Gnostic heretics. Can you quit trying to revise Christian history,

What are Gnostics revising?

>>1877102
no u dont understand ireneus and all those guys were brainwashed by le demiurge so u cant trust them youtube is much more reliable since it isnt biased by the church

>gnostics

literally who?

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>>1877102
>Accusing gnostics of revising Christian
>namedropping Irenaeus of all people

>>1877137
Are you this poster?

>>1877115

>>1877102
wtf are you talking about. We use Nag Hammadi sources not some old fucks propaganda

Even Paul was knocking gnostics using your own technical term against you.

The apostle Paul had to deal with them. In Ephesians and Colossians he counters the Gnostic heresy by co-opting its jargon to express Biblical truth. "Pleroma" was a technical term used by the Gnostics to refer to the totality of angels and "aeons" that supposedly mediated between God and humanity. We learn in these letters that Paul prays for the believers be "filled with all the pleromaof God" (Eph. 3:19),, that "It pleased God to have Hispleromalive in His Son" (Col. 1:19), and "in Him (the Messiah), bodily, lives thepleromaof all that God is" (Col. 2:9). Paul takes the wind out of the Gnostics' sails by proclaiming that its aim of attaining thepleromacannot be reached by leaving the body but by joining the Body of the Messiah through trusting in and being faithful to Yeshua, the Son of Jehovah.

>>1877172
Paul is revered by the Gnostics, specially Valentinians

>>1877102
Might as well let the Gnostics revise early Christian history, there isn't much of it that has been left unrevised by propagandists of various types.

>>1877172
Paul is a Gnostic. Gnosis does not have any particular belief, it just a word that implies there is knowledge. He is still Christian, as well as a Gnostic. Same with John.

>>1877147
No? Just look up on who Irenaeus is

>>1877189
>tfw all history is propaganda

mind = blown

WTF IS A GNOSTIC

>>1877172
It's seriously like watching people discuss UFO stories.

>>1877193
This
Being a gnostic doesn´t make you less christian

>>1877196
That's not too far from the truth. The idea of impartial, objective review of history is a pipe-dream. History is a series of competing narratives and perspective.

>>1877194
A saint and church father?

I assume you believe that this automatically invalidates his writings which is why I asked if you were that poster.

>>1877197
It means mystical knowledge imparted to a person who believes they experience God for themselves.

It does not mean "worship 'lucifer' ", it does not mean "yhwh is the demiurge", there are many schools of thought, many. Some believe YHWH is the Monad, while others believe YHWH is the demiurge. Some believe the demiurge is evil, some understand Creation to be a good thing. There is no duality between the Father and the Creator, because the Father is thought and the Creation is the manifestation of thought and action.

>>1877205
wow you really cant know nuthin I guess

Christianity is a continuation of enochian Judaism and Gnosticism is a heretical splintering of Christianity.

End of Story.

>>1877200
Man it feels good to see someone post that finally. That is the power of God at work right there...

>>1877217
There are Gnostic elements in Enoch, Judaism, and Christianity. Gnosticism isn't a religion, but it is an aspect, a quality.

You could be a Gnostic Jew, a Gnostic Muslim, and Gnostic Christian, a Gnostic Buddhist, anything, all Gnosis means is knowledge, and the implication of that knowledge has to do with mysticism, revelation, and experience.

Jesus Christ, a Gnostic. Moses, a Gnostic. Enoch, who walked with God, that is Gnosis.

>>1877215
Well you can't. There's a reason that attempting to objectively understand something is compared to trying to pull yourself out of a bog by your ponytail.

>>1877217
> heretical splintering
or you could say, the guys who lost

>>1877227
whoah

Pfft. 1st Enoch is not gnostic.

Gnosticism tries to frame Yah as a demiurge evil entity. It's like Marcionism but more mystical with a bunch of incomprehensible junk about aeons and archons.

Enochs eschatology matches revelations however, and neither Paul nor Jesus said anything about a demi urge.

That simple.

>>1877229
Or you could say the guys who weren't favored by God.

>>1877238
Does that mean God is about to favor Islam in a few years?

>>1877237
Walking with God = Gnosis

Yah is not evil. That is a meme, overused by internet "gnosis", and YHWH is not the demiurge; depending on the school, though, the Demiurge is not evil, but many disagree. Kabbalah is a popular influence on modern Gnosis, and YHWH is very respected as the Most High to the Jews, most of them.

The reason why Jesus and Paul doesn't mention archons directly in the NT is because it is that simple, why would you reveal all that concealed information plainly? They definitely discussed openly with the other Apostles, but when it comes to writing, it is very often blatantly concealed.

Just to encourage you to read into it for yourself.

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Walking with God = Faith

It's like no one has read Hebrews.

>>1877238
ot those who didn´t care about politics and kings and emperors

>>1877251
>he thinks Christianity won't /rise again/

>>1877260
Faith = Gnosis

>1Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see.

Faith IS Knowledge, certainty in what you cannot see.

The word for faith is πίστις "pistis" as in "Pistis Sophia" or Faith Wisdom

Faith is Wisdom and Knowledge, on the Tree of Life, these are the 2nd and 3rd spheres.

>2This is why the ancients were commended.…

commended means praised, the ancients, all of them revered the Gnosis

>>1877261
The gnostics were suppressed by the church even while the church was being suppressed by the empire. However it is true that gnostics do not care about the Kingdom of God.

>>1877280
The church also became an empire, and hated the Gnosis. Gnosis does care for the Kingdom of Heaven.

>They can't say, 'Here it is!' or 'There it is!' You see, the kingdom of God is within you." (17:21 Luke)

The Kingdom is within us, around us, above us.

>>1877279
What an occultic obfuscation of terminology

>>1877280
Gnostics did cared but the whole martyrdom thing was just absurd

>>1877313
It isn't occult though, it is in plain sight, very available online, in books. It only seems occult because people choose to keep it hidden, even though the human soul that God made is readily equipped with the abilities to learn this stuff anytime it has an honest intention to do so.

Even Siddhartha taught Gnosis. It is all about application of what is taught. Yeshua taught Gnosis. We must apply the faith, knowledge and wisdom of these teachings.

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>that they may be encouraged in heart, knit together in love, and filled with the full riches of complete understanding, so that they may know the mystery of God, namely Christ

The Mystery of God, namely Christ; what is this Mystery?

This is what Apostle Paul says about Gnosis in Colossians;

> 3in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

In Greek, the words σοφίας kαὶ γνώσεως ἀπόkρυφοι., transliterated "SOPHIA kai GNOSIS Apokryphoi", SOPHIA Wisdom and GNOSIS Knowledge, Apockryphoi means hidden

>4I say this so that no one will deceive you by smooth rhetoric.…

These are second and third spheres on the Tree of Life, though "Knowledge" in this case is associated with "Understanding", just top show Christians that Wisdom and Understanding(Knowledge) mentioned together are references to the Kabbalah, where Christ becomes the Crown

So is Gnosticism just the lovechild of Judaism and Platonism or something?

>>1877365
debatable, it was a mix of neoplatonism, Christianity and probably some Jewish mysticism via Christianity.

Many scholars would argue it was just an alternative line of Christianity rather than a heretical sect though the lack of bishops supporting it makes this claim suspect, as apostolic succession was the basis of all Christian communities by 2nd century AD, so it would have ad to evolve almost from the beginning not to be some sort of break away sect.

>>1877358
I think your the guy with smooth rhetoric Paul warned about

>>1877365
it´s not just one lovechild but like 50 of them kek

>>1877365
Pretty much.

>>1877431
I think the smooth rhetoric Paul warns about is "Gnosis is a 'heresy' "

>See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

I believe that the church I was a part of used the fact that they were a church to suppress knowledge. It was all based on stuff carried down for hundreds of years, an empty philosophy of hiding the gnosis based off of human traditions

>>1877482
It over complicates the simple gospel messege. That's why Paul said it wasn't wise words that converts a man but the simple message of the cross, which is love.

A lot of people get Christian mysticism confused with Gnosticism.

I believe essentially everything Justin believed, including his theory of the Logos, as it fits with everything I read in the Bible.

Except I'm an annihilationist. Bout the only difference between my philosophy and his.

Unlike many religious organizations, I strongly oppose the church having anything to do with government affairs and strongly support the doctrine of non resistance.

Gnosticism, with its nonsense concerning Holy Yah, and it's overly complicated system of aeons and archons and everything else is rightly called out on its heresy by Irenaeus.

I am aware however that Irenaeus was focused on only one kind of Gnosticism as there are many other branches.

I just can't stand the kinds that try to undermine the sin atonement of Christ Jesus's blood.

>>1877522
I think people like Irenaeus, who called people heretics all day, were the true heretics.

Gnostics don't undermine Christianity. You might have some weird sects that do, but everyone has their liberties to choose. Even Christians can choose between Orthodox, Gnosticism, Protestantism, or even Catholicism, and at the end of the day, everyone is sticking to their own

Reading this thread makes it abundantly clear that there is a lot of misinformation about "Gnosticism." First off it was not one organized movement but rather an umbrella term that captured a wide variety of beliefs that shared some common elements. Probably the most common unifying theme among the various gnostic sects was a strong belief in a dualistic cosmology where matter and spirit were fundamentally separate (which obviously put them at odds with the church on the issue of the incarnation of the Logos in the person of Jesus Christ.) Some gnostics used dualism to justify hedonistic lifestyles on the grounds that it didn't matter what one with their body because the spirit could not be damaged by indulging the flesh. Other gnostics were intensely ascetic because they saw the body as a cage for their spirit and it was only through disregarding their flesh that their spirit could be set free.

Another common element of the gnostic sects was that they were very similar to Greek mystery religions in that they were hierarchical based around the amount of "gnosis" (knowledge) possessed by an individual. This meant that new believers were essentially second class and had to "ascend" by accumulating gnosis from their teachers. This was fundamentally different from the early church because although the early Christians did organize themselves hierarchically (deacons and presbyters etc...) all believers were considered equal before God. Not so with the gnostics who believed that God gave special privileges to those who had accumulated enough gnosis.

So when people talk about "Gnosticism" it doesn't tell you very much about what they mean only that they're referring to a collection of belief systems that had something to do with Jesus but were rejected by the church.

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>>1877547
Irenaeus was heretical for saying that a splintering of orthodox that claims God is evil and overcomplicates simple doctrine is heretical?

Riiiiight.

>>1877567
I'm the OP and I like your post

>>1877567
This. People like Iraneus gave gnostics a label that they did not used, grouped different sects up into that common label, not to mention the slander and persecution on them and OP has the gall to say that Gnostics are the revisionists

>>1877567
>Some gnostics used dualism to justify hedonistic lifestyles on the grounds that it didn't matter what one with their body because the spirit could not be damaged by indulging the flesh. Other gnostics were intensely ascetic because they saw the body as a cage for their spirit and it was only through disregarding their flesh that their spirit could be set free.
It is true. Many gnostics believe they can indulge in the flesh, which is where a lot of the "Lucifer" sects come in. Many Gnostics believed in self-control of the flesh for the sake of the Spirit.

Basically, Christ would teach gnosis to the disciples, the same way a guru removes the darkness from the disciples and teaches them about the spirit. You could read another sect that does a lot of extremely taboo rituals that would disturb even the most mature of persons.

It is an umbrella terms

This is a good post anon, spread this word
- >>1877567

>>1877576
I think that if someone calls someone else a heretic without full knowledge, they are the heretic, though I don't really believe that heresy is totally real, it is more of a meme. Jesus was a heretic to many people, and to others, they venerated Him highly.

>>1877603
I dunno, it's seems pretty reasonable that Irenaeus did what he did concerning a group of radicals teaching radically different things from Christ and the apostles.

Yeah, yeah I'm %100 in the right to accuse 'certain' gnostics of revising history when they're out there saying Christianity came from Gnosticism.

You got some groups that try to convince ppl Jesus wasn't even real.

>>1877102
>To show that I'm a person whose opinion should be taken seriously ill post a Facebook tier maymay

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>>1877644

>>1877638
Justify Iraneus all you want but to take his word on the Gnostics as (no pun intended) gospel instead of basing your views on primary sources (which before the discovery of Nag Hammbi there were none) just shows how ignorant you are of the concept of historical reliability

What you are upset is misinformation at best. Revisionism is a step above , which is purging any primary records that would disagree and persecuting its followers.

Again you can justify it all you want, but what Christianity did to Gnosticism is closer to revisionism that whatever you are upset about on the Internet

>>1877683
Don't blame Christianity for anything that happened to the gnostics. By the time Constantine took control of the church, Christianity ceased to be what it was.

Irenaeus may step on your toes but I highly doubt he would condone the death penalty being put on gnostics in the 4th century.

>>1877683
>Christianity did to Gnosticism
That terminology in and of itself is evidence of it, since we're identifying one specific branch of Christianity that emerged as the entire thing, and lumping together a bunch of traditions as one singular thing separate from "Christianity."

>>1877638
Many Gnostics don't teach anything contradictory to Christ. It is a journey of the self, and also there were sects that exist now that do teach things contrary to Christ.

The goal is to rely on God's help to find it all for yourself

>>1877683
Gnosticism is controversial, so it makes sense why later groups of Christianity tried to shut it down.

>>1877735
Tell me more about this journey of 'self'

>>1877715
>>1877723
I understand what you all said about the problems of labels. Maybe Orthodox?

>>1877749
Okay!

Basically, we are all an energy/soul. Every religion believes we are a soul that is a part of God's entirety (Buddhism it's a little different, though all beings have Buddha nature). We also have a physical body with the 5 senses, a mind which is the sixth sense, and the soul, which is transcendental energy separate from the ego-self.

Through education and discipline, we start a journey. This isn't the best description, but basically, there are laws / dharma gateways that can be applied to our reality so that we can use the Gnosis to benefit others, ourselves, and ultimately serve God. We learn through Christ about the Father. Even in high understanding of the wisdom, there is still plenty more to learn.

You could know every word in the Bible, but, now you could learn every word in the Bible in the language it is written in. We could know all the stories, but do we know all the allegories and deeper meanings?

The goal is to attain the Highest Union to the Absolute. It is a process, and we are always learning something new all the time. This description doesn't do the justice; also not all things are easily explained, even in person, and many teachers do it better than someone like me trying to convey this... Though it is fun trying haha

>>1877803
That's so unchristian. Ew. The wages of sin are death and one must repent and believe that Jesus's blood atones for your sin. After that you receive the holy spirit and He guides you into all Truth and you go thru a process of sanctification.

You don't need all that fancy transcendental crap. You just need to believe Jesus will change your heart and trust in the Holy Spirit to make you more like Him everyday.

Simple.

>>1877638
>For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Not all Gnostics believe in docetism; the belief Christ seemed to exist / wasn't real in flesh.

The Apostles refute it; σαρkί·is the word for "flesh" and the Apostles and disciples as eye witnesses to the flesh.

Paul even uses the Greek word "spermatos" σπέρματος of David;Δαυὶδ in the "flesh" σάρkα and the translators used "seed" and "descendant", because it was more appropriate sounding, but the reality is that Paul said Christ is the sperm of David

>>1877848
Cool. Maybe I got a few preconceived ideas about gnostics. What is the one thing that unifies most gnostics in ur opinion?

>>1877854
manicheism and catharism are good examples of what a gnostic religion would have been

>>1877832
>But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

To be set free of sin to is apply what Christ teaches us. The wages of sin is death, in other words; karma. The effect is death, and it is cause of sin. What is sin? A misdeed. God and Christ give us commandments, when we break them, we understand the consequence. Buddha gives precepts, when we fail to keep them, we notice the disturbance in our self. We know what the right thing to do is, but we avoid it.

Jesus death is what makes Him known. Jesus suffering reminds us that we suffer with Him, we all have a struggle to bear.

>But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Even this passage gives us very little information about the Holy Spirit and what it teaches us, and what it is.

>Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,

>>1877861
* a gnostic church would have been

>>1877854
It depends.

Gnostics are not always Christian; which in a sense, everyone is entitled to choose their beliefs. I don't really have an opinion on what ties "Gnostics" together, but what ties all of humanity together is that everyone is created in the image of God, all life is sustained by God's Spirit whether they accept God as real or not, and that we all have the potential to do great things for everyone around us, regardless of our religious differences. This is why I appreciate Siddhartha highly, because He teaches spirituality in a secular way, teaching liberation in the most practical sense that an atheist could slowly find their way through Sakyamuni Buddha; because through Christian teachings, it is very hard for someone to accept Christ as their Saviour with mere words. You have to teach them how to apply Christ's teachings into their daily life without condemning them, without being mean, we have to show what Christ teaches; rather than shout it. We have to accept others even if we disagree, rather than deny them Heaven within the first 5 seconds after hearing they are an atheist

>>1877862
Holy spirit is the third person of the Trinity, first appearing in early Genesis and making many other appearances through the old testament.

God is Love. Where there is love there is a lover, the beloved and the spirit of Love. If God is Love, he must be all 3 things. Father, son, and holy spirit.

Tada.

I'm really only against anything from Gnosticism that denies the atonement. Resurrection, the holy Father, or sound doctrine in general.

Karma has to do with what ur reborn as in the afterlife.

Too syncretic...

>>1877910
I think the Holy Spirit is always more than we define, same with the Father and Son. The inward meanings we find for ourselves, I guess that is the journey.
>I'm really only against anything from Gnosticism that denies the atonement. Resurrection, the holy Father, or sound doctrine in general.

That is the best part for you though or anyone else, you accept atonement, the resurrection, the Father and sound doctrine? You can always hold that true to your heart especially learning about Gnosis. I used to be discouraged because everyone says "no the gnostics believe this, the gnostics believe that" and then I realized, I believe this, who cares what an apparent majority thinks or believes? That's just my to cents, I think it's definitely important to find Gnostic teachers likeminded with very similar beliefs as opposed to a Gnostic sect you disagree with.


>Karma has to do with what ur reborn as in the afterlife.

Just to add to this, karma is also the law of cause and effect. All beings are subject to it through action, which is karma itself. Because you are cold, the action is putting on a sweater and the effect is being warm. That is karma. Or; "I'm broke I have no money" is the effect, and the cause is spending all of it on candy at the store.

Application of karma to the words; sin, death, eternal life, is that sin is negative action, death is the effect of that action, eternal life is the final state where karma is paid off (though that is a minor association, people write very large books about karma and all different kinds of applications go into it I'm still learning I'm just giving some low quality ideas and opinions I've learned along the way

>>1877937
Fair enough... I guess.

...I had another anti-gnostism meme, but I dont think your the kind of gnostic I want to use it against.

>>1877861
I Wikipediad both of those. Heretical as get out of town. Especially catharism

>>1878064
yeah there´s nothing more heretical than minding your own business

>>1878071
This thread that I started is my business, and I'm enjoying my business immensely

>>1877803
Finally someone who understands. I enjoyed your post very much. I think I have found my new board.

>>1877937
Actually, I've thought about it.

When you say you could know every word in the bible in the language it's written in, it flew over my head.

Your talking about a symbolic language, and when you speak of deeper meanings, that sent up a red flag.

What do you mean by deeper meanings?

>>1879677
I mean for little "easter eggs " like these
->>1877358
->>1877848

OR just a general sense of how much more beautiful and more sense it makes in its original Hebrew

>>1879677
As for deeper meanings, that is also part of the "journey" poorly defined in this post ->>1877803

>>1879756
If only we had the original Hebrew gospels

Papias, you teaser.

>>1879849
You know what would be awesome if they distributed more Bibles set up like the Gita that Prabhupada writes.

It has the Samskrit; then the transliteration; then tells you what each word from the transliteration means; then it has the English text; then it has a purport summary of pretty much each verse

>>1879782
There's nothing deep about polluting Christian doctrine with eastern mysticism.

People are so mentally trained to see the superficial similarities that don't appreciate the deeper differences.

You just end up with the dharma in Christian garb.

>>1877102
They have one tool. Lies. You're asking them to give up the only thing they have.

I wish they would listen to you.

>>1879881
It's called a Greek interlinear bible

>>1879986
Christianity and Eastern Philosophy have more in common. People are also more mentally trained to see the superficial differences rather than the deeper similarities.

>>1877358

I learned all I needed to know about kabbalah from the statement "Moses used the 72 names of God to part the Red Sea".

Hidden, occultist knowledge is satanic, not godly.

Godly mysteries were things once not revealed that have now been revealed, i.e. salvation was always meant for both the Jews and the Gentiles.

>>1879999
That's it? "Lies"? Where is the source for that? I think that is your opinion because you disagree with what it teaches.

>>1880009
They should print more of them

>>1880023
Show me in Eastern Philosophy where Jesus is the Creator of the world, died for the sins of mankind, and rose again on the third day.

>>1880032
It's from the bible.

1 John 2
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.

Those are your gnostic forefathers, leaving the truth for lies, powered by the spirit of antichrist, as you are.

>>1880029
I disagree.

There is more to Kabbalah than that "thing you read that one time", nothing about it is Satanic, and the information is meant to be used for the common good, such as parting the Red Sea to bring Israel to Salvation. That isn't satanic.

There are always more to the "revealed" mysteries, their is this illusion that we know everything, it is just isn't the case. It is more Satanic to tell a Christian not to look for more revelation because "don't worry, it's already been revealed, just come back to church"

>>1880056
It's all satanic.

Pharisaical Judaism is satanic. Did you not read Jesus' account of them? Den of vipers? Synagogue of Satan? Whitewashed sepulchers, clean on the outside, but inside full of dead men's bones?

>>1880034
That is where the superficial lenses will trip you up. Even in Christianity, to say "Jesus created the world, died for mankind's sins, and rose again on the third day", you are only giving the exoteric meaning, the literal meanings, rather than expand the mind and the understanding of the truth of Jesus and His wisdom.

It makes me personally upset that Christians believe they can just define Jesus' ministry to "He died and rose again that's it repent", it really is so much more than that

>>1880047
John talks about those who believe in Docetism, who denied the body of Jesus

John is a Gnostic, and the Apostles argued that Jesus was a flesh being
>>1877848
>>1877848
>>1877848

>>1880070
Pharisee Judaism isn't satanic. Jesus argued at those Jews who had religious hypocrisy, which led to His crucifixion. Jesus didn't like how they gloated their devotion for the praises of the people, not every Jewish person does this, most of them are regular people like you and me and are devoted to God.

Just because you might disagree with something doesn't mean it is actually "satanic"

>>1877358
Bullshit.


1 Cor. 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

There are 2 distant statements presented here both referring the ‘message of the cross’.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing
For the message of the cross to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

What is the message of the cross?

The message of the cross is the ‘the power of God’ to those who are being saved
- The message of the cross is able to save and cleanse and redeem; and make holy.
- Salvation is not by human might, human reason, or human effort but only by the power of God, by "Christ crucified."

The message of the cross is the ‘wisdom of God’ to those who are being saved

- It isn't human wisdom or philosophy that is able to save.
- Souls are saved only by the cross of Jesus, by Christ crucified.
- The cross means the doctrine that Christ died for sinner upon the cross
- Christ died as an atoning sacrifice for the sins of people

The message of the cross is a ‘traumatizing message’

- A brutal, awful death on that cross and one of absolute torture.
- Scourged, Beaten, Spit upon, Beard Plucked, Mocked, Nailed to the Cross

The message of the cross is a ‘simple message’

- The Bible tells us that the way to be saved is for the sinner to accept by faith
- It is not about you quitting your sins! It is about you coming to Jesus by faith!
- It's not about turning over a new leaf, but placing your faith in Jesus and Him alone

>>1880078
Yes, I prefer the truth to carefully crafted lies.

At least you admit that nowhere in "Eastern Philosophy" are such statements made, belying your earlier comment.

Which was also a lie, as is your statement that John was not condemning gnostics, and was one himself.

You are a good son to your father, the father of lies. You enjoy lying, and enjoy carefully crafted lies. Just like he does.

>>1880009
Agreed

>>1880090
It's absolutely satanic.

The satanic gospel is "take the knowledge of good and evil, do good, and avoid evil, and thus be like God."

>>1880139
This was a reply meant for someone else

>>1880107
Amen.

>inb4 Egyptian pagan origins.

Christian mysticism + eastern mysticism / Hellenistic mystery = Gnosticism

>>1880145

Too late.

>>1880107
If the message of the cross was so simple, why did you use a thousand words?

"Jesus died and rose again" that's it guys if you don't believe that "im sorry you goin to hell"

No.

Christians need to teach what Jesus teaches instead of spit out the message without the lessons and the wisdom. That is what Gnosticism aims for, to teach the word, rather than preach it.

I respect your beliefs, what you choose to believe, but there is way more hidden knowledge in the NT, and throughout all of history, and it is all worth learning. That's all

>>1880138
Well I could hand out the information about Jesus in Eastern Philosophy, but you already denied it. You have to look for yourself, no one wipes you butt crack after you poop, you do it for yourself.

I could say the same to you "nope that's a lie, oh tht? oh that's a lie" and that is all I would be doing is saying "its a lie" but without any base in reality to call it out as one.

"the father of lies" Give me a break dude, it is one thing to spend time researching Gnosticism, it is another thing to spend time "calling out the sinners on internet forums" but I used to be the same way, denying it for the sake of being "right"

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mfw i see christians worshipping the demiurge

>>1880141
So David is a Satanist?

>They do not know nor do they understand; They walk about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High.
> 7"Nevertheless you will die like men And fall like any one of the princes."…

Oh and Jesus is a Satanist too right?

>Jesus replied, "Is it not written in your Law: 'I have said you are gods' ?

It is one thing to say wee are gods, "Luxfer" is one that exalts himself over God, therefore falls lower than hell, while Jesus descends to the Earth and is lifted up into Heaven

>>1880167
Sermon on the Mount does not need 'gnostic' interpretation.

The two greatest commandments do not need kabbalah bullshit.

When you surrender to God, he gives you the Paraclete that guides you into all Truth.

The teachings of Christ are not that hard to understand, but creeping mystics want to heap upon layers of 'hidden' meaning that deviates from the point of Christ.

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>>1880174
My jimmies...

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>tfw no idea about any of this

>>1880201
It can have Gnostic interpretation though, all it means is that you are applying mystical knowledge to the sermon to learn more about what Jesus teaches; that's pretty much it.

The two great commandments is what purifies the soul to understand the Kabbalah. Even then, if it is that simple to your neighbor, why do you call him a liar?

>>1880243
Kabbalah came way after Christ. Come on man...

"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." —Jude 3,4

https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=g1fUiBLjCrU

>>1880388
It's elements are in early Judaism, it might not have been called "Kabbalah", but its essence is always there.

>>1880167
>Well I could hand out the information about Jesus in Eastern Philosophy, but you already denied it.

I told you what Christianity is; the divinity, atoning death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, God manifested in the flesh.

That does not exist outside of Christianity.

No asinine "b.b.but Jesus visited India when he was in his 20's and learned the vedas!" is going to provoke anything but sympathy.

>>1880167
>but I used to be the same way

Nobody likes traitors.

>>1880180
No, and of course your entire post makes zero sense, per usual.

See the "they" that leads off your first quote?

and "Are ye not gods?" is not a statement of fact, but pure sarcasm. You'll see the same word standing for "judges", which would be a more appropriate usage in context.

>>1880243
The Kabbalah are lies. All lies. Designed to prevent you from knowing the truth.

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>>1880449

Whatever.

Christian kabbalah = gnostic/Jesuit/satanic corruption of sound doctrine.

Nice try, heretic.

There is nothing Christian about the kabbalah. Emenations? Plz.

The Messiah being a serpent?

Come on.

(Pls bring up the bronze snake Moses set up, I double dare you)

>>1880449
Yes, satan predates Judaism. You follow satan's gospel: "use your knowledge of good and evil to be like God."

Oldest lie on earth, and you fell for it.

>>1880465
It is all about research and application.

>>1880466
Just saying I know what it's like to speak in "God's name" and everything I didn't like was "satanic"

>>1880477
We are all divine, how we use it is important

>>1880483
I disagree

>>1880484
I disagree; all of the elements of these ideas and religious philosophies tie together. God's truth is everywhere, and it is not exclusive to only one religion or one way of thinking.

>"Be as wise as a serpent and as innocent as a dove"

>>1880488
Book of Enoch pretty much clarifies the origin of the occult, but the occult is still trying to pass 1 Enoch off as gnostic which it is anything but.

>>1880488
It isn't a lie. The story unfolds beyond the very broad and simple definition most Christians will tell you but that isn't my place to tell you over a computer.

>>1880527
Yes, because it is not in the bible. Nor was it written by the seventh son of Adam.

>>1880514
On the other hand, it was prophecied in Genesis that the seed of woman would crush the head of the serpent.

So u leik selectively quoting the bible out of context? So did the serpent when he tempted Christ in the wilderness!

Wise as serpents means being able to match wits with the serpent, that's it.

Kabbalah would have us worship the serpent.

>>1880549
>"Be as wise as a serpent and as innocent as a dove"

Cleaving to God is in the Kabbalah, so is overcoming the adversary, so that we may be made clean before God so as to honestly understand the content in the Kabbalah.

A lot of the Kabbalah focuses on meditation on God, conscious expansion, and its focus is to explain the Nature of God, to show us that God is One

>>1880530

Are you daft?

Let's define what I mean by gnostic.

Having one or more elements of: demi urge theory, Docetism, and other eastern and Hellenistic mystical corruptions.

Not necessarily all forms of Gnosticism has these things.

Then there's Gods honest Christian mysticism that is not gnostic in the least.

1 Enoch is Apocrypha, and still included in the Ethiopian church and some Coptic Bibles.

It's not gnostic.

>>1880569
I correct myself.

Not all forms of Gnosticism has all those traits at once but at least one or more.

If it doesn't then it's not gnostic

>>1880569
Christian mysticism = Gnostic

Demiurge theology is not in all sects, but its main symbol is the distinction between spirit and matter. Not all sects believe in Docetism, and many of the believe in a flesh and blood Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Enoch is a Gnostic text, that is to say, that is has mystical knowledge that is relevant for the mystic

>>1880578
Bull shit and no it doesn't.

Christian mysticism is not Gnosticism.

the main difference can be summed up very easily. The difference between Christian mystics and gnostics is that gnostics do not believe in the literal death and resurrection of Jesus. They also do not believe in the resurrection of our bodies. Christians, who are also mystics, do.


1 Cor. 15:12-17


12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

In defense of Enoch

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thetruthandlight.wordpress.com/2012/08/31/re-in-defense-the-book-of-enoch/amp/?client=ms-android-boost-us

1 Enoch lacks any doctrine of demi urge, has eschatology agreeing with revelations, and has nothing to do with mysticism.

But it does have some damning things to say about certain angels and reveals the origins of demons.

In fact the book will lead one to at least one conclusion about gnostics and thier beliefs.

Those aeons are the archons.

Those aliens are demons.

Your angels of light are fallen at heart.

It's freaking obvious.

>>1880606
Everything has Gnostic elements. It is a term, not a religion.

>>1880626
Gnostics do believe in the death and resurrection, not all Gnostics are Docetism - ists

Christians mysticism is Gnostic

>>1880667
Enoch has Gnostic elements, just because the word demiurge doesn't appear, or archon, doesn't make it not Gnostic anymore, it is Gnostic because it is mystical Jewish/Christian lore, and has elements of Gnosis, for Enoch walked with God, that is Gnosis in application.

Not all aliens are demons, just like not all humans are evil, not all aeons are archons, not all archons are evil, and the demiurge is not separate from the All-Father, for it is an emanation of the All Father.

That should be very obvious.

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>OP and Christfags can't even prove or talk about gnostics' revisionism
>descends into labeling them heretics instead
In the end christfags will take every opportunity to preach and denounce.

>>1880529
It is a lie.

Humanity cannot be like God through their use of good and evil.

Evidence: All known human history.

>>1880569
>Gods honest Christian mysticism

This is a lie.

It's all lies.

Stop lying, stop loving lies, stop believing liars. You think the devil has your best interest at heart?

>>1880626
They also did not believe in the literal incarnation of Jesus Christ. They "reasoned" that God could not actually become a man, so he just became something that appeared to be a man.

If Jesus is not fully human, then Jesus does not qualify to be our kinsman redeemer.

Thus all gnostics are lost.

>>1880667
Jude quoting the Book of Enoch was almost enough to keep it out of the bible.

>>1880678
>That should be very obvious.

That you have no idea what is happening in reality is very obvious.

>>1880718
It's not. We are all originally souls inside of a body. If you are Christian, there should be no problem accepted that your soul leaves the body when you die, the idea is to cultivate the spirit soul now.

>>1880725
Many sects do believe in Jesus the same way you do.

You are memeing what you think Gnositicism is rather than what it actually is

>>1880732
I don't know why you insult the character of other people and claim to be Christian. I believe you are Christiand and I don't doubt your honest intentions, but I feel like you just hang onto anger about what you perceive Gnostics believe when really you are meme-ing; and have no actually looked into it enough.

Remember if you are a Christian and believe that Jesus lived, died, and rose again, you can still be a Gnostic. Gnostic has no definite beliefs, other than that we all can reach the divine ourselves, that is mysticism, that is gnosis.

>>1880783
So... Gnosticism is just indefinite by definition?

>>1880796
Gnosis mean knowledge; it implies that one understand the duality between matter and spirit, as well as the unity. It also means that the soul is from God, and we have the ability to rise back to our true nature in harmony with God's will.

Non-Christian sects might not agree, but in general, Christian Gnostics and non-Christian Gnostics will discuss many of the same topics without any real difficulty.

>>1880819
My issue was never with knowledge.

My issue is with all the things associated with 'classical' Gnosticism (Docetism, demiurge etc)

And also my issue is with this apparently new brand of Gnosticism that isn't Gnosticism but wants to call itself Gnosticism when it's not.

Now it's been reduced to Christianity with 'gnostic' elements. These gnostic 'elements' seem to have zip to do with any of the heretical elements irenaeus wrote about.

At least that's the impression that anon is trying to give me.

>>1880854
Christians mysticism is gnosis. You don't have to agree. Word are just words. You have a problem with Docetism and Demiurge? so don't a lot of people, all it takes is to stop worrying about what other people thing and think for yourself, be your own.

Everyone is allowed to believe what they want as long as th4ey give it practical analysis

>>1880783
Yeah, that's the problem.

>Reach divine ourselves

Christian mysticism has more to do with being in the actual presence of God, which occurs through faith, not knowledge. Once having been in that presence you might say you have knowledge of the presence and if you want to call that gnosis, that's fine.

But this is Christian mysticism.

Not Gnosticism.

At some point, Christian mystics started calling themselves gnostics. No clue why.

>>1880889
Hey, look at that!

We reached similar conclusions

>>1880900
Faith and knowledge are together they aren't anything separate.

Christians mysticism is gnostic.

Christian mysticism is knowledge

>>1880937
If faith and knowledge are the same thing then why do we have separate words for them?

>>1880952
You have to have both. Faith is good, so is knowledge, why favour one over the other

>>1880961
That didn't answer the question

>>1880971
they are together, they aren't the same, you need both

>>1880990
I agree.

But faith and knowledge under what context?

All Christians are equal under God, and no amount of knowledge will bring you closer to God compared to another believer.

But if you believe there is extra knowledge to be had to bring you closer to God, that knowledge will in fact push you further away from him.

Knowledge puffs a man up, love edifies all. That was Paul's gnosis.

>>1880773
Having a soul does not make you like God.

Being exactly like God makes you like God.

Being able to do things like, oh, for instance, speaking a universe into existence.

>>1880779
Anyone who knows Jesus the way I do is a born again Christian.

Gnostic
Born again Christian

You have already made your choice. I suggest you change your mind.

>>1880783

Because people lying about being Christians does the work of satan. They do the work of their father, and I do the work of mine.

Their father's cause is forwarded by lies. Mine is not.

>>1880819
>Christian Gnostics
Jumbo shrimp.
Military intelligence.
Alone together
Deafening silence.

>>1880889
>Christians mysticism is gnosis.

It is not.

It is epignosis.

http://mattstone.blogs.com/christian/2008/11/gnosticism-versus-christian-mysticism.html

Seems to me like Christian mysticism rejects emenations while Christian Gnosticism does not.

I think the focus here is emenationism which is a common element in kabbalah and valentinianism (to be more precise than just gnostic)

Emenations/aeons/demiurge...it doesn't matter how you cut it, it's putting a bunch of noise between the believer and creator.

The creator is always immediately right there. No emenations need to be traveled to get to know him better.

>>1881267
>http://mattstone.blogs.com/christian/2008/11/gnosticism-versus-christian-mysticism.html

You said, "I mean much of the works attributed to the Demiurge and archons serve essentially the same purpose as the Devil and demons. In fact the two seem to be the same in the early writings." I disagree and would say any resemblance is purely superficial.

The Gnostics identified the Demiurge with YHWH, not Satan. For them there was a fundamental dualism between YHWH of the Old Testament and the Father of the New Testament. They distanced themselves from Judaism and the Old Testament in a way Christian mystics never did. At it most extreme this even led them to rewrite Genesis with the snake (the Father) as the hero instead of YHWH (the Demiurge). If that's not a fundamental conflict I don't know what is. Ultimately it led them to an emanationist understanding of creation, with multiple godforms involved, rather than creation by one and only one Creator. Christians, mystics and otherwise, have always rejected such Gnostic teaching which denies YHWH and the Father are one.

Gnostics BTFO

>>1877102
>Those people are reliable
>Especially Justin who said the reason Christianity looks like other Mystery religions is because the devil knew god's plan and copied it

>>1877252
Actually Paul does mention Archons as the ones who crucified Jesus

>>1881284
>
You said, "I mean much of the works attributed to the Demiurge and archons serve essentially the same purpose as the Devil and demons. In fact the two seem to be the same in the early writings." I disagree and would say any resemblance is purely superficial.

I'm confused, I never said this. Did you misquote? I see your arguing against Gnosticism, which is good, but I dunno if you meant to direct that comment at me

>>1881373
Where does it say that?

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>>1881373

>>1881411
Rulers of this age is Archons of this aeon, I don't know how to say 'of this' in Greek

>>1881379

The entire thing but for the Gnostics BTFO is a quote from the cite above.

>>1881426
Paul was talking about the devil. The devil is the god of this world.

That does not make the devil God.

Nor does it make God the demiurge, which is fictional.

>>1881426
Ok.

Your talking bout fallen angels.

Yeah, but to be accurate, they influenced men to do it.

I thought there was some wierd gnostic text saying archons literally crucified Jesus themselves

>>1881356
Yes!

>>1881466
You can look at the text that way, since Jesus started as a revelatory celestial being

>>1881475
I'm of the school of thought that Jesus never 'started' but is the coeternal word of God made flesh.

>>1881373
In Islam it's jinn

>>1881440
The devil isn't the God of this world, Paul says it metaphroixally, don't give the devil the power to rule the world cause he doesn't exist, but people exist

>>1881208
It is the same, mystic and gnosis

>>1881466
Archons manifest through people, good Archons are angels, bad ones are demons, discern for yourself

Jesus says

>know the fruit by the tree

>>1881284
But there are schools, yhwh and the Father are one, you won't find it online thought you can only discover it through your own soul

Even if yhwh was the demiurge, God is never seperate from his creation. God is not outside of us, God is not outside of any deity, God is not outside of any demiurge. Yhwh in Kabalah is the Monad, so the Jews believe in yhwh as the One, and still can understand the demiurge the duality of yhwh

U won't find that on the internet, only though personal gnosis

>>1881267
Mysticism and Gnosis are the same, that is a website, very inferior to the realm of the Spirit

>>1881038
You need faith belief in the unknown and trusting God

Knowledge you need knowledge of God that is never outside of us

>>1881156
Paul's gnosis is beyond his writing

>>1881198
There is only one God

>>1881190
We are emanation of God, we are all originally atma, soul, Spirit soul, created by the Father. We have abilities like God because we are from Him, but we are not Almighty; but our Spirit very powerful

>>1877102
>Gnostic heretics.

Kek.
Sure, bud.