I have two questions. First, why was Protestantism, historically,

>>1786125
Protestants think ritual is something da paganz do despite the fact that they have their own stupid shit like speaking in tongues and pretending to have seizures.

>>1786148
The Old Testament is rife with ritual and ceremony.

Speaking in tongues is not really either, it's more verbal graffiti.

>>1786125
>First, why was Protestantism, historically, so very hateful of ritual and ceremony?
It's a rationalist, modernist attack on spirituality that claims everything outside it is superstition and the work of Satan at the same time. No, I'm serious.

>Second, why is secularism so poor as ritual and ceremony?
Lack of Confucianism.

>>1786161
While Confucianism is secular, Confucius isn't anti-religious really. He just says observe the rites appropriately and promptly goes back to worldly issues.

>>1786172
That's the point. Make your life, your social interactions, the whole society a big fat liturgy.

>>1786125
There was once a study on two separate groups of people with similar environments and ancestry but different lifestyles. One lived in close-knit villages and the other in more separated homesteads. One did more communal activities while the other kept more to their own families. And both believed in and practiced magic.

The villagers had a rigid form where exact pronunciation and material components were important while the homesteaders had a more lax approach. Apparently living closely among strangers in a collective society causes one to come up with rituals that are not easily shared or copied, while living with one's own family and somewhat isolated from other families relaxes one's approach to ritual.

The Mediterranean where Catholicism spent most of its life was very much a place where societies were organized in communal villages where everyone knew everyone else and secrets were hard to keep, while in the north where Protestantism got going people settled the frontier and individual family units were more autonomous.

Secularism, in an individualistic society, has a lax approach to ritual for the same reason. It's about making them easy to share with one's family.

>>1786125
>why was Protestantism

Already off track. "Protestantism" is not a religion, it is a description of many religions, some of which are related and some of which are not. If you want to ask about Presbyterians or something, do so.

>>1786692
I feel as though I have learned something.

>>1786692
So you're saying secularism makes people isolated from each other?

I'd also say that secularist individualism is not about the family, it's about being apart from the family.

>>1788469
Not him, but eliminating smaller-sized communities can be in the interest of both the State and corporations, to eliminate pressure groups, have less politically involved people demanding rights or even planning riots and revolutions, etc.

Divide and conquer all over again.

>>1788469
>So you're saying secularism makes people isolated from each other?
No, just that the societies where secularism currently flourishes in are that way. You can be secular but have plenty of rigid national and cultural rituals, but you'd likely have less isolation from community life. You can probably see this sort of divide in the modern separation of urban and suburban life.

>>1786692
This was actually informative. Good post.

Do you happen to know anything about the effect communal living versus homestead has on authority? More specifically, can we say homestead organization undermines monarchs? We had colonies for quite a while with Europe's monarchs intact, but that seems fundamentally different than something like American West.

>>1788614
I doubt I can extend it that far without just talking more out of my ass than usual. But there's probably some overlap with how Americans seem divided culturally between the rural and the urban.

>>1786125
It wasn't but in the time of the reformation it was the cool counter-current thing to do among the radical groups probably comprised of lots of youths. Most state sanctioned protestant denominations preserved many aspects of medieval Christian tradition but did away with things that where perceived as blatantly going against scripture such as Virgin Mary, angel, saint, and icon veneration and repetitious rosary prayers as well as the major issue of indulgences. Anglicanism is very Catholic looking externally but has a strongly reformed influenced theological core.

>>1788949
Also being a bare bones fundamentalist is simply easier to follow than taking part in more complex and convoluted ritual traditions which is why it has just as much potential for popularity as ritual traditions do given the right circumstances.