Is Job's story the most disturbing? God fucked up his life

It reminds me of North Korea.

Even though North Koreans are suffering under exploitation and famine, they still love their leader.

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>I can't imagine a shittier god to worship.
Try every single deity of the greek pantheon.

The more powerful the worse they got.

>>1810766
at least Job could believe that his family in heaven or something

But then God gave it back and then some. it's meant to drive home 3 lessons:
1: Faith in god is not all sunshine and roses, and he will allow you to get fucked up to make a point.
2: Said point is usually unfathomableOne cannot possibly 'understand' God
3 Despite that, faith is demanded of us, and if we see it through, good shit will happen because in the long run, he has your back.

>>1810769
At least Greek gods had others gods to stop one god from being an asshole

It's just a metaphor bro

>>1810766
>they still love their leader

maybe when said leader is around them because I doubt they unironically are daft enough to worship their oppressor

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>>1810753

>>1810778

Yeah, no, he gave him new wives and kids, his old ones stayed dead. God killed them to win a bet with Satan.

>>1810781
Some people actually believe him though.

Just think about Chinese Red guards and Nazi Hitler Jugents and how much they were obsessed with their ideology.

>>1810781
It's not like they know the alternatives.

>>1810803
>his old ones stayed dead. God killed them to win a bet with Satan. >>1810772

>>1810823
Not that guy but that is cold consolation

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>>1810832
for regular dude like you or me that's true but Job was a true believer, right?

>>1810837
Might as well send him to heaven too while God is at it. I feel like christfags are trying to preach me something but the message still feels absolutely disturbing.

> yfw god and satan use the good cop/bad cop technique on you

>>1810780
God is just a metaphor bro

>>1810847
truth is disturbing sometimes

>>1810753
>God fucked up his life for shits and giggles
we're reading the wrong book m8

>>1810753
I can.
The rational "God" of scientific positivism.
God at least killed Job's family to win a wager against cosmic evil.
Why did 16,000 people die in the 2011 earthquake and tsunami in Japan?
What greater purpose did their deaths serve in your worldview?
None what so ever, and unlike the family of the Biblical Job all those dead Japanese don't go to some heavenly reward for their earthly suffering. They just die. Forever. Yet somehow you find that less offensive than the idea of a family serving as a pawn in the battle between good and evil.

I asked my parents why God hangs out with Satan and makes bets on the lives of mortals

They hit me and made me pray in the closet

>>1810823

Do we have any evidence that his wife, children and slaves were as pious as him? Or do they get a special pass because god himself killed them before they had a chance to demonstrate faith?

>>1810971
>The rational "God" of scientific positivism.

Doesn't exist

>What greater purpose did their deaths serve in your worldview?

The 2011 tsunami gave us invaluable information that will mostly likely be used to improve on everything we already know to minimize deaths caused by earthquakes and natural disasters. The same thing is true for plane crashes. Probably the biggest reason why flying on a plane is so incredibly safe is because quite a lot of planes crashed. What we did after that is even more important, we tried to learn from it and improve our planes with them

>and unlike the family of the Biblical Job all those dead Japanese don't go to some heavenly reward for their earthly suffering

That's right, because a heavenly reward is fucking retarded. Justice and minimizing suffering only means something on this planet, in this life.

>>1810778
Don't worry Bob!

Sure I raped and massacred your entire family, but look! I got you some replacement goldfish!

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>>1810772
The ancient Israelites, and the author of Job, didn't believe in haven and hell. They believed in a sort of morally neutral afterlife called Sheol. Sheol was very similar to the Greek Hades, in that it was a dark and shadowy place without any happiness. Some think it was just an allegory for death or nothingness after your death.

For instance:
The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no more reward, and even the memory of them is lost. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished; never again will they have any share in all that happens under the sun.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6

Whatever your hand finds to do, do with your might; for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.
Ecclesiastes 9:10

YHWH is a monster how ever you twist it.

>and then I told satan, go ahead and kill his wife and family, and he did, the absolute mad man!
Oh Yahweh you sick bastard
>I know lol! No worries though I'll get him new ones

I thought God was all powerful and all knowing.

Why did he make a bet with satan?

>>1811155
Funny thing is that the story makes sense only if you dont believe in God. When you read it as story of human condition and human will, you will understand it better.

Maybe that is the point of the story? -- You dumb fucks, learn to be good even when bad shit happens and there is no fucking God to help you.

God gave Job more wives and children and good health and harvests and such after his ordeal.

But yeah, it's pretty fucked up. What's most interesting is that even once God confronts Job, he doesn't apologize, but only screams at him and asks him "Were you there when I formed the world?", and then scolds the rest of the people present for speaking falsely about him, saying that Job is the only one who spoke truly. And Job throws a really poetic rant up at the sky, too, saying things like God punishes the good and wicked alike and tramps on everyone without giving a shit because he's better than us.

>>1811155
To prove Satan wrong. How will you know if a servant is loyal unless you test him? Satan argued that Job would lose his faith, and God said that Job wouldn't. So they tested him to see what would happen.

>>1811019
>Doesn't exist
Agreed but that doesn't stop you from worshipping science like a god.

>The 2011 tsunami gave us invaluable information that will mostly likely be used to improve on everything we already know to minimize deaths caused by earthquakes and natural disasters.
>Natural disasters have to occur and kill thousands of people so we can study natural disasters in order to learn how to prevent people from dying in natural disasters therefore the deaths of the people who die in natural disasters is justified
Your epistemology is diseased.

>>1811090
Irrelevant as the modern readers of the story of Job are not ancient Israelites.

>>1810855
THIS

>>1811211
>So they tested him to see what would happen.

And this is how the scientific method was born

>>1811544

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

>>1811220
>Agreed but that doesn't stop you from worshipping science like a god.

Really? Tell us about all the amazing rituals and liturgy that goes on around this magical worship of science. Also

>>Natural disasters occur and kill thousands of people, which we can study in order to learn how to prevent people from dying in natural disasters

There you go, without the bullshit strawmen you shoved in

>>1810779
Not really. Remember when they sent serpents to kill that one priest and his family when he tried to warn the trojans about the horse?

>>1810778
>2: Said point is usually unfathomableOne cannot possibly 'understand' God
No the point was pretty clear, he wanted to prove Satan wrong

>>1810779
No one could stop Zeus. And unlike the abrahamic god who may have his flaws but is supposed to love the jews/humanity, Zeus actively hated humanity and the fact that it even came to exist.

>>1810769

At least with the Greek gods you knew what to expect, and they picked favorites. If you pissed one off at least you could hope another would vouch for you, or if Poseidon was mad at you you could try and avoid the sea. And if you think your god had forsaken you, find a new god.

With YHWH There's this "god will love you unconditionally except for these conditions and sometimes even when you meet those conditions he'll still fuck with you" shit. And also "I'm the only one you've got, bitch, so if I fuck you over tough titties, just grovel and say sorry until I consider bestowing some of my infinite forgiveness on you ;^)"

>>1811681
Job didn't know that tho

>>1811667
>rituals and liturgy
Uniform rituals and liturgy are not required to engage in worship. The liturgy and ritual of the individual science worshipper is a highly personal affair and it would be impossible for me to list them all here.

>strawman
How is it a strawman if I asked you what the greater purpose of thousands dying in an earthquake in your worldview is and your response was "so we can learn from it and maybe prevent future deaths"?

>>1811712
Except of course Poseidon could rape you without hating you and ruin your life forever like it happened to Medusa.

>>1811220
> That doesn't stop you from worshipping science like a god.
Well, to be fair, people who *worshiped* defeated black plague, but people who prayed to God just died from it. Because apparently God doing jack shit to actually save our lives.

>>1811726
>The liturgy and ritual of the individual science worshipper is a highly personal affair and it would be impossible for me to list them all here.

Right, probably because they don't exist

>How is it a strawman if I asked you what the greater purpose of thousands dying in an earthquake in your worldview is and your response was "so we can learn from it and maybe prevent future deaths"?

You said "Natural disasters have to occur", implying that I want them to occur in order to learn from, not that I accept them happening as a simple fact of life and think all we can do is try and minimize the suffering from it by studying them as best as possible.

Do you now see the massive difference between the two, and how dishonest your version is? Is being disingenuous also something you learned from Job, or did your priest teach you how to misrepresent other people in a dishonest manner?

>>1811726
> What the greater purpose of thousands dying in an earthquake
God killed them for his amusement, of course any scientific explanation is better, even it it is the one about how shit happens randomly.

>>1810971
>God actively killed Jobs family

Except he didnt, it's pretty clearly explained that Job was blessed by God's protection. All God did was lift that protection and Satan influenced man made evils like raiders or natural ones like disease to hit him.

Frankly Job had it better than billions of other Christians who God won't do anything to actively help, even when they're in the middle east and ISIS rapes and murders their family.

>>1811000
His wife actively told Job to curse God for his misfortunes.

>>1811837
Because God apparently only gave enough of a shit to do anything thousands of years ago. And only in the middle east so fuck the rest of the world.

Muh mysterious ways

If I remember correctly, one part of Job is believed to be an interpolation, added due to the change in sensibilities. I believe the parts believed to be later additions are the speeches by Elihu, as well as Yawheh's restoration of Job's fortune.

>>1811800
>Right, probably because they don't exist
>I fucking love science! doesn't exist.

> Do you now see the massive difference between the two, and how dishonest your version is?
No because the premise of this discussion is a rebuttal of the idea that God is somehow monstrous for allowing Job's family to be killed. If you hold the idea that it is monstrous for Job's family to die in the Bible but you accept human misfortune that occurs outside the Bible as "a simple fact of life" then you are inconsistent in your views and should be called out for being so.

You complain about and mock a worldview that accepts human suffering while adopting a worldview that accepts human suffering yourself. Worst of all the worldview you mock at least provides justification for is suffering while the worldview you hold to be superior offers nothing as justification for the horrible realities of the world.

>irrelevant butthurt fedora tipping about priests
Did it ever occur to you that you're not arguing with a Christian, but someone who simply believes in one less religion than you do?

IT WAS JUST A TEST

REEEEEEEEEEEEEE

GOD IS GREAT. DEATH TO INFIDELS.

>>1810971
>Why did 16,000 people die in the 2011 earthquake and tsunami in Japan?
Nanking

>>1811674
Well if the Trojan gods weren't such cucks, maybe that wouldn't have happened.

>>1812128
I'd make a point about how the sins of the father shouldn't condemn the son, but then again Christians literally believe in Original Sin.

>>1812128
Nanking is lie, anon. Like Holocaust. Chines are literally Asian Jews.

>>1810753

God didn't fuck him up at all. Read it again.

>>1810803
They didn't stay dead. They went to heaven, and were reunited with Job and his wife when they went to heaven. They're together right now.

>>1811000
Didn't matter. At that time, a righteous man's righteousness covered his entire family. Plus, Job made sacrifices on their behalf.

>>1811019
>That's right, because a heavenly reward is fucking retarded.

Think about that while you're floating in the dark and on fire forever.

>>1812244
Why worship a god so petty that he burns all those that choose to believe one of the other thousand fully realized ideologies
I think Christianity is actually one of the less convincing sells that I've seen in a religion now that I think about it

>>1811693
Zeus is just Adam. God made Adam.

>>1810753
Fucking stupid fedoras can't into /lit/
The point of the book of job is to teach a valuable lesson.
That no matter how good of a person you might be or how deserving you are not guaranteed a good life.

>>1812273
>fully realized ideologies

Those things cannot bring you back to life. So, born dead, you stayed dead and get sorted with the dead.

God is worthy of worship, and you have chosen the enemy instead.

There are consequences to such absurd decisions.

>>1812351
Which is of course not the lesson at all.

>>1812376
What is the lesson then you fucking cuck

>>1812389
That if a man has a petition to file against God, as Job did, God Himself must provide a mediator who can put one hand on God, and one hand on the man, and decide the matter.

That mankind needs a Mediator, a Redeemer, a Savior. Job reasoned that God must send Himself to mankind if men and God were ever going to live together.

That the best man who ever lived, perhaps, fell on his face as a worm in the face of the holy God.

Job figured out over 400 years ago that God would come to earth as the Messiah, and that Job would see God with his own eyes.

You have 2000 years of hindsight and still can't figure that out.

>>1812421
Ok, a Christian crazy. Good to know.

Any non-ridiculous interpretations of this fictional story?

>>1811090
>Sheol
lol no, there's a grain of truth in that but its more akin to purgatory than a stasis of life after death.
>The dead do not live as the living do
Obviously
>everyone dies
again, very obvious

>God is le monster
however you twist it, good, I want to worship a monster, and I sincerely hope you are fundamentally disturbed because you are not like me, I want you to suffer.
Call it what you will, but you are utterly arbitrary and powerless, make way for greater things.

>>1810753
Reddit pls go
What did Job gain?
Whose fault is it you are too weak to carry on a self objective truth beyond all doubt?
Not, Job's nor God's it is precisely your fault you do not see the glory in the life of Job.
If you disagree then all is relative and you can do nothing to convince anyone otherwise.

>>1812439
>everyone who disagrees with me is insane
"le krazy Kristians"

>>1810769
The Greek pantheon was a bunch of immortal dudes and chick's you could show the finger to and continue to live life in what you considered to be reasonable fashion, while partying it up ceremonially to appease them. They didn't submit their entire lives, will, and ambitions according to a preacher's interpretation of the gods will.

>>1812465
>a virgin was impregnated by an immortal spirit
>the resultant man/god reversed death, cured illnesses with a swipe of the hand, converted water into wine, and walked on water
>"I-i'm not crazy!"

>>1810778
What a uncannily ignorant and terrifying perspective of reality. Child abuse through and through to allow this to be indoctrinated

>>1812487
Forgot the craziest part:

>I base my entire worldview and belief system on these stories. I don't question or doubt the veracity of any of these stories. But Greek mythology is obviously fictional!

>>1812499
>strawman
>>1812487
>anything that goes against my unquestionable materialist philosophy can not possibly be true at all and anyone who seeks a point to the contrary is totally insane
"Guys, I swear I am totally not biased."

>dibs bedora

>>1812439

I gave you the answer you didn't want to hear; your bias is on you, not me.

You may wonder from time to time "why do bad things happen to good people?".

There are no good people. You and I included. And all of the evil in the universe is concentrated on this planet.

You yearn for the day when there are no Christians; you really need to be careful what you wish for, because that wish is going to be granted soon.

And the Restrainer goes with us.

>>1812511
> You need to be materialist to critic christianity! XD
Are you just throwing whatever pathtic attempt of insult you can come up with at this point or what?

>>1812511
>I believe random, obviously fictional stories without question!!

>>1811090
The author of Ecclesiastes wrote 26 times "under the sun".

And you quote him for things that don't happen "under the sun".

But you're the rational one, yes?

>>1810778
>trade temporal existence for an eternity of bliss
Count me in.
>>1810803
Got more of them though.
>>1812233
this
>>1811043
If those goldfish were made of gold I'd take it
Call me a terrible person, you are simply a weak man in a weak age.
>>1811717
But this is not always the case for everyone in Job's position
>>1812492
I really do hope you lose sleep over this.
I will teach this to my kids day and night, soon they will enslave the world and all men will know these tales and their terror.

A new age of horror and fright is upon you and you can do nothing to stop it.
Call it evil, know it's "nothing personal" its just relative.
Now go to sleep and do not awaken.

>>1812454
>What did Job gain?

The same thing all righteous men prior to the resurrection gained; a place in the earthly kingdom of God, and an eternity living with God Himself.

Job was rich. Filthy rich. And he never once whined about losing it all.

And he wouldn't take all the riches of earth to leave heaven.

>>1812528
>non-materialist claims denote insanity
>I am not a materialist but I am sane
pls stop
>>1812531
>believing anything
>believing logic exists
>believing truth exists
>believing all these random, obviously fictional presuppositions without question

You've a log in your eye, stop trying to remove the twig in mine.

>>1812549
Can you describe to me the feelings associated with this "heaven"? What is the reward exactly? Is it like a massive orgasm? Or sitting next to a really pleasant warm fire? What goes on in "heaven"?

Wait, so you're saying you base your whole worldview on the promise of an afterlife and your God hasn't even bothered to describe it to you?

>>1812528
Also, false, you do need to be a materialist to critique the anti-materialist occurrences within Christianity

>>1812567
constant joy, participation in happiness, the eternal longing searching exploring spirit of man finds what it was looking for.

>>1812567
>Wait, so you're saying you base your whole worldview on the promise of an afterlife and your God hasn't even bothered to describe it to you?
oh right I forgot, its retarded and cant understand religion

>>1812577
> anti-materialist occurrences
They aren't anti-materialist, just physically impossible.

>>1812592
What does "happiness" feel like outside of material reality?

>>1812567
You have to know a few things about God. You have to deduce things like "God made sex pleasurable for us", etc.

Then you have to know that God keeps his promises, always, all of them.

Then you have to know that God has in store for those who love him, everyone he adopts into his family, such wonderful things that we cannot even imagine them.

So God is going to keep that promise too. I spend some time imagining things I'd like to do in heaven, like ride event horizons, dive through stars, etc., and I know that the real heaven is better than that.

Imagine being filled with Love, with Joy, with Peace, with Gentleness, with Goodness, with Patience, and that everyone around you is also filled with all of these things.

Then imagine that there exists a God who is worthy of worship, who you can never worship enough, and the very act of worshiping God is better than anything you have ever imagined.

And then imagine that God collaborating with you to create whatever your heart desires.

I have felt the peace that passes all understanding, one of the gifts from the Holy Spirit of God, and just being in that state, without diminishment, without habituation, forever, is rapturous.

To be with the Creator as He continues His creation? To be in on the ground floor, so to speak?

Priceless.

>>1812609
It feels nothing like joy, which is event independent and eternal.

>>1812602
>They aren't anti-materialist, just physically impossible.
>physically impossible within material reality
hence the inherent anti-materialist take on them.
>>1812609
>Happiness is a feeling
lel, read Aristotle, pleb.
>>1812618
like this, joy is a never ending song of the soul.

>>1812562
> non-materialist claims
They aren't non-materialist, i.e if science finds the way to convert water into wine, materialism would still be fine and Bible will suffer because everyone could accuse Jesus for being stage magician and a sham in general. Same for any other miracle on your list. The real weight of Miracles is the denial of natural laws, but such laws could exist even in most anti-material of doctrines just fine. The laws of physics being material are just one option here.

>>1812657
Science has already found a way to turn water into wine.

We've been doing it for thousands of years.

Jesus just did it in an instant, and the wine was premium aged. In an instant.

But yeah, we turn water into wine all the time.

Science will never cause you to become spiritually alive. Ever. You'll just know more useless things.

>>1812511
>I believe in magic
>I'm also not crazy

>>1812650
> physically impossible within material reality
You can generalize it to naturally impossible within reality of any kind. Physics aren't grounded on the material character of laws. You can say that some laws govern both material and non-material worlds, for example.

>>1812657

If you admit there are laws, denying the law giver is irrational.

If you admit the law giver made the laws, then denying he transcends them is irrational.

But you think you're rational, right?

>>1812617
>You have to [presume] a few things about [a whole bunch of bullshit]

>>1812669
Use is relative, dismissive christian friend.

For example the science that went into making your car safe to drive is of high use to you in your day to day life, and I'm sure you'd agree your life is very useful to you, given that your admission to heaven is dependent on your choices in life.

>>1812669
> In an instant.
No human can perfectly testify for a literal instant and especially for instant wine to be the premium age one. Quick enough method could exist. With some trick, one or another.,, But the point here is that you can be non-materialist (some kind of the alchemist, for example) and still think that a wine trick is impossible one.

>>1812701
If Jesus himself was above the laws, the least we can do is follow his example.

>>1812703
You don't have to presume anything.

They are revealed by God through His prophets and His Son, written down and preserved through the ages for you to read.

>>1812721
It's not, actually.

Anything that's not eternal is useless.

>>1812701
>If you admit there are laws, denying the law giver is irrational.
Law is just the phrase ascribed to the various physical concepts by people as they researched them, its not meant to mean the same exact thing as a legal code.

>If you admit the law giver made the laws, then denying he transcends them is irrational.
This is idiotic on its face. In modern society a law maker is bound by his own laws, he absolutely does not transcend them.

>But you think you're rational, right?
You can't argue about rationality with semantics alone, and semantics are all you have used.

>>1812731
Correct.

The works of God showed that Jesus is God. You can believe Jesus is God based on the works of God that Jesus performed.

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>>1812750
Your instant contradiction says a lot about you, and about your chances of attaining that eternity.

>>1812737
You sure can. And are. And so has every single human being before you, and contemporaneous with you.

Problem is these laws carry the death penalty.

Good news is that there's a pardon with your name on it.

Are you wise enough to find it?

>>1812760
There is a universal moral code. There are moral laws hardwired into the universe. Ergo, there is a universal law giver.

>>1812797
I said you can learn a lot of useless things via science.

I said that science can never cause you to become eternally alive.

Where you see contradiction, I see your confusion.

>>1812744
You just told me I had to. Now you're telling my to presume god has revealed anything.

Is there something in the scripture that forces you to be constantly deceptive?

>>1812792
Yes, I didn't deny Jesus being divine. Just saying that if you didn't believe in his divinity or miracles, it didn't somehow make you materialist by default like in case of pagans, for example.

>>1812798
> death penalty
Who cares about life? It isn't eternal anyway.

>>1812798
The solution to that problem is to consider whether or not you believe in the existence such laws and act accordingly.

Wisdom:
>you believe, I believe

Foolishness:
>you believe, but I know

>>1812803
I disagree.

>>1812823
What you do in life supposedly has a great deal of impact on how eternity will look for you.

>>1812812
And I gave you a reason why a finite thing (your life) is very, very important to you. Your response to that reason is this: "nu-uh."

>>1812813
You don't have to presume anything.

It's all been laid out for you to read.

As the bible tells the story of the earth from beginning to end, in advance, something only God can do, your presumptions are zero.

In fact, you are presuming right now that God did not inspire the bible, and that the bible is not the Word of God, with absolutely no basis whatsoever.

>>1812814
Correct.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

>>1812823

You are using your own definition of death, which is inapplicable here, as your definition is "a cessation of life".

God's definition of death is "separation from Me", as God is Life.

As you have not God's Spirit in you, you have no life in you, and you are dead. Separated from God.

Should that condition persist, you will become a victim of the second death, being cast into eternal torment in a lake of fire, eternally separated from God.

Eternally dead.

What science would be useful to you in that scenario?

>>1812834
You don't even have to believe in the laws to see that nobody follows them. They're not laws meant for human beings, but for God.

Only God can follow God's law.

So what the devil told you, and humanity, that by doing good and avoiding evil you can be like God, is an enormous lie.

>>1812896
How can you be separated from omnipresent God?

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>>1812478
>s you could show the finger to and continue to live life in what you considered to be reasonable fashion
Yeah, about that...

>>1812884
My life is not a finite thing, and neither is yours.

Your disagreement about their being a universal moral code in which no society, for instance, mutilates small children to death for entertainment, lacks basis.

Your disagreement with, ignorance of, and failure to follow the moral law has no effect on the moral law whatsoever, but to establish it, empower it, and justify it.

>>1812903
By God making you a sovereign free will moral agent and not imposing himself on you.

Being omnipresent does not mean that you have to be in all places at all times.

Your box will never be big enough to contain God, or constrain God.

>>1812906
>My life is not a finite thing
Can you elaborate on that?

>Your disagreement [...] lacks basis
Besides the objective fact that many individuals do those things for entertainment throughout recorded history, simply assuming that no society as a whole farts glitter onto paper for entertainment does not mean there is a universal moral code proscribing doing so as immoral.
Though really, I'm not interested in debating on that any further whatsoever. I''m as comfortable with my belief as you are.

>Your disagreement with, ignorance of, and failure to follow the moral law has no effect on the moral law whatsoever, but to establish it, empower it, and justify it.
You realize you explicitly refute yourself by directly stating your claim is un-falsifiable, right? Whatever you're trying to do here, appealing on any sort of rational ground can't be it. You literally just told me "you can't disprove this. anything you do only proves it."

That is literally logical grounds to ignore your argument in its entirety.

>>1812959
Once conceived, human beings are eternal so that we can live with the eternal God for an eternity.

My physical life here on earth is a blip on the radar; my true self and my true life have barely begun.

No society has ever been known to do something horrific and murderous for entertainment purposes only, which you would expect if there were a universal moral law.

I'm not giving you falsifiable claims, but the truth.

The truth is not capable of being falsified, only lied about.

>>1812545
When did edgy teenagers convert from atheism or Satanism to Christianity? How deluded do you have to be that Christianity doesn't conflict with your silly power fantasies and might makes right ideology?

>>1810769
According to some Greek philosophers the myths weren't actual true stories about the gods, because the gods were actually all good.

>>1812657
You're very smart but the people who determine the rules of the game don't take the position you do.
Science is always changing and questioning itself unless it comes to current science like Evolution or The Big Bang.
>>1812693
Believing in magic isn't crazy, magic is the name for what you do not understand, any technology insufficiently understood is no different than wizard "magic". Magic is a perfectly sensible term, a upon seeing the glory that is synthetic light for the first time, who would deny magic?
>>1812698
Yes, but you won't find that among materialists.
Who use materialism to shoot at non-materialists.
>>1813239
I just really want people who are weak to be uncomfortable, for their own sake.

>>1810753
>Old Testament Jew bible
Really OP? In this story Job's misfortune is the doing of Yaweh, the cruel 'earth god.'

Also whenever Atheists attack the bible/Christianity they always pull an Old Testament story out of their ass. I don't buy into all that nonsense.

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>>1812803
>There is a universal moral code

This is when you lost.

>>1813496
Unless you're a follower of Marcion or assorted gnostic (unlikely), all christians accept the Old Testament as inspired.

>>1813533
There is a universal moral code that code being, it is good to be good, just to be just, unjust to be unjust and evil to be evil.

>>1812977
He was talking about your physical life dude. That blip on the radar is important because the blip on the radar is the only point in eternity where you get to choose to accept Christ into your heart.

>>1810800
>>1810800
What is this? It's beautiful ;_;

>>1810781
>daft enough to worship their oppressor
Except to them he's their bastion against the American Imperialism

>>1813584
>Every Christian must subscribe to the strict beliefs of their denomination
I've always seen faith as more open to personal interpretation.

>>1810854
Which one is a good cop

>>1812896
I don't understand. If God is good and a lack of God is evil and leads to eternal torment in a lake of fire, is fire evil?

>>1812977
>No society has ever been known to do something horrific and murderous for entertainment purposes only
Roman gladiator fights

>>1812577
Gnosticism says hello

ITT: people who never played Sims

>>1812977
>No society has ever been known to do something horrific and murderous for entertainment purposes only

>>1813783

Yes but the definition of each of those terms is dependent on the society. What constitutes virtue or justice now is not what it constituted in Greece circa 300 BC for example

I side with Job's wife on this one.
>Curse God and die!

I'm a /satanist/ now

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>>1810753
YOU KNOW HE HAD SEX WITH BOTH OF HIS DAUGHTERS RIGHT???

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>>1812454
Its a well known fact, that every scholar of the Hebrew Bible teaches. What you are writing about may be about Sheol from the Hellenistic period. The concept of the afterlife evolved in every culture and the same is with Jews. Concept of an afterlife during the Hellenistic period was influenced by other cultures, most notably the Greeks. It was more complex than during the Monarchic period for instance. What I'm saying is that Sheol as understood by the author of the book of Job and during his time.

Sheol, the underworld to which a person went at death the Hebrew Bible does not recognize a differentiated heaven and hell. Since this afterlife was at best a shadowy existence (see Ps 6.5; Eccl 9.10), Jacob’s going to his son there was not a comforting expectation.
-The New Oxford Annotated Bible with Apocrypha, Fully Revised Fourth Edition, 2010., p. 64.

or

Here the dead meet without distinction of rank or condition—the rich and the poor, the pious and the wicked, the old and the young, the master and the slave—if the description in Job iii. refers, as most likely it does, to Sheol. The dead continue after a fashion their earthly life. Jacob would mourn there David abides there in peace; the warriors have their weapons with them, yet they are mere shadows ("rephaim"; Isa. xiv. 9, xxvi. 14; Ps. lxxxviii. 5, A. V. "a man that hath no strength"). The dead merely exist without knowledge or feeling (Job xiv. 13; Eccl. ix. 5). ...Sheol is a horrible, dreary, dark, disorderly land (Job x. 21, 22); yet it is the appointed house for all the living (ib. xxx. 23). Return from Sheol is not expected (II Sam. xii. 23; Job vii. 9, 10; x. 21; xiv. 7 et seq.; xvi. 22; Ecclus. [Sirach] xxxviii. 21); it is described as man's eternal house (Eccl. xii. 5). It is "dust" (Ps. xxx. 10; hence in the Shemoneh 'Esreh, in benediction No. ii., the dead are described as "sleepers in the dust").
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13563-sheol

>>1810753
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

>>1811090
For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol
Psalm 16:10

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>>1814911
Therefore my heart is glad, and my soul rejoices;
my body also rests secure.
For you do not give me up to Sheol,
or let your faithful one see the Pit.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+16&version=NRSV

>>1814509
Not Job. Read the bible, rather than excerpts from truther websites. It'll help you keep the wildly different stories apart.
You're referring to the blasphemous biblical narrative of Lot.

>>1811090
First time I heard about this. How does theology deal with the difference between the Old and New Testament depiction of the afterlife? Or is this quote misrepresented and how?

>>1811211
But why test Job? If God is omniscient, He knows Job won't falter, so there was nothing gained by torturing him senselessly.

On another note, how does theology deal with God being omniscient and humans having free will? If He knows what will happen, then what he knows will happen, meaning everything is predestined. I know reformed and some protestants hold that everything is predestined and those given the gift of faith are destined to be saved. But what of catholics? And, if omniscience already forbids free will, why did the benevolent God create an imperfect world where only some are saved while others burn im Hell? It is generally justified by free will (though the existence and extent of free will isbphilosophically debatable), but then, how do protestants and reformists deal with that problem?

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Fuck off atheists. This is strictly an anti-fedora site, there's no place for your kind here. You hold ridiculous and inconsistent beliefs, yet you claim to be smart and intellectual, and spread your idiocy wherever you get your dorito-powdered hands on.
At least the smartest ones among you tend to realize how illogical and baseless atheism is later on in life and convert to Christianity or other religions.

>>1815152
see >>1814633
There's a consensus among scholars on this subject. This is nothing new.

Later, the concepts about the afterlife changed, as I already pointed out. Or to be even more precise, they got more diverse. Even in 1 century AD there were some groups of Jews who didn't believe in the existence of an afterlife or they still believed in the shadowy existence in Sheol, such as Sadducees.

Theology? Your gonna have to ask Christians about that. But, basically they teach that people of that time just didn't know any better, so they got it wrong.

>>1815226
Wouldn't the writers if the Old Testament "getting it wrong" completely deny its validity? If the Old Testament has some mistakes in it i.e. is not infallible, then there is no way to determine what is a mistake and what isn't, and how many mistakes there are compared to the truths, making it worthless (it would be the same as writing a mathematical system based on axioms of which you know at least one is false). And wouldn't that also drag down the New Testament, which bases its validity on the (in this case potentially false) predictions of the Old Testament?

>>1815264
No idea mate, I am as puzzled as you are. Leave it to the Christians and their mental acrobatics.

It's an early example of the Fundamental Attribution Error.

It's easy to judge Job as a "good" person when all good shit happens to him. Like it's easy to judge someone like a /pol/tard neetbeard to be evil when all bad shit happens to him.

Like the story with Cain and Abel. God was being a cunt. But that is no and never a good reason to kill your brother for it. It isn't Abel's fault God was being unfair. Why kill him?

>>1810753
It's a story about strength of faith. He endured temptation and suffering and for his faith he got everything back 10fold.

>>1810779
greek gods were pretty bro tier and only dicks to dicks

>>1811956
It is infinitely worse that human suffering happens but is preventable by the entity we expect to shield us from it than suffering just being a probability.

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>>1810753
Its symbolic of initiation.

>>1815152
>>1815264
During the Babylonian captivity the Jews, influenced most likely by Persians, came up with the idea of Messiah who will not only deliver them from earthly suffering, but will open a new afterlife for them, where they will chill out alongside God.

Obviously the idea that Christ's sacrifice opened a new afterlife for the faithful is pretty fundamental for Christians. Like, it's the entire point of his life and death.
The Catholic creed at least holds that after his death, Jesus went into Sheol and freed the souls of the dead trapped there, and led them to Heaven.

So yeah, while a Catholic might not have heard the specifics of Jewish eschatology and its evolution, we sure as hell have been taught that even the righteous like patriarchs and prophets awaited the coming of Christ in a sleep-like state before being allowed into heaven.

Dunno why you're weirded out by it, or am I misunderstanding? Or do other sects of Christianty hold a different view (unlikely)?

>>1816727
Second time I've seen this and I still don't get what famine is supposed to represent.

>>1812977
>No society has ever been known to do something horrific and murderous for entertainment purposes only
kek

>>1815903
I disagree.
Bad things happening for a reason has always been a far more palatable prospect, than bad things happening randomly for no reason.

>>1813466
I really hope you're just underage for your own sake.

>>1816779
nigga

>>1812233
>hey i'm going to kidnap your children for several decades but it'll all be okay because i'll let you see them again when you're on your deathbed