Why did Hector fight Patroclus (who he thought was Achilles)

>>1784508
Greek writing

>>1784508
Blame homer's autistic storytelling

>>1784508
He must have lost his nerve, knowing Achilles was really pissed off that he killed his best friend and stole his armor.

>>1784513
>>1784520
Hector was a really fucking good character until they decided to turn him into a pussy instead of letting him die in an honorable duel.

I think Linkin Park said it best:

>I tried so hard and got so far, but in the end it doesn't even matter

When people try really hard at something and come close to accomplishing their goals and then fail, a lot of the time they will lose any motivation to keep trying.

When he thought he killed Achilles he probably felt as though he had accomplished the impossible, when he realized it wasn't actually Achilles he probably just thought "what's the point?"

>>1784508
Both Achilles and Hector were left handed? Is that actually true in the book?

>>1784508

Probably something with the gleaming white armor and having more or less single-handedly routed the entire Trojan army and crashing through like a god. Just a guess.

The rage of Achilles was terrifying. He wasn't just a skilled warrior. Achilles was a skilled warrior who could go full berseker on the battlefield.

It was both the source of his strength and his tragic flaw, like the cleverness and resulting pride of Odysseus.

>>1784606

How exactly was it a tragic flaw? Besides, the main story of the Iliad is how he overcomes his pride and rage and learns to accept Agammemnon as his leader despite the latter's lesser personal merits.

>>1784529
Yeah Hector was my fav until he totally bitched out. Though I think at that point Hector knew how fucked he was so I guess it's understandable.

>>1784606
IMO Achilles' tragic flaw was his pride. I mean, he allowed the Trojans to nearly push the Greeks out of Troy and got his best friend killed just because Agamemnon insulted him a little bit.

>>1784730
Achilles lacked restraint or control. He created the situation with Patroclus, then desecrated the body of Hector. He misused his strength and engaged in barbarism.

>>1784781
Though afterward he returned the body to Priam

>>1784786
Just because Priam went to him to beg for his son's body and because Achilles was growing tired of dragging his body daily.

To me the Illiad is a sort of anti-war epic.

>>1784786
He also defended his countrymen after he let them be slaughtered. Acknowledging your wrongfulness at the last second and having the acknowledgement redeem you entirely is a Christian concept.

>>1784781

>Achilles lacked restraint or control.

Nonsense, he is extraordinarily self-possessed. Maybe he wants the wrong things, but he certainly has self-control.

>He created the situation with Patroclus,

Not really. He's hardly to know that Patrokles would go against his explicit instructions not to go pursuing the Trojans which leads directly to him getting in over his head.

>then desecrated the body of Hector.

So?

>He misused his strength and engaged in barbarism.

By whose standards? Yours?

But none of that demonstrates a tragic flaw. A tragic flaw comes back and causes the person to fail. Oedipus's ego and quick temper leads directly to him fulfilling the prophecy of killing his father and marrying his mother. Odysseus's egomania leads him to taunting a beaten Polyphemus and condemning himself to years away from home. Achilles's supposed rage doesn't lead to his death, nor does it lead to any sort of downfall; by the end of the work, he's on top of things. Plus, there's the fact that he very clearly does reconcile himself, and he does swallow his pride, which doesn't happen to a "tragic flaw".


>>1784798

Priam says just about the worst thing possible he could have said. He invokes a cost that Achilles and his father have already paid and asks for sympathy based on that. Yes, his giving the body back after that does show an actual and significant change.

>>1784823
Was Ajax's fatal flaw being a little bitch boy?

>>1784834
If you're talking Ajax the Greater, and his feud with Odysseus, I 'm not sure I would characterize that as classical tragedy at all.

But if you were, I would suppose that his tragic flaw was more akin to stupidity, or at least naivete; a belief that just because he was the better warrior, then Agamemnon would OF COURSE side with him.

>>1784849
What was Diomedes' flaw?

>>1784508
When he was in the ferocity of battle, he would just have killed whatever was in front of him. If he saw achilles and saw an opportunity, he would kill him.
But when achilles rolled up and challenged him, all pissed off and ready to roll, he shit himself like anybody else would

>>1784867
being too cool

>>1784508
I personally hate thinking that I have done something, only to be proven wrong, and having to do it all over again.

I'd run too desu.

Probably because to get to hector, achilles fucking cleaved his way through the trojan army with disconcerting ease and efficiency and with unmatched barbaric rage. I would be unnerved too.

>>1784867

Being too perfect

>>1784823
>Nonsense, he is extraordinarily self-possessed.

He spends the first 90% of the Iliad pouting like a child and the last 10% completely chimping out and fighting rivers and shit.

File: koffir.jpg (25KB, 250x201px) Image search: [Google]

25KB, 250x201px

>greek epic
>they didn't end up fucking eachother in the butt
wtf, I want my drachmas back

>>1787138
>He spends the first 90% of the Iliad pouting like a child and the last 10% completely chimping out and fighting rivers and shit.


More like standing up for his dignity and never wavering. It's the other guys around him, not Achilles, who always weep or jump for joy when the tide of battle turns against or for them. Achilles is just about the only guy (well, Hektor on the other side), who displays proper notions of adult emotional fortitude.

>>1784776
"Sing, o goddess, of the mighty rage of Peleus' son, Akilleus"

They explicitly mention this as the root of the entire problem of the Iliad. He was a salty fuck, admittedly somewhat rightfully so since Agammemnon tried to fuck him over several times, but caused many men to die because of his butthurt. Hubris doesn't necessarily equal pride. Arrogance is more accurate, but Achilles was more pissed off about his honor (loose moral sense here) and arête being tarnished rather than his personal pride. His rage was beserkerish, and allowed him many great battlefield victories, but it fucked over many allies and his cousin and Hector. He ultimately didn't stop being angry untill he realizes what a dick he was being and forgives Hector post mortem and is kind to Priam

>>1787156

Kek, the first phrase in the poem is literally "the chimpout of Achilles." It's not "emotional fortitude," it's pride and spite. He's a very teenage like character.

>>1787210

It's definitely pride, but it's a pride derived from actual ability; which is why he has such a problem with Agammemnon who has his own pride and authority which was gained from birth.

Yes, he's mad a whole lot of the time, but he doesn't pout; the Iliad again and again shows him as more self-possessed than most of the Achaeans.

>>1787246

Not more "self-possessed," more selfish.

>>1787268

That too, but more self-possessed. Most of the other mainland Greeks show a lot more external emotion than Achilles does. They cry, they whoop, they caper, they punch assholes like Thersites. Achilles sits in his tent and refuses to fight, but he never has an outburst like that. When people like Patrokles, or the delegation headed by Nestor come to him, it's often him getting them to calm down rather than the other way around. It's very much a cold rage until Patrokles gets killed. He is definitely self-possessed.

>>1787284

It's called sulking, anon, and it's not a sign of emotional maturity.