>Russia was biggest exporter of grain in Tsarist times >communists

>no economic incentive system
>no price signalling

>>1798283
I love it when commies try to take credit for """"modernization"""" when the social conditions that allowed communists to come to power in the first place was the result of decades of massive urbanization, social reforms and infrastructure investments by the ebil Tsarist government. Russia was in the middle ages when it entered the 19th century but all of a few decades behind the rest of western civilization when it entered the 20th.

>>1798283
the peasants went full retard and refused to collectivize.

Also you are ignoring some major wars and an economic race with the fastest growing capitalist economy which was theoretically doomed to fail. There isnt an economist, capitalist, socialist, or communist on earth that will argue that capitalist economies grow and falter at much higher rates than socialist ones.

Capitalism = sine graph
Communism = .3x

>>1798283
Communism was an ideology invented by city dwellers. They don't understand agriculture.

>>1799343
Source on this? To my knowledge the modernization efforts only began to any sofgnificant degree in the 1900's

>>1798283
DUDE THEORY LABOR VALUE LMAO

>>1799343
I'd like to see you become the son of a former serf in Russia in the 1890s and then have the audacity to write that comment again.

>>1799364
Better than being the son of a son of a former serf in the 30s and having to eat your father's corpse because you're starving.

>>1799364
Serfdom was abolished in the mid 19th century you uneducated nigger.

>>1799375
>son of a former serf
Learn to read you nigger

>>1798283
What do marx and engels have to do with the agricultural policies of stalin?

>>1799394
Don't even try that tack, friendo.

>>1799420
No, seriously. I want at least some quotes that link the works of marx with stalinist agriculture. Or are we all assuming that they are responsible just because?

>>1798283
It is in it's nature to [COLAPSE]

>>1798283

>reactionaries
>in charge of reading

https://mltheory.wordpress.com/2016/08/07/the-results-of-the-1st-2nd-soviet-five-year-plans-soviet-industrial-revolution/

CANNOT make this propaganda up

>>1798283
The Empire of Russia had famines on a regular basis. This is because the capitalists who 'owned ' the grain sold it to the highest bidder, who were usually foreigners who had more money than Russian peasants.

You do know that Communism was forced on the Russian people, on pain of death, by Imperial order circa 1865 NC, right?

>>1798283
Why?

[COLLAPSE]

That's why

>>1799353
What exactly do you call [COLAPSE]?

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>>1798283
Russia is NOT the largest exporter of grain nowadays.

>>1799434
This sort of invalidates the whole thread. Nice

>>1799961
>2010
Are you retarded?
>>1799353
>refused to collectivize
>if behaviour of people doesn't conform to my perfect system, it's their fault
>>1799364
>Bolsheviks enjoyed support from peasants
Lie. They didn't even enjoy majority support from urban population. They imposed their system and rule via brutal violence.

>>1799434
I just posted Marx and Engels, it's dumb to claim they are respinsible.
But system created by Lenin (who followed what they wrote, don't even try to deny it) created Stalin and all that.
In fact every Marxist state was shit. Every single one. Even Cuba. Even Yugoslavia.

Agriculture in the Soviet Union was more productive than under the Russian Empire, but thanks to the regime's political commitment to maintaining extremely low prices for bread, consumption increased even faster. People would stand in line for bread for hours, get as much as they could carry (why not?), then feed what was left over to animals or just throw it away. If market forces had been allowed to determine the price of bread the Soviet Union would never have had to import grain

>>1800266
>then feed what was left over to animals or just throw it away.
why.jpg

>>1800063
>Are you retarded?
Those agricultural patterns hold for years, short of an exceptional event like a drought. Show me proof Russia is the number one exporter today.

I don't see them first in any category.

http://www.worldstopexports.com/corn-exports-country/
http://www.worldstopexports.com/wheat-exports-country/
http://www.worldstopexports.com/soya-beans-exports-country/

2015 data. The best they manage is the 5th spot on wheat.

So stop falling for RT propaganda pleb.

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>>1800266
>standing in line for 4 hours for a loaf of bread was because of greed.
>ignore the famine in ukraine, or kazakstan

>>1799961
>argentina on the list
>brazil isn't
Consider post-natal abortion

>>1798283
It was partly in consequences of the massive land reform because most of the land, especially in Ukraine, was owned by wealthy landowners and workers lived under serfdom. Combine that with two famines massive famines in the 1920s and 1930s, respectively.

>>1798309
>>no price signalling
This right here. A few bureaucrats are not smarter than the market.

>>1800073
>But system created by Lenin (who followed what they wrote, don't even try to deny it) created Stalin and all that.
"I want a vanguard party to take the power away from the workers, create a secret police, establish a totalitarian government, and kill as many people as possible. Whatever you do, remember to NEVER give the workers the means of production".
Karl "the vanguardist" Marx

>>1801187
Why is it that commies can't realize that's one of the consequences of attempting socialism/communism? They must be truly stupid.

>>1801559
>We wish that our economic institutions are organised democratically
>Ok guys, let's start murdering people.
Doesn't exactly follow, does it.

>>1800063
I never said it was perfect or that I even supported it. I was just explaining what happened. And when people refuse to do what the government says part of the responsibilty lies on them. If they complied and everything still failed then it would be purely on the gov.

Chill the fuk out

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>>1799362
Not him but

>>1800063

Actually the Bolsheviks enjoyed massive support from city workers over the rural peasants (Mao would be the opposite). It was part of the reason why the soviets were formed in the cities.

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>>1798283

It's funny because it is true! Communism was an absurd failure!

>>1799364
>DUDE WE HATE SERFDOM
>SO WE'RE GONNA TAKE ALL OF YOUR MONEY AND FREEDOM AND FORCE YOU AT GUNPOINT TO WORK ON A FARM WITHOUT COMPENSATION
>BECAUSE WE HATE SERFDOM SO MUCH LMAO

>>1802529
I guess I should clarify
I know that witte had began a large reform of the economy (it started earlier than I had expected) but the original comment seemed to claim there was a massive increase in living standards in the 19th century which doesn't appear to be the case

>hur hur look at me and my meme understanding of history lol DAE hate communism amirite upboat xD

>>1799364

>I'd like to see you become the son of a former serf in Russia in the 1890s and then have the audacity to write that comment again.

Being a serf in 19th century russia was shit. Being a farm worker in 20th century Russia wasn't much better. As others have already pointed out, the communist leadership had a huge bias towards the cities. When Hitler invaded, they didn't even try to defend the countryside at all. They just sat back and watched the Nazis kill those people.

>>1802556
Actually there was, see the passage about the kulaks, they were a forming middle class which was something Russia lacked for its entire existence. Formerly landless serfs were finally getting some property and then commies came and confiscated it all.

>>1802574

>Formerly landless serfs were finally getting some property and then commies came and confiscated it all.

You know, when you put it like that it all sounds rather tragic.

>>1802590
Everything in Russia's history is tragic

>>1802574
The kulaks didn't come from serfdom.

>>1800266
This was part of the NEP.

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This idiot right here.

>>1802599
The ancestors of kulaks were overwhelmingly serfs before 1863. There wasn't such a thing as a rural middle class, it was almost all either nobility/gentry or serfs.

>>1798283
>communism
Communism was not achieved in Russia.

>>1802623
Communism wasn't achieved anywhere and never will be, because it's a dogshit pipe dream.

>>1802627
Ok? Not really relevant to what I was saying.

>>1802620
You keep calling the kulaks a rural middle class

I don't think you know what that means. They were as middle class as any southern slave owner before the Civil War.

>>1802599

>The kulaks didn't come from serfdom.

Then where did they come from?

>>1802640

That doesn't make any sense.

>>1802640
You have no idea who the kulaks were. They were former serfs who owned some property, often just a few pieces of livestock and a plot of land. To compare them to aristocratic southern slave owners is some American bear tier retardation.

>>1798283
>exporting grain = surplus grain
nice logical leap, there. plenty of countries export foodstuffs while people starve.
As a matter of fact this is a communist talking point to get people to revolt.

>>1798283
I just checked our newspapers and this year is literally a shit year for exports with sales on a decline (even if the grain is available) with results as bad as 2013 which is refered to as a previous bad year for exports.

So I don't fucking know what you talking about, m8

>>1802620
>The ancestors of kulaks were overwhelmingly serfs before 1863
Where did you read this?

While its true that communist agricultural policy was a failure, as compared to Tsarist times the population of the USSR had higher living standards, and thus food consumption was much higher. The Tsarist regime was able to export as much grain as they did by cutting consumption to the bone. Of course, communists really did fail agriculturally, and now the Russians are climbing out of that hole, but to an extent the Russian Imperial grain exports were artificial.

>>1804092
Wait who did you actually think they were? Genuinely curious now.

>>1798283
Nice fucking meme.

>>1802607
This.

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>>1798283
population of SU grows
but urbanization disproportionately rises too making less and less people responsible for providing food for these city dwellers

>>1801050
Former Soviet states count together still are biggest grain exporter in the world.

>>1798283
you must truly be retarded if you count the things wrong with an ideology (if you know your history you would know why the grain was gone...) Next time you want to find something wrong with communism and what it did you should read up fag....

>>1798283
>>1799343
>russia the biggest exported of grain
>they fight a losing battle in THE GREAT WAR
>they fight a CIVIL WAR
>they lose their best most developed land to Germany
>hurrr why u so underdeveloped :D

Yes, the commies literally modernized and industrialized Russia, and it was medieval before them.

>>1799364
>I'd like to see you become the son of a former serf in Russia in the 1890s and then have the audacity to write that comment again.

You mean like for instance general Anton Denikin, leader of the anti-Communist White Movement and a son of a serf from Saratov and a Polish seamstress?

>>1804918
This is during the fascist regime, though. The early decade of "idealist" communists is where you should check. The USSR stopped being communist after that, when it lost to Poland and intervened in anarchist Ukraine.

>>1798283
They're jews thus they wanted to genocide the christians like the jews always did when they were in power. Check the History of the Kingdom of Himyar, the Kingdom of Aksum(Judith), and the History of the Samaritan Revolts.

>>1798283
>Russia before revolution
>"we may starve for a while, but we'll sell it" - minister of economy Vyshnegradsky
>Russia after WWI and Civil War
>fuck, economy is ruined, we have to import grain so we don't starve

>>1802403
How else are you going to redistribute the wealth dumbass?

>>1805199
Let workers rule the factory
Politically opress the bourgeoisie, so they won't be able to bribe anyone or lobby any laws
Reform the law according to the needs of the new time.
Leave the planning to the computers
And after the reforms would be done, the planning system is adjusted and the bourgeoisie as class doesn't exist, then everything would be fine.

>>1805216
And you think the bourgeouise will just stand aside and let you play savior?

In Russia there were cases of farmers slaughtering their cattle and burning their grain out of pure spite; what makes you think this won't happen on a larger scale?

>Workers are being oppressed, they must rule themselves!
>Except they are too stupid to rule themselves so we need to oppress them and tell them what to do

Marxist-Leninist logic in a nutshell

How much is the production?
You can export more but produce less, you know.

>>1802403
History tells you otherwise.
That's why you are an idiot.
Now do the world a favor and kill yourself.

>>1799961
>2010
Agriculture produce in russia surged after 2013 because of Sanctions.

>>1798283
Half the peasants in the empire were starving desu

>>1798283
Jews and Bolsheviks

>>1801050
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/af66f51e-6515-11e6-8310-ecf0bddad227?client=safari

>>1806180
There were 2 famines in Russia between 1800 and 1917. There were 6 famines between 1917 and 1950, ponder that.

>>1806361
It wasn't REAL communism, prepare to be educated by an autistic LARPing samefag

>>1806377
Some people are just interested in history. Marxist theory was a large part of 19th and 20th century history, whether you like it or not. Reading about it does not equal agreement. There's no need to lower it to this

>>1798283
Communism is designed for this type of failure. The population chosen to become the locus of production is starved into submission. This forces the people into a cycle of government subsistence.
All wealthy parties relocate their assets and investments, thereby lowering the median resources required for insurrection.
In effort to survive, the population will prevent any dissident or rebellious action that threatens the possibility of government/military reprisal.

In short, mass starvation shouldn't be seen as incidental to communism. It is always intended.

>>1798283

I don't care what OP says, communism was still a million times better than feudalism, if Russia entered the 20th century with feudalism I'm sure there would have been 10x as much poverty and suffering. Capitalism was better, but it's good they switched to communism over feudalism and serfdom.

>>1799373
> Starvation in the 30s
You are about 15 years too late brah

>>1801088
How can you Hues be so butthurt

>>1802552
> Their money
> w/o compensation

If they had attempted it instead of self sabatoging it would have went much better for everyone involved. Im not saying that forcing them to collectivize was a good idea, but they made things much worse by resisting.

It is pretty funny as you and others have pointed out that the revolution was definitely worker oriented.

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>>1806620
>Russia was still a feudal country in 1917

When will this meme die? Russia abolished serfdom in 1861.

>>1807854
>The serfs had to work for the landlord as usual for two years. The nobles kept nearly all the meadows and forests, had their debts paid by the state while the ex serfs paid 34% over the market price for the shrunken plots they kept. This figure was 90% in the northern regions, 20% in the black earth region but zero in the Polish provinces. In 1857, 6.79% of serfs were domestic, landless servants who stayed landless after 1861.[citation needed] Only Polish and Romanian domestic serfs got land. 90% of the serfs who got larger plots were in Congress Poland where the Tsar wanted to weaken the szlachta. The rest were in the barren north and in Astrakhan. In the whole Empire, peasant land declined 4.1%, 13.3% outside the ex Polish zone and 23.3% in the 16 black earth provinces.[citation needed] These redemption payments were not abolished till January 1, 1907.

Don't act like they got off on favorable turns anon, it's hurts me

Feudalism definitely excised until 1871 cause that's when it was finally abolished in Georgia anyway

>>1805066
You mean the guy that was defeated by two guys with no prior military experiece?

Also great example. The military was one of the few (and still difficult to get) options for quick upward mobility for former serfs. Aside from that you were either stuck a farmer or a factory worker. Yes there were exceptions, but it was miserable otherwise.

>>1799343
Nice revisionism.
Urban areas had grown noticeably by 1917, but they were nowhere near as developed or widespread as in Western or Central Europe.
>social reform
If you're talking mid-19th century, maybe yes. Serfdom was finally abolished in 1865 and ethnic and religious minorities enjoyed a brief but savored period of relative tolerance. However, Nicholas II was very authoritarian and anti-Semitic and didn't shy away from using violence to crush rebellions. He had protestors shot in the decade or two before the Revolution, and the late 19th and early 20th century were notorious for pogroms and other acts of ethnic violence.

>>1798283
Someone needs to make the equivalent of technology progress and the hole left by the Christian dark ages but with communism, just for the keks.