they didnt know
>they did
>They tried and failed
>They were mistaken

What is it?

>>1886982
>I can't prove something happened or not
>Jews manged to cross the entirety of Europe
>no one else could
>Some jews couldnt have caught it

>>1886983
>Asia was as dense as Europe
See

>>1886910

>>1886986
I think its 2 dudes and one watching

>>1886963
>people emigrate to safe places
>now the safe place has also the dissease from the people who scape.
good plan retard.

>>1886997
dude, we already told you.

it was the people trading goods and food that carried the dissease, that's how it reached europe.

it wasn't a single person who traveled from asia to europe dumbass.

>>1886997
>I can't prove something happened or not
You can't, and neither can I, so by occam's razor we default to it not happening.
>Jews manged to cross the entirety of Europe
at least a century before the plague ever made landfall in Europe, over three centuries. Not within four years.
>Some jews couldnt have caught it
100 years before the disease had even left China? But go on, cite something that says a Jew with the disease entered Poland's borders during the black plague.

>>1886999
>people know nothing
>o they do
>People care about thinking ahead when the alternative is horrible death

>>1887004
>thousand upon thousand of kilometers
>it took 10 years
>in 10 years no one coudl do anything

>>1887013
>If one dude got into poland which ahppened
>see jews
>Then you are proven wrong
>o wait you did

>100 years before
>No during it too cause christians blamed them for the plague

>>1886997

Which part of what they thought was the caust, wasnt actually the cause, are you hqving trouble with?

>>1887035
>If one dude got into poland which ahppened
If one dude got into Poland DURING the black death. The Jews emigrated over centuries, a century before the plague.
>Then you are proven wrong
>o wait you did
I haven't.

>100 years before
>No during it too cause christians blamed them for the plague
Prove that they did DURING the black plague. Oh wait, you can't. Not to mention that Polish tolerance had declined significantly and there were also riots against the local Polish population already.

>>1887035
>no one couldn't do nothing
No retard because medicine wasn't invented back then.

they never though about quarantine the sick people because science wasn't invented yet.

they never though about border control because not even modern europeans can do that shit.

Why don't you just go out and do your own research instead of just shitting on everyone trying to tell you the truth?

>>1887045
>They didnt know what a quarentine was
>they couldnt just kill whoever came from the east
>Whatever messure

>Jews migrated before when they were persecuted
>Jews didn't migrate because they were persecuted by jaded christians
>No one could do anything other than to pray to god
Which one is it


>>1887049
>they did take some sanitary messures
>they did try quarentine and shit but it was too late
>No one could do anyhting
>no one could tell the next kingdom not ot allow anyone in
>people carrying the disease somehow managed to travel hundrds of kilometers before dying

>>1887058
>The truth
>They contradict themselves every 3 posts

>>1887046
>and there were also riots against the local Polish population already.
*local JEWISH population.

>>1887066
>he still insists humans were the dissease vector transmission

>>1887066
>They didnt know what a quarentine was
More that it didn't work. The only areas that are known to have tried it were coastal cities that could move potentially sick individuals off the coast for a certain period, but those were of only limited effectiveness.
>they couldnt just kill whoever came from the east
Are you serious?

>Which one is it
Does everything in history happen at the same time to you?
>Jews migrated before when they were persecuted
In the 11th-13th centuries.
>Jews didn't migrate because they were persecuted by jaded christians
In the 14th century, during the Black Plague.
>No one could do anything other than to pray to god
Nice strawman, it was already stated that people did a lot more than just praying. Like going into dancing frenzies, killing Jews/heretics, sitting near huge fires, putting spices or other exotic "remedies" on yourself, or any range of options. It's just that Quarantine was not the most obvious or common remedy, and there is no proof of refugees fleeing to a relatively less afflicted nation such as Poland.

>>1887075
>human carry fleas which infect people
>fleas cant go more than a few meters without something carrying them
>Plague people would be forced inside their homes
>Bodies were burned
>You said it was because of the smell
>Humans werent the vector

>>1887066
>they did take some sanitary messures
>they did try quarentine and shit but it was too late
>No one could do anyhting
But none of these contradict each other. As you said, there were a great many civilizations and nations in the path of the plague, and they tried a whole bunch of things.
>No one could do anyhting
This is also true and not contradictory at all. Quarantine was too little, too late, and they didn't know about the fleas or rats.
>no one could tell the next kingdom not ot allow anyone in
More like it wasn't doable. The borders of a vast nation such as Poland that is mainly plains could not be secured in its entirety.
>people carrying the disease somehow managed to travel hundrds of kilometers before dying
Fleas, rats, etc.

>>1887079
>people carry food
>traders and peasants exchange said food
>it attracts rats that contains the fleas that carry the disease
>some rats travels inside the food bags carrying the dissease
>people exchange and trade helped to make the dissease traveled to europe in 10 years
>let's border control the people but not the food that contains the rats that contains the flea that contains the dissease
>still thinking it was just one merchant that traveled for ten years carrying the dissease

>>1887079
>fleas cant go more than a few meters without something carrying them
or rats which rode in the wagons. The fleas could always bite a new rat at the next village, or a new human.
>Plague people would be forced inside their homes
>Bodies were burned
Far too late. As you said, it takes well over a week for symptoms to occur, and the disease would have spread to local vermin and fleas well before their bodies were burned.
>You said it was because of the smell
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miasma_theory
read, idiot.
>Humans werent the vector
Yes, they weren't. They helped transport the vectors on their boats and caravans, but they weren't the main vectors (though they certainly could be vectors)

File: images.png (6KB, 230x219px) Image search: [Google]

6KB, 230x219px

>>1887078
>in 10 years across all the civilized world no one could
>o wait poland did

>Keeps contradicting
>Jews migrated when they were persecuted
>Jews were usually stripped from everything, they couldnt even own land
>Even then they migrated
>They wouldnt migrate to the east when they were persecuted
>random people couldnt migrate


>This is literally what you said
>and now you call it an strawman
I think your brain might be overloading

>>1887085
>They didnt know and nor do
>They did know and did
>nto a contradiction

>see above

>It wasnt doable to send a super fast courier marathon style to the next kigndom or 3 cities away
>etc


>Fleas rats can travel further than a human being
>In fucking 10 years
>No traces of the plague after
>Plague never came back

>>1887094
>Merchants carry flea rats birds monkeys and every single thing there is that can carry the disease and they are all infected
>peopel wouldnt start stoning merchant from hundreds of meters away

>>1887095
>in 10 years and 10k kilometers no one noticed or did anything

>The point is that you said they didnt takme essures
>thye did
>theory
>as in not fact, just theory

>They werent vectors
>they only carried the vector which couldnt have gotten there without them

>>1887105
open a book.

we already told you what happened and you still insist on being retarded.

go open a history book retard.

it simply happened.
you asked why they didn't do X.

well not shit, we only have some written books, we can't fucking time travel faggot.

>>1887122
>Ive read a book and have this arguments based on the books
>Arguments i cant even defend
>Go do the same pointless shit i did
>appeal to authority fallacy

>>1887132
go read a book if you want the real information.
otherwise simply wait until time travel is invented and ask the medieval people why they didn't use modern science to cure people.

>>1887105
>They didnt know and nor do
Ctrl+F this quote. Nowhere on this page apart from your post was this said. But yes, they didn't know what worked.
>They did know and did
Ctrl+F this quote. You are the only one posted this, you are literally making up quotes to try to strawman people. They did not know, but they did try quarantine.

>It wasnt doable to send a super fast courier marathon style to the next kigndom or 3 cities away
I didn't say that. As I said, it wasn't possible to do what the actual super fast courier said to do, to cut off all access to a nation.
>Fleas rats can travel further than a human being
Yes, they can, more than the average human peasant, at least. As said before, the average peasant rarely went more than 25 miles away from home. But fleas can be found on caravans on the silk road, changing hands between middlemen, or on merchant vessels crossing hundreds of miles of Indian ocean. Fleas and Rats did indeed travel farther than human beings.
>In fucking 10 years
Yes. I don't know why this is shocking to you.
>No traces of the plague after
>Plague never came back
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_plague_pandemic
Idiot.

>>1887105
>in 10 years and 10k kilometers no one noticed or did anything
As said previously, they noticed and tried a lot of things, but most of them were unsuccessful.

>The point is that you said they didnt takme essures
I didn't say that, there are 18 people here.
>theory
>as in not fact, just theory
Yes, it's not fact, just theory. But people believed it, as you would know if you had read it.

>They werent vectors
>they only carried the vector which couldnt have gotten there without them
Do you actually know what the definition of vector is or are you just making it up?
>http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs387/en/
>Vectors are living organisms that can transmit infectious diseases between humans or from animals to humans
When a human is carrying a flea with the bubonic plague, it is not itself a vector, though it is transporting a vector. This is the source of the vast majority of bubonic plague infections. Only in the extremely rare Septicemic plague is it directly transmitted from human to human. So in the vast majority of cases of bubonic plague, humans are not the vectors.

>>1887138
>appeal to authority fallacy again
Its like you dont even read my posts you retard
a jew probably wrot eyour books anyeays

>>1887141
>Hurr peasants wont run away from dying people

>>1887150
They had 18 years, why didnt they just close the borders and kill everyone sick?

>>1887138
re read the posts you are replying to

>>1887141
>Ctrl+F this quote. Nowhere on this page apart from your post was this said. But yes, they didn't know what worked.
>Ctrl+F this quote. You are the only one posted this, you are literally making up quotes to try to strawman people. They did not know, but they did try quarantine.
you are ctrfing the insinuation of something that is written of course you are not going to find it you retard

>Courier that says close the border or 75% of your population would die
>Sent by an important figure
>after rumors reached your borders
>wasnt possible
>wouldnt at least have provoked an action

>Fleas and rats can move thousands of kilometers

>disease killed in less than 10 days
>Symptons were extremely visible
>somehow people successfully did hundreds of kilometers journeys

>Plague killed 2/3 of all relevant population
>It kept coming back
>Somehow it didnt kept wiping 2/3 of the population
This literally supports my initial claim its impossible for it to be natural

>>1887150
No your first claim was that they were religious nutjobs

>18
2 and one watching

>everyone believed the same theory
>everyone acted according to what god thought and did nothing
>They tried but failed
How many times are you going to keep changing and falling for the same tricks over and over?

>Without humans shit wouldnt have happened
>Im going to be a dense cunt and argue semantics

>Implying the corpses weren't repleted with the virus to the brim
>O wait the virus killed them by induction

anyways im bored

you all suck

>>1887158
>>1887162
give us a better explanation then of how the dissease transmitted.

>>1887158
>Hurr peasants wont run away from dying people
They wouldn't run to a whole different country. You haven't proved otehrwise.

>They had 18 years
No single country had 18 years.
>why didnt they just close the borders
Because it's impossible for a non-unitary nation state (i.e. feudal monarchies such as European nation) to systematically and regularly close its borders. Lords built castles because they didn't have walls to secure or close their borders against foreign intrusion.

>you are ctrfing the insinuation of something that is written of course you are not going to find it you retard
Insinuations you also made up.

>Courier that says close the border or 75% of your population would die
Unreliable. Are the Poles and Hungarians really going to believe a courier sent by the Golden Horde? Is a Frenchman really going to believe a courier sent by an Englishman? Or a Byzantine going to trust a Turkic courier?
>Sent by an important figure
An important figure of a nation that you probably aren't on great terms with.
>after rumors reached your borders
Still can't physically protect the whole border.
>wasnt possible
yes, it wasn't possible.
>wouldnt at least have provoked an action
Which could be anything, including but hardly limited to trying to close a hundred-mile border with feudal levies and hired men-at-arms.

>disease killed in less than 10 days
You could be asymptomatic for up to 4 days.
>Symptons were extremely visible
After up to 4 days.
>Fleas and rats can move thousands of kilometers
What are trading vessels?

>This literally supports my initial claim its impossible for it to be natural
No, it doesn't. Natural Selection would obviously have selected for individuals inherently resistant to the plague, so successive generations would have been increasingly inured against the plague.

>No your first claim was that they were religious nutjobs
No, it wasn't.
>2 and one watching
You've been making up this claim for a while now. Where's the source?

>>1887162
>everyone believed the same theory
I didn't say that.
>everyone acted according to what god thought and did nothing
Nobody said this. They prayed, whipped themselves, and killed heretics.
>They tried but failed
Yes, some tried, but it failed.
>How many times are you going to keep changing and falling for the same tricks over and over?
That would be you, given that we're pretty much copy and pasting asnwers now.

>Without rats and fleas shit wouldnt have happened
>Im going to be a dense cunt and argue semantics

>Implying the corpses weren't repleted with the virus to the brim
As you reminded us, the corpses were burnt.

>>1887190
>>1887180
I already won you can keep posting i dont care

anything you can write has alraedy been answered now you are arguing about what i meant or you meant that i meant you meant

You suck and are boring

Your new tactic is to grind me out

Thats literally pathetic

its like the admission you can't come up with anything

>o you have no argumnets
literally re read my posts

bye

>>1887199
read a book idiot.

>>1887199
>I already won you can keep posting i dont care
If your objective was to convince 21 people that you have a learning ability, you have succeeded grandly.
>You suck and are boring
Takes one to know one.
>Your new tactic is to grind me out
That has been your tactic this whole time.
>Thats literally pathetic
I agree.
>its like the admission you can't come up with anything
>W-why c-can't they s-send messengers to close the border
>w-why di-didn't they just go to P-poland
>W-what are fleas and rats
>t-two and one watching, I'm totally holding my own guys
Your entire argument summed up for you.

>oh you have no arguments
literally reread the other 21 of us' posts

>>1887210
Last post

>21
2 and 1 of course as i said before

No it wasn't. you changed by the end when yo ustarted to write multiple posts and wall of text

Of course you agree

My point is that the mainstream arguments makes no sense

You couldnt even come up with anything to disapprove me

>he couldnt come up with anything
Literally re read mines

bye for real

>>1887227
you have no sources or evidence beyond opinions.

>>1885884
>Don't shoot the messenger they said

So did we all agree it was once again the perfidious Jews, to make retardo OP happy?

>>1886037

this is a great post.

Holy shit what a retarded thread
>implying the average european serf even knew what a Poland was

>>1887227
>2 and 1 of course as i said before
Proof?
>No it wasn't. you changed by the end when yo ustarted to write multiple posts and wall of text
And you have been doing it from the beginning, which makes it all the more pathetic.
>My point is that the mainstream arguments makes no sense
You've done a terrible job of doing so.
>You couldnt even come up with anything to disapprove me
The word you're looking for is disprove, and 20 people and I have all done so and agreed that you're retarded

>he couldnt come up with anything
Literally reread mine and the other 20 peoples' posts.