Tell me about the Satanic Verses. Aren't they the 'smoking

>>1755730

Perhaps he wasn't making things up on the fly, but he certainly tried to accommodate Meccan beliefs.

There's theory that Islam was initially a hodgepodge of monophysite Christianity and Arabian traditional beliefs and transmuted into strict monotheism only after Muhammad moved to Medina.

>>1757118
My theory is that Islam as we know it has little in common with Muhammad's teachings. Same is with christianity and any other major religion.

>>1757118
Doesn't the Koran state that Christians believe that Mary is the third person of the Trinity? How could Islam be much influenced by Christianity when Mahound got even the rock bottom basics of Christian theology so totally wrong in an obvious factual error?

I think Islam has a lot more in common with Phariseeism. My guess is that Mahound was a high-functioning sociopath who was vaguely acquainted with Christianity, but much more familiar with Phariseeism. In order to secure his own social status within his tribe and later to manipulate his nascent Saracens into fighting a bloody war of conquest, Mahound reworked his Arabian paganism into the mold of Phariseeism. The one thing he definitely stole from Christianity was its global outlook, which allowed him to ape Christianity's successful expansionism.

So I'd say that Islam is Arabian paganism reformed along the lines of Phariseeism, but reworked to be a more complete inversion of Christianity in part by adopting its proselytism.

And that's not even considering the possibilities that Mahound's "Gabriel" was really Satan, and overlooking the fact that Mahound's followers doctored his teachings to suit their own agendas.

>>1758210
>Doesn't the Koran state that Christians believe that Mary is the third person of the Trinity?

Lol, it does say so. However, that's more likely an influence of folk Christianity, far away from any intellectual centre.

>>1755730
But anon

Why would a middle-eastern semite run around claiming to talk to supernatural beings?

I think it's hilarious how Muslims blindly accept the awkward inclusion of Arabian folk spirits like Djinn despite them never being referenced anywhere in the Bible or Talmud

>>1760082

Well, or certainly benefited him a lot.

>>1755730
Islam was written down and organized after Muhammad died, by jewish theologians from conquered roman provinces.
He wasn't "making it up", he was just preaching desert folklore which existed for centuries before him, and later it was collected and cropped to be a proper empire building religion like the romans had, in the same style and model, of course fit for the culture of the arab people.

Christianity was "created" in a similar fashion, by getting all the folklore and cults together in the palace, and keeping them under guard for days, until they "agree" on one set of rules, which was of course ensured to be useful to the emperor and the roman empire.

Organized religion always is a political tool first, and mysticism distant second. Prophets have less to do with it than politicians/bureaucrats/lawyers who were there to organize it.

>>1757118
>hodgepodge of monophysite Christianity and Arabian traditional beliefs
More like aryan christianity, or other weird movement Sergius belonged to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahira
>>1758210
>Doesn't the Koran state that Christians believe that Mary is the third person of the Trinity? How could Islam be much influenced by Christianity when Mahound got even the rock bottom basics of Christian theology so totally wrong in an obvious factual error?
Mo probably met these guys:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collyridianism

>>1758210
>How could Islam be much influenced by Christianity when Mahound got even the rock bottom basics of Christian theology so totally wrong in an obvious factual error?

How can you use modern christianity when talking about events 1500 years ago? There were indeed such cults.

>>1755730
Does anyone else think Al-`Uzzá is really cute?

>>1760237
>More like aryan christianity, or other weird movement Sergius belonged to:

Isn't that story a blatant fabrication? This trope is ubiquitous.

>>1760241
When in the past 1500 years was Mary generally affirmed to be a person of the Trinity?

>>1757118
>>1758210
>>1758054
Muhammed was an illiterate nestorian preacher who got a bit carried away. The Quran itself was written decades after his death

>>1760587
>generally

We still can't talk about christianity generally, as there are multiple very popular cults that disagree on things.
And back in the day you certainly couldn't, since there were hundreds of such popular cults based on geographical and cultural borders.

>>1760144
Have you read the descriptions of what was left in his house when he died he was poor as hell since he ran soup kitchens out of his house. If you think that's historically suspect then you have even more reason to disbelieve the Satanic verses story which is from one source and only one account that is generally discounted.

>>1760600
you know that it's impossible for a rich - noble family merchant to be illiterate, right?

>>1760308
Yes anon, you're not alone on this.

>>1755730
>Aren't they the 'smoking gun' that Muhammad was making things up on the fly?

You mean apart from the fact that he was a merchant warlord who claimed the Archangel Gabriel came to him and dictated the entire Koran to him in Classical Arabic?

>>1760600
His tribe was Jewish. At least the high ranking people were

>>1760667
His father-in-law was a nestorian

>>1760685
Islam is much closer to Judaism than it is to Christianity

>>1760687
They don't think Jesus is in hell tho

>>1760308
I wanna fuck her pussy

>>1760648
Source that Muhammad was poor? By all accounts he was a rich merchant warlord with many livestock, wives, slaves and private armies. Being illiterate didn't necessarily mean being poor back then.

>>1760648
>ran soup kitchens

That doesn't mean he was poor. In fact, he was a warlord who swam in pussy, so he was most likely pretty well-off by Arab standards.

>Hubalist Arabia
>not a million times more awesome than Islamic Arabia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhUnsqWqGOA

>>1755730
The quran used to say that allah took all the good women for himself, and left the rest to fend for themselves with the remainder.

The entire quran is nothing but satanic verses; allah is satan.

>>1758210

Probably saw a depiction of mother and child and dove, and did not know that the dove was supposed to be the Holy Spirit.

>>1761331
Allah is alpha af

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>>1761328
It's fascinating how sophisticated was the pre-Islamic Arabian civilization. Yet it gets continuously disregarded because modern-day Arabs see everything pre-Islamic as evil. Even today the Saudis bulldoze whatever remnants of old civilization get unearthed.

>>1761380
Yup. Leader of the rebellion against God Himself.

That rebellion lasted one half of one heartbeat before it was destroyed.

I'll stick with the guy who walked out of his grave, as he said he would.

>>1761380

He looks more like an enormous attention whore.

>>1761398
Kek
>>1761403
They go hand in hand

>>1760653
the arabic script was still in its infancy and Muhammad married into a rich family him being a bastard and all
see how he said his mother can not be forgiven by ALLAHU

>>1760241
Trinitarianism isn't a modern idea. The concept has been the core theological concept of Christianity since Christ's ministry, as clearly evident in the Gospels and the rest of the New Testament. The Church Fathers elaborated on the concept in extrabiblical writings starting in AD 110, and heresies against the increasingly developed doctrine of the Trinity started to become grounds for formal excommunications from the Church in AD 269.

>>1760609
Heretics aren't Christians. Collyridianism in no way represents orthodox Christian theology like the Koran states it does.

>>1761397
Christianity came to baptize pagan cultures. Islam came to burn them.

>>1761789
The Christian Roman Empire was indeed known for its religious tolerance.

As were other Christian powers of the middle ages like Charlemagne's Empire and Catholic Spain.

Let's not even mention the whole crusades thing.

Islam was instituted in an effort to consolidate the disparate peoples and cultural traditions of the Middle East under one unified religious structure that integrated key aspects of everything it was assimilating.

It's the exact same concept as Catholicism and it's marriage of Christianity and European paganism. Many say that Muhammad learned how to create this kind of matrix of thought from Catholic theologians.

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>>1761776
You may insist that your denomination is correct but it doesn't change the fact that Christianity was quite diverse in its beginnings.

There was back then, and still remains today, a lot of wacky syncretism going on where it spread.

>>1761776
Always love bumping into people on a higher level than I am. Thanks for posting.

If you go to the Middle East you'll find that they don't know ANYTHING about the OT prophets aside from "oh yeah Mohammed said he's cool"

>>1758054
What in particular is different from Muhammad's teachings.

>>1762397
They know Ibrahim and Ishmail.

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>>1761789

>>1755730
>Aren't they the 'smoking gun' that Muhammad was making things up on the fly?
Well that, and the very situationally-convenient verses about taking multiple women as wives, rape of prisoners wives, and rape of little girls.
Mohamed is a ancient arabian Joseph Smith.. making stuff up in solitude where no one can verify because "he is the chosen one". That's not how Prophets work.

>>1761334
It's a heretical icon, the Holy Spirit is not a dove.

>>1762561
Maybe you should read a Quran instead of going on "wiki islam"

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>>1761328
but hubohomo doesn't get you pic related

>>1762512
How convenient that the Arabs would "correct" the story!

Oh no, it was actually ISHMAEL: father of the Arabs who Abraham REALLY loved more

>>1762561
>there exist millions of people who obey the words of a known con man

>>1762571
Aye, but the uninitiated would have no idea what the dove was supposed to be an icon of. Hence the lack of any knowledge of the Holy Spirit in Islam.

>>1762626

I would much more recommend answeringislam; islam is a mess.

>>1762662
I think it's more of a reliance upon the firstborn being the one who inherits. Ishmael is Abraham's first born son.

But there are many instances in the bible where the elder son does not inherit, and his younger brother does. Jacob and Esau, and Joseph's sons Ephraim and Manasseh come to mind.

The crucial distinction is that Ishmael was born to Abraham and Hagar out of the flesh, and Isaac was born to Abraham and Sarah out of faith.

The Lord could not be more clear. The son of the handmaiden, Hagar, would not inherit the Kingdom of God.

>>1762673
Where are the quotes from the Qur'an from that say what you assume?

>>1762685
I think it's sura 4-157

>>1762626
I'm sorry, was that a rebuttal? Mohamed claims allah (Satan) allows such things, right around when such questions are brought to him. Even Aisha says its suspicious.

>>1762130
Christianity is not an action-based religion, it is faith-based.

You are not Christian if your beliefs are radically different from Christianity. If a sect is more similar to the mythology of William Blake than scripture, it isn't Christianity.

>>1762735
Trust the wife to get in a snide "Gee, sure seems like your god appears rather quickly when you need a new revelation do do what you want".

>>1762741
This. All religions try to get people to clean themselves, improve themselves, act right, do good, avoid evil; this is all the way satan takes people to hell. Nobody but Jesus can get into heaven this way.

Hence the need for salvation being a gift offered by a loving, gracious and merciful God, instead of the punishment we all deserve.

>>1762746
God's love is infinite and awesome, something that the entity that Muslims worship - Satan, or a demon at the least - does not express.. only submission and worship.

>>1762735
>Even Aisha says its suspicious.

That's interesting. Any reference to a particular Hadith?

>>1762397
>>1762397
>OT prophets

Those are Meccan deities whom Muhammad incorporated into his religion as "Allah's daughters" and later expunged them claiming that it was Satan who dictated those verses. Thus the name "Satanic verses".

>>1761789
>Christianity came to baptize pagan cultures
Holy fuck the delusion of christians.
Protip, most of the destruction of Temples in Egypt, were done by Copts, way before muslims came.

>>1762774
>Sahih Bukhari (60:311)
>"I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires."

These words were spoken by Aisha within the context of her husband having been given 'Allah's permission' to fulfill his sexual desires with a large number of women in whatever order he chooses. (It has been suggested that Aisha may have been speaking somewhat wryly).

>>1762723
It's likely to be blown out of proportion by people today. 600 AD it's a different story to have sex with a female captive but it's one of those things that people will take advantage of.

And surely Allah is testing those, who keeps true to one verse but fails on the other.

> Abu Sirma said to Abu Sa’id al Khadri (Allah he pleased with him): 0 Abu Sa’id, did you hear Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) mentioning al-’azl? He said: Yes, and added: We went out with Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi’l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing ‘azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah’s Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born. (Sahih Muslim 3371)

It is "permitted" but there is no "here is what happens at the day of ressurection" rather just says "there is a day of ressurection"

>>1761096
>>1761311
There are many hadith to this effect.
Narrated 'Aisha: A complete month would pass by during which we would not make a fire (for cooking), and our food used to be only dates and water unless we were given a present of some meat. (Bukhari Volume 8, Book 76, Number 465)

Narrated 'Amir bin Al-Harith: Allah's Apostle (Prophet Muhammad) did not leave a Dinar or a Dirham or a male or a female slave. He left only his white mule on which he used to ride, and his weapons, and a piece of land which he gave in charity for the needy travelers. (Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 738)

I couldn't find the specific one about his house at death. But he didn't benefit much economically from the conquests since he gave most of it away.

Also vote for this
https://presidentialopenquestions.com/questions/4696/vote/

>>1762803
>>1762803
>"I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires."

Literally like Joseph Smith.

>>1762814
ISIS individuals are very pious Mohammedans, then, by raping their captives.

>>1762836
Yep, as mentioned >>1762561

>>1758054
When have the teachings of Christ been changed? There are transcripts dating to pre 70 AD.

>>1762741
The definition of "Christian" was not concrete at this time. But I expect I'm debating an article of faith at this point and won't get through to you.

>>1762838
>Mohammedans
You are not an 18th century priest so stop pretending to be.

>>1762863
I'm not, but their worship of Mohamed is evident in their behavior, beyond veneration. Clearly they do not worship God.

>>1762838
That is not Islam.

>“And successful are the believers who guard their chastity … except from their wives or those that their right hands possess.”

They are being tested.

>>1762867
>Mary Worshipers

>>1762893
>Qur’an 33:50—O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war ...

That's exactly Islam.

>Sahih Muslim 3371—We went out with Allah’s Messenger on the expedition to the Bi’l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing azl (withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah’s Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah’s Messenger, and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born.

>Sunan Abu Dawud 2150—The Apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: “And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.” That is to say, they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting period.

The whole Satanic Verses incident is probably a fabrication perpetuated by subjugated Christians. If the incident were true, then we would expect to see more and stronger narrations in Hadith collections. It doesn't make sense that Muhammad would just one day decide to omit the verse several years later, well after the conflicts and conquering of Mecca. His endeavor to convert the pagans would have also been a great deal more successful, as the Meccans would be willing to accept his prophethood of he conformed to their belief system; but the muhajirun in Yathrib were few. It was only with the conquering of Mecca that most of the pagans converted, and Sunnis and Shias alike would say many of them apostasized after Muhammad's death.

>>1762937
It doesn't say "rape"

>The reference is about sexual relations, which are forbidden with any woman unless she is a spouse or ‘those their right hands possess’. To be clear, this means a concubine, bondmaid or a slave, butintercourse has to be consensual. Rape is forbidden as it is violent, and Islamic texts legislated for the proper and honourable treatment of slaves.

Beaides, you are talking about culture from 600AD, where having female captives in this manner was "appropriate", but it is not rape, because the women consented. Sure, it is not acceptable today, but you are looking at different cultural standards.

Also, there is a waiting period before they are made clean to be slept with. It is clear that Americans and "ISIS" are meme ing the shit out of those verses, and both of them clearly don't understand

>>1762970
>Besides, you are talking about culture from 600AD, where having female captives in this manner was "appropriate"
The problem is that this culture you apologize for is the end-all-be-all perfection of man according to Islam. That's quite an issue.

>but it is not rape, because the women consented.
Where is that? Just like the Yazidis and "apostates" consented to ISIS? Clearly.

>Sure, it is not acceptable today, but you are looking at different cultural standards.

Not relevant, not a defense.

>>1762992
I'm not apologizing. The people who rape others apologize. Muhammed doesn't say "rape them because Allah said" but he says "you can have the captives" and it is after consent only they can have them "their right hand". Muhammed says "for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born." And what he says is as important as what he doesn't say which is the consequences for the action. He says "everyone will be born up again" but he does not say "rape brings salvation" but he says "it is okay to take female captives as your own"

Again, 600AD, Muslims were not the only people sex trafficking. Same with today. You are so quick to call out ISIS and Islam, but you won't ever consider America sex trafficking in secret?

>>1762970
In this period were slavery was common, as was having sex with slaves, consensual or not. There is nothing in the Quran or Ahadith which prohibits the rape of slaves. It is difficult to imagine that it would be impermissible, considering that given the choice, most female slaves would not likely have sexual relationships with their masters.

>>1763042
>Again, 600AD, Muslims were not the only people sex trafficking. Same with today. You are so quick to call out ISIS and Islam, but you won't ever consider America sex trafficking in secret?

The difference is that with Islam, the rape of slaves and sex trafficking are mandated, and thus cannot be abolished or otherwise opposed. Sex trafficking is illegal in America, and legal under Islam.

>>1763043
>>1763051

All of these practices are pre-Islamic.

>Furthermore this isnot an entitlement.Concubinage and interpersonal relations with various bondmaids/slaves was already occurring at the time the Quran came about and subsequent passages list restrictions as a starting point to help to bring about the end of slavery. In any case, marriage was encouraged (Chapter 24:32) with slaves.

Marriage with the slaves is encouraged


>In fact, slavery was never endorsed by Islamic texts; rather it was something inherited from pre-Islamic cultures (pre-600s) that needed to be voluntarily and gradually weeded out of society through manumission, which was highly encouraged (Chapters 24:32-33 & 16:71). Islamic texts list a plethora of avenues to free slaves, as it was seen as a highly virtuous act. It’s difficult to find any references on how tomake slavesout of people; rather the focus is always on ending slavery.

>>1763042
>Again, 600AD, Muslims were not the only people sex trafficking. Same with today. You are so quick to call out ISIS and Islam, but you won't ever consider America sex trafficking in secret?

Strawman, see what this anon said >>1763051
, apologist.

Also, references in Islamic texts about slavery don’t apply any longer for a modern age given that slavery has been officially bannedinternationally since 1948. There is widespread consensus across all nations on this, including Muslims ones. There’s no desire among ordinary Muslims to drag humanity backwards into slavery, especially when there was a clear agenda in key Islamic texts to eventually eradicate it.

>worldwide abolishment of slavery
>Muslim countries also agree upon it

So the "ISIS" is not Islam because Muslims already agreed on worldwide abolishment of slavery. They are being counter productive as is the American population believing every lie they are being told by the media about Islam

>>1763074
I'd rather read the Qur'an than "what anon said" because none of you guys even consider how many Muslims are doing what they can to restore their religion.

>>1763042
Sex trafficking in the modern USA is both illegal and rare as fuck contrary to what some people will tell you.

>>1763081
None have the right to declare what Allah, his prophet, and Ahl-ul-Bayt have made permissible as impermissible. Geopolitics cannot abbrogate Sharia, otherwise, what else will you abolish to appease the world?

>>1763091
Yeah it's illegal, but that doesn't mean you have people who follow that law. It's just well hidden because it's illegal.

>>1763095
When people take into consideration what Allah says now, then they can understand what needs to be done and what needs to be reformed. If religion was perfect, Jesus and Muhammed wouldn't have to come back and fix it.

>>1763072
So? They are retained by Islam, it makes no difference. And that Islam encourages marriage with slaves does not negate the permissibility of slave rape. A man with four wives has no option to marry his slave, yet it is permissible to have sex with them.

>>1763081
>Also, references in Islamic texts about slavery don’t apply any longer for a modern age given that slavery has been officially bannedinternationally since 1948.
Are you saying that a man-made law abrogates the "literal word of God". the Quran? Not according to Islam.

>There is widespread consensus across all nations on this, including Muslims ones.
Then why is Sharia the official law of Muslim nations such as Pakistan and Saudi Arabia?

>There’s no desire among ordinary Muslims to drag humanity backwards into slavery, especially when there was a clear agenda in key Islamic texts to eventually eradicate it.

Where is that citation in the Koran? A non-abrogated one.

>>1763089
>I'd rather read the Qur'an than "what anon said" because none of you guys even consider how many Muslims are doing what they can to restore their religion.

Then why this entire post? >>1763081

Human trafficking and modern sex slavery is, after all, not just a ‘Muslim’ issue, it’s even happeningright under our noses in the UKby all sorts of perpetrators. Therefore let’s promote those devout Muslims like Zainab Bangura who work hard to empower victims of Isis’ sexual violence and slavery, as well as those women seeking justice for having been forced intosex slavery elsewhere in the world.

The majority of sane, law-abiding Muslims do notseek to impose themselveson others by force or aggression. They don’t even need me to explain passages in the Quran as they’re not interested in keeping a female slave to rape or ‘humiliate’…

>>1763098
Muhammad was khatam-ul-nabuwat, his revaltion is the measure of all things. There is no room for "reform", at least of the type you advocate.

>>1763095
If "Allah" (Satan) says such things, why does he always contradict himself? Saying the Gospels and Torah are corrupted on one hand, yet telling Muslims that the Christians and Jews are to follow those books, not the Koran?
It is not the word of God, but Satan or a demon demanding absolute obedience.

Did the religion appear before the Caliphate like in the traditional view, or was if only formed several hundred years in during the Abbasid Caliphate in a more revisionist view?

I get the sense that somehow like Muhammad couldn't have been just a fraud and he probably had to buy in to what he was selling to some extent to do the things he did.

>>1763096
Oh what little of it exists is well hidden, but the absurd claims of hundreds of thousands or millions of sex slaves being brought into this country are as unverifiable as they are absurd.

Stop listening to puritan imbeciles.

>>1762970

Sure, sure. Was there someone watching the tribesmen every day to make sure they didn't rape their slaves? Was someone watching to make sure they and their families didn't rape and beat the slaves on a daily basis?

In Saudi Arabia today it is illegal to rape and beat servants, but it still happens. Illegality is not the same as it not being done.

>>1763100
>Are you saying that a man-made law abrogates the "literal word of God". the Quran? Not according to Islam.

God helped permit that law to pass. Why wouldn't you consider that?

>Where is that citation in the Koran? A non-abrogated one.

You need to realize every religious person is not trying to become the book they believe in, but they understand messages and live regular lives just like everybody else

>>1763109
I'm not a Muslim, I'm just arguing with whom I presume to be a Muslim or a Muslim apologist on their own level. Christianity is just as much a joke as Islam, but at least Christians aren't going around killing people en mass, and can generally live peaceably with non-believers.

>>1763107
Of course there is. Muhammed is not Allah, not are the followers of Allah, Allah. "ISIS" is not Allah. So why say these are perfect representations of Islam when none of them show themselves to be perfect?

>>1763109
Allah is not Satan.

>>1763113
Then stop listening to YouTube and 4chan to learn about Islam.

>>1763114
That means people choose to rape or not. Allah is simply testing and judging those who rape their slaves, wait for consent with their slaves, or don't have slaves at all because they actually understand what Allah is telling them.

>>1763118
Again, Islam is being infiltrated by "radical extremists"

>>1763115
>You need to realize every religious person is not trying to become the book they believe in, but they understand messages and live regular lives just like everybody else
>the book they believe in

Again, this is no "book", but according to Muslims it is the literal word of God. There is not "not believing" in it. It cannot be judged or rationalized by Western standards, nor as a "book". It cannot be ignored, nor altered according to Islam. Every part of it is "holy", but the verses to follow are the later ones that abrogate the former.

>>1763118
>but at least Christians aren't going around killing people en mass, and can generally live peaceably with non-believers.

Christianity is focused and based on the Resurrection of Christ and His teachings. It's basis and foundation are fundamentally different from that of Islam. Islam was spread by the sword, a promise of an easier life and worldly wealth upon conversion (easy taxes, first class citizenship, non-dhmmitude), and prejudice of minorities. Not miracles as was early Christianity.. who would convert rationally to a religion that promised only poverty, humility, and suffering?

>>1763126

If Allah is the enforcement mechanism, and rape of slaves is haram, but aren't sins removed and paradise already guaranteed by virtue of being a mujahideen?

You've basically admitted that the warriors who were just in it for the rape get away with it basically except in a metaphysical sense.

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>>1762822
>There are many hadith to this effect.

I'm going to refer to all folktales as 'hadith' from now on.
It's really the same thing. What's Arabic for "I cannot tell a lie" ?

>>1763126
If you believe this reform permissible, what else will you disavow to appease non-Muslims and your own Coca-Cola Islam world view? Get rid of the niqab? The jizya? The madhahib have not spent centuries debating what constitutes the Sunnah for you to abolish it.

>>1763126
>Allah is not Satan.

God is Love. "Allah" does not espouse love, but demands obedience only and doesn't grant mercy otherwise to those whom stray and sin, unlike God. That is how it is known that the Islamic "god" is not God.

Moreover, I've yet to hear proofs of Mohamed's prophet-hood, what miracles he performed.

>>1763132
Doesn't make your Levantine fairy tails true. The bible is filled with internal and external inconsistencies.

>>1763148
Who judges the validity of a religion based on it's supposed "miracles"? The Muslims allege that Muhammad preformed many miracles, but you don't believe them, but you believe those of Jesus. Miracles are not valid proof to any except those who witnessed them.

>>1763132
>Again, this is no "book", but according to Muslims it is the literal word of God. There is not "not believing" in it. It cannot be judged or rationalized by Western standards, nor as a "book". It cannot be ignored, nor altered according to Islam. Every part of it is "holy", but the verses to follow are the later ones that abrogate the former.

It is a book. Be real. If you want to bullshit someone, dont bullshit yourself. It's a book. It is a Holy Book. But not every single Muslim looks at it the same way like you think they do. It can be rationalized, it can be applied. But don't give me that bullshit that "I don't believe it but it's infallible" because every religion believes this, every religion has off sections.

>>1763133

>If Allah is the enforcement mechanism, and rape of slaves is haram, but aren't sins removed and paradise already guaranteed by virtue of being a mujahideen?

Why do you say you know so much about the subject, yet ask "if" and "wouldn't that mean"

>You've basically admitted that the warriors who were just in it for the rape get away with it basically except in a metaphysical sense.

No. I said people rape people because they choose to. Some people have "slaves" that consent to intercourse. Some people are sane, and don't have "slaves" because it's fucking 2016.

People need to understand everyone is accountable for their own actions. So if someone "rapes" in Allah's name, they will be face to face before God in judgment and only God will judge them. It doesn't say "rape and you will be saved" but Muhammed says "everyone is born again on the ressurection" giving NO answer to one's salvation or condemnation to sleeping with a female captive AFTER she consents. It does not say to rape here but after she consents and after the waiting period. Also this is 1400 years ago, live in the present .

>>1763143
Reform is possible with anything, and according to the Quran. Allah is all knowing and all wise, but what else is all knowing and all wise? Nothing, therefore everything can become reformed.

>>1763148
>God is Love
that certainly expains all those dead egyptian children

>>1763151
The Bible is Divinely inspired by the grace of God and the Holy Spirit and focuses on Salvation through Christ and His Crucifixion and Resurrection. This is in stark contrast to the Quran, which claims to be the absolute word of "god".

>>1763160
>Who judges the validity of a religion based on it's supposed "miracles"?
Because Islam claims Abraham heritage, it falls into the criteria of Prophethood of the Jewish Prophets.. performing miracles, a public revelations from God, pious conduct.. something Mohamed lacked.

>The Muslims allege that Muhammad preformed many miracles, but you don't believe them, but you believe those of Jesus. Miracles are not valid proof to any except those who witnessed them.
Again, see the prior answer.

>>1763162
>People need to understand everyone is accountable for their own actions. So if someone "rapes" in Allah's name, they will be face to face before God in judgment and only God will judge them.


But the same could be said about any action anywhere and any time. God is always watching, proverbially. So saying, "don't do this because God is watching" doesn't actually prevent anything. If it were sufficient there would be no punishments or penalties in the koran. God watching is the same as a tree falling in a forest if no one is there to listen.

>>1763148
>"Those who fear Allah when a thought of evil from Satan assaults them, Bring Allah into rememberered when lo! They see. 7:200

They are very distinct in the Quran, Allah and Satan. Allah is God. What you need to do is not watch YouTube Islam conspiracies and read a Quran. If you don't want to that's fine. You don't have to be a Muslim. But you also don't have to buy into everyone bullshit about "Islam is lel devil" because submission to God is not Satanic.

>>1763172
Allah entrusted Muhammad to his revelation, and to show mankind the way to be pleasing to the sight of god.

"Your companion does not err, nor does he go astray; Nor does he speak out of desire." Quran 53:2-3

"O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end." Quran 4:59

>>1763180
Blah blah blah. You sound no different than a Muslim saying "Islam is the one true and final religion! I know because Muhammad and the Quran say so!"

>>1763162
>It is a book. Be real. If you want to bullshit someone, dont bullshit yourself. It's a book. It is a Holy Book. But not every single Muslim looks at it the same way like you think they do. It can be rationalized, it can be applied. But don't give me that bullshit that "I don't believe it but it's infallible" because every religion believes this, every religion has off sections.

According to Islam, a Muslim accepts the Quran, as I said, as the literal word of God. If one does not, they are not a Muslim, but those who do not but claim to, are apostates and must be killed. One cannot approach this from a Western, rational perspective with outside standards. That's not how it works.

>>1763204
>One cannot approach this from a Western, rational perspective with outside standards.
You can't approach and religion from a rational perspective or else it all falls apart.

>>1763190
A false prophet by definition cannot announce the Word of God. His measurement for Prophet-hood is found in the Torah, since he claims linage from Abraham. Since it was not God speaking to him all alone in the cave, it was either a demon, his mind, or Satan, but not God. Satan is known to take the form of Messengers (Angels) and very well knows Scripture and God, but abhors Him.
Moreover, the Holy Spirit, Angels, God do not invoke feelings of wanting to kill oneself. Mohammed thought himself mad and tried to throw himself off a cliff upon his first contact.

>>1763220
>Moreover, the Holy Spirit, Angels, God do not invoke feelings of wanting to kill oneself.
prove it

>>1763209
One cannot rationalize God, as we cannot comprehend God. We are far too limited, no matter how we may progress.

>>1763193
It is obvious that it can be reformed. You don't need a Holy Book to figure that out.

It's like when a religious person uses their brain, everyone says "no, you scripture says this... you can't think for yourself or come to your own conclusions"

Muhammed is not Allah. Islam can be reformed.

>>1763204
>According to Islam, a Muslim accepts the Quran, as I said, as the literal word of God. If one does not, they are not a Muslim, but those who do not but claim to, are apostates and must be killed. One cannot approach this from a Western, rational perspective with outside standards. That's not how it works.

I am very sure that Muslims are open to discussions and disagreements meaning that they have different ideas of perfect. That is why there is Sunni and Shia, they aren't being "apostates" they just have different ideas.

>>1763209
Only from a non-religious perspective "religious people cannot be rational" when on the contrary, you can be very rational in the name of Allah, in the name of God. What is so hard to understand?

>>1763220
Muhammed wants to kill himself after being visited by an angel?

SOUNDS LIKE ABRAHAM ABOUT TO KILL HIS SON BECAUSE GOD TOLD HIM TO

That would make Abraham a false prophet too. God was well pleased after Abraham almost went through with it. Same with Muhammed, God tested him and was well pleased.

>>1763232
>Only from a non-religious perspective "religious people cannot be rational" when on the contrary, you can be very rational in the name of Allah, in the name of God. What is so hard to understand?
I didn't say you can't be both religious and rational, only that you can't be rational about your religion because religion has no basis in rationality.

>>1763224
>2 Timothy 1:7
>For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

>Romans 8:15
>For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

>Isaiah 41:10
>Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.

"Do not fear" is the message conveyed to the Prophets as the first are bestowed upon by the Grace of God and His Angels.

>>1763241
Religion has plenty of basis in rationality. You don't have to believe that it does, but you don't need to preach that it doesnt, because you can't only truly come to that conclusion through research and practice.

Like dude, obviously have your own opinions and stuff that's great, but no one wants to be told they aren't being rational. We all go to sleep at night. We all have our own stuff to take care of. You know

>>1763232
>That is why there is Sunni and Shia
Then your understanding is lacking. That rift was formed due to tribal politics. Both believe in the Quran being the absolute word of god.

>>1763250
Can** only truly come to that conclusion

>>1763250
>but no one wants to be told they aren't being rational.
Nobody wants to be told that they're incorrect either. Doesn'the change the facts.

>>1763238
>SOUNDS LIKE ABRAHAM ABOUT TO KILL HIS SON BECAUSE GOD TOLD HIM TO

Big difference, and that difference is that Abraham was displaying his faith and obedience to God. Mohamed was running off to kill him self out of fear and shame of being possessed by demons.

>>1763253
Even beyond that, it is human nature to come to disagreements. Even in Christianity even argues about what means whatnot and how what means what. Still considered the Absolute word of God people argue over meanings.


>They strike an example for you only to argue. Rather, they are a quarrelsome people.(43:58)

>>1762893
What their right hands possess is a reference to slaves and captured women in war.

>>1763259
Muhammed is still fulfilling a prophecy in the Bible.

>“I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and be thou a blessing: and I will bless them that bless thee, and him that curseth thee will I curse: and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

Muhammed is from Abraham's seed, so is Bahai, Bab, Judaism and Christianity as well as Islam. All are from the root of Abraham.

It is the same thing. Abraham almost killed his son, Muhammed almost killed himself.

>>1763262
>Still considered the Absolute word of God people argue over meanings.
see >>1763180

>>1763258
Still, practionersn many are very rational people.

>>1763267
After they are made clean, then they can be slept with, but they are not raped. Was there rape going on? Probably, and yet this practice has been going on well before Islam. However it says to wait in the Quran

>>1763250
>Like dude, obviously have your own opinions and stuff that's great, but no one wants to be told they aren't being rational.
I don't say that religion is irrational as an insult to religion. Love is irrational but that doesn't make it bad.

And no, religion has no basis in rationality. You can't deduce the existence of any god through logic, however hard you might try. The basis of religion is spirituality.

>>1763275
Again, I would rather read a Bible or Quran rather than "see this post".

>>1763284
I guess that's fine then.

>>1763285
Love is not irrational. Lust is irrational, love is a force of energy inherit in every living being.

You can deduce plenty of God through logic. Saying you can't means you can't but believing you can means you do. The basis of religion and spirituality is never defined by non-believers because they believe dictionaries, and do not believe the force of God

>>1763294
And slavery is no longer legal worldwide

>>1763284
>Still, practionersn many are very rational people
Sure. Most people can separate their professional and personal lives, so it's no surprise that they can also separate their religious and rational lives. The only real problem is when the former affects the later negatively.

>>1763271
>>“I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and be thou a blessing: and I will bless them that bless thee, and him that curseth thee will I curse: and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

God does not bless through worldly desires, war, and conquest. If that was the case, then Timurlane and the various Khans would be Saints and Christ would have preached as Mohamed did and slaughtered, not saved.
Moreover, since that verse is from the Torah, which Islam and Mohammed claim is corrupted, then how is that valid? It's a contradiction, furthering the falsehood of Islam, according to Islam itself.

>>1763290
Then do so, as I and many others have. Your statement was already answered in the thread.

>>1763306
It's actually more simple. What qualities do this person have? Oh they are religious? Oh they are rational? Cool that means they are religious and rational. Oh they don't seperate their rationalization from their God? Interesting.

>>1763307
>Moreover, since that verse is from the Torah, which Islam and Mohammed claim is corrupted, then how is that valid? It's a contradiction, furthering the falsehood of Islam, according to Islam itself.
"It's corrupted" isn't the same as "Literally everything in it is wrong"

>>1763311
>Oh they don't seperate their rationalization from their God?
When the two components are kept separate, it's fine. When the two are mixed, one of them has to give. Either God's domain is pushed beyond what rationality can establish (or is transformed into a more suitable form), or rationality is bent in order to accommodate or justify a non-rational, culturally-defined archaic God.

>>1763307
Islam is just as valid as Christianity and Judaism. Islam can call out how Judaism and Christianity have been corrupted, which they have. We can call out how Islam has been corrupted. It is all the same. Religion is corrupted by people. The Torah, the NT, Islam, all have been infiltrated.

>>1763318
Mix em up. Be rational and religious. It is not hard.

>>1763317
"Allah" and Mohamed said it is so, so it is. That can't be disputed with a Muslim, as to dispute the word of God is to apostatize.

A Muslim referencing the Gospels or Torah for proof of Islam is disproving Islam because Allah says that those books are corrupted, yet they are to be referenced for proof of Mohamed and Islam as true.

>>1763333
Everyone is an apostate. Everyone is a heretic. You can be the most devoted person to God. Someone will call you a heretic and someone will call you an apistate. Even people in your own faith, will attempt to deceive you, and they will have hate for you.

>>1763360
>Everyone is an apostate. Everyone is a heretic. You can be the most devoted person to God. Someone will call you a heretic and someone will call you an apistate. Even people in your own faith, will attempt to deceive you, and they will have hate for you.

I think you're glossing over the very central tenet of Islam, being that the Quran is the absolute word of God. A Muslim *cannot* go against that. Just as a Christian absolutely *must* accept Christ as the Word, the Son of God, Whom was crucified for us sinners and Resurrected for the forgiveness of our sins.

>>1763388
Of course the Quran is the revealed word of God, as is the Gospels. Yet there is this rumor that religious people cannot have different opinions. "Well that means they are not longer muslim because x y and z" and now they aren't Christians because "x y and z"

You can't say "Muslims can't believe in anything else" just to support your stance on what Muslims believe. "I say this about Islam and Muslims have to believe everything in the Quran, so what I say Muslims believe is true because..."

It doesn't work like that

>>1763484
Can Muslims be Trinitarian, then?

>>1763232
>it can be reformed.

Islam can't be reformed as long as Muslims believe that Quran is the literal word of God.

>>1763333
the quran says that you shall consult the older scriptures to gain knowledge. they might be corrupted, but some truth will persist and can be found by devout readers.

but hey, who cares about facts, we are on 4chan and the topic is badboogywoogyislamm uhhh

>>1766045
Ah, which verse abrogated which?

>but hey, who cares about facts, we are on 4chan and the topic is badboogywoogyislamm uhhh

Nice deflection there, Abdullah.

>>1757118
>tried to accommodate Meccan beliefs.
>FUCK U IF U USE DIVINIG ARROWS UR A FAGGOT AND GOD HATES U

>>1760090
Im so glad I started to watch YouTube anti-islam skeptics, because it led me to actually investigate the religion, it's so interesting. It manages to be even more contradictory than the other abrahamic religions. Im currently about a third of the way through the quran.
>the awkward inclusion of Arabian folk spirits like Djinn
>look, this is the religion of Abraham and his fathers, actually
>the Talmud and the gospel are the same book, but NOW we recieved the special edition, consider yourselves lucky
>the Christians and the DIRTY Jews fucked up, third time's the charm
>the old Arabs were disgusting savages, burying their daughters alive, you don't want that
>but let's keep their spirit tradition anyway, lol

>>1760653
Him being illiterate is referenced all across Islamic scripture, he might or might not have been, important thing is he was believed to be. It's part of the lore how divine inspiration made him able to convey the message DESPITE him not knowing how to write. A probable explanation could be that he wasn't actually illiterate.

>>1766157
He had scribes write everything down. One of the scribes (Abdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh) realized that Mohamed was a sham and had his own prophecies. Coincidentally, "allah" then ordered him killed.

>'To me it has been revealed', when naught has been revealed to him" refers to 'Abdullah Ibn Sâd Ibn Abi Sarh, who used to write for God's messenger. The verse (23:12) that says, "We created man of an extraction of clay" was revealed, and when Muhammad reached the part that says, "... thereafter We produced him as another creature (23:14), 'Abdullah said, "So blessed be God the fairest of creators!" in amazement at the details of man's creation. The Prophet said, "Write it down; for thus it has been revealed." 'Abdullah doubted and said, "If Muhammad is truthful then I receive the revelation as much as he does, and if he is a liar, what I said is a good as what he said."

>>1766187
more:
>

The scribes of Muhammad were 42 in number. 'Abdullah Ibn Sarh al-`Amiri was one of them, and he was the first Quraishite among those who wrote in Mecca before he turned away from Islam. He started saying, "I used to direct Muhammad wherever I willed. He would dictate to me 'All-Powerful, All-Wise' [the critic has wrongly translated 'Aziz by Most-High which is in Arabic 'Aliyy, it seems that he confused it with the previous word 'Alayya which means "to me"], and I would write down 'All-Wise' only. Then he would say, 'Yes it is all the same'. On a certain occasion he said, 'Write such and such', but I wrote 'Write' only, and he said, 'Write whatever you like.'" So when this scribe exposed Muhammad, he wrote in the Qur'an, "And who does greater evil than he who forges against God a lie, or says, 'To me it has been revealed', when naught has been revealed to him."

>>1763127
>infiltrated
'Infiltrated' implies that someone is coming from the outside to effect change. To me it seems more like the cultural and religious atmospheres where these people are brought up guide them to adopt their beliefs. Extremism is coming from inside 'islam' and sadly it's very very resilient against reform.

>>1765083
The quran has a huge problem with the implication that Jesus might be God's son as 'God does not take partners, so how could he have a son' or something. It's very adamant about there being one deity and nothing that can be associated with him.

You really do have a problem with Islam. Inferiority complex. Copying and pastying things you found on suspicious websites.

>>1766187
He needed a lie to join the Quraysh.
I googled the name and found that
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Sarh/

At least, muslims have arguments.

>>1766106
That was only a part of what they did.
The greatest djinnbloc is still in use after all.

>>1766565
>he was motivated to lie because he wanted to join the quraysh
Or
>he was motivated to join the quraysh because he was disappointed by muhammad lying
It's not a clear-cut case and him joining them could be indicative of both.

>>1766715
No because he converted back to Islam anon. The website gives all the details, and I prefer those arguments over some missionaries' claims without any argument.

>>1766715
So there were 42 scribes but only one said that, and that's the only one who left Islam and came back after. I think he only wanted approval of the Quraysh.

>>1766731
So that's also the proof that apostates weren't killed if they weren't fighting Muslim's on a battlefield.

>>1765083

>"And verily we gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and we supported him with the Holy Spirit."

The trinity is mentioned. It is understood differently in Islam, than the traditional Christian perspective.

>>1765984
Islam can be reformed as long as Muslims believe that the Quran is the literal word of God.

>>1766802
>"O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs"

>>1766458
It happens to religion. You could have two people be raised in a Muslim home, and read the same Quran and learn its truth trough the same people.

Later in life, because they are two different people, one becomes a devotee and the other becomes a terrorist. It is obvious it is not the religion or the culture that effects ones actions, but it is in the individual.

>>1761328
that chant is catchy as fuck, 8/10 would idolate to.

>>1766532
It isn't as huge of a deal as it is made out to be, at least by many Muslims.

>The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah ... and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus

At this point is would be about who is a Muslim, Jew, or Christian lets argue, rather we would discuss the works of Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, Noah etc. Rather than arguing, we can agree on the work that the prophets have brought to us, have faith in them, practice them, and share different perspectives and ideas.

>>1766809
Islam doesn't need to be reformed, but "Muslims" need to learn the true Islam if they don't want to take the bait. To fight ignorance you need to learn. Do you really think terrorists are good "muslims", they are just ignorant sheeps following shitty people who only want power. Don't forget Christianity encourage to turn the other cheek but yet Christians killed millions of people.

>>1766814
It is understood differently in Islam. The Holy Spirit misters to Jesus, and Allah is the Father. The functions are different in Islam and Christianity.

Here is part of the mission of Jesus:
>"But to all who did receive Him, who believed in His name, He have them thee right to become children of God. John 1:12

>>1766771
>>1766731
Alright.

>>1761776
> in AD 110
And who gave the Church Fathers the right to tell what is right or wrong. What books were apocryphal or not ?
And more generally are Catholics right ? Or Orthodox Christians ? What about Copts ? Protestants ? Mormonism ? Who are the good Christians and the heretics ?

>>1766565
Besides the only sources we have are from Muslims historians. So I don't think they would've wanted to show that to the world. Christians missionaries have a bad habit, taking things out of their context.

>>1766888
?

>>1766848
I'm someone who took the YouTube anti-islam pill 100% then went back a couple notches after starting to read the quran.
>Islam doesn't need to be reformed
Does that mean that you're fine with sharia being mandated as state law? Islam is unique in that its scriptures provide guidance on law and statescraft as well, purporting it to be the guidance and literal word of God. In my opinion, if you disagree with this, you're already reforming Islam. Not to mention specifics like the theological acrobatics called 'islamic banking'. It's by no means a viable way to stay competitive in today's world. Straddling a nation with these restrictions is an antidote to prosperity.

In summary, if you advocate for any reevaluation of a religion's tenets, you're already reforming.

>>1765083
Muslims are basically Sethian Unitarians regarding their understanding of Yeshua.

>>1766848
Also
>Do you really think terrorists are good "muslims"
I don't, but I think when people say terrorists/ISIS aren't muslims, it's a clear indicator that they don't know shit and are virtue signalling. They are almost without exception non-muslim. Good on you for not doing that.

>>1766953
I just conceded that it can't equally be an indicator od of the two.

>>1766981

Terrorists aren't muslims. Real muslims don't try to blow up the Mosque of Medina.

>>1766942
>Besides the only sources we have are from Muslims historians.
This.

>>1767021
By this logic the crusaders weren't christians. There is no remission of sins for engaging in holy war in the bible, Urban II promised that in his speech to start the first crusade. Following this logic, people who went to wage war in Jerusalem in hopes of getting their sin of murder removed aren't Christian.

You can't have both.

>>1766963
> Sharia
I've visited North Africa. There isn't a "Sharia" law. People are muslims and open-minded, well not really open-minded but indifferent. They are Jews and Christians in Morocco, Christian arabs/berbers in Algeria. Even gay people, and no one gives a shit, every one is doing his life. Religious people do their things, and don't care about those who don't pray, fast... I've seen more women without hijab than with hijab.

>>1767068
Who said they were Christians ? I think "real" Christians don't consider those who kill as Christians. But who are the real Christians. That's the weakness of Christianity. Islam has Hadith, which deal with a lot of subjects whereas Christianity doesn't, so some Pope can invent laws and promise paradise to those who don't turn the other cheek.

>>1767080
>North africa

Which country?
Tunisia is quiet western, Lybia is partly still an IS hideout (The people there allowed it to happen after all.) while in egypt they had to execute large amounts of oppositionals to keep sharia from happening while violence against coptic christians seems to be common.

>>1767068
No they weren't christians. Or at least we can say Urban II, the Church, and Kings weren't Christians. During the crusade people were illiterate, only priests and a few people could read. So they were ignorant, well they probably knew about the commandement "Thou shall not kill". But you get what I mean. Terrorists and christians crusaders are quite the same, they lack knowledge and believe everything some people tell them.

>>1767117
Morocco and Algeria (work). They drink alcohol, they do what they want to.

>>1767122
>thou shall not kill

Only means members of your ingroup anyway, as shown by Moses killing idolators in his own ranks after receiving the command.

File: khomenei.jpg (83KB, 850x400px) Image search: [Google]

83KB, 850x400px

>>1767129
Because they got dominated by europe and Islam got driven out of the government even though it inherently strives to be in such a position.

>>1767138
Yeah but "westerners" who don't know shit will tell you that in those countries people aren't tolerant. That every woman wears a hijab ... You know the stereotypes. But they are true muslims, they do their things in peace and don't care about others.

>>1767145
I cant judge whether they are true muslims or if most people simply follow the core of the doctrine but start cherrypicking when it would force them to get into conflict or burden their conscience otherwise.

I mean, my aunt is a devout christian but as I once asked her on the sideline about how she personally saw it with the god-to-human ratio (Not that directly of course) of jesus christ she had no clue even though as a protestant she would have had to take a stance on that matter differing from other denominations.

Because of such observations I never really bought into the idea of a faith's potential for conflict or theocratic tendencys to be readable by the behaviour of its most mundane practitioners in times of peace and prosperity.

>>1766814
>>1766802
The Holy Trinity is a mystery. It can be understood at the basic level for humans, but the problem was, and is, that Arabs were theological infants. They do not understand the nature of Christ, they refuse to attempt to comprehend, so instead they deny such as an atheist would deny God since he chooses not to understand, the harder path.
In Islam, the Trinity is chastised and mocked, not "understood differently". Muslims deny the Holy Trinity, and through that deny God because they refuse to admit and believe that God has revealed Himself to us via the Holy Trinity.
Use this in an actual argument and it'll have them apostatize within a year after of that argument being irreconcilable.

>>1767334
Of course it is a mystery. It is the same Jesus, the same One God, and the same Holy Spirit. The only thing that is different is the basic idea of how mainstream Christians view Jesus and how mainstream Muslims view Jesus.

They in now way deny the Holy Trinity. All that is different is the interpretation of the texts. Islam is not "downright denial of Christianity" but they are still a very Christian religion outside of terrorism and all of that.

>>1767357
no** way not "now" way.

>>1766906
Read the Early Church Fathers.
Orthodox Christianity has been around since Christ through the Apostles and Apostolic Succession and Sacrament.
These men weren't just some Protestant pastors that run a normal life and preach on the side. Many of the Church Fathers lived as Christ did, as the Apostles did, a life of poverty, chastity, fasting, and prayer.

>>1767129
>They drink alcohol
This alone makes them apostates in Islam.

>>1767382
meme detected

>They ask you about wine and gambling. Say, In them is great sin and [yet, some] benefit for people. But their sin is greater than their benefit." And they ask you what they should spend. Say, "The excess [beyond needs]. Thus Allah makes clear to you the verses [of revelation] that you might give thought. 2:219

>>1767190
>I mean, my aunt is a devout christian but as I once asked her on the sideline about how she personally saw it with the god-to-human ratio (Not that directly of course) of jesus christ she had no clue even though as a protestant she would have had to take a stance on that matter differing from other denominations.

1:1; fully God and fully Man

>>1763320
There is little to no change seen in the Quran over 1,400 hundred years, and many Biblical manuscripts are very similar dating to as early as 70AD.
You're retarded.

>>1767357
They deny that Christ is the Son of God, God in the flesh. That is essential in the Trinity.. and since they deny it, they are not Trinitarian. They cannot reconcile that there is One God, but He has chosen to reveal Himself through three persons of one essence. The believe simply that Christ is a prophet, nothing more.

>>1767395
yeah, but there are some quiet different viewpoints on how much of his actions were guided by divine omnipotence and in which ways he had made himself vulnerable in human form.
As far as I know there are some different viewpoints on that, i used to remember them but not right now.

>>1767434
They do not deny Jesus. They accept Him.

>>1767497
>They do not deny Jesus. They accept Him.
As I said here >>1767434
>They believe simply that Christ is a prophet, nothing more.
They believe Christ was a Prophet, nothing more. Not God made Flesh. Also, they believe that Mohamed was greater than Christ.

>>1767483
>but there are some quiet different viewpoints on how much of his actions were guided by divine omnipotence and in which ways he had made himself vulnerable in human form.

This is an older heresy, known as the Monothelitism. It says that Christ is of one will, not two. Christ was fully God and fully Man, so thus He has two wills.. he had hunger, emotions, waste.. everything a human did, but is without sin as He is God. Two wills without division, separation, etc.
Monothelitism diminished His Humanity.

>>1762842
And we have records of times when church authorities have convened to edit the Bible to conform to current orthodoxy - The Council of Nicaea for instance.

All religions are constructed things - hell, Jesus himself is just a knock-off Mithras with some Zoroaster thrown in.

>>1767564
You don't have to identify as "Trinitarian" to still believe in the Trinity. They believe in the Father, Allah in Arabic. They believe in the One God sent, Jesus, and they also believe Jesus is ministered to by the Holy Spirit. They worship God alone, rather than the Trinity, because of cultural understanding and they do not want to worship the Prophet Jesus, because God is God alone.

They are very Christian because they believe in Jesus a Prophet. They don't read the Quran and say "Oh Jesus, ha yeah its just Jesus who cares he's only a prophet nothing more stupid Christians haha" NO. They read about Jesus and understand Him only slightly different than Christians do. Islam is a branch of Christianity. They don't believe in Him as God alone.

>>1767589
OR Mithras is a prediction of Jesus.

>>1762842
>>1767432
Ha wut? You have a copy of the Q document, do you?

>>1763302
Yet Muslims still have millions of slaves. For example, up to 20% of the population of Mauritania.

>>1767595
islam was originally regarded by christians as just another christian heresy

>>1767626
no it wasn't

>>1767633
It was by some, read St. John Damascene.

>>1763126
>>Then stop listening to YouTube and 4chan to learn about Islam.
I don't. The actions of actual muslims in the real world tell me all I need to know about you worthless barbarians.

>>1760308
Absolutely senpai

>>1767641
like other peoples opinions, but blindly accepting them as heresy because thy say its heresy its not convincing that it actually is heresy.

>>1767643
so you know a bunch of muslims who are "worthless barbarians" in real life?

>>1767595
>You don't have to identify as "Trinitarian" to still believe in the Trinity.
That's pretty essential.. like a Christian must believe that Christ is God in the flesh.

>They believe in the Father, Allah in Arabic. They believe in the One God sent, Jesus, and they also believe Jesus is ministered to by the Holy Spirit.
That He was simply a man, yes, a prophet lesser than Mohamed.

>They worship God alone, rather than the Trinity, because of cultural understanding and they do not want to worship the Prophet Jesus, because God is God alone.
God IS. God is the Trinity, and the Trinity is God.

>They are very Christian because they believe in Jesus a Prophet.
A Christian believes that Christ is God, the Logos, the Son. A Muslim believes possibly only that He is the Word (Logos), which itself contradicts Islam as it proves Christ's divinity, that He is God.

>They don't read the Quran and say "Oh Jesus, ha yeah its just Jesus who cares he's only a prophet nothing more stupid Christians haha" NO.
Have you read Muslim apologetics, specifically the ones from the first few centuries of Islam? Because they all use that line of attack.

>They read about Jesus and understand Him only slightly different than Christians do. Islam is a branch of Christianity. They don't believe in Him as God alone.

>Slightly

Saying Christ is only man is a bit more different than "slightly".

>>1767648
How do we know what Christ taught? What the Apostles taught in Christ's name? We look and find what was accepted throughout Christianity as Truth, by all peoples, what the Apostles preached. This is how we can determine the basis of what is Orthodox and what is heresy.

>>1767678
You know we can babble on for ever and get no where. You can preach orthodox and someone else can preach a different opinion.

>>1767651
I live in Birmingham, England.

I meet a lot of Muslims in my day to day; most of them are as personable as you expect a person in polite society to be, but if you engage with them you will find that their morality is alien to a secular mind, so it is not wise to trust them; they do things like neglect to wash their hands, (context; nurse at a hospital) because the soap dispenser uses an alcohol based antibacterial agent, or kill their sister for running off with a white boy see; Bradford every other week.

Also, I have only ever been mugged once in my town, and it was by a gang of Yemeni teenagers.

Practicing Muslims are not like you or me, and if you talk to them meaningfully for any length of time you will come to understand that.

>>1767688
I agree. For yourself or any other anon here, if you have questions or doubts of what I've been saying, go find your nearest Orthodox monastery or Priest and bring up all my points as well as all your questions. They by far would know more than I.

Nice chat, anon. God Bless you.

>>1767691
Orthodoxy is not the only Christianity .


>>1767690
what are you talking about? Literally all u need to do is type something sort of racist and make it sound true like "lel all muslim r like immoral yo cause on time at bend cemp"

not making fun of you personally or anything but it is all stereotype meme quality bullshit

>>1767708
>Orthodoxy is not the only Christianity .
Yes, technically, there are many. However, it is the only Christianity, the only Church, to date back to Christ and the Apostles in length of time and directness of continuity.

>>1767714
The true church is every person who has the Holy Spirit;

>Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

the Greek word for “church” is ecclesia , an assembly of people “called out.” The OT Hebrew equivalent is qahal, “assembly” or “congregation.” But what sets the NT apart is the understanding that the ecclesia is a community “called out” from “every nation, kindred, tongue, and people” (Rev. 14:6, KJV) . It is chosen by God and the people and has no ethnic component.

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>>1755730
Don't go there OP
DON'T GO THERE

>>1767734
You are correct. But that Church is meant to save, to bring people to Christ. Liturgy is not a social gathering but to Commune the Church with Christ - hence the Sacraments. One Baptism for the remission of sins, Holy Communion, Apostolic Succession, Confession, the Eucharist, etc.

>>1767782
That is a mainstream Christian perspective, valid, but not everyone adopts this idea.

>>1767122
>>1767095
Well I'd rather consider them bad Christians and bad Muslims as denying them these titles altogether, as they believe themselves to be those. This way we can avoid getting into the fallacious 'appeal to purity' territory.

Then again I hesitate to call mtf transsexuals 'women' or even 'bad women' so there is an inconsistency in my thinking for you.

>>1760579
whatever the case, islam seems pretty close to arianism.

>>1767497
>>1767434
As a prophet, yes, but not as the son of God. Let's put this meme to rest.
>Exalted is He above having a son 4:171
(already quoted in full in thread)
>They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, "Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?" 5:17
>They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire.
>Christ, son of Mary was no more than a messenger 5:75
Here I am, an atheist having a theological debate with you. My final quote to you is
>What is the matter with you? 10:35

>>1755730
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRICs4iJd1w

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>>1766139
>the old Arabs were disgusting savages, burying their daughters alive, you don't want that
I don't know, the whole infanticide thing seems plausible. If so, Mo actually did a good thing with that.
>>1766906
>And who gave the Church Fathers the right to tell what is right or wrong. What books were apocryphal or not?
“Quod ubique, quod semper, quod ab omnibus creditum est”
>And more generally are Catholics right ?
For the most part.
>Or Orthodox Christians?
Yeah
>What about Copts?
Yeah. They've been talking with the rest of Christendom, and their Christology is the same.
>Protestants?
No.
>Mormonism ?
God, no.
>Who are the good Christians and the heretics?
The descendants of the ancient sees belong to the first.

>>1767678
You are clearly a Christian.
> "The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "WE MAKE NO DISTINCTION (THEY SAY) BETWEEN ONE AND ANOTHER OF HIS MESSENGERS." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."