Why have American workers traditionally been more classcucked

For a while it was because he bosses were corrupt and cruel as fuck. So they rose up and fought for better treatment through unions.

Now the unions are just as corrupt as those bosses.

Have they? Why did FDR do the New Deal thing?

>>1850939

communism is a meme for upper middle class jack off to get into power by appealing to workers and under cutting their jobs. Even now, you have some middle class 20 year old whos never worked a day in his life and whos done some extensive youtube research giving HIS views on how to fix everything. Never mind that these people actually fucking hate the working class and want nothing to do with them.

I sometimes wish a real communist revolution would happen. Have a bunch of angry rednecks, excons, trailer trash, ghetto niggers, and all the other unwashed blue collar hordes marching through the streets, burning down your gated communities and raping your feminist gf while they crucify you to a telephone pole.


t. actual worker

>>1850939

Teddy Roosevelt forced businesses to improve working conditions and help out their workers more

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>>1850965
No it wasn't you stupid liar, Henry Ford figured out that he could make more money by treating the workers better and giving them shorter work weeks. Can you /leftypol/ neckbeards just stay in your containment board?

>>1851002
Henry Ford did not control 100% of the workforce. And while what he did was a godsend for that movement, there were still serious labor strifes afterward.

>/pol/
I have literally NEVER been to that board, because I don't fucking discuss politics to the same people that post traps and memes.

American workers aren't as easily swayed by populist rhetoric :^)

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>>1851014
>because I don't fucking discuss politics to the same people that post traps and memes.

Because Americans aren't actual cucks

>>1851014
Yeah there were still labour strifes, but claiming it was unions is just wrong and dishonest. They agreed to it because of seeing the success of Henry Ford.

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>>1851022

America is the only place were populism actually works

>>1850939

Define "classcucked."

Sometimes memes just make things unintelligible.

>>1851041
It is basically anybody who is not a communist/socialist.

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>>1850939
Unions are the SJWs of industry.

Workers in Britain, and I assume elsewhere, had all the rights any people could ever want. Good wages, safety measures, good work hours, then they decided to get greedy and demand more. This process caused the moving of industry overseas, losing these people stable jobs. They always seeked more "progress", even when it wasn't neccesary, and this caused them to lose everything.

>>1851041

leftypol trying to take a pol meme and make it into their own. In this case, its someone who isnt a communist

>>1851041
leftypol is desperate for producing maymays, but they loose the culture war on imageboards as the soviets lost theirs against america.
They lack dankness.

>>1850993
And you wonder why the upper class calls you barbarians.

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>>1851051
>They always seeked more "progress", even when it wasn't neccesary, and this caused them to lose everything.

ANY sort of group like this always goes too far. They never reach their goals and say mission accompished. They always have to find a new thing to bitch about, even if they have to make it up. They need a monster to defeat to justify their existence

>>1850939
The US had two red scares.

>>1850965
Unions that don't work for worker empowerment via collective ownership aren't worthwhile.

>>1851081

based on what exactly? It not conforming to some dogmatic views you hold on something you dont even understand?

>>1851022
Nah, a lot of Trump's supporters are working class

>>1850939
Probably some mixture of a belief that your children can be more successful than you and large amounts of cold war propoganda

>>1851036
Smiling while your boss skims your wages and keeps you poor is cuckoldry of the worst order

>>1851089
Unless workers control their company, it will inevitably be moved overseas

>>1851115
>it will inevitably be moved overseas

unless a certain president puts laws into action in order to make such a move impossible for the companies.

I really wish leftist would drop the "we care about the workers!" act when everything they preach is hurting them

>>1850939

In American, the class war is hidden by the race war. Poor whites are "consoled" with the fact that "at least we ain't niggers", while poor blacks are kept in line with the fear of "them good ol' boys" coming and lynching them.

>>1850993
I agree. Can't wait to kill those petit bourgeois scum.
t. Commissar Cletus

>>1851002
The Henry Ford meme needs to die.
He did it HALF A CENTURY after measures were taken, in Europe and the US(but frequently ignored in the US).
And his good treatment was nothing i'd like(i do it, but i have guys inspecting your house any moment they feel like it, to make sure you deserve it)

>>1851154
It's true though.
At a bare minimum at least we aren't fucking niggers, and fuck you for implying that we are, a concept that inevitably leads to my hypothetical daughter getting knocked up by some fucking boon because she fell for your lie that were "all the same".

Kike.

>>1850939
Our country was built on liberal economics (capitalism).

>>1851239

you know whats really creepy? In like the late 1800s, pretty much all americans were self employeed and now, hardly any of them are and its this long bureaucratic process to start your own business.

There are more monopolies now than ever before.

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>>1851051
>This process caused the moving of industry overseas, losing these people stable jobs.


>The Boss would have never outsourced the company if only natives accepted shit wages and hours. Stupid workers, you ruined everything!

Never mind that minimum wages are not universal. Why should a Brit toil and sweat for the wages of a Chinaman? Best not upset Mr. Goldstein otherwise he will move his company overseas!

>>1851266
That's why the West is declining. It can't compete with other nations.

>>1851140
Trump doesn't give a damn about workers, just look at his tax plan

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>>1851263
>In like the late 1800s, pretty much all americans were self employeed
Wtf am i reading?
That makes no sense. There were tons of workers and large companies. The only largely self-employed part of the economy that has dropped a lot has been agriculture(for obvious reasons)

>>1851237
poor whites aren't any better than poor blacks

>>1851263
yeah I'm sure the fact that the economy used to revolve around small family farms has nothing to do with most Americans being self employed. If it weren't for the paper work the average American would own a steel mill and be worth millions!

>>1851239
So was every nation state.

The very idea of the nation is inherently liberal and bourgeois.

>>1851289
But the murder rates in their hoods are lower.

>>1851289
In what sense? Poor whites in the US are historically treated far more equitably

>>1851289
Crime statistics disagree. And scholastic achievement statistics. And drug use statistics. And...

>>1851280

spoken like some bourgeois LARPer

his plan is to penalize business who move over seas

stop immigrants from flooding in and then making finding a job even harder/ undercutting their wages

and lowering their taxes


how does this hurt the worker again?

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>>1851263
Nah

About 20% of workers were industrial laborers, and tons of the agricultural workers would have been employees.

>>1851298
They aren't innately superior as the person before me was claiming

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>>1850939
1 Unions became controlled opposition during world war one have scarcely had much radicalism in them since.

2 in the modern economy people are well atomized and seldom identify primarily withtheir socioeconomic class. I say this as a poorish white. Poor people are much more prone to identify with a college football team at a university they will never attend then as a cohesive class. Or worse yet they identify with irrelevant subcultures and now with subcultures based explicitly on gender identification or whatever. As well the poorest people are often terrible stupid people who would sooner step on one of their ilks face to get momentarily ahead than try to function as a cohesive unit with shared goals. I have seen this on the street, in the workplace (when I workedshitty jobs) everywhere. Poor people probably have the shitty, callous logic of markets more firmly implanted into their heads than anyone.

3. If you aren't an idiot there is a lot of opportunity. I am a felon with a two year degree and I make more than either and likely both of my parents. Hell I make not than my girlfriend and my sister and they both have masters degrees (in education, sure). I live in the south and work for a French company and they treat me lavishly relative to any job I ever had before.

I used to be an anarchist who wanted class war, collapse, whatever in my years in that milieu. I still find capitalism to b crass and disgusting and if anything my critique of it has only deepened, however I have jettisoned the ridiculous idea thy there is a path forward to a mass society based on care bears ideals in perpetua.

Thanks for visiting my blog.

>>1851320
Under US law they were considered as such for a long time.

>>1851306
Any tax cut on the wealthy is disgusting. If the wealthy become richer and if government revenue is slashed, social services crumble and workers are comparatively poorer than their employers.

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>>1851306
Smoke and mirrors to line the pockets of the wealthy.

>>1851339

>moving the goalpost

Who gives a shit if people are richer than others?

>>1851154
They haven't been consoled by that since reconstruction. Even if they had, it would only apply to the South.

>>1851036
You are infinitely racecucked

>>1851323
good post, really like the part about identity

the fragmentation is so bad i think the idea of a revolution is truly dead and gone

>>1851360
They have inordinate power to exploit the rest.

>>1851360
>politics are controlled by money
>rich control money
>control politics
>make themselves richer

yeah no problem carry on shabbos goy

>>1851358

>moving the goalpost

this is STILL better for workers than Hillary clintons plan and is currently a workers best option which is why they support him.

Again, they dont care if your dad is going to pay less taxes, especially since they themselves are going to be paying a whole lot less as well.

democrats are the ones who want to flood the market with cheap third world labour to undercut them in the name of "diversity"

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>>1851418

again, who cares if they make themselves richer if it doesnt fuck with the workers?

Do you honestly believe in some society where everyone literally has the exact same amount of money?

>>1851409
Why dont they deserve this power?

>>1851446
>doesnt fuck with the workers
yeah everybody is doing a-okay in corporate america post 2008

youre ill mate, continue to be a fucking bitch for the bilderdorks

>>1851405
Well I am not sure if class based identity is that durable to begin with. It has not escaped me that the most robust anarch-ish types of situations have tended to occur in places where a very strong ethno-cultural, as well as ideological, bond existed amongst the participants. Thinking here of the Zapatista, Catalonia, Rojava.

Hopefully in the memetic battle, more durable identifications which bind us rather than separate us can arise after this hopefully brief period of chaos and we will be able to form a society based on something more noble than the logics of profit and exchange.

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>>1851461
>something more noble than the logics of profit and exchange.

Working at it bro.

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>>1850993

>>1851461
its one component of revolution, but a key one

definitely not, the democrats want a demographic renewal of america.

the last one was the shift from anglo majority to european majority around the turn of the last century

now its shift from white majority to hispanic plurality if the current trends continue

hate that the elites wont stop the constant growth

>>1850993
lmao love this even if i dont necessarily agree with you

>>1851449
Why do they? The burden is on you to justify's Trumps massive tax cuts on the wealthy.

>>1851480
so basically this is a long winded way of saying the jews will never let communism happen?

>>1851449
Why do they? The burden is on you to justify Trump's massive tax cuts on the wealthy.

>>1850993
Proletarians =/= the poor.

Everybody who earns a salary and may be fired is proletarian.

>>1851475
Lol I often laugh to myself about how pathetic the leftists must feel now that the greatest threat to liberal capitalism is anti-modern Islamism and not their equalitarian program which has been supposedly guaranteed by a bearded man's musings about internal contradictions.

>>1851501
>the burden is on you
Why am I burdened with the justification to not take something from someone who brought others to voluntarily generate it for him?

Even if it would be much more simpler..
Lets say we are a bunch of iron age guys in a citystate asking the wealthy to contribute to the militia.
The neccesety for the milita is the reason to take, as taking is not justified by itself as long as you dont do it by force out of egoism.

>>1851513
i dont agree with this at all

there is a small percentage of the population "the over achievers" that get extremely good qualifications and use their skills to get into the top sliver of income or stay there with inherited wealth. they're the lawyers, doctors, engineers etc. The TRUE elite give these people large wages in comparison to the working masses and they play their part in propping up the system. they are the bourgeoisie. or petty bourgeoisie perhaps if you would refer to soros types as the bourgeoisie. and its ironic because the children of these people were the only "marxist-leninists" i knew. all the working class kids i knew that were political were vaguely antifa/ancom/anarchist and just wanted to break shit. The USSR rich kid masturbaters had no idea they'd be the first to go up against the wall

>>1851459
>continue to be a fucking bitch for the bilderdorks

continue to avoid the question and move the goalpost. You are offering nothing other than "hurr rich people are bad" in some petty bullshit LARPing rant.

>>1851513

>h-hey I work at my daddies law firm to make some spending cash during the summer! Im in the same boat as some 19 year old whos doing construction and paying for a car and a house!

you will be the first one to go on the day of the rope

>>1851544
I answered the question you thick piece of shit. Maybe you're doing well in your parents basement in your gated community but americans are objectively worst off now than they were in the 50s. We nuked our industry, turned the country into a meme service industry, with the real money in finance, controlled by kikes in NYC, who shuttle between washington dc and the big apple to pull the strings of our puppet leaders. And 10% dedicated to the military industrial complex so we can continue to destroy countries, kill millions, create millions of refugees, destabilize the world, generate terrorism etc etc

they're steering the world towards a borderless corpocracy with everyone uneducated, sedated and working part time at multiple jobs for low wages and you think thats fine?


fuck you

>>1851568

No you didnt, you continue to spout meaningless marxist dogma talking points because even you realize you have no actual argument.

You arent a worker, you hate workers, you have no idea what benefits them. Fuck off with your LARP shit

>>1851568
but none of that shit can be cured with communism which OP jabbed at which is just another kind of cancer.

>>1851594
i work manual labour for 10 bucks an hour under the table lmfao i live in a shitty basement apartment with another dude why the fuck do you think im rich

>>1851602
what's your tumblr URL?

>>1851605
where are YOUR arguments? the fact that you think what i just wrote is simply marxist tripe just goes to show how inseparable your identity is from the system. you identify SO MUCH with the stability the system brings (still doing a terrible job tho lol) that you cannot recognize it as inherently exploitative

if youre not a literal multimillionaire this is sad really

>>1851480
>When class warfare begins the races and nations forget the hate and unite
That's the point.

>>1851617
>muh exploitation
Cry moar commie.

>>1851760
If youre typing this post from a yacht, you're a fucking moron.

>>1851772
*sips delicious commie tears*

>>1851780
FOB

>>1851266
>Best not upset Mr. Goldstein otherwise he will move his company overseas!
This. Classcucks think this is only natural and Mr. Goldstein is not the problem, it's those pesky workers who want a bigger cut of the pie that are the problem. Antisemitism is really just anticapitalism is a racial veneer.

>>1851002
Henry Ford hired goons to beat the shit out of disobedient workers.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Bennett

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>>1851266
terrific picture

>>1850939
because european workers had an extra 2000 years of experience on their resume

>>1851540
The rich kid larpers would probably be running shit. Most communist movements are led by conscious youth of privilege who have the dedication and necessary expertise to run the new government.

>>1851051
If the workers control their industries, this outsourcing can't happen you bootlicking fucking shit

>>1851949
their parents would be murdered in a cultural revolution type scenario, if they didnt get out in time

>>1851949
Not to mention, they'd probably reorganize to push a more orthodox "to each according to his contribution" meritocracy socialism, rather than Stalinism meme equality once they understood the implications.

>>1851958
Terror and always comes after the revolution

>>1851960
The USSR under Stalin didn't have equal wages

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>>1850939
To be perfectly fair they haven't, historically America has a great history of socialism and individualist anarchism. And in recent history it's hard to ignore the importance of Marxism in the African American struggle for civil rights.

It's just a very recent thing since the red scare when the US government cracked down on any trace of organization or class consciousness. However unlike in Europe where many countries were primed to have, or already had communist revolutions, America wasn't yet advanced enough for the proletariat to be able to organize so effectively (and unlike Russia, wasn't facing monumental disasters which only the communists seemed to have solutions to). This is probably also why American bourgies piss themselves at even the faintest whiff of class consciousness even today.

>>1852021
the american lower class are just temporarily embarrassed millionaires that are thankful for the opportunity mr shekelstein gives them to wageslave

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>>1852033
I know they are, they aren't class conscious now (and to be perfectly fair neither are the European lower class for the most part). But this isn't to say they were never class conscious historically.

Because Europe was a relatively homogenous place in each country which allowed for peace and productivity to foster while America has niggers and trailer trash. We dont want to reward them.

>america was the ground zero for several important worker's rights movements
>it got turned into a country where people are voting for a person who will bring back trickle down economics despite it shafting the american workers a generation ago.

how did this happen?

>>1852047
Russia is basically a country sized trailer park and they managed to have a communist revolution so that's no excuse.

Not to mention Cuba also has a ton of black people.

>>1852055
you're referring to clinton right

>>1852062
If you think you're not class cucked and you're even considering voting for Trump have news for you. He's literally a walking caricature of a bourgeois pig.

Not to mention dicking around with bourgeois electoral politics isn't exactly worthwhile.

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>>1852056
Why the hell would we need this? I would still rather live here in America amongst 1st world niggers and hicks then live amongst third world Ruskies. Just being honest.

>>1852073
im a jill stein supporter but the clintons are unironically architects of income inequality in america

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>>1852077
>Communists are responsible for literally every single death that happened in Russia ever.

>>1852083
>vaccines and wifi
>probably an accelerationalist

>>1852083
>muh income inequality meme

There is literally nothing wrong with income inequality, unless your whole worldview is built on envy. Economics is not zero sum, and progress is never evenly distributed.

>>1852090
My point is Communism didn't stop Russia from being a shithole.

>>1852098
That's why income should go to those with the highest multipliers and the hardest workers.

>>1850939
Class struggle is probably the biggest meme in the world, constantly spewed by pampered white ''''''intellectuals''''''

>>1852104
It did make it a bit less of a shithole though, and it became an even bigger shithole after Yeltsin JUSTed the entire place.

>>1852098
why are you okay with the middle class growing slower now than it did in the 50s? and the elite growing faster than they did back then

productivity goes up, and living standards go down, relatively

its a complete and utter sham and you've drank too much kool aid to see
>>1852095
>believing MSM smears on jillfu
full blown retard

>>1852098
>envy
Nothing wrong with this.

Your boss unfairly takes what you've created, and thanks to the violence of the state you have no choice but to accept this raw deal. You'd be crazy not to be envious that the bourgeoisie can get away with murder whilst proletariat are lucky to even get a job.

>>1852118
>why are you okay with the middle class growing slower now than it did in the 50s? and the elite growing faster than they did back then
probably because the rest of the world isn't struggling from 2 back to back wars or being rapidly and violently decolonized?
Expecting post war growth to be standard is fucking dumb.

>>1852113
But how was the Stalin regime in the past that committed mass killing of millions of its own people better than a modern Russia which doesn't do anything of that scale now.

>>1852132
youre fucking dumb

im explaining to you that we're experiencing healthy growth and that only a certain, minuscule segment of the population is feeling that

also you do realize that neo-colonialism generates more money for the west than real colonialism right? the empires collapsed because they were too expensive to maintain

>>1851501
Everytime you free up capital, it is then reinvested into enterprise rather than lining some politicians pocket. This has happened every single time since the 1900s

>>1852108
>That's why income should go to those with the highest multipliers and the hardest workers.

No, it should go to those who produce the most value. There is no benefit in rewarding someone for digging a hole and filling it in again.

>>1852118
>why are you okay with the middle class growing slower now than it did in the 50s? and the elite growing faster than they did back then

Why does someone else's gain make your gain less?

>>1852123
>Your boss unfairly takes what you've created,

What is unfair about it? You're not a slave. You work there voluntarily and negotiated your own salary.

>European workers

People who were expelled from their farms, had to move to the city and find a job to survive

>American workers

People who deliberately moved to America to find work and get enough money to buy their farm back

>>1852146
>No, it should go to those who produce the most value.
When the value you produce is only because you own something? No thanks. I'll take rewarding industrious enterprise over that.

>>1852148
Holy shit I'm sick of this. People moved to the city because it was way fucking better than living on a farm wondering if frost would kill your crops and leave you and your 8 kids and wife starving.

Everyone loves to shit talk the early industrial age and forgets what was right before it

>>1852145
Perhaps we should free up capital from those with which capital resides. Particularly those that sponsor enterprise, rather than engage in it themselves.

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>>1852164
There are many instances of peasant resistence to enclosures and evictions for that to be so simple.

>>1852136
>Talking about the USSR in general
>b-but Stalin
Why do people do this? When discussing the USA no one brings up slavery as a criticism of the entire state. When discussing the UK no one brings up Cromwell. Why? Because it's just one (if an important part) part of a long history that doesn't necessarily set the standard for discussion.

Why was the USSR in general better though? Because Russia today is an indefensible shithole. Crime is up, homelessness has absolutely skyrocketed, as has inequality. Since the fall of the USSR healthcare, education and rule of law have significantly weakened.

How isn't Russia worse?

>>1852164
The colonial Americans grew taller and lived longer than their British counterparts because their frontier lives gave them a wide variety of nutrition and their lives were physically demanding. Europeans lived in cramped, disease ridden cities where people dumped their shit buckets out their window. No sanitation at all. Only when technology and medicine advanced did urban conditions really get better than rural.

>>1852161

What does "no thanks" mean? Do you think that people shouldn't be allowed to own things? But then, you also say hole diggers should be rewarded, so with what? The smiling approval of the authoritarian regime?

>>1852146
>You're not a slave
Not quite, but not too far off either.

> You work there voluntarily a
I work there because the only other option is homelessness and potentially death. That's not exactly voluntarily.

>nd negotiated your own salary.
lol

>>1852170
Why don't you mind your own damn business you busybody piece of shit

>>1852204
That is voluntary. You can choose your fate. You can die. Or you can provide value. If you can't provide value to others, maybe you're just better off dying? You're definitively worthless

>>1852204
>work there because the only other option

There are literally millions of options, including working for yourself.

>lol

Not an argument. You agreed to exchange X (some work) for Y (some money), like any other transaction. Of nobody thinks your X is worth much, that's not anyone else's fault.

>>1852197
It means no thanks are given. In other words, the person is not thankful. Retard.

>>1851858
Comrade Corbyn, when will you send the Blairites to Siberia?

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>>1851955
They'll become less competitive, companies in other countries will provide products of a higher quality for a lower price - Unions still get fucked in the end since consumers will go elsewhere.

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>>1852216
Death isn't a choice, death is the entire thing human life seeks to avoid. If death ever appears like an option then clearly something nefarious is going on. Life is the most valuable thing you will ever get, and when something threatens it then clearly it's not a voluntary transaction. It's a war in which only one side can survive.

Class war isn't a metaphor. Property, capitalism, the state, all of these are things that need to be gotten rid of if the proletariat are to have any longevity. Meaning the police, military, class traitors and of course the bourgeoisie that uphold these institutions need to go too.

>If you can't provide value to others, maybe you're just better off dying?
I agree, which is precisely why the bourgeoisie are a pest that needs to be annihilated.

>>1852256
>life is the most important thing
>that's why we need to steal the lives of people who have more wealth than I do at this moment
Yeah real consistent you fucking retard

>>1852226
>, including working for yourself
That doesn't undermine the premise in any way as no matter what you do this will still be the reality for billions of people. Even if you become part of the bourgeoisie yourself this system is still fully in place and you haven't actually solved anything.

>You agreed to exchange X (some work) for Y (some money), like any other transaction
Yes, in the name of self-preservation. And if it wasn't for capitalism I could exchange (some work) for (equivalent compensation).

>Of nobody thinks your X is worth much, that's not anyone else's fault.
But it IS worth that much. It's just that the bourgeoisie are exploiting my surplus value and taking some off the top in order to make a profit.

>>1852189
But Russia was clearly behind the rest of the world in its quality of life and human rights. Slavery in America ended a 100 years before the time of Stalin's regime. The descendants of slaves in America now have a far better life than they would in Africa. Cromwell was 400 years before also and the casualites of his invasion of Ireland is still not proportionate with the casualities under the reign of the soviets. And I'm Irish. Russia is simply lacking behind everyone else and communism is a good ideology if you're okay with tyrants deciding where you should live and whether you're a disident, undesirable that should be exexuted. I mean just look at North Korea for christs sake.

>>1852262
Yes, fuck them. MY life matters. And their existence is at odds with mine. If one of us is going to live I'd like to think it's going to be me.

Saying
>life is the most valuable thing
Doesn't compute to holding hands and singing kumbaya. It means you have something so valuable that you're willing to kill to defend it.

Most American workers have been indoctrinated into believing that everyone who obtains success in America did so because they "worked hard" but there is a flaw in this assumption.

Most people who become very successful have opportunities laid out at their feet since birth and are part of a biased class system. Social mobility in the US is low, and simply working hard won't get you very far.

There is an entire system of class privileges that takes upper class people and manufactures them into "successful" economic elite. They were already marked out from early on to fill these roles.

The illusion of meritocracy helps pull the wool over the average american's eyes and helps to sustain the "two Americas" stratified system.

>>1852021
>>1852033
>>1852090
>>1852204
>>1852161


I wish you /lit/ fags would leave

>>1852284
Then why don't they just execute you? Hell dude I could get my family and friends to string you up and skin you alive because you're threatening our life with your nonsense middle school tier fantasy of class struggle. But we don't do that because we aren't emotional children. You're the only one advocating murder of innocent people because of all things, envy. Reevaluate your life, and your morals you misanthropic filth

>>1852291
>social mobility is low
[citation needed]

Possibly the stupidest thing I've read all day

>>1852271
>But Russia was clearly behind the rest of the world in its quality of life and human rights.
So it was. But this too was the case before socialism and after socialism. Yet under socialism was the pinnacle of Russian history.

>The descendants of slaves in America now have a far better life than they would in Africa.
Yes, but their ancestors were still slaves. I don't think they would care if you told them that being shipped to America (possibly to die on the way) and work in servitude for the rest of their life would benefit their descendants. If you're trying to argue that slavery was somehow good for the black community then that's fucking dumb. Because in case you haven't noticed black people worldwide aren't very well off.

>Cromwell was 400 years before also and the casualites of his invasion of Ireland is still not proportionate with the casualities under the reign of the soviets
You're missing the entire point, which is that zeroing in on one part of history to discredit the rest is a silly tactic.

I'm not saying "well everyone else did it so it's okay", that would also be a stupid argument. I'm trying to point out that your logic here in criticizing Stalin to criticize the entire USSR isn't exactly watertight.

> I mean just look at North Korea for christs sake.
You mean the country that disowned any association with communism.

I also advice you actually read some communist or socialist literature. If there's one country that needs communism in Europe it's Ireland.

>>1852300
Because they need the proletariat to survive. It's them who live like leeches on the backs of us and without labour they would simply starve to death.

Not to mention were shit ever to actually hit the fan and a communist revolution actually did start the bourgeoisie and their cohorts would waste no time in executing me.

> You're the only one advocating murder of innocent people because of all things, envy. Reevaluate your life, and your morals you misanthropic filth
Oh fuck off you liberal, moralfaging cretin.

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itt

Communists need physically removed from any free society.

I swear you have to be a pure retard to be a commie these days

>LTV
Disproven
>Egalitarianism
Not biologically true, used to justify why they don't deserve there station in life
>No property
Yet to meat a communist who owns guns, works out, or is capable of the violence required to steal people's shit.

It literally the poor faggot beta view of the world.

>>1852318
It's called voluntary cooperation.

Hopefully you see the light someday. Maybe get some self esteem while you're at it

>>1852303
this desu
idiot reds think wage work is their only option

>>1852325
In my experience people who harp on about the LTV in criticism of communism don't actually understand Marx's LTV let alone have actually read Capital.

>>1852327
>It's called voluntary cooperation.
It's called being a liberal and I'm too woke to go back now.

>>1852332
>too woke
Cringe

>>1852330
Ya, and I never read Adam Smith or gave a degree in Econ.

Marx and Smith were wrong. Marginal utility nigger. Deal with it faggot.

>>1851237

Case in point. Despite being a poor white, you would side with a rich white over a poor google. Who do you think benefits the most from this arrangement, you, the google, or the rich man?

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>>1852339
>He doesn't know Marx acknowledged marginal utility

>>1851388

Yes there are many other "battlegrounds" where the American rich routinely pit black against white to divert attention from themselves.

>>1852325
>there
>meat

>>1852314
How are you going to attribute the success of the USSR to communism and all of the bad shit to Stalin. It works one way or the other. Communism allowed Stalin to do the forced population transfers and send people to goolags but also the improvements. Youre just allowing communism to take the benefits of the government and disassociating it with the negative byproducts of this change. Also I'm not trying to argue that being enslaved is a good thing, just that slave descendants would probably have a better chance at succeeding in America then soviet Russia. It didnt care too much about civil rights on the disfranchised.

>>1852384
> Youre just allowing communism to take the benefits of the government and disassociating it with the negative byproducts of this change
I'm not. I'm pointing out out that you zeroing in on Stalin specifically at every opportunity is a cheap tactic that as you will notice is never deployed in the discussion of non-socialist states. I fully acknowledge the negative deeds of the USSR, it's just that you who seems to want to fixate on this one leader who wasn't even relatively recent. It just reeks of cold-war propaganda tactics.

I must also add that communism didn't allow Stalin to do forced population transfers and gulags (I'd also like to add that America still practices forced penal servitude, in greater numbers than were ever in gulags). It was being a dictator that allowed him to do that.

>It didnt care too much about civil rights on the disfranchised.
Actually it did if you notice the interest the USSR had in the US civil rights movement, as well as Lenin's (and basically every leader besides Stalin) vocal denunciation of ethnic supremacy.
.
Or, to use a much more close example. The role Castro's government had in elevating the status and conditions of Afro-Cubans.

>>1852424
But my point is Communism doesn't have a counter-active to tyrants because it is tyrannical in nature for trying to force an artificial equilibrium when humans are not completely equal. In the short time that Communism was around, it was sponsored by some pretty diabolical rulers. Russia, China, Yugoslavia, North Korea. All human rights disasters. The West knows better than to try to adopt an ideology that seeks to set ceilings on peoples luxuries, needs, and rights. America has the highest prison population because mainly poor blacks and hispanics. They cant really integrate well into society because most of them live together in same shitty neighborhoods where crime is rampant. I think Blacks by far are genetically more prone to criminality than whites which is why its dangerous for Whites to live in areas with Blacks. "We're going to do for blacks exactly what blacks did for the revolution. By which I mean: nothing." What che had to say.

>>1852325
Marginalism doesn't disprove LTV though. LTV describes macro equalibriated supply and demand in a market economy. The reason why marginalism is embraced is because it explains prices even on a micro level, and it explains prices even when markets are at a non-equilibrium state, making it more useful in practice.

>>1852346
Ok sweet. So now we can agree that capitalist are not stealing surplus value and we don't have to steal shit because of inherent inferiority and envy.

>>1852559
How does marginalism disprove surplus value in any way shape or form?

>>1852563
because the value of a good is not based on labor. Its based on supply and demand.

Everything is worth what the purchaser will pay.

>>1852572
You clearly don't understand what LTV is about, or what surplus value is.

>>1852572
>sur·plus val·ue
>noun: surplus value
>(in Marxist theory) the excess of value produced by the labor of workers over the wages they are paid.
How does marginalism disprove surplus value in any way shape or form?

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This could have, in a better world, been a thread wherein anons posited and waxed anthropological, historical about why things have turned out as they have. However it has become another tired argument about the merits of Marxism with people arguing past each other without even sharing a common lexicon. I know a lot f you are mad that some on was wrong on the internet but in the future I you find yourself goaded into an unwinnable argument with an ideologue who is just as sure (and boorish) as you, please refrain.

>>1852548
I encourage you to actually read some communist literature, even something as brief and basic as the manifesto because you don't seem to know very much about communist ideology. Communism isn't about forcing everyone to be equal in every way, communism chiefly is about affording everyone an equal opportunity in life via worker ownership of the means of production. You may point out that in the USSR the workers didn't own the means of production as it was a planned economy controlled by the state. But this is the point at which you should realize that as is the case with all states grounded in an ideology their actual implementation of that ideology varies such as how America is supposed to be all about freedom yet it has the highest incarceration rate on the planet.

To refer to Cuba you may notice that their incarceration rate pales in comparison to that of America despite having a comparable black percentage of the population as well as literally being Hispanic. Minorities can very well integrate into society, if you ever take a look at a list of countries by homicide rate you'll notice that black countries like Burkina Faso or Madagascar actually have very low homicide rates, much lower than that of white countries like Russia or Lithuania. Because crime and poverty aren't just as simple as social Darwinism, black people aren't genetically predisposed to being criminals any more than Slavs are. America clearly has an institutional racism problem These countries in Africa are by no means rich or developed, significantly less so than the United States. Yet the fact that incarceration rates and murder rates in these examples is so low yet in America it's so high makes it glaringly obvious that there's more at work here than just "blacks are violent".

Finally.
>"We're going to do for blacks exactly what blacks did for the revolution. By which I mean: nothing." What che had to say.
Which is precisely why he went to Africa to fight for socialism I assume.

>>1852559
Read Capital and find out.

I'll give you a hint though, you won't find just one absolute notion of value.

>>1852619
>saying anyone should read only CM
pls no

> You may point out that in the USSR the workers didn't own the means of production as it was a planned economy controlled by the state. But this is the point at which you should realize that as is the case with all states grounded in an ideology their actual implementation of that ideology varies such as how America is supposed to be all about freedom yet it has the highest incarceration rate on the planet.
oh shit its an unironic tankie praise stalin no gulag pls

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>>1852631

Yeah no thanks Kapital is unreadable trash. Even the USSR abandoned the notion of the LTV, it's beyond ridiculous to find '''people''' defending it even to this day.

>>1852635
I'm not saying he should just read the manifesto. I'm saying he should read literally anything even as basic as the manifesto.

>oh shit its an unironic tankie praise stalin no gulag pls
Literally how was that being a tankie?

Seriously, it's ridiculous how dumb leftist opinions on the USSR has gotten. It's entirely be possible to be both critical of the USSR and acknowledge its accomplishments. You don't have to be 100% tankie or 100% anarchist.

>>1852638
>In a primitive society, the amount of labor put into producing a good determined its exchange value, with exchange value meaning in this case the amount of labor a good can purchase. >In a more advanced society the market price is no longer proportional to labor cost since the value of the good now includes compensation for the owner of the means of production: "The whole produce of labour does not always belong to the labourer. He must in most cases share it with the owner of the stock which employs him."

>>1852638
>Yeah no thanks Kapital is unreadable trash
Translation: "I don't have the attention span to read it but I'll keep insisting that somehow I know why it's wrong".

>>1852646
>the ussr was actually socialist even though it didnt even remotely fit the primary definition of socialism
tankie pls

>It's entirely be possible to be both critical of the USSR and acknowledge its accomplishments.
Neither or which have anything to do with pretending that the USSR was actually socialist

>You don't have to be 100% tankie or 100% anarchist.
For example, you could say that state ownership in an autocratic government disqualifies state ownership from being socialism, and only in a democratic government can state ownership mean socialism

>>1850939
Americans have a greater respect for authority figures, not to mention the Bible Belt retards who hate big government but sing endless praises about muh troops.

>>1852678
And white people that hate Jews because they're capitalists

>>1852655
>tankie pls
Did I not point out that in the USSR workers didn't own the means of production?
Was what I said not that the USSR was grounded in socialist ideology rather than that it was socialist in practice?

It's just bad reading comprehension to read this
>You may point out that in the USSR the workers didn't own the means of production as it was a planned economy controlled by the state. But this is the point at which you should realize that as is the case with all states grounded in an ideology their actual implementation of that ideology varies such as how America is supposed to be all about freedom yet it has the highest incarceration rate on the planet.
as this
>USSR was totes socialist

Is America free? No. Was the USSR socialist? No.
Did they both however ground their ideology in those concepts? Absolutely, which is the entire point I was making.

>>1852324
Not an argument

/pol/: The Thread

>>1852688
> But this is the point at which you should realize that as is the case with all states grounded in an ideology their actual implementation of that ideology varies such as how America is supposed to be all about freedom yet it has the highest incarceration rate on the planet.
The USSR may have been based on socialism. It may have been the closest thing to big industrialized socialism. But it wasn't socialism and that had nothing to do with "muh implementation" apologetics. The USSR actively suppressed, and purged actual socialists who wanted to form a government that actually fit the definition of socialism rather than just paying lip service and using it as propaganda.

America is freer than the USSR was socialist. For the most part I have certain guaranteed and protected rights, which for the most part, are actually upheld. Dumb tankie.

>>1852718
>America is freer than the USSR was socialist. For the most part I have certain guaranteed and protected rights, which for the most part, are actually upheld. Dumb tankie.

>America
>Free
>Actually upholding rights

Trots/anarchists/leftcoms once again proving themselves to be reactionaries.

>>1852734
>this what tankie actually believe
>everyone is a reactionary or revisionist but me

Next you're going to tell me how the DPRK is democratic, the people's and a republic, and dig up some really cool quote by glorious leader, and all it's shortcomings are just "m-muh implementation" Tankie be gone.

>>1852299
If you want a hugbox just stay on /pol/

>>1852760
I love the way I explicitly said that the USSR wasn't socialist yet you continue to piss yourself over this.

The mentioned schools of thought in my experience are by far and away the most moralfagging, shrill and counter-revolutionary demographics known to man. I've never had a 100% "Hoxha is my hero support ISIS against imperialism" tankie start throwing a fit because I said something positive about Catalonia. It's always fucking leftcoms and such that start this shit.

Christ, if they were like this 100 years ago too I can't blame the USSR for Kronstadt.

>>1850939
Yes, over time they've had less gov't help with issues with their employers, and when changed happend it took years and was and still is poorly enforced.

>>1852779
You didn't explicitly say the USSR wasn't socialist. What you actually said was:

>you may have a counter argument to this but it's actually just differences in implementation

Dumb retard tankie.

>>1852797
> Was the USSR socialist? No.
-me less than half an hour ago in a post to you.

Fucks sake, can you not even read?

>>1852805
That's only after being confronted about it because you were forced to admit that it wasn't actually socialism, despite your Soviet initial apologeitcs. And even then you tried to preject about 100% anarchism and pretend rights don't actually exist in America. And America isn't even a freedomocracy or freedomism. You're just a tankie in denial.

>>1852821
>But this is the point at which you should realize that as is the case with all states grounded in an ideology their actual implementation of that ideology varies such as how America is supposed to be all about freedom yet it has the highest incarceration rate on the planet.
-me, before you showed up.
What's the obvious subtext? That America isn't free and the USSR wasn't socialist?
Of course since your reading comprehension is literally pre-school level you cannot comprehend a point unless it is spoonfed to you.

> pretend rights don't actually exist in America
Well they exist for rich people you fucking undialectical reactionary.

>And America isn't even a freedomocracy or freedomism
You're right, it's liberal democracy. "Liberal" as in "liberty" that being synonymous for "freedom".

>>1852838
>What's the obvious subtext?
No, the subtext is that of false equivalence. That America can only be considered free if the USSR is considered socialist, and if you don't consider the USSR socialist, America isn't free. Dumb tankie.

>Well they exist for rich people you fucking undialectical reactionary.
They exist for poor people, even black people. It may not be perfectly egalitarian, and not everyone may be completely equal under the law or protected by it, but yes, even poor black people generally are able to exercise many of their rights, such as not being slaves, having free speech, and voting, the vast majority of the time without being shot or incarcerated.

This is different from say the USSR where there was pretty much no meaningful worker control over industry, and the Supreme Soviet was controlled entirely by the CPSU, and essentially just a rubber stamp.

You project about 100%ism, but it seems you're the one having trouble seeing the gray area.

>You're right, it's liberal democracy. "Liberal" as in "liberty" that being synonymous for "freedom".
No, there you go trying to make up definitions for your Soviet apologetics. You know damn well liveral democracy has an actual definition that is not "hurr durr 100% freedom"

>>1852866
>. That America can only be considered free if the USSR is considered socialist, and if you don't consider the USSR socialist, America isn't free
This is why you're a dumbass. Clearly I was a drawing a comparison between two states that failed to fully uphold their ideological underpinnings.

Lets assume that I am a tankie for a second. Would a tankie say America is free? Absolutely not. Therefore the comparison would make no sense if I was also saying the USSR is socialist. What was a saying? That America is not free, nor was the USSR socialist. As I explicitly explained to you a few posts ago, you thick cunt.

>such as not being slaves,
Unless they're in prison. Which disproportionate amounts of them are.

> having free speech,
Unless the state changes their mind as they're want to do.

> and voting,
Which means exactly fuck all in bourgeois democracy.

> the vast majority of the time without being shot or incarcerated.
Except when they are shot or incarcerated and the state gets off with impunity.

>, but it seems you're the one having trouble seeing the gray area.
Yet you are still throwing a fit over me saying positive things about the USSR. The way you insist on absolutely disowning the USSR is exactly the kind of tactic reactionaries love to use.

>This is different from say the USSR where there was pretty much no meaningful worker control over industry, and the Supreme Soviet was controlled entirely by the CPSU, and essentially just a rubber stamp.
How many times do I need to tell you that I never said the USSR wasn't socialist?

At this point are you criticizing the USSR (because we seem to be on the same page on how socialist it was) or are you praising America? Because it's starting to seem a lot like the latter.

> You know damn well liveral democracy has an actual definition that is not "hurr durr 100% freedom"
No, but liberalism is the actual proper term for "freedomism" which is the point I was making.

>>1852889
>This is why you're a dumbass.
No, that's how you set it up.

>Clearly I was a drawing a comparison between two states that failed to fully uphold their ideological underpinnings.
>fully
And you were unironically projecting 100%ism a few posts ago.

>Lets assume that I am a tankie for a second. Would a tankie say America is free? Absolutely not.
Thinking is not a tankie's strong point

>Therefore the comparison would make no sense if I was also saying the USSR is socialist. What was a saying? That America is not free, nor was the USSR socialist. As I explicitly explained to you a few posts ago, you thick cunt.
You are still pushing a fall equivalence, and you implies that the USSR's accomplishments were somehow related to socialism.

>Unless they're in prison. Which disproportionate amounts of them are.
Disproportionate. There's a difference between disproportionate and widespread. There are ~1 million incarcerated blacks out of ~40 million blacks. Or about 2.5%. I'm not making any judgement calls on whether that's acceptable or unacceptable. What is true is that just because it's disproportionately high doesn't mean that 97.5% of blacks aren't in jail.

>Unless the state changes their mind as they're want to do.
Dumb delusional tankie.

>Which means exactly fuck all in bourgeois democracy.
Double dumb delusional tankie.

>Except when they are shot or incarcerated and the state gets off with impunity.
Which is a very small minority of cases.

>Yet you are still throwing a fit over me saying positive things about the USSR. The way you insist on absolutely disowning the USSR is exactly the kind of tactic reactionaries love to use.
No, it's because you implied that the USSR was somehow related to socialism, which is why you brought it up, then you backtracked and said it actually isn't socialism, and now you're trying to push your apologetics by saying America isn't really a liberal democracy. Dumb tankie.

>>1852889
>How many times do I need to tell you that I never said the USSR wasn't socialist?
You implied it in the beginning, or at least that it was somehow representative of socialism, and it's deviation from socialism was just an issue of implementation.

>At this point are you criticizing the USSR (because we seem to be on the same page on how socialist it was) or are you praising America? Because it's starting to seem a lot like the latter.
It's contrast you dumb fuck. You unironically believe in your false equivalence. American can be said to be a liberal democracy with shortcomings and not perfect. The USSR can't be said to even vaguely fulfill the definition of socialism except being anticap and paying lipservice.

If you really thought they were equivalent, then then a USSR that was as socialist as America is free would, for the most part the workers elect soviets that represent them and their interests, but sometimes, there's a lingering bourgeois influence, mostly among rich Jews, who have disproportionate influence. But that's not the case. Workers did not have control over the state for the most part or the majority of the time.

>No, but liberalism is the actual proper term for "freedomism" which is the point I was making.
And America isn't a liberalism. It's a liberal democracy. Just like social democracy isn't socialism.

Dumb tankie.

>>1852921
>No, that's how you set it up.
>And you were unironically projecting 100%ism a few posts ago.
>Thinking is not a tankie's strong point
Not arguments.

>USSR's accomplishments
Here's the thing about the USSR being grounded in socialist ideology. The USSR is like it or not intrinsically intertwined with socialist history, it is almost impossible to make a statement on the development of socialism without addressing the USSR. So yes, the USSR and it's accomplishments are related to socialism.

>There's a difference between disproportionate and widespread.
But it is disproportionate, African Americans are around 10% of the US population yet 40% of the prison population. This is both disproportionate and unacceptable.

>Dumb delusional tankie.
>the USA has never changed it's mind on what speech is acceptable and oppressed dissenting opinions and demonstrations.
lol
>Double dumb delusional tankie.
>Bourgeois democracy is any more than a token gesture from the ruling class.
At this point I don't even believe you're a socialist, you seem like a conservative pretending to be a socialist.

>Which is a very small minority of cases.
Actually it isn't. Black people getting shot by cops who then get away with it is almost a weekly occurrence.

>then you backtracked and said it actually isn't socialism,
I didn't backtrack, I fully acknowledged it's not socialist from the start. You are just so much of an argumentative pedant that if a point you originally didn't understand is explained to you later you confuse that explanation for an admission of being wrong. It's not, you're just a dribbling moron.

Not to mention yes, I am pushing Soviet apologetics. Because contrary to your assbackwards pseudo-leftist beliefs the USSR wasn't all bad. Apologetics aren't a bad thing.

>America isn't really a liberal democracy
Literally what?
I explicitly said America is a liberal democracy a couple of posts ago.

>>1852638
I wish this picture was true

>>1852942
>You implied it in the beginning,
No, you (wrongly) inferred it. It's important that people understand this distinction.

>It's contrast you dumb fuck
More like defending the USA like a fucking reactionary. For all you harp on and piss yourself about how bad the USSR you seem to have nothing but good things to say about America. Going as far as trying to excuse institutional racism and the absolute shitshow of bourgeois democracy (which any socialist worth their salt in theory should recognize as an absolute sham).

>It's a liberal democracy. Just like social democracy isn't socialism.
>liberal democracy is to liberalism what social democracy is to socialism.
Oh god, you're retarded. Liberal democracy is a system of government derived from the ideology of liberalism. Likewise you could say that a worker's republic is a system of government derived from the ideology of socialism.

Social democracy is an ideology in itself.

Go back to /pol/ and try new tactics, you reactionary.

>>1852963
>But it is disproportionate, African Americans are around 10% of the US population yet 40% of the prison population. This is both disproportionate and unacceptable.
>i lack reading comprehension and am only going to quote half of the point made

>Actually it isn't. Black people getting shot by cops who then get away with it is almost a weekly occurrence.
Out of 40 million

>I didn't backtrack, I fully acknowledged it's not socialist from the start.
>I explicitly said America is a liberal democracy a couple of posts ago.
See, you're not even arguing anything anymore, you're just moving the goalposts. What was even the point of comparing the non-socialist USSR's (non)implementation of socialism to liberal democratic America's implementation of liberal democracy? You're just being a tankie in damage control mode.

>Not to mention yes, I am pushing Soviet apologetics. Because contrary to your assbackwards pseudo-leftist beliefs the USSR wasn't all bad. Apologetics aren't a bad thing.
t. tankie

>>1852997
>>i lack reading comprehension and am only going to quote half of the point made
>I have no argument.

>Out of 40 million
Who are being shot regularly by the state with impunity.

>What was even the point of comparing the non-socialist USSR's (non)implementation of socialism to liberal democratic America's implementation of liberal democracy?
Because a long time ago now I was making a point about what communism is actually all about, whilst also making a quip about the USA that followed into my next point about institutional racism.

You should know, you've read it.
>>1852619

>>1852991
>No, you (wrongly) inferred it. It's important that people understand this distinction.
You tried to set up a false equivalence, and even now you're backtracking from it.

>america was a little bad so its okay is the ussr was really bad!
Nice tankie apologetics. Honestly, if you weren't a retarded Ivan and actually knew anything about America, you should have cried civil rights movement which was only in the 60's. But as far as you're concerned, declaring America evil requires no critical thought for you.

>Going as far as trying to excuse institutional racism and the absolute shitshow of bourgeois democracy (which any socialist worth their salt in theory should recognize as an absolute sham).
And you seriously had the nerve to project I was a 100%ist before.

>worker's republic is a system of government derived from the ideology of socialism.
Hurr.

>Go back to /pol/ and try new tactics, you reactionary.
>everyone i disagree with is a reactionary
Sounding a bit like /pol/ there yourself tankie.

Fucking disgusting tankies.

>>1853012
>>I have no argument.
I had an argument. You decided to not quote it and not address it. Not my fault.

>Who are being shot regularly by the state with impunity.
At a rate of how many per week?

>Because a long time ago now I was making a point about what communism is actually all about
USSR was magical fairlyland without exploitation. Right.

>Because a long time ago now I was making a point about what communism is actually all about, whilst also making a quip about the USA that followed into my next point about institutional racism.
So you really are a tankie.

>>1851425

Americans never thought this.

>>1853013
>You tried to set up a false equivalence, and even now you're backtracking from it.
You made this same argument earlier so I'll give it the same reply.

>I didn't backtrack, I fully acknowledged it's not socialist from the start. You are just so much of an argumentative pedant that if a point you originally didn't understand is explained to you later you confuse that explanation for an admission of being wrong. It's not, you're just a dribbling moron.

>america was a little bad so its okay is the ussr was really bad!
Saying good things about the USSR doesn't compute to excusing the USSR of any bad thing it did. I love how in your next point you try to claim you're not a 100%ist after doing this.

Not to mention America is far more than just a little bad. As any actual socialist should know.

>Hurr.
>Worker's republics aren't grounded in socialist ideology
Fucking retard.

>>1851039
>he hasn't seen early 20th century Europe
kek

[spoiler] Unless you're talking about the present, in which case you MIGHT have a point. [/spoiler]

>>1853044
And the point from the start was that you're a tankie, which you initially tried to deny. It's pretty clear you're a tankie now. The only reason any of this other stuff was brought up was because you tried to deny being a tankie, and it's great that you argued in a circle and think you won the little arguments, all while fully expressing your tankie nature, because you know no one likes a tankie, and the only thing you can do is call non-tankies reactionaries.

>>1853029
>I had an argument. You decided to not quote it and not address it. Not my fault.
Because the rest of your post was irrelevant.

>At a rate of how many per week?
Hmm, lets see. In 2015 over the entire year they killed 1,134 black dudes. With 52 weeks in a year that comes out at about 21.8 black dudes a week.

>USSR was magical fairlyland without exploitation. Right.
Oh
My
God

How many times do I need to explain that I'm not uncritical of the USSR? Christ, is your head just so full of liberalism and ideology that your short-term memory has collapsed.

Not to mention this is the post where I make the point that in the USSR workers didn't control the means of production.

>So you really are a tankie.
You really do have no reading comprehension.

It's easy to prevent workers forming Unions when you import a bunch of foreign immigrants who don't know the language and are desperate. Seems like more cultural homogeneous populations tend to emphasize more with other workers, and support them more often.

>>1851110
We don't smile about it, though. If the unions weren't a bunch of incompetents, American workers as a whole would gladly and eagerly fight for better wages. They're not nearly the mindless sheep foreign (and hell, domestic) intellectuals make them out to be.

>>1853055
I'm strongly critical of the United States and don't totally disregard the USSR.

What a tankie I must be with opinions like that right?

> and the only thing you can do is call non-tankies reactionaries.
That's because you are a reactionary, I was half-joking at first but it's since become clear that I was right.

>>1853071
>Because the rest of your post was irrelevant.
It included your response to it.

>Hmm, lets see. In 2015 over the entire year they killed 1,134 black dudes. With 52 weeks in a year that comes out at about 21.8 black dudes a week.
Out of 40 million. And it really doesn't matter because you gave up on your false equivalence, and are no longer trying to defend it.

>How many times do I need to explain that I'm not uncritical of the USSR?
Yet you refuse to actually lay down criticism besides admitting it isn't socialism. And when I make counterpoints you accuse me of being a reactionary and I have only good things to say about America.

>You really do have no reading comprehension.
t. tankie

I bet you can't even say one mean thing about Stalin without bursting into rage and tears

>>1851051
Labor all comes down to negotiation regardless. There's plenty of areas (like power, plumbing, law enforcement, nursing) which are domestically safe and can't gt exported, and it's rational for Unions to negotiate in such circumstances.
>>1851226
He also had a very high turn-over rate.

>>1853080
Yes, you sound exactly like a tankie.

>>1852033
>believing this stupid ass quote
>2016

Many lower class Americans are well aware of the odds stacked against them. Capitalism still allows them some comforts, so they grudgingly go along.

>>1850939

America is less urban, and thus, less degenerate.

>>1853092
>It included your response to it.
It didn't though. The rest of the post was about how most black people aren't in jail.

>Out of 40 million.
This argument is really dumb. No matter how big the rest of the population is 21 a week is an absolutely outrageous rate of deaths caused by the police.

>And it really doesn't matter because you gave up on your false equivalence, and are no longer trying to defend it.
Literally what?
You made a question and I answered it. Did the answer have some subject matter not-included that you would rather was?

>Yet you refuse to actually lay down criticism besides admitting it isn't socialism. And when I make counterpoints you accuse me of being a reactionary and I have only good things to say about America.
Yes, because you haven't laid down any criticism of America and you seem fully interested in defending it at any point I do.

>I bet you can't even say one mean thing about Stalin without bursting into rage and tears
Stalin was a nasty man who ruined democratic centralism and tried to oust Tito.

I don't think I said anything positive about Stalin at any point ITT.

>>1853104
>>>/CPUSA/

>>1850939

The working class always opposes leftism. The very upper and lower classes support leftism, because the rich never actually pay taxes.

>>1853130

You're a trot.

>>1853140
I'm pretty sure Trots don't like Tito.

>>1853161

Yes they do. You're a gigatrot. Grow some balls

>>1853165
Tito certainly didn't like Trots.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/tito/1939/x01/x01.htm

>>1853170

Doesn't matter because you're a trot and you're trying to justify it.

>>1853174
Wouldn't that make me a Titoist rather than a Trotskyist?

>>1853170
>Tito drank the kool-aid that hard
wew

>>1853077


Gotta stir the pot every once and a while

>>1853165
You are fucking annoying. Stop posting.

>>1851480
I'm a Communist, a worker, and I don't have a college degree. Sadly most Communists are socially retarded shit bag kids with three genders, just like how most Trump supporters are dicks with no real intelligence. Kinda ruins the ability to have an intelligent argument.

>>1851480
Doesn't this prove the capitalists actually do control everything?

>people have different amounts of money than you
>therefore, you are a cuck
The lefty argument summed up

>>1853384
>the jew earned his money fair and square
>therefore, you are a cuck

>>1853389
>muh Jews
It's funny when leftypol tries to extend an olive branch out to pol by throwing the Jews under the bus in the hope pol will become "class conscious".

>>1853029
You realise that you can appreciate the Soviet Union without condoning its imperialism and repression?

>>1853988
You realize you can show that the USSR was not as bad as US propaganda says it was without being a tanky?

>>1853170
Nobody likes Trots

Guys I have your reason: Because Henry Ford funded the Bolsheviks in exchange for control of Russian oil

>>1853993
That's what I just said.

>>1850939

Because they realized that socialism is for people who have nothing to lose, and overthrowing the system will only lead to a miserable, totalitarian hellhole.

>>1852189
>When discussing the USA no one brings up slavery as a criticism of the entire state
yes they fucking do

>>1850939
By "classcucked" you mean sensible and not completely and utterly retarded, correct?

>>1850993
Fucking this.

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>>1850993
I hope this doesn't happen, I don't have the fucking time to go around burning things and raping women. I've got a job to get ahead in so I can get my mother some medical care.

Why does this thread always happen. If Marx is correct we will inevitably end up in a classless, stateless society and if he wasn't we will just have these internet arguments until Kingdom come. My advice to commies is to put down the keyboard and get to work. That is literally your only hope for convincing those pigheaded holdouts that doubt still that a 19th century german guy had it all figured out in regards to economic and cultural evolution.

>>1852077
>estimated

We don't need shitty estimations when we have the archives.

Deaths that can be linked to the state in the entire Stalinist period don't exceed 700,000, with 100,000 being deaths in the Gulags (where the majority of them occurred during the second world war due to a lack of resources) and the 600,000 executions ordered during the purge. However the number is likely to be much less than that because the majority of people sentenced to execution were eventually pardoned since the order to root out potential traitors could only be undertaken by three man troikas and had to be done so with speed. From a sample of a few thousands it was found that only 30% of those set for execution were actually executed.

>>1851949
>Most communist movements are led by conscious youth of privilege
Only an incredibly tiny minority of conscious youths of privilege, the rest would be driven out, killed or spend the rest of their lives tending to their impoverished stagnant community and seeing little progress.

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>ctrl-f
labor aristocracy

hmm

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To whichever anon started this thread, you have found a perfect way to sequester /pol/ refugees and preserve the integrity of the discourse and memes of surrounding threads. May your sacrifice never be forgotten.

>>1854709

What happened to pol? New mods or something?

>>1852270
>But it IS worth that much

Oh really? Then refuse to do it unless you're paid what it is worth. Simple enough. But they'll just hire someone else to do it for less, then, you say? Well I guess it wasn't worth what you thought.

>>1851358
>implying that people with 15 600 a year would welcome another 250
Well, as long as the services won't be worse, you gotta be a real fanatic to think that it's a bad thing.

>>1852648
Top fucking kek.

Sorry nigger, but the value of shit is not based on labor, never had, never will be.


Labor can put a strain on supply which can raise the price, but it does not raise value.


If you have two identical goods but one took 10 times more labor guess what? The are still worth the same on the market.

You pinkos need a job. I get "exploited" for $22.50hr to browse 4chan with you dumb niggers.

>>1851955
>hurr durr I don't understand economics

>>1854714
Pinkos even get BTFO by the retards on /pol/ . For sane reason they think smarter boards might listen to there drivel.


/lit/ used to have a problem with pinkos as well.

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>>1854861

>>1854941
>Implying communism isn't a religion

Hmm... Let's see

>Egalitarianism, every is equal and deserve s equal compensation

You have to be dumber than your average Chirstcuck to believe that shit. Egalitarianism is disproven through daily observation, biological and history. It just more muh feelings shit.

>Dialectics
End if the world! The great prophecy that evil capitalism will fall. Then it will be heaven on earth.

Communism is a religion for Fedoras who are at the bottom of society. A religion of justified envy.

Physically weak. No good job, degenerate life style, no wife and children.

If course they believe this shit, it's all the have. To Larp killing and imprisoning the rich Chad's who had it all. It's envy and revenge.

labor theory of value is false, communism is logically incoherent, even if you care about the purported goals of communism you should abandon it

>>1855018
This. Stateless is unnecessary and too utopian.

>>1851052
Wow another commie taking someone else's hard earned meme's and trying to make it their own out of it. I wonder how it'll work out this time!

>>1855069
Being able to vote and not be murdered by your government is nice

>>1850939
Organised Labour wasn't respected as an entity up until just prior to WWI - the Sherman Antitrust Act making them illegal. It wasn't until the establishment of the National War Labour Board that Unions were respected as entities - which itself only lasted until 1919.

Unions weren't regarded as being representative of workers well up until the New Deal, which was only reversed with the National Labour Relations Act of 1935. Same can be said of collective bargaining.

However, a lot of the gains made by Labour during WWI and WWII were reversed either by legislation, or by the emergence of a non-industrial US economy (from white to blue collar).

That's not to say that Americans never aimed to unionise, however. Nor that there weren't substantial union membership rates in certain periods (reaching 30% of the workforce during WWII). The Pullman and Homestead strikes indicate as much.

There has - however - been a more anti-socialist, but specifically communist political culture throughout US history - perhaps due to its liberal origins. Or maybe its their lack of influence from continental European political and philosophical thought.

However, you could go ahead and just blame the Taft-Hartlet Act, Raegan, and other pieces of legislation. I'd say they're big factors, but ultimately if you want something, you have to strive for it.

>>1852778
>/his/ needs to be a SJW hugbox
Fuck off leftypol

>>1855405
You're literally complaining about being exposed to views that contradict your own

>>1855178


>Being able to vote is nice

Absolute plebeian

>>1851480
>US importing food

I agree with the general point, but the idea that the U.S. couldn't easily feed itself several times over is just retarded.

>>1850939

>falling for the LTV meme
>ever

Like how idiotic do you have to be to believe that socially necessary labor determines value?
Have you ever bought a pair of nikes?

>>1853037
Except that's literally what the American Dream is?

>>1855497

The american dream is not about becoming a millionaire, it's about achieving middle maybe middle-upper class lifestyle.

>>1850939
While they had/have it comparable bad, they have/had periods were they had leaders that remembered that they were serving all their people and not just a few rich fucks.

But as neoliberalism has pretty much conquered the western world, those days are gone.

>>1855514

That's some low-rent "dreams" you have their pal. The American Dream is that anyone can make it rich in America, if they just try hard enough.

>>1855490
LTV doesn't work in monopolies. That's that's why lots of people feel nikes are overpriced garbage, rather than a fair price. LTV is also about competitive market prices, where there is a standard clearing price and no price discrimination etc. Marginalism is just micro pricing, it works in all those situations, including non competitive market economies.

>>1854976
Chill down, read about the shit you try to critizise.
You end up disproven regarding your post. But at least you are not looking like a child throwing shit around.

>>1850939
>start to organize a strike with your union
>boss hires thugs to beat you up
>imports a couple hundred illiterate Italians and Slavs to take your job

Would anime exist under communism?

>>1850939
Why have American workers traditionally had better working conditions than Eurocucks? Why do American workers on average have an equal to or greater than standard of living than Eurocucks when belonging to same class percentage? Why are Eurocucks so bad at understanding economics?

>>1851263
I don't know how it was for other places, but in Texas, all I had to do was fill out a couple of forms and pay a $20 fee and I had my own LLC and EIN. Did that shit when I was 20.

Shame I didn't start my IT company 5 years earlier though since there was a lot of competition when I got going. Also sucks that owning your own business means you don't get the benefit of knowing you'll come in to work 40 hours every week and walk away with a stable paycheck -- December was always the worst, I'd work maybe 5-10 hours the whole month.

>>1854868
Yeah, and endless stream of "go back to Redit" replies isn't really the same thing as getting "BTFO"

A combination of the whole "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" thing plus the fact a perpetual labor shortage (as well as ww2) have kept wages high and the economy strong, allowing the lower and middle classes to have a lot more than in other countries. This of course ended int the 70s and 80s but the mindset lives on.

>>1856154
The crippling social conditions that produce anime fans would not

>>1856238
You queers are getting BTFO on this board as well, just like you get BTFO in irl.

The Communists ideology of envy and revenge will always attract the way and pathetic.

Despite the violence required for your autism revolution you lack any capacity for it.

You try to get useful idiots, but these days all the useful ones with a capacity for violence are right wing.

Generally, most communists don't own guns, workout, have a decent job, have a wife and children. They will just get their lit degree and vote Bernie.

It's fucking pathetic.

>>1851002
He also brought over an circulated The International Jew, by the way :)

What prevents me from starting a business and hiring people in a communist society? Would the state arrest me for making myself, my employees and my costumers happier?

>>1856568
It depends

Under NEP, you would be legally allowed to exist

>>1856568
>What prevents me from starting a business and hiring people in a communist society?
Free trade is forbidden under communism.

>>1856585
You don't know shit about the Soviet Union

>>1855490
Value in use, not exchange value

>>1856030
Italians were some of the most class conscious proles in America, along with late German and Scandinavian migrants to the upper Midwest

>>1852325
>Yet to meat a communist

You really shouldn't be meating anyone.