Many people believe Roosevelt knew the Japanese were about to

I don't even know where the theory got off. Roosevelt knew a Japanese attack was coming, but thought it would most likely come in the Phillipines or some Eastern territory. No one could have guessed or thought the Japanese even COULD touch Pearl Harbor.

Bump.

>>1795453

Some saw the carriers being absent from the attack as being a bit too convenient, implying the BBs were sacrificed. That, the delayed telegraph, and the confrontation made inevitable by our embargo all wound up to support the conspiracy.

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"I only use the chair to get respect."

>>1795492
Notice he's locking arms with his boo there.

>>1795477
the USN didn't value the carriers as highly before they absolutely had to use them. The japanese already centered their navy around the kido butai though.

>>1795477
>let's leave all the BBs which are still considered the backbone of the navy in the port which is about to be attacked and leave with the CVs that our naval doctrines do not yet consider to be the key and decisive instruments of war so that they don't get sunk

plane fuel cant melt steel decks

>>1795437
Someone wrote a book on this conspiracy a while back, had some interesting points.

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It draws parallel to 9/11.

Government wants war, people don't want war. Attack on American soil brings the people to support war.

>>1795437
If America repulsed the attack easily it would leave breathing room for the Americans to ask 'why were the Japanese desperate enough to attack us even though we're supposedly not doing anything?'.
The natural conclusion to such a question would be America must still be doing something.

If it was a successful attack, there is no time for questions.

If someone bumps into you on the street you wonder why the hell they did that, maybe they're in a rush. Outright repelling the attack makes it look like a bump rather than a drawn-back punch.
If someone punches you in the face on the street, you're going to retaliate and ask questions later.

>>1795437
I mean it wouldn't be the first time ''something'' exploded so they could go to war. USS Maine's explosion is a good example

>>1795437
People are dumb. What do you expect?

>>1795477
Carriers were absent because they were ferrying aircraft to Wake and Midway, which you wouldn't use BBs for some very good reasons.

>>1795681
>If America repulsed the attack easily it would leave breathing room for the Americans to ask 'why were the Japanese desperate enough to attack us even though we're supposedly not doing anything?'.
This is the dumbest thing I read all day. However the day is still young.

>>1795437
It was an open secret in the intelligence community. Everybody fucking knew the Japanese were going to attack.

The fucking FBI knew.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Du%C5%A1an_Popov#Allegations_regarding_Pearl_Harbor

>In 1941, Popov was dispatched to the United States by the Abwehr to establish a new German network.[9] He was given ample funds and an intelligence questionnaire (a list of intelligence targets, later published as an appendix to J.C. Masterman's book The Double Cross System). Of the three typewritten pages of the questionnaire, one entire page was devoted to highly detailed questions about US defences at Pearl Harbor on the Hawaiian island of Oahu. He made contact with the FBI and explained what he had been asked to do. During a televised interview, Duško Popov related having informed the FBI on 12 August 1941, of the impending attack on Pearl Harbor. For whatever reason, either the FBI chief J. Edgar Hoover did not report this fact to his superiors,[10] or they, for reasons of their own, took no action in regard to this apparent German interest in Pearl Harbor.

All shitstains posting in this thread without having read this entire page have failed /his/.

Let's try again brain dead fuckers. Read the whole thing then we can discuss some history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_Harbor_advance-knowledge_conspiracy_theory

>Another issue in the debate is the fact neither Admiral Kimmel nor General Short ever faced court martial. It is alleged this was to avoid disclosing information showing the U.S. had advanced knowledge of the attack. When asked, "Will historians know more later?", Kimmel replied, "' ... I'll tell you what I believe. I think that most of the incriminating records have been destroyed. ... I doubt if the truth will ever emerge.' ..."[127] From Vice Admiral Libby, "I will go to my grave convinced that FDR ordered Pearl Harbor to let happen. He must have known."[128]

>>1795437
you must make an difference between geopolitics and local politics.
Geopolitics are really,really brutal and indifferent towards individuals.
I honestly dont know if they knew Japs would attack but even if they did , thats not
conspiracy, its legitimate move. They did knew Japs were on to something but they need reason to proclaime war,
convince people to fight that war and in a way to see whats their enemy willing/capeable to do.

If he just said:" We are at war with Japan because we belive theyll attack us." he is The Aggressor, he made the first move(scale and horror of ww2 created preemptive wars.)
This way he has some hellova propaganda material to rile people up, he is on the side of "good",congress will be on his side 100% and people will hate Japs from start.
If Germans slowly provoked every country to hit them first, they would be considered as "good" guys for a long time,and lotof shit they did wouldnt be judged as it was.

I believe to an extent they knew they gonna get hit on PH but believed that Japs wouldnt be as succesful as they were.
Thats the thinb with geopol, one small mistake and 100.000 people lose their lives likd that, politicians only look at the big picture.

>>1795843
Unsourced wikipedia entry about some Yugosquatter.

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_Harbor_advance-knowledge_conspiracy_theory
A wiki article whose purpose is to show that conspiracy theories exist. What is this supposed to prove?

>>1795756
Maybe if you're an idiot.

>>1795437

>Many people believe Roosevelt knew the Japanese were about to attack Pearl Harbor

Many people also believe in Bigfoot. And frankly, there is more evidence for Bigfoot.

>>1795668
>reds retake rostov after classic move
This just sounds silly.

>>1795853
It still doesn't make any sense for the USA to sacrifice most of their fleet in order to be at war...since they are already when they're attacked.

>>1795437
>The government knew 9/11 was going to happen, but let it happen, to advance their agenda.

Nothing ever changes.

>>1795453
There were two army divisions stationed there. US obviously thought it was necessary to reinforce it against a potential attack.

>>1795681
>muh oil embargo Japan dindu nuffin

Did you ever stop to think and wonder why there was an embargo in the first place? Maybe because Japan was ravaging east Asia?

>>1797445

>Most of their fleet

Lol! HAHAHA GOOD one.

Really now.

The Japanese were really retarded thinking they could destroy the entire American fleet in one battle.

>>1795681
>The natural conclusion to such a question would be America must still be doing something.
The American public was well aware that the United States Government was levying an embargo on Japan for invading the sovereign nation of China. And even if they didn't know, "you won't sell us oil" is still not grounds to invade another country.

>>1798181

Not him, but it was actually over the Japanese invasion of French Indo-China, not the war in China itself (although the two are related, given that one of the major reasons Japan was interested in Indo-China was to stop trade and arms going into China, and also to flank the Chinese positions in Guangxi)

>>1795437
He thought it would be at midway or some shit.

>>1795437
It's getting easier to believe because of recent events in politics.
They can't pass it off as 'paranoia' anymore.
People are starting to look into other things that they passed off as 'conspiracy theories'

>>1797699
What makes you think American president gave a single fuck for the personal well being of Asians?
Do you forgot how much they enjoyed killing Asians in the Korean War and Vietnam War as well? Americans don't discriminate with their discrimination.

>>1798599
There's such a thing as nuance, you know. If you think any country is a monolith, especially throughout the ages, then you're a moron.

There's also business interests to consider.

>>1798609
Those wars were very short in space. There's no need for them to be a monolith.
1940, 1950, 1960.

The Korean War and Vietnam War had massive civilian casualties.
Korean War: Total civilians killed/wounded: 2.5 million (est.)[14]
Vietnam War: Total civilian dead: 847,000–2,500,000**

'The first major U.S. strategic bombing campaign against North Korea, begun in late July 1950, was conceived much along the lines of the major offensives of World War II.[299]'
'Overall, the U.S. dropped 635,000 tons of bombs—including 32,557 tons of napalm—on Korea, more than they did during the whole Pacific campaign of World War II.[303][304]'

'The U.S. dropped over 7 million tons of bombs on Indochina during the war—more than triple the 2.1 million tons of bombs the U.S. dropped on Europe and Asia during all of World War II, and more than ten times the amount dropped by the U.S. during the Korean War. 500,000 tons were dropped on Cambodia, 1 million tons were dropped on North Vietnam, and 4 million tons were dropped on South Vietnam. On a per capita basis, the 2 million tons dropped on Laos make it the most heavily bombed country in history'

>>1798654
>3 decades
>very short in space

So you are a moron, okay. No need to copypaste basic history.

There's such a thing as nuance, historical context, shifting alliances, business interests, ideology, etc. Obviously "America just hates asians mmmkay", makes perfect sense.

>>1795437
Also, even if Roosevelt deliberately lost all those ships in Pearl Harbor, it doesn't really change anything. The Japanese still attacked a US base and declared war and no crazy conspiracy theory can shift the blame for it on the US

>>1798679
It's less than half a fucking lifetime.

And no, I wasn't saying that, you misunderstand somewhere. I was saying America didn't attack Japan to 'save' Asia. They don't give a shit about Asian people.
Yes, it was purely a political/business move.

>>1798212
>They can't pass it off as 'paranoia' anymore.
No, but it's still a very retarded theory.

Roosevelt wanted war.
I think that's pretty clear from everything we know.
Also, same thing happened in the UK, Churchill wanted war, so he tried to get Hitler to bomb them. It's believed the focus was the main force pushing Churchill.
It is easier to.convince the public a reaction to an attack is needed rather than convincing the idea of an action.

>>1799986
>It is easier to.convince the public a reaction to an attack is needed
It's still doesn't make any sense. If the Japanese attack, they are at war, they don't need to sacrifice their fleet.

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>>1795807
>This is the dumbest thing I read all day. However the day is still young.

I like you.

>>1795437

On the contrary.

There was a need to have those battleships destroyed and with them the obsolete battleship doctrine and all the old fashioned navy officers that held too much power and were holding back the new officers that strongly called for carrier groups doctrine.

At that point, keeping those battleships would have strategically been more damaging than losing them.

Secondly, the general public opinion was extremely isolationist. There were many pro-nazis, Lindbergh nearly won the elections and the unitedstatian people simply didn't want to get involve in a war against the Axis allies. Roosevelt had already been giving underhand a lot of money and military materiel to the Brits, and had tried his best to provoke a military incident with Germany and Japan. US warships f.i had been escorting british convoys halfway in the Atlantic. That was aclear and present belligerant action on the part of the USA against as they had, in adaddition, orders to strike against German submarines on the spot and protect british merchantmen. As a result of these provocations one US Navy destroyer was torpedoed by an U-boot in the North Atlantic, near the coast of Iceland. What the hell was an american destroyer doing that far in the Atlantic? Following the standing warmongering orders of FDR to harass german subs and protect brit convoys.

Still, for FDR's despair, none of his induced incidents and provocations proved capable of swaying public opinion in his favour towards open war. It came apparent that he needed something big, some truly shock and awe event, to catalyze the unitedstatian people into rage and complete obedience to his personal designs; Pearl Harbor.

>>1800079
>At that point, keeping those battleships would have strategically been more damaging than losing them.
Which is why those battleships sunk were repaired, even though it costed a lot of money.

>>1795756
>hurr durr

USS Maine was an accident.

>>1795437

Day of Deceit
Robert Stinnett
2001

Liberals do not like this book

>>1795453

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_O._Richardson

people can guess

>>1799986
>Also, same thing happened in the UK, Churchill wanted war, so he tried to get Hitler to bomb them.


You do realize Churchill only became PM once the war started, right?

>>1798934

>Yes, it was purely a political/business move.

Does any country do anything for any other reason other than material gain?

>>1799986

Chamberlain was PM you fucking idiot.

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>>1795437

FDR didn't just know the attacks were coming, he aggressively encouraged them with both oil embargoes (considered an act of war) as well as previous confrontations between US and Japanese forces in China (including the sinking of USS Panay).

Public support in 1941 for a military intervention against Nazi Germany was increasing, but still far from unanimous. Support for an intervention against Japan.

Pearl Harbor served two purposes.

First, it would by default enrage the public into supporting a war against Japan. Second, because of Japan's alliance with Nazi Germany (along with Hitler's foolish decision to declare war on the U.S. immediately after Pearl Harbor) was the final catalyst to drum up support for a war in Europe.

The U.S. was already in a covert state of semi-hostilities with the Axis with ramped up war production, sale of arms (including warships) to Britain, and the Soviet Union, as well as the Tizard Mission (Britain shipping it's design plans for the Atomic Bomb to the US) in 1940, Pearl Harbor was simply the final catalyst to make U.S. involvement official.

>>1797699
Embargo was there because Japan occupied French Indonesia. US didn't care all that much about what Japan was doing in China.

>>1800079
All but two of those battleships were raised and repaired, and saw extensive use.

>>1802737
>he aggressively encouraged them with both oil embargoes (considered an act of war)
Oh boy this meme again

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>>1802737
>oil embargoes (considered an act of war)

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>>1797445

>sacrifice most of their fleet

Most of the fleet at Pearl Harbor actually survived the attack (including all but one of the submarines). Only three Battleships (Arizona, Utah, and Oklahoma) were total losses and all of them were borderline/outright obsolete (Utah was actually scheduled for scrapping the following year). The US Navy was already building the new massive Iowa-class battleships and was shifting the focus to a carrier-based fleet with battleships in a secondary role.

>>1800134

Most of the ships at Pearl Harbor did not receive significant enough damage to make them write-offs. Also the battleship was not entirely obsolete. They were still very useful for both shore bombardment and attacking enemy warships, so long as they were protected from the air.

>>1802748
>Embargo was there because Japan occupied French Indonesia.
Which Japan occupied because the US was selling weapons to the Kuomintang (Chinese Nationalists) through there.
"In 1940 Japan invaded French Indochina in an effort to embargo all imports into China, including war supplies purchased from the U.S. This move prompted the United States to embargo all oil exports"

>US didn't care all that much about what Japan was doing in China.
Quite wrong:
"The outbreak of the Second Sino-Japanese War in 1937 saw aid flow into the Republic of China, from the United States under President Franklin D. Roosevelt. A series of Neutrality Acts had been passed in the US with the support of isolationists who forbade American aid to countries at war. Because the Second Sino-Japanese War was undeclared, however, Roosevelt denied that a state of war existed in China and proceeded to send aid to Chiang."

"In their final proposal on November 20, Japan offered to withdraw its forces from southern Indochina and not to launch any attacks in southeast Asia provided that the U.S., Britain, and the Netherlands ceased aiding China and lifted their sanctions against Japan.[10] The American counterproposal of November 26 (the Hull note) required Japan to evacuate all of China, without conditions, and to conclude non-aggression pacts with Pacific powers."

>>1802737
>First, it would by default enrage the public into supporting a war against Japan.
Again, this is dumb. If Japan goes at war against the USA, they don't need a devastating blow like Pearl Harbor.

>>1802858
>and was shifting the focus to a carrier-based fleet with battleships in a secondary role.
No, that happened during the war, because the US had to improvise new tactics. The superiority of the big carriers were proven during the war. But even some big battles like Guadalcanal were regular battleships against battleships.

>>1797483
...or they wanted to station them in a place where they could be rapidly embarked on ships and moved east. The easternmost territory the US held that had the facilities to support a large body of men without them risking being cut off in the event of war being... hawaii.


Oh, and it was utterly impossible for japan to actually invade hawaii, but sure anon. You've discovered the key to the conspiracy.

ARMY DID PEAL HARBOR

>>1802737
Embargoes are not an act of war.

You clearly don't know what an embargo is.

Why are you here?

>>1802394
>>1802422
UK wasn't involved in the war immediately.
Originally Hitler wanted to ally with England.
Read a timeline for god sakes.

>>1805040
Also, while.England immediately declared war, there was no action immediately taken until the Blitz, which happened while Churchill was in.power.

>>1795911
>Yugosquatter
Of course you mean a Abwehr/MI6 double agent spying on the Axis for the Allies which Ian Fleming used as inspiration for James Bond.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Du%C5%A1an_Popov#Personal_life

>>1802377
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_O._Richardson
>For ten years the U.S. Navy held "attacks" on the Army defenses at Pearl Harbor, and were always successful. Defending the base was rather hopeless, in his mind.[1]

>TEN YEARS
>ATTACKS ALWAYS SUCCESSFUL
>DEFENSE OF PEARL HARBOR HOPELESS

Hey guize let's leave the fleet there!

>>1805053
>>1805040

Except the North Sea Blockade, the Battle of the River Plate, the dispatching of the BEF to France, and the Norway expedition.

>>1802858
>The US Navy was already building the new massive Iowa-class battleships and was shifting the focus to a carrier-based fleet with battleships in a secondary role

THANKS JAPAN FOR HELPING US SCRAP OUR OLD SHIPS!