>America is a democracy >the document against which all

>>1822852
>Freedom in capitalist societies always remains about the same as it was in ancient Greek republics: Freedom for slave owners.

>>1822852

Yeah, we're still working on that egalitarian society thing.

>>1822852
>democracy means universal suffrage

>he thinks the people who founded the US wanted a democracy

>>1822906
What did they want?

>>1822912

Mostly a return to that sweet, sweet salutary neglect and trade outside of Britain. Independence was somewhat of an afterthought that turned out okay.

>>1822912
They wanted a loose confederation of polities with electors that would select a federal administration, that was neither united, nor a state, nor representative of americans.

>>1822940
prove this

>>1822912
A republic.

I mean, it's a bit silly to say "the founding fathers" as if they ever fucking agreed on anything.

>>1822934
>>1822940
>>1822949
Then how come it turned out to how it is now?

>>1822963

That's a bit of a broad question. Short answer, a lot of legal arguing and one false start to get to the constitution and the bill of rights.

>>1822963
Because they could only agree on so much.

>>1822852
>america is a democracy
>it was not always a democracy
So what? Excepting maybe Iceland, none of the modern democracies were always so.

>>1822852
>unelected aristocratic landowners
>unelected
most of those men were governors (elected by legislators) or legislators elected by town meetings.
>America is a democracy
no its a semi-democratic republic

>>1822974
>>1822975
Cool

They were never elected, they REPRESENTED each states interests, which was carried over inot the later system.

>>1822886
I love this maymay.

>>1822852
>the document against which all laws are determined to be either legal or illegal was written by a cabal of unelected aristocratic landowners
You do know there was a vote on the constitution, right? If I remember correctly every state approved it except Rhode Island.

>>1823130
Suffrage in most states was limited to landed persons at that time. White suffrage followed a few decades later then black suffrage after the civil war, then female suffrage in the 20th century.

Now too many people can vote in a system designed for only rich elites to vote in, and look what happened. You get the worst of both worlds out of sheer hatred for the system.

>>1823199
I'm aware suffrage was quite limited at the time, however landed individuals wouldn't be only a "rich elite". This doesn't disqualify the early U.S. from being democratic. I mean the first known state to have a democracy, Athens, limited voting rights similarly. If you define democracy as requiring indiscriminate, universal suffrage then until fairly recently no state was a democracy. Arguably this would make the US not truly a democracy until the 1960s because before that southern blacks' voting rights really only existed on paper.

>>1822852
Well, it's a democracy as long as its constitution may be changed by popular vote. That is a principal right of the citizens - to change the social contract as to reflect the general will.

Or is the US as theocratic with its constitution as I fear it is?

>>1822852
First, Democracy is the enemy. Inequality is inherent in the universe's metaphysics, we cannot stop that. Historically and philosophically illiterates have no place in direct politics. Their voice lies in the mandate of heaven; the Nobility's duty is to create a strong society, failure means death at the hands of the Mob.

As for the Constitution itself, I don't care if it was written by a King, never before has any political document secured so many rights for the general public. The right to speech, freedom from government coercion, fucking military weaponry to overthrow the government should things go to shit- it gave the people literally everything. Issues with slavery and women's rights were far more cultural than political, and changed relatively rapidly. It all becomes a bit moot when you realize women shouldn't have the Vote anyway. But I digress.

The people in the US now are looking more and more at the government to live their lives for them, and to impose their will on others. The second amendment, literally the implicit approval to kill tyrannical governments (and the kit to boot), is now under attack by large swaths of the general public. Why? The people want slavery- no, they demand slavery. Give the rabble political franchise and they destroy the life blood of a culture, turn it into a whorehouse, looking only to their daily bread and circuses.

Fuck Democracy, its moral and cultural cancer. The Constitution and the bill of rights are excellent precisely because they weren't written by fickle, short sighted, and envious plebeians.

>>1823296
>>>/pol/

>>1822852
you have to start somewhere

>>1822852
to be fair they did set up two ways for that document to be changed by elected leaders in the future

by the way, did you know that the second way (2/3 of state legislatures calling for a constitutional convention) has never been done, but as of April 2016, 29 of the required 33 state legislatures have called for one to discuss a constitutional convention requiring state governments to run a balanced budget.

>>1822979
Icelanders like to say they're the oldest continuous democracy but the original incarnation of the Althing in 930AD (which they claim was a democratic form of government) was little more than all the Icelandic chiefs meeting at one place with their armies at their back and a list of demands, which if not met war were declared. And more frequently than not war were declared.

>>1822852
>unelected

Damn nigga learn your history. They were state delegates.

>>1822852
They were elected to office though. Way to show your ignorance of American history.

>>1822852
to be fair, that happened with Rome as well (whose model we basically ripped-off)

>>1822994
you know that electoral college fiasco we once had

the fathers made it needlessly complicated on purpose so the country can go "fuck this" and leave the power of election to the legislators

>>1822852
>democracy must be all inclusive except if you're rich, white and a landowner

"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner."
-Benjamin Franklin (Founding Father)