Why would God created us knowing we would sin? Can't he

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>>1879075
>google search Pavlov's dogs
No one is programmed with gay impulses, loose the crutch and stop being a victim. God gave you free will, you are the master of your own ship, quit being cucked by societies sexual delusions.

>>1879190
Aaaaaamen my man!

God did not create us so we would sin, God created us with free will. Sin is an side effect of it, it is not gods intention. It is simply a necessary part of giving us free will.

When you ask if God can predict the future you are looking at Gods existence in time in the wrong way - he does not exist in a linear fashion in time along with us, but rather outside of it. He does not predict, he knows because it has already happened for him.

God does not call anyone abominations - if anything it can be argued that since Jesus Christ fulfilled the laws of the old testament, we are not bound by them and the only rule we must follow is to love God.

If God did not curse us he would not be just, Adam and Eve went against the rules he had laid down. It would not be right if a judge did not send a man to prison for killing someone out or concern for the mans future. God sentences us because he is jufuturlbut simultaneously offers us his forgiveness and redemption through his love.

I hope that answered your questions!

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>gay impulse

>>1879075
HaShem didn't create us to sin, sin is an aforementioned consequence of creation that He wanted to happen. Eve ate from the tree and learned what's known as the Yetzer hara, or the evil inclination. Thus, He states that this is "tov me'od", or very good.

>>1879075

yeah. why did god create the devil knowing he would turn evil and cause man to sin dragging billions of souls to hell with him for all eternity? why would a loving god create a soul knowing hes going to eventually send it to hell for eternity? its inconsistent with a loving, all knowing god.

>>1879283
This is only consistent with the Christian bastardization of the Hebrew Bible. None of His creations are evil, and none of them can revolt.

>>1879218
>God created us with free will.

Wasn't god supposed to be all-knowing? For an all-knowing entity nothing such as free will can exist.

>>1879291

dont jews have a devil?

>>1879075

Don't blame God for being gay, you Mindless shithead.. You have free will. It's Your Fault that you're a WEAK AND GIRLY.

>>1879321
We are our own devil. Our actions are the general consensus on whether or not we spend eternity in Sheol, or Heaven (Plan Ha-Ba, The World to Come), one might believe that there is a ruling power in this hell-like area, however to deny that it was G-d who put Them in charge is ignorance.

>>1879338
>It's Your Fault that you're a WEAK AND GIRLY.

isnt he "created in gods image"?

>>1879075
Stop crying. There's no god. He hid not create us. He did not give us gay impulse.

>>1879390
You can't be created by something that doesn't exist :&)

>>1879190
truth

>>1879075
Because God doesn't exist.

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MattyB best youtuber

>>1879075

Because the benefits outweighed the costs.

Stop being a cost, and start being a benefit.

>>1879075
>Thinking about God in Human Standards

>>1880247
>the bible literally does this exact thing

>>1879075
Because our so-called sin- exactly where, when, and in the amount we commit it- delights him more than anything else could.
This follows naturally from His omnipotence.

>>1880699
>Almost as though we were created in God's image.

>>1879218
There have been (very) roughly 115 billion human beings that have ever existed. The vast majority of them have never heard of Christianity, or if they have, they lived in a place hostile to Christianity.

Why did God give free will to a hypothetical pacific Islander girl that lived 400 years ago, and lived the whole of her life without knowing about Christianity, if she couldn't become a Christian?

>>1879311
Read Boëthius- The Consolation of Philosophy, book 5

>>1880865
I wouldn't be able to do that in lifespan of this thread, so it would be nice if you wrote the argument yourself.

All I could find was that Boethius tried to solve the issue through claiming that god is timeless and sees world as 4D pic.

>>1880865
I had a look and saw nothing to answer the question.
He appeals to that "God has made us free, to do good or evil as we will". But what, ultimately, determines what we will? Our own choice? What is the determinant of that? Or is there none but randomness, our wills the result of a dice-roll?
And I cannot see why anything in the world God, the master optimizer, chooses of all the possibilities can be called truly, rather than, merely to our perspective, evil or imperfect.
Moreover, even if we blasphemously reject God's omnipotence and treat him as a lacking-in-power deity, it's clear to all human reason that he is either impotent or mostly disinterested in helping us achieve salvation.

>it's a someone who doesn't know anything about the bible makes assumptions about the bible episode

just once i wish you fags would do some preliminary research before sharing your dumb uninformed opinions

>>1881011
Itsjust theology senpai, a totally useless subject that only serves to entertain by throught-games

we can be as dumb and uninformed as we want, its just harmless fun

If you are already assuming the existence of an omnipotent deity, remember that omnipotence necessarily requires that deity to know exactly what it feels like to be you, with all of your problems and pains.
Why would an entity cause unnecessary suffering when he knows that he would have to experience himself?

>>1881035
>experience himself
it himself*

>>1881035
I meant to say omniscient also instead of omnipotent.
Fuck it, I'm going to bed.

>>1879075
There is no god, there never was a god, and there never will be a god.

>>1881096
t. totally not god

>>1879218
>god knows everything
>therefore god knows everything that happened, everything that is happening and everything that will happen

>god creates us
>god says he gave us free will
>but at the moment of the creation god already knows that we will sin
>god willingly creates beings that he knows will sin and then punishes them for ir anyway

Point being either
A) God doesn't know everything
B) Free will doesn't exist and god is cruel

free will exists and so does sin?

People choose to sin

Sin is basic misdeed causes a bad reaction for the self or someone else

>>1880852
about 1/10 of that

>>1880977
>he is either impotent or mostly disinterested in helping us achieve salvation.

What an absurd and unfounded assertion.

>>1880977
>Why doesn't God totally overwhelm me and force me to love him???

>>1881884
Gonna be titchy.

You're talking about transgressions, breaking the law, and iniquity, doing wicked things.

Sin is "missing the mark", as in an archer trying to hit a target and missing it completely.

In this context, the mark is "be perfect, as the father in heaven is perfect" and we all have missed that mark. We have all sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Some of us realize that there is a cure for that.

Most of us do not.

And the cure covers transgressions and iniquities as well as sin.

>>1881884
sin isn't an action and no one chooses to sin

>>1879075
He is either and evil son of a bitch who want to fuck with us or isn't omnipotent but claims to be

>>1881899
Sin is the cause, bad karma is the effect. If you do something you known is bad, or something you know is not good, or something you know is the right thing to do but fail to do it, that is sin

>>1881900
People choose to sin, people choose to ignore sin. Sin is bad action that you know is sin

>>1881904
OR maybe he let's people do wrong so they can learn right. God is omnipotent and all that, so he knows when you do wrongness and he knows you have the ability to change your reality by consciously putting that into effect, know that you can change your reality with God rather than be predestined to fall

>>1881909
God created adam knowing full well that by creating him in such a manner he would fuck up and be punished. Free will cannot co-exist with omnipotence

>>1881917
Yes it can. You might not think son but that's just your perception. You have to use your free will with God, who shows you the paths

>>1881924
>God has the ability to create a perfect race of humans that have free will and still make the right calls and reach salvation
>decides to say fuck it, I'm gonna create them in a manner that causes most to fuck up and need to be tortured for eternity
Almost seems like a poorly thought out fairy-tale

>>1880852
Lol I guess God couldn't be bothered with those people

>>1881924
No, it can't. He just showed you. Either you don't have free will, god isn't all powerful or god isn't all knowing.

>>1881948
God can do anything that's why we call Him God.
God can be all power full and give us free will and we work to gether to get the job done,

>>1879075
gobacktothefarms senpai

>>1881907
people don't choose to sin. sin is in the human nature

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>>1881889
Unfounded?
I daresay almost all of the billions that you have damned could have been saved had they been properly educated in the faith, shown its truth and reminded of the importance of following the proper path. But they have not been so guided.
If a powerful God wished to establish a church for the salvation of all mankind, firstly it would 1) be universal, found in a usable state in every society at all periods; 2) indisputable- not open to schism or challenge by any but the most deliberately wicked, who would be clearly recognizable as such- not needing to be disproven with dozens of books by scholars; and 3) clear- with all moral needs and the validities and natures of all sacraments readily displayed, not invisible and needing doctors to explicate millennia late.
Now, you admit that there are those, even unbelievers, whom God has guided to salvation with miracles. But these are a minority of the desperate masses. If Mary loves us, why does she appear so sparsely and speak so cryptically? No mother or father would tolerate their poor children to ever enter a whorehouse. Indeed, Catholic morality condemns as mortally sinful the parent who does so! And it is right to do so, since such behavior is clearly detrimental (in general, ceteris paribus, as we speak, &c.) and neglectful. And yet our supposed heavenly Father and Mother, our supposed exemplars of virtue and goodness, not only see such a horrid thing millions of times and fail to intervene, but entirely anticipated and enabled it. God is the accomplice, and by all reasonable parlance an actor, of every sin and depraved act in history.
You may say that God's priorities are good and that he is mighty. But you cannot say in any non-defiled sense that the salvation of mankind is high on his desires.

But all this theorizing is assuming a blasphemous proposition, for IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO CONCEIVE THAT THE TRUE GOD'S WILL COULD EVER BE CONTRADICTED IN ANY WAY OR MET WITH ANYTHING BUT PERFECTION.

>>1879075
Because life is a training program for AIs to see if they will exercise self control and proper conduct to each other.

God is not real. Get over it.

>>1881959
>God knows all
>God can create Adam in any way he pleases
>God knows that if he creates Adam in a certain way he will fuck up
>Then god proceeds to create Adam in that way
>Then Adam inevitably fucks up, which God knew he would do
>Then God gets mad that Adam fucked up and yells at him
>Then God tortures Adam for fucking up
>God knows all of this at the point he created Adam
>God creates Adam knowing he will eventually torture Adam

The Question is why did god create Adam in such a way that Adam would fuck up?

Is he just a dick?

Is he lying about being Omnipotent?

Or is the whole god thing just bullshit?

>>1882146
God is a tragic poet.

>>1882154
More like God is a kid with a magnifying glass burning ants out of boredom

>>1882146
Why not?

Why not ask what God does for us. Adam is cool but like, what about us now, in the present

>>1882165
The exact same argument applies to all of humanity, Adam is just a recognizable example.

>>1882169
Cause were all created like Adam

>>1882184
God knew everything that would ever happen to ever human ever before he even created Adam, so in that respect yes

>>1882194
So if God know everything that can happen to us, sees something is not so good, He can come to us somehow and help us change the outcome of something not so good, we just have to apply ourselves

>>1881942
>>1882146
These are the best arguments against the "we sin because we have freewill" idea. God could've easily created us with freewill and without a desire to sin, just like how most people don't have the desire to eat shit or poke themselves in the idea. Why did God create us with a incredibly powerful desire to fuck people out of marriage when that's a sin? Or to be stubbornly rational and refuse to believe in something irrational if that damns us to Hell? Or love getting drunk when drunkenness is a sin?

>>1882206
It sound like I think it's easy but we all have difficulties I know it sounds "typed" but idk it's hard sometime

>>1882207

Exactly God is either very inefficient and doesn't know how to create people with freewill who won't sin or is malevolent to some degree.

Christian will argue that God loves all of man unconditionally but he still created sin, and made man in such a way that he would sin, and then punishes them for sinning.

Christians then pull the "well we can't hope to understand god" or the "u just need 2 believe" argument because their argument is logically inconsistent.

>>1879075
Gods didn't create people.

People created gods...

>>1879075
To send us ti hell

>>1879283

for the money

>>1882045

I literally screamed like a little girl, thanks faggot

>>1879190
I didn't choose to be gay. I still didn't want it.

Why can't I choose to be straight?

>>1879075
Because he wanted us to sin

>>1882227
People choose to sin.

Christians also forget to mention that people choose to sin but do you want to be spoon-fed what you have to learn on your own?

You can understand God, don't believe outside of your own reason you'll figure it out eventually it'll take time but stop falling for others Bs and don't let the stereotypes hold you back

>why would God do X
Put simply, we don't know why God does anything. It takes an extremely arrogant type of person to think you can question an omniscient, omnipotent being.

>>1879075

Why can I play with knives, even when my parents forbid me doing it?

>free will exists
>god is omniscient

Pick one and only one.

>>1879190
>be born with autism/schizophrenia/etc
>master of your own ship
>implying this is not a meme
>implying you're not a meme

>>1883701
We can understand why God stuffs, I don't know where this idea came from that we can get a basic idea of why God does things.

Also, nothing s wrong with asking God questions. You could ask honestly with genuine curiosity, you could also ask arrogantly

>>1883716
Both

>>1883718
>tfw losing best friend of 18 years to schizophrenia

He aint even the same man anymore

>>1883653
>People choose to sin
Because god created sin and then created people who would inevitably sin
He could have created a sin free world or a race of people with both free will and no sin
God is an asshole

>>1879075
Because Christfags cannot accept that free will and omnipotence logically cannot exist at the same time. If you call them out on it you can watch them put on a performance worth of an Olympic god in mental gymnastics.

>>1883850
Sin is a misdeed. Man makes misdeeds. God gave us free will to choose, that is why we can do good things and bad things.

>>1883865
Yes they can. God gives us the ability to choose what we want to do, good or bad. He is all knowing; so if He sees bad, He will tell us before hand, so we can make adjustments or; after we do bad, we watch how our own choice of actions effects us negatively, in which we control our own karma.

You could call it mental gymnastics, or you could apply what I just wrote to your highly valued logic

>>1883908
God could have created humans with both free will and no sin.
The fact that he didn't means he wants humans to suffer.

>>1883921
He did make humans with free will, and babies are not sinners, but will be inclined to sin and learn how life works like everyone else has. All of us have a pure stage, and then when we are young we get a "slap on the wrist" by our parent/guardian, and when we are older we start to see that when we act out of greed it hurts people, and when we give up the struggle to gain the world we start to give in more positive intentions

What makes you think God wants anyone to suffer? He wants us to learn for ourselves how to overcome this opposition so we can no longer suffer

>>1883956
Again you wont address the problem with your argument. God created humans in such a way that they would sin. He could have created humans that would not sin. So why did he decide to create a race of sinners instead of a race that would not sin.

The fact that he created everything mean he also created sin

>>1883973
There isn't a problem though, or an argument, God created human, humans sinned by their own accord.

Even people who don't believe in God, the know there are consequences to their actions. Action is neutral, initially not good, not bad, however there are things we do that are good, like giving, complimenting, helping, and there are things wee do that are bad, like lying, cheating, hurting others.

We can choose what we do. Why doesn't God stop us? Free will. How does an all knowing God exist with humanities free will? He simply just does. When God knows you are going to do bad, when you are connected with Him, you'll see it in advance so you can adjust yourself to do good instead. Those who aren't connected with God are focused on other things instead of God, and they consciously choose to ignore God.

That isn't say "just believe man", but you have to learn about God with good intention, otherwise, you are choosing right now to ignore God to fool around and do something else, which you might still be doing good deeds, which is good, but when people sin, it is because they are focused in the wrong places.

>>1884052
>There isn't an argument

Well, at least you got this right. You only need to rephrase it as "I have no...", "there isn't an..." is bad grammar

>>1884052
>When God knows you are going to do bad, when you are connected with Him, you'll see it in advance so you can adjust yourself to do good instead. Those who aren't connected with God are focused on other things instead of God, and they consciously choose to ignore God.

Very good answer, however I think when saying "focused on other things than God" it is key to point out you should know a balance between reality, thought and not being overzealous.

>>1884064
Why would I want to argue with you though? I don't know you.

What I do know is that humanity has free will and God is omni-abunchofeverything

>>1884065
The key is to point out God is not separate from thought or reality.

>>1882031
Having such a clear and concise message to all mankind and proving that He exists, The Lord would have us fear rather than love Him. That is the reason that so many fall away, it is impossible, while allowing true freedom of choice, that all mankind will come to The Lord to be saved.

As for those billions, I do not know and do not know how anyone could know what is to become of those souls. But, I trust the decision of The Lord will be just.

>>1883716
These are not incompatible.

>>1879338
It was an example you retard

>>1879075
It's all horseshit. Don't think about it too hard.

ITT: Idiots think that it's possible to have free will while somehow being unable to sin. People like you are why civil liberties are eroded and eventually taken away.

>>1879190
You are wrong. Google some gay porn.

>>1883716

God does not tell you what he knows.

You cannot read God's mind.

Further, you are trapped in time, and God is not.

Both exist independently.

>>1881907
"Sin" = not being like God.

>>1882031
Here is the salvation God has provided:

1. Universal.
2. Indisputable.
3. Clear.
4. Pre-paid.
5. Eternal.

God's express will will not be violated.

Many evil things happen in God's permissive will. God's permissive will is necessary for you to exercise your free will.

Jesus is the author and finisher of everyone who is saved's salvation. He paid the price. He bought the pardons.

They're free for the asking. Simply confess with your mouth, that is to say out loud, that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead. (Rom. 10:9-10).

Universal. Indisputable. Clear. Pre-paid. Eternal.

>>1882146

Are you saying you wouldn't have fucked up?

You have 1 rule too. Believe in Jesus.

How are you doing with your 1 rule?

>>1882227
To remove the possibility of sin is to create automatons.

Maybe you would feel loved by your real sex bot mindlessly repeating "I love you", but God wouldn't.

>>1883258
You can't, and you're not supposed to. You're supposed to embrace the fact that you are flawed by nature, and accept god despite it.
Holding on to your faith is the true test, not fixing your imperfections.

>>1883258

If you want the power to rid yourself of this temptation, you need to have the Holy Spirit working on your side. He is power.

To get the Holy Spirit working on your side, to transform you away from what you think you must be, you must become a born again Christian and have the Holy Spirit reside in you.

Same sex temptation is not a sin, it's a temptation. The problem is that this society displays this sin as an identity, as a source of pride, and attempt to satisfy the deepest needs of their heart by belonging to this group of people.

Everyone wants Love, Acceptance, Meaning and Purpose in their lives. Everyone tries to fulfill those needs using different things.

Only God can satisfy those needs, because God created us in such a way that only he can satisfy those needs.

>>1884958

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>>1884246
Curious then that so many Biblical figures had clear and concise messages and proofs, or at least benefited from signs far, far superior than most others have had. And they too often rejected God, so...?
And I don't understand how "fear" is increased and "love" decreased by certainty that something exists and is right. Verily, it seems to me the other way around.
>>1884958
>permissive will
The problem with this idea is that it assumes that there's a source for things or actions or wills independent from God, which He did not ultimately create and devise. This is dualism.
As for the rest of it, you seem to mistakenly think this is an intra-occidental soteriological dispute, and honestly it seems kind of like a copypasta.
>>1884965
Then he should go find some other meta-arch-reality caused by another First Cause to hang out in, since the one He made clearly can't contain anything not utterly subjugated to his will in every detail. Since He's omnipotent.

>>1879376
Underrated post

God is an evil being. It is as simple as that.

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>>1884958
> God's permissive will is necessary for you to exercise your free will.
Nah. That is complete bullshit. God created all of the laws in the universe, but somehow it's always our ability to break moral laws to do evil is totally necessary for our "free will" and not say... ability to break laws of gravity or defy our mortality. It is pretty clear that you can take away ability to sin, but allow people to choose between infinities of a non-sinful actions if you want to grant them some sort of limited "free will". God already implements thousands of physical laws that we can't deny as free will wasn't there. If God bans dozens of sinful actions, ultimately nothing would really change at the end. So called "free will" already pretty limited.

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>>1879190
Right, and giving little Billy bone cancer at age 5 was something Billy chose with his free will. And giving someone schizophrenia which causes them to kill someone is also something that they've been motivated by society to do, of course. It's totally his fault that god created his mind to have a dysfunctional personality.

Basically, here's what God does: He creates something, knowing full well that when he creates that thing it's going to do things he doesn't like (If he can't see the future, he's not omniscient), and then punishes it for doing the things he doesn't like. That's like purposely creating a car with an engine you know will break down, and getting pissed when the engine breaks down.

>>1885315
It's rather that god is a neutral "being".
The pattern of balance can be seen everywhere in the universe - good and bad are constantly trying to eliminate each other to reach the neutral state again.

>>1885364
We know that universe aren't balanced, because it isn't cyclic. Future is more important than past, so there is already lack of balance. Everything falls in heat death or whatever end goal there is, consider that entropy is like casino. It always wins. God, of course, could be neutral. But more like above it all apathetic kind of neutral instead of balancing kind.

>>1879075
>Why would God created us knowing we would sin? Can't he predict the future?
The evil one tricked the first man to pride and arrogance by rebelling from God the Father which is the sin of mankind. And God is omniscient since he contains time and space in His own uncontained being. The New Covenant of Jesus Christ is for the salvation of the all men, not just the chosen elect of the first covenant who continuously rebelled against God as it's told in the Old Testament books. His people are saved by faith and redeemed by Him who can remove the stain of sin that came into existence as man acted by free will against his creator. God came down to die and resurrect out of love for men imbued with mind and soul and created in his image.

>>1886086
*His image

>>1886086
> The evil one tricked
And why God didn't stop Stan?

>>1886103
God works in mysterious ways and that's just how the story goes, friend. Satan is the evil one who has the power to trick man, not God (who's all good and ever true to His word).

>>1886115
I dunno, God lied about tree being instant deadly. Can you really trust his word after that?

>>1886134
The sin of man resulted in his death because he wanted to know too much. The question I ask is whether God caused man's decay and death after he sinned, or did Adam's sin and expulsion occur in an instant as he acted and broke some law of nature in paradise - not the temporal world that men now live in (where he has no power over laws of nature, only knowing them and accommodating himself to them).

>>1886188
The longing to know more about the world around him, cursed adam to death. Nay, the curiosity of his wife cursed him to die. God place d two intelligent and independent creatures in a world of wonder and expected them not to. God offers free will, but punish those who exercise it in a way he doesn't like, even if those ways aren't necessarily wrong or evil. I cannot subscribe to that train of thought.

I think God is a legitimate being, creator and all. I think his involvment in this creation is like a person watching a simulation. He could at any point chose to alter the parameters of the simulation and change it's course and has done so before. I like the idea that he is an impartial watcher. For him it is a simulation, he is seperate from the actions of us. For us it is real and his choices affect each and everyone of us, but he chooses not to act. Why would he need to be loved or worshiped? If he wanted that he could have created a race of people to do that.
You don't create a race of people to do a specific thing, give them option not to do that thing, then get upest when they don't do it. I learned that in the second grade. Certainly God is smarter than a 7 year old

>>1885341
Naw, if you didn't have a choice then God does'nt hold you accountable for it. Homosexuality does'nt exist, neither does heterosexuality. There are just homosexual and heterosexual acts - if you take part in homosexual acts you are sinning - but it was up to your whether or not you partake in them or not.

>>1886299
Why is it a sin? What makes it inherently evil?

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>>1886306
Because God did dun say so in the bibble, ya moran! Also it's different, and different things are always bad.

>>1879075
>If he loves us so much
As much as you love the stickmen you draw, I'm sure.