Descriptions of ancient societies from the point of view of other

>>1755535
>"The Dashi (Arabs) were originally under the rule of Anxi (Persia). The men have high noses, are dark, and bearded. The women are very fair [white] and when they go out they veil the face.

>Five times daily they worship Tianshen [lit. Heavenly God]. They wear silver girdles, with silver knives suspended. They do not drink wine, nor use music. Their place of worship will accommodate several hundreds of people.

>Every seventh day the King (Caliph) sits on high, and speaks to those below saying, ' Those who are killed by the enemy will be born in heaven above; those who slay the enemy will receive happiness.' Therefore they are usually valiant fighters. Their land is sandy and stony, not fit for cultivation; so they hunt and eat flesh."

>>1755537
>"Kufa is the place of their capital. Its men and women are attractive in appearance and large in stature. Their clothing is handsome, and their carriage and demeanor leisurely and lovely. When women go outdoors, they always cover their faces, regardless of whether they are noble or base. They pray to heaven five times a day. They eat meat [ even] when practicing abstention, [for] they believe the taking of life to be meritorious."

>>1755535
>"The followers of the religion of the Dashi have a means to denote the degrees of family relations, but it is degenerated and they don’t bother about it. They don’t eat the meat of pigs, dogs, donkeys and horses, they don’t respect neither the king of the country, neither their parents, they don’t believe in supernatural powers, they perform sacrifice to heaven and to no one else.

>According their customs every seventh day is a holiday, on which no trade and no cash transactions are done, whereas when they drink alcohol, they are behaving in a ridiculous and undisciplined way during the whole day.”

>>1755539
>Buddhists being salty about sacrifice.

No wonder Asians are low test.

Greek depiction of India by Flavius Arrianus, from post-Alexander Greek period, found at http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/Indica.html . Mostly describing the geography or talking about Greek mythological figures in India. However, some excerpts in particular about the culture:

>“10. This also is said, that the Indians do not construct monuments for the dead, for they think that the virtues of men are sufficient to perpetuate their memory after their death, as well as the songs which they sing in their honour. It would not be possible to record with accuracy the number of their cities on account of their multiplicity. Those which are situated near the rivers or the sea are built of wood; for if they were built of brick they could not long endure on account of the rain and because the rivers overflowing their banks fill the plains with water. But those which have been founded in commanding places, lofty and raised above the adjacent country, are built of brick and mortar. The largest city in India, named Palimbothra, is in the land of the Prasians, where is the confluence of the river Erannoboas and the Ganges, which is the greatest of rivers. The Erannoboas would be third of the Indian rivers, being also larger than those elsewhere. But it yields itself up to the Ganges when it has discharged its water into it. Megasthenes says that on one side where it is longest this city extends ten miles in length, and that its breadth is one and threequarters miles; that the city has been surrounded with a ditch in breadth 600 feet, and in depth 45 feet; and that its wall has 570 towers and 64 gates. This is a great thing in India, that all the inhabitants are free, not a single Indian being a slave. In this the Lacedaemonians and the Indians are alike. However the Helots are slaves to the Lacedaemonians and perform servile offices; but among the Indians no other Indian at any rate is a slave.“

>“11. All the Indians have been divided into seven castes. Among them are the wise men, fewer in number than the others, but most esteemed in reputation and dignity. For no necessity is incumbent upon them to do any bodily labour; nor do they contribute anything to the commonwealth from the effects of their labour; nor in a word have they any compulsory duty except to offer sacrifices to the gods on behalf of the commonwealth of India. Whoever sacrifices in his private capacity has one of these wise men as a director of the sacrifice, since otherwise he does not offer acceptable sacrifice to the gods. These also are the only Indians skilled in divination; and it is not lawful for anyone to practise the art except for a man who is a wise man. They practise divination in regard to the seasons of the year, and if any calamity befalls the commonwealth. It is not their business to practise their art in regard to the private affairs of individuals, either because the art of divination does not extend to smaller matters, or because it is not worthy of them to labour about such things. Whoever has made three errors in his practise of divination receives no other punishment except that for the future he is compelled to be silent; and there is no one who can compel that man to speak, upon whom the judgment of silence has been passed. These wise men pass their lives naked; in the winter in the sun under the open sky, but in the summer, when the sun holds sway, they live in the meadows and in the marshes under great trees, the shadow of which Nearchus says extends 500 feet all round, and I0,000 men could be shaded under one tree. So large are these trees. They feed on the fruits of the seasons and the inner bark of trees, which is both pleasant and nutritious; not less so than dates.“

>“After these the second caste are the agriculturalists, who are the most numerous class of Indians. These have no martial weapons, nor do they care for deeds of war, but till the soil. They pay dues to the kings or to those cities which are independent. If any war happens to break out among the Indians with each other it is not lawful for them to touch the tillers of the soil, or to lay waste the country itself by destroying the crops. But while others are waging war against each other and slaying each other as they find the chance, they are ploughing in peace and quietness near them, or are gathering in the vintage, or are pruning their vines, or are reaping their crops.

The third caste of Indians are the shepherds and the cowherds, who dwell neither in cities nor in villages; but are nomads and live up and down the mountains. They pay a tax from their flocks and herds. These men also catch birds and hunt wild beasts throughout the land.

12. The fourth caste is that of the artisans and retail tradesmen. These men perform public duties at their own cost, and pay a tax upon their work, except those who make weapons of war. These receive pay from the commonwealth. In this caste are the shipwrights and sailors who sail up and down the rivers.

The fifth caste of the Indians consists of the warriors, who in number come next to the husbandmen and enjoy very great freedom and good cheer. These men practise nothing but warlike exercises. Others make the weapons for them, others provide them with horses; and others serve them in the camp, who groom the horses for them, keep their weapons bright, manage the elephants, keep the chariots in order, and drive the horses. They themselves fight, as long as it is necessary to wage war; but when there is peace, they live with good cheer; and they receive such high pay from the state that they can easily support others from it.“

>“The sixth caste of Indians consists of men who are called overseers. These supervise what is done throughout the country and in the cities, and make reports to the king, where the Indians are ruled by a king, or to the magistrates where the people have a democratic government. It is unlawful for these men to make false reports; but no Indian has incurred the charge of falsehood.

>“The seventh caste consists of those who assist the king in deliberating on public affairs, or assist the officials in the cities which enjoy a democratic government. This class is small in number, but in wisdom and justice excels all the others. From them are chosen their rulers, governors of provinces, deputies, treasurers, generals, admirals, controllers of expenditure, and superintendents of agriculture.

>“It is not lawful for anyone to marry a woman from another caste; for example, for husbandmen to marry from the class of artisans or the reverse. It is not lawful for the same man to exercise two trades, or to exchange from one caste into another; for instance, he may not cease to be a shepherd and become a husbandman, or cease to be an artisan and become a shepherd. Only a man from any caste is allowed by them to become a wise man, because the duties of the wise men are not easy, but the most severely laborious of all.“

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>Physically, the French are not noticeably tall or stout, yet they are bold in spirit and have a vivacious nature and an animated style of speech. In temperament they are akin to the Japanese and excel in their ingenuity, but they are quite the opposite of the British and Germans in their tendency towards recklessness and their lack of diligence or perseverance. They have a keen eye for enterprise initially, but in the final analysis they are imprudent since they often transgress accepted rules of conduct and find self-restraint hard. When a general of military genius emerges to spur them on, they become so invincible that they cast ravenous eyes over the whole of Europe, but the moment this leadership slackens their sense of unity shatters beyond repair. Their bloody defeat at the hands of the Germans [in the Franco Prussian War], too, was not the result of weakness on the part of the soldiers but was due to the inferiority of the generals.

"A Survey of France" in Japan Rising: The Iwakura Embassy to the USA and Europe, 1871-1873

William of Rubruck, an envoy of Louis IX of France to the court of Möngke Khan, describing Uyghur Buddhists in Qaraqorum:

>All the priests (of the idolaters) shave their heads, and are dressed in saffron color, and they observe chastity from the time they shave their heads, and they live in congregations of one or two hundred. On the days when they go into the temple, they put down two benches and sit on the ground opposite one another in facing rows like choirs, with books in their hands, which they sometimes put down on these benches; and they keep their heads uncovered as long as they are in the temple, reading in silence and keeping silence. And when I went into one of their temples at Caracarum, and found them thus seated, I tried every means of inducing them to talk, but was unable to do so. Wherever they go they have in their hands a string of one or two hundred beads, like our rosaries, and they always repeat these words, on mani baccam, which is, "God, thou knowest," as one of them interpreted it to me, and they expect as many rewards from God as they remember God in saying this. Around their temple they make a fine courtyard well surrounded by a wall, and in the side of this facing the south, they make the main gate where they sit and talk. And over this gate they set up a long pole, which, if it be possible, rises above the whole city, and by this pole it may be known that this building is an idol temple. This practice is common to all idolaters. When I went into the idol temple I was speaking of, I found the priests seated in the outer gate, and when I saw them with their shaved faces they seemed to me to be Franks, but the mitres they were wearing on their heads were of paper.

>>1755597
>These Iugur priests have the following dress: wherever they go they are always dressed in rather tight saffron-colored tunics, over which is a girdle like the Franks, and they have a stole (pallium) over their left shoulder, passed round the chest and the back to the right side, like the chasuble (casula) worn by a deacon in Lent.

>When then I had sat down beside these priests, after having been in the temple and seen their many idols, great and small, I asked them what they believed concerning God. They answered: "We only believe that there is one God." Then I asked: "Do you believe he is a spirit, or something corporeal?" "We believe that he is a spirit," they said. "Do you believe that he has never taken upon him human nature?" They said: "Never." "Then," said I, "if you believe that he is one and a spirit, why do you make him bodily images, and so many? Furthermore, if you do not believe that he became man, why do you make him in human shape rather than in that of some animal?" Then they replied: "We do not make these images for God, but when some rich person among us dies, his son, or wife, or someone dear to him, has made an image of the deceased, and puts it here, and we revere it in memory of him." Then I said: "Then you only make these out of flattery for man." "Only," they said, "in remembrance." Then they asked me, as if in derision: "Where is God ? "To which I said: "Where is your soul?" "In our body," they said. I replied: "Is it not everywhere in your body, and does it not direct the whole of it, and, nevertheless, is invisible? So God is everywhere, and governs all things, though invisible, for He is intelligence and wisdom." Then, just as I wanted to continue reasoning with them, my interpreter, who was tired and incapable of finding the right words, made me stop talking.

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>Ahmad ibn Fadlān ibn al-Abbās ibn Rāšid ibn Hammād (Arabic: أحمد بن فضلان بن العباس بن راشد بن حماد, fl. 921–22) was a 10th-century Arab traveler, famous for his account of his travels as a member of an embassy of the Abbasid Caliph of Baghdad to the king of the Volga Bulgars. En route to the Bulgars he fell in with a group of Viking marauders. Here he describes them in a letter

>The Northmen

They are the filthiest race that God ever created. They do not wipe themselves after a stool, nor wash themselves thereafter, any more than if they were wild asses.

They come from their country in the North, anchor their ships in the Volga River, and build large wooden houses on its banks. In every such house there live ten or twenty, more or less. Each man has a couch, where he sits with the beautiful girls he has for sale. Here he is as likely as not to enjoy one of them while a friend looks on. At times several of them will be thus engaged, each in full view of the others. Now and then a merchant will come to a house to purchase a girl, and find her master thus embracing her, and not giving over until he has full had his will.

Every morning a girl comes and brings a tub of water, and places it before her master. In this he proceeds to wash his face and hands, and then his hair, combing it out over the vessel. Thereupon he blows his nose, and spits into the tub, and leaving no dirt behind, conveys it all into this water. When he has finished, the girl carries the tub to the man next t him, who does the same. Thus she continues carrying the tub from one to another until each man has blown his nose and spit into the tub, and washed his face and hair

>>1755646
>A Viking Funeral

I was told that when their chiefs die, they consume them with fire. When I heard that one of their leaders had died, I wanted to see this myself. First they laid him in his grave, over which a roof was erected, for the space of ten days, until they had completed cutting and sowing his funeral clothes.

At the death of a rich man, they bring together his goods, and divide them into three parts. The first of these is for his family. The second is expended for the garments they make. And with the third they purchase strong drink, for the day when the girl resigns herself to death, and will be burned with her master.

When one of their chiefs dies, his family asks his girls and pages, "Which one of you will die with him?" One will answer: "I." From the moment he utters this word, he may not go back. Mostly, though, it is one of the girls who volunteers.

Regarding the man of whom I spoke, one girl answered "I will." She was then entrusted to two other girls, who kept watch over her and accompanied her everywhere she went. The people were preparing the dead man's funeral clothes, and this girl gave herself over to drinking and singing, and was cheerful and gay.

When the day had come that the dead man and the girl were to be committed to the flames, I went to the river where his ship lay, but found it had already been drawn ashore. The dead man lay at a distance in his grave, from which they had not yet removed him. Next they brought a couch, placed it in the ship, and covered it with Greek cloth of gold, wadded and quilted, with pillows of the same material. An woman, whom they call the "Angel of Death," came and spread articles on the couch. It was she who was to slay the girl.

>>1755646
>They do not wipe themselves after a stool, nor wash themselves thereafter
>he blows his nose, and spits into the tub, and leaving no dirt behind, conveys it all into this water. When he has finished, the girl carries the tub to the man next t him, who does the same.

Thats actually pretty filthy desu

>>1755665

They drew the dead man out of the grave and clothed him. They carried him into the ship, seated him on the quilted covering, supported him with the pillows, and brought strong drinks, fruits, and herbs to place beside him. Finally they brought a cock and hen, slew them, and threw them in, too.

The girl meanwhile walked to and fro, entering one after another of the tents which they had there. The occupant of each tent lay with her, saying, "Tell your master I did this only for love of you."

It was now Friday afternoon, and they led the girl to an object they had constructed which looked like a door-frame. They lifted her and lowered her several times. Then they handed her a hen, whose head they had cut off. They gave her strong drink and admonished her to drink it quickly.

After this, the girl seemed dazed. At this moment the men began to beat upon their shields, in order to drown out the noise of her cries, which might deter other girls from seeking death with their masters in the future.

They laid her down and seized her hands and feet. The old woman known as the Angel of Death knotted a rope around her neck and handed the ends to two men to pull. Then with a broad dagger she stabbed her between the ribs while the men strangled her. Thus she died.

The family of the dead men drew near, and taking a piece of wood, lit the ship. The ship was soon aflame, as was the couch, the man, the girl, and everything in it.

>>1755671
At my side one of the Northmen was talking with my interpreter. After their conversation I asked my interpreter what he had said. The Northman had said:

>"You Arabs are stupid! You would take him who is the most revered and beloved among men, and cast him into the ground, to be devoured by creeping things and worms. We, on the other hand, burn him in a twinkling, so that he instantly, without a moment's delay, enters into Paradise.”

>>1755604
Asshole interpreter

>you will never show an ancient person around the modern world

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Byzantine war manual description of adversaries; steppe nomads, Germanics and South Slavs

>>1755586
th...thanks Japan

>>1755535
I have tons on my other computer :(

Chinese descriptions of British are nice, apparently they thought they couldn't see depth, didn't have knee joints and drank menstrual blood.

>>1755716
STOP MAKING ME CRY, YOU CUNT

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>>1755786
That slav sneakyness.

Using hollow reeds

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>>1755671
>The girl meanwhile walked to and fro, entering one after another of the tents which they had there. The occupant of each tent lay with her, saying, "Tell your master I did this only for love of you."
>It was now Friday afternoon, and they led the girl to an object they had constructed which looked like a door-frame. They lifted her and lowered her several times. Then they handed her a hen, whose head they had cut off. They gave her strong drink and admonished her to drink it quickly.
>After this, the girl seemed dazed. At this moment the men began to beat upon their shields, in order to drown out the noise of her cries, which might deter other girls from seeking death with their masters in the future.
>They laid her down and seized her hands and feet. The old woman known as the Angel of Death knotted a rope around her neck and handed the ends to two men to pull. Then with a broad dagger she stabbed her between the ribs while the men strangled her. Thus she died.
>The family of the dead men drew near, and taking a piece of wood, lit the ship. The ship was soon aflame, as was the couch, the man, the girl, and everything in it.

absolutely haram, what the fuck

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>>1755716
[spoiler];-;[/spoiler]

>>1755847
sounds like a white devil

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>>1755905
A nice tl;dr of history from a traditional chinese view is - We invented everything and then forgot it while barbarians remembered.

>>1755917
This is sort of true regarding Japan and Korea.

Most of their """""""traditional"""""""" shit is basically T'ang period traditions. The Hanbok, those anal Japanese tea ceremonies, etc. Its not "forgotten" though. More or less, "improved."

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Andalusian/Moroccan description of Amsterdam

>>1755929
I wonder if Europeans jerked off harder to the Romans or the Chinese to Tang and Song dynasty in the early modern period.

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>>1755931
And in 1609 he also spoke what is probably the first university educated arabist.

>>1755938
this arab guy sounds a like a pretty swell dude

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>>1755946
Not sure if he was an arab, a berber or a moor or god knows what.

But yeah the Protestant Nations had good relations with several Muslim states and you can see them on paintings occasionally. Bottom Right hand corner in this picture IIRC

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Alright I got a bunch of Chinese ones, is anyone still watching this thread?

>>1755961
here

this is a good thread

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>>1755961

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>>1755967

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>>1755971

>>1755874
That's the wealth of nations isn't it.

>>1755979
I believe so.

I have a bunch of artwork of Irish mercenaries by Spanish and German artists on my laptop but I'm away from home, hopefully this thread will still be up when I get back

>>1755988
Don't worry we've been keeping the Burgundy thread alive for weeks now.

>>1755537
>>1755539
>>1755540

Looks pretty accurate. Specially compared with chinese descriptions of Rome who was more or less in the same place.

What a wonderful and fresh thread, sorry I can't contribute yet I'm just looking through to find something to post

>>1755917
WE WEL BOATS N SHITTO

>>1755874
>1700s.
>Qing Golden Age.
>Some Brit says "It's fucking shit."
Is the 18th Century just filled with Brits talking shit about places they haven't visited? I don't care if this is Adam Smith.

Inb4 Arab or Marco Polo description of the Zanj

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>>1755978
>>1755971
>>1755967
>>1755961
>>1755917
The knowledge that the chinese then proceeded to be BTFO so hard their entire civilization was reduced to making cheap plastic toys for obese american children after they uttered these things is priceless

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>>1756048
Britain has visited Qing China in the 1700s.
China doesn't like Britain that much at the time and prefers dealing with France, the Netherlands, and Spain. Britain has no products China wanted and in addition their sailors are a bunch of troublemaking hooligans in the trading ports.

Adam Smith may be just a salty brit when he wrote that.

>>1756048
In terms of living standards Qing was right up there with Eastern European countries.

>>1756090
Probably but there's no serfdom in Qing China.

>>1755535
The T'ang Dynasty Chinese on the Byzantine Empire/Eastern Roman Empire from the Xintangshu (New Records of T'ang)

"The country of Fulin (拂菻, Literally "New Wealth") is also called Daqin (Rome) and is situated on the west side
of the Haixi (Egypt). It is located at forty thousand li (~16,000 km);
in the north it is bordered by the territories of the Turkish Kesa (可薩).
At the western side, near the sea, there is the (capital) city of Constantinople (Chisan 遲
散).118 (Fulin) has a common border with Persia in the southeast. Its territory
extends more than ten thousand li (~5000 km), and its armies recruit hundreds of
thousands of soldiers. Every ten li (~5 km) there is a pavilion, and every three li
(1.5 km) there is a military place. There are ten subordinate, little countries, and to
go there, the road passes through the countries of Yisan (澤散Armenia; in
Armenian Hayastan) and Lufen (驢分the Kievan Rus; Lat. Ruthenia). Yisan is at
its northeastern section and does not obey its orders. Going in the direction of the
eastern Guohai Sea, at two thousand li, there is the country of Lufen. The capital
city Chisan is protected by thick walls eight li (~3.2 km) long, and the
eastern door is twelve zhang high, with hinges made of pure gold. There are three
doors in a line on the three king’s palaces, and they are all decorated with many
kinds of jewels. On the middle door there is a big man made of gold next to a
horologe made with twelve golden balls that shows the time. There are huge
columns in the palace made of crystal, with the posts made of colored glaze and
rafters made of perfumed wood; the floor is made of gold with ivory everywhere."

>>1756107
"They have twelve administrative regions.119 When the king goes out, there is
always an assistant with him and when there is a dispute, they throw the request
paper at him; in this way, the king rectifies the injustices in the provinces. If there
are unexpected calamities in the kingdom, he (the king) is unceremoniously
rejected and replaced. The cape of the king is like two wings of a bird made of
jewels and feathers. His clothes are made of brocade and he has no garment in
front. His throne is made of gold and decorated with falling flowers, and on his
side there is a bird with green feathers (a peafowl; Lat. Pavo) 120 that cries
suddenly when there is poison in the food. They do not use ceramic bricks but
they decorate the walls with white stones and the tiles of the houses are solid and
elegant like the jade. They have a system of fountains to refresh the air. The men
cut their hair and their clothes are finely embroidered, open on the right side.
They have screened coaches (for the women) and small white-roofed one-horse
carts. When carriages come and go, drums are beaten and flags and standards are
raised. The women have white pieces of cloth made of brocade on their hair. The
families always complain and many go to the palace court. They like to get drunk
and to eat biscuits. They have many children. There are also many illusionists,
who can spit fire out of their faces, have very nimble hands and can take out
banners from their mouths and make balls of jade come out of their feet."

>>1756110
From the Liezhuan, a T'ang ethnographic atlas.

"There are
excellent doctors who are able to open the stomach to take out the diseases and that can also repair the eyes. They have plenty of gold (jin 金), silver (yin 銀),
phosphorescent jade (yeguangbi 夜光璧), precious stones (mingyueqiu 明月球),
large seashells (dabei 大貝), mother-of-pearl (chequ 車渠), agates (manao 嗎硇),
munan (木難), empty jades (kongchi 孔翠), and yellow amber (hupo 虎魄). In the
sea, there are oceans of corals; the mariners use big ships and they throw iron nets
into the bottom of the sea. At the beginning of their lives, the corals are white,
then they become yellow after one year, then they become red after three year,s
and their branches are complex, to a height of 3 or 4 chi (less than one meter).
They use the iron nets to cut the corals at their roots and then to bring them up
into the ship, and when they pull up the nets, nobody dares go close to the waters.
There is a beast large like a dog that they call “Zhi,” fierce and evil, with great
strength.122 In the northern area there are many sheep; they grow from the earth
and their navels are linked to the earth; they die if it is cut. When the armored
horsemen go out of the cities, they hit the drums and the umbilical cords (of the
sheep) are cut; the sheep immediately follow the river grass and they are not in
the herd anymore (and they die). The seventeenth year of the Zhenguan era (643
AD), the king of Fulin, Boduoli (波多力 Constantine II “Pogonatos”) sent an
embassy with colored glass and some “essence of green glasses.” (The emperor
Taizong) made gifts (of silk) in return. When the Arabs (大食 Dashi)123 were
getting stronger, the surrounding countries were slowly conquered and Muawiyah
(Moye 摩拽) was sent to conquer the capital of Fulin."

>>1755786
I so badly need to get the Strategikon on my hands and read it whole

>>1756114
"After this, a peace treaty
was signed and every year the Fulin paid tributes of silk and gold to the Dashi as a vassal country. The second year of the Qianfang era (667 AD) an embassy was
sent bringing gifts and theriaca (Diyejia 底野加). The first year of the Daju era
(701 AD), a new embassy came to the court. The first month of the seventh year
of the Kaiyuan era (719 AD), a great ambassador of the Tuhuoluo came bringing
gifts of two lions and two gazelles and few months later the monk Dade (David)
arrived at the court. Two thousand li (880 km) at the southwest of Fulin there is a
country called Molin, also called Laoposa (Ethiopia). Their people are black and
strong. Nothing grows from the soil; there are diseases in the ground that dry
every single herb in the valleys and in the forests. They feed the horses with rotten
fish and eat dates.”

>>1756114
>There are
excellent doctors who are able to open the stomach to take out the diseases and that can also repair the eyes.

Do you have any more info on this? How advanced was the byzantine empire medically/ technologically?

>>1755938
there's something endearing about how friendly their discussion seems

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>>1756102
True dat.

The infanticide of (especially female) babies is mentioned in a number of European descriptions of China, even reliable ones that spoke Chinese and lived in China for multiple decades. Let's just say I do not doubt him when he says it happened

>>1756122
They were talking about surgery. Though the Chinese thought Opthalmology was the shit and that the Byzantines were p. Cool in this

>>1756107
>The country of Fulin (拂菻, Literally "New Wealth") is also called Daqin (Rome)
Charlemagne btfo

>>1756122
I believe there is or was A Chinese taboo on dissection corpses. While this was also the case in Europe until the high Middle Ages there were folks like Galen who had aces to dead or barely living gladiators.

The Romans did perform Cataract Surgery iirc.

>>1756116
Me too. Shit seems so cash.

>>1755897
>>1755871
imagine coming from like ancient greece and getting shown cars, internet, modern medicine, planes, guns, nukes, refrigeration, tv, astronomy, cosmology, shitposting, phones, civil engineering, and all the other wealth and technology we have

it would be the literally most incredible thing anyone has ever seen in their entire lives

>>1755949
Sauce?

>First-hand reports of other cultures and nations were documented only to explain things to their home culture
>We will never get a first-hand account of interpersonal relationships that are uncensored

I wonder how many emissaries and traders had crazy sexual experiences but didn't write them down.

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Finally a thread to post this in, so many months after I capped this.

>>1756122
Sasanian monarchs also praised and loved East Roman doctors. Either the chinese are copying a middle eastern stereotype or it's simply true that roman medicine was very advanced. Maybe both.

>>1756200
Specifically, that's the Chinese opinion of the Franks.

>>1756202
Which is probably taken from the byzantine and middle-eastern stereotype of them, and the chinese took it second-hand.

>>1756148
>>1756138
>performing cataract surgery with no anesthetic

How? Not even counting the pain; how do you keep the eye from moving while you're cutting it?

>>1756191
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogier_Ghiselin_de_Busbecq

>>1756219
Well you got three options.

A bunch of guys physically restrain you and you try not to be a pussy

The doctor would administer a strong blow with a very sterile hammer

The doctor give you some form of Anesthetics

>>1756232
Anon, it doesn't matter how tough you are. The eye will twitch if you stick something sharp in it without giving it anesthetic.

>>1756238
See options 1 and 2 then

>>1756238
What if they get you absolutely black the FUCK out drunk?

>>1756114
>There is a beast large like a dog that they call “Zhi,” fierce and evil, with great
strength.122 In the northern area there are many sheep; they grow from the earth and their navels are linked to the earth; they die if it is cut. When the armored horsemen go out of the cities, they hit the drums and the umbilical cords (of the sheep) are cut; the sheep immediately follow the river grass and they are not in the herd anymore (and they die).

What the fuck kek

>>1756267
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetable_Lamb_of_Tartary
Still don't know what the fuck Zhi is.

>>1756207
Well, it was a kinda justified stereotype

>>1756275
Every time I get introduced to something like this I wonder how many things in historical sources we disregard as fantasy actually have a "sensible" explanation.

>>1756114
>just before the "islamic golden age", Constantinople had made contact with China and was just about to usher in a new era of peace and prosperity
really makes you think

>>1756304
the "Islamic Golden Age" is usually put around the reign of Saladin, almost 600 years later

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>>1756306
It ended with the Abbasith something something Caliphate didn't it?

>>1756313
It's argued, but the definite end point of the range is the sack of Baghdad by the Mongols.

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>>1756321
Fucking mongs

>>1756330
>center of Islamic knowledge
>vast and expansive library and university
>heartland of the Fertile Cresent
>all destroyed because the Mongols are shitstains who can't resist destroying everything they touch

And thus the Middle East never amounted to anything ever again.

>>1756332
Isn't it wonderful?

>>1756267
The footnote says "Hyena."

>>1756148
That doesnt apply to Surgery since youre not a corpse. Chinks did surgery as well thought they didnt do opthalmology as early as classical greco-romans did.

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I'll post a few things.

>Olfert Dapper's description of Benin, 1668

The town, including the queen's court, is about five or six [Dutch] miles in circumference, or leaving the court outside, three miles inside its gates. It is protected at one side by a wall ten feet high, made of double stockades of big trees, tied to each other by cross-beams fastened cross- wise, and stuffed up with red clay, solidly put together. This wall only surrounds the town on one side, there being on the other, where there is no wall, a morass and close underwood, which affords no little protection and strength to the town. The town possesses several gates, eight or nine feet in height and five in width, with doors made of a whole piece of wood, hanging or turning on a peg, like the peasant's fences here in this country [Holland].

The king's court is square, and stands at the right hand side when entering the town by the gate of Gotton [Gwato], and is certainly as large as the town of Harlem, and entirely surrounded by a special wall, like that which encircles the town. It is divided into many magnificent palaces, houses, and apartments of the courtiers, and comprises beautiful and long square galleries, about as large as the Exchange at Amsterdam, but one larger than another, resting on wooden pillars, from top to bottom covered with cast copper, on which are engraved the pictures of their war exploits and battles, and are kept very clean. Most palaces and the houses of the king are covered with palm leaves instead of square pieces of wood [shingles], and every roof is decorated with a small turret ending in a point, on which birds are standing, birds cast in copper with outspread wings, cleverly made after living models.

>>1756732

The town has thirty very straight and broad streets, every one of them about one hundred and twenty feet wide, or as wide as the Heeren or Keizersgracht [canals] at Amsterdam, from one row of the houses to the other, from which branch out many side streets, also broad, though less so than the main streets. The houses are built alongside the streets in good order, the one close to the other, as here in the country, adorned with gables and steps, and roofs made of palm or banana leaves, or leaves from other trees; they are not higher than a stadie, but usually broad with long galleries inside, especially so in the case of the houses of the nobility, and divided into many rooms which are separated by walls made of red clay, very well erected, and they can make and keep them as shiney and smooth by washing and rubbing as any wall in Holland can be made with chalk, and they are like mirrors. The upper storeys are made of the same sort of clay. Moreover, every house is provided with a well for the supply of fresh water: in short, the houses are built there more neatly than anywhere in that country.

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>>1756071

>mfw cucks actually believe this

>>1756732
>>1756735
That's pretty fucking neat.

Contrasts heavily with other descriptions of the Gold, ivory and slave coast.

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>>1756732
>benin
haha benin :-DDD

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>al-Biruni, describing the differences between Muslims/Persians and Hindus/Indians, 1030 AD

Before entering on our exposition, we must form an adequate idea of that which renders it so particularly difficult to penetrate to the essential nature of any Indian subject. The knowledge of these difficulties will either facilitate the progress of our work, or serve as an apology for any shortcomings of ours. For the reader must always bear in mind that the Hindus entirely differ from us in every respect, many a subject appearing intricate and obscure which would be perfectly clear if there were more connection between us. The barriers which separate Muslims and Hindus rest on different causes.

First, they differ from us in everything which other nations have in common. And here we first mention the language, although the difference of language also exists between other nations. If you want to conquer this difficulty (i.e. to learn Sanskrit), you will not find it easy, because the language is of an enormous range, both in words and inflections, something like the Arabic, calling one and the same thing by various names, both original and derived, and using one and the same word for a variety of subjects, which, in order to be properly understood, must be distinguished from each other by various qualifying epithets. For nobody could distinguish between the various meanings of a word unless he understands the context in which it occurs, and its relation both to the following and the preceding parts of the sentence. The Hindus, like other people, boast of this enormous range of their language, whilst in reality it is a defect.

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>>1756761
Later descriptions are much less flattering, partially because of rising prejudice but also because Benin was largely destroyed in the later 17th century during civil wars and never really regained its previous prosperity.

>>1756774
>I skipped parts here about how hard Sanskrit is too pronounce

Add to this that the Indian scribes are careless, and do not take pains to produce correct and well-collated copies. In consequence, the highest results of the author's mental development are lost by their negligence, and his book becomes already in the first or second copy so full of faults, that the text appears as something entirely new, which neither a scholar nor one familiar with the subject, whether Hindu or Muslim, could any longer understand. It will sufficiently illustrate the matter if we tell the reader that we have sometimes written down a word from the mouth of Hindus, taking the greatest pains to fix its pronunciation, and that afterwards when we repeated it to them, they had great difficulty in recognising it.

Besides, the scientific books of the Hindus are composed in various favourite metres, by which they intend, considering that the books soon become corrupted by additions and omissions, to preserve them exactly as they are, in order to facilitate their being learned by heart, because they consider as canonical only that which is known by heart, not that which exists in writing. Now it is well known that in all metrical compositions there is much misty and constrained phraseology merely intended to fill up the metre and serving as a kind of patchwork, and this necessitates a certain amount of verbosity. This is also one of the reasons why a word has sometimes one meaning and sometimes another.

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>>1756786
Secondly, they totally differ from us in religion, as we believe in nothing in which they believe, and vice versa. On the whole, there is very little disputing about theological topics among themselves; at the utmost, they fight with words, but they will never stake their soul or body or their property on religious controversy. On the contrary, all their fanaticism is directed against those who do not belong to them—against all foreigners. They call them mleccha, i.e. impure, and forbid having any connection with them, be it by intermarriage or any other kind of relationship, or by sitting, eating, and drinking with them, because thereby, they think, they would be polluted. They consider as impure anything which touches the fire and the water of a foreigner; and no household can exist without these two elements. Besides, they never desire that a thing which once has been polluted should be purified and thus recovered, as, under ordinary circumstances, if anybody or anything has become unclean, he or it would strive to regain the state of purity. They are not allowed to receive anybody who does not belong to them, even if he wished it, or was inclined to their religion. This, too, renders any connection with them quite impossible, and constitutes the widest gulf between us and them.

In the third place, in all manners and usages they differ from us to such a degree as to frighten their children with us, with our dress, and our ways and customs, and as to declare us to be devil's breed, and our doings as the very opposite of all that is good and proper. By the by, we must confess, in order to be just, that a similar depreciation of foreigners not only prevails among us and the Hindus, but is common to all nations towards each other.

>>1755604
Those were either shitty Buddhists or a shitty interpreter.

Or is it possible that the interpreter just didn't know how to convey Buddhist concepts (non-soul, enlightenment, etc.) to a westerner, and so just thought they were talking about the same thing?

>>1755646
No wonder everyone hated barbarians.

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>>1756811
Another circumstance which increased the already existing antagonism between Hindus and foreigners is that the so-called Shamaniyya (Buddhists), though they cordially hate the Brahmans, still are nearer akin to them than to others. In former times, Khurasan, Persis, 'Irak, Mosul, the country up to the frontier of Syria, was Buddhistic, but then Zarathustra went forth from Adharbaijan and preached Magism in Balkh (Baktra). His doctrine came into favour with King Gushtasp, and his son Isfendiyad spread the new faith both in east and west, both by force and by treaties. He founded fire-temples through his whole empire, from the frontiers of China to those of the Greek empire. The succeeding kings made their religion (i.e. Zoroastrianism) the obligatory state-religion for Persis and 'Irak. In consequence, the Buddhists were banished from those countries, and had to emigrate to the countries east of Balkh. There are some Magians up to the present time in India, where they are called Maga. From that time dates their aversion towards the countries of Khurasan. But then came Islam; the Persian empire perished, and the repugnance of the Hindus against foreigners increased more and more when the Muslims began to make their inroads into their country; for Muhammad Ibn Elkasim Ibn Elmunabbih entered Sindh from the side of Sijistan (Sakastene) and conquered the cities of Bahmanwa and Mulasthana, the former of which he called Al-mansura, the latter Al-ma'mura. He entered India proper, and penetrated even as far as Kanauj, marched through the country of Gandhara, and on his way back, through the confines of Kashmir, sometimes fighting sword in hand, sometimes gaining his ends by treaties, leaving to the people their ancient belief, except in the case of those who wanted to become Muslims. All these events planted a deeply rooted hatred in their hearts.

>>1755938
Probably not Andalusian since this is much after the conquest of Granada.

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>>1756114
>In the northern area there are many sheep; they grow from the earth and their navels are linked to the earth; they die if it is cut.

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>>1756840
Now in the following times no Muslim conqueror passed beyond the frontier of Kabul and the river Sindh until the days of the Turks, when they seized the power in Ghazna under the Samani dynasty, and the supreme power fell to the lot of Nasir-addaula Sabuktagin. This prince chose the holy war as his calling, and therefore called himself al-Ghazi (i.e. warring on the road of Allah). In the interest of his successors he constructed, in order to weaken the Indian frontier, those roads on which afterwards his son Yamin-addaula Mahmud marched into India during a period of thirty years and more. God be merciful to both father and son! Mahmud utterly ruined the prosperity of the country, and performed there wonderful exploits, by which the Hindus became like atoms of dust scattered in all directions, and like a tale of old in the mouth of the people. Their scattered remains cherish, of course, the most inveterate aversion towards all Muslims. This is the reason, too, why Hindu sciences have retired far away from those parts of the country conquered by us, and have fled to places which our hand cannot yet reach, to Kashmir, Benares, and other places. And there the antagonism between them and all foreigners receives more and more nourishment both from political and religious sources.

>>1756202
By "Franks" do they mean all Western Europeans? I know middle easterners had the tendency of calling everyone from the west "Franks".

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>>1756882
In the fifth place, there are other causes, the mentioning of which sounds like a satire—peculiarities of their national character, deeply rooted in them, but manifest to everybody. We can only say, folly is an illness for which there is no medicine, and the Hindus believe that there is no country but theirs, no nation like theirs, no kings like theirs, no religion like theirs, no science like theirs. They are haughty, foolishly vain, self-conceited, and stolid. They are by nature niggardly in communicating that which they know, and they take the greatest possible care to withhold it from men of another caste among their own people, still much more, of course. from any foreigner. According to their belief, there is no other country on earth but theirs, no other race of man but theirs, and no created beings besides them have any knowledge or science whatsoever. Their haughtiness is such that, if you tell them of any science or scholar in Khurasan and Persis, they will think you to be both an ignoramus and a liar. If they travelled and mixed with other nations, they would soon change their mind, for their ancestors were not as narrow-minded as the present generation is. One of their scholars, Varahamihira, in a passage where he calls on the people to honour the Brahmans, says: "The Greeks, though impure, must he honoured, since they were trained in sciences, and therein excelled others. What, then, are we to say of a Brahman, if he combines with his purity the height of science?"

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>>1756889
In former times, the Hindus used to acknowledge that the progress of science due to the Greeks is much more important than that which is due to themselves. But from this passage of Varahamihira alone you see what a self-lauding man he is, whilst he gives himself airs as doing justice to others. At first I stood to their astronomers in the relation of a pupil to his master, being a stranger among them and not acquainted with their peculiar national and traditional methods of science. On having made some progress, I began to show them the elements on which this science rests, to point out to them some rules of logical deduction and the scientific methods of all mathematics, and then they flocked together round me from all parts, wondering, and most eager to learn from me, asking me at the same time from what Hindu master I had learnt those things, whilst in reality I showed them what they were worth, and thought myself a great deal superior to them, disdaining to be put on a level with them. They almost thought me to be a sorcerer, and when speaking of me to their leading men in their native tongue, they spoke of me as 'the sea' or as 'the water which is so acid that vinegar in comparison is sweet.'

That's all I'll post but you can read more here; http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/texts/ldpd_5949073_001/index.html

>>1756886
Yes. Everyone Catholic basically.

>>1756811
Well at least their art had perky tits.

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>Ibn Battuta describes Constantinople, 1332

The city is enormous in size, and in two parts separated by a great river [the Golden Horn], in which there is a rising and ebbing tide. In former times there was a stone bridge over it, but it fell into ruins and the crossing is now made in boats. The part of the city on the eastern bank of the river is called Istambul, and contains the residence of the Emperor, the nobles and the rest of the population. Its bazaars and streets are spacious and paved with flagstones; each bazaar has gates which are closed upon it at night, and the majority of the artisans and sellers in them are women. The city lies at the foot of a hill which projects about nine miles into the sea, its breadth being the same or greater. On the top of the hill there is a small citadel and the Emperor's palace. Round this hill runs the city-wall, which is very strong and cannot be taken by assault from the sea front. Within its circuit there are about thirteen inhabited villages. The principal church is in the midst of this part of the city.

The second part, on the western bank of the river, is called Galata, and is reserved to the Frankish Christians who dwell there. They are of different kinds, including Genoese, Venetians, Romans [other Italians?] and people of France; they are subject to the authority of the king of Constantinople, who sets over them one of their own number of whom they approve, and him they call the Comes [count]. They are bound to pay a tax every year to the king of Constantinople, but often they revolt against him and he makes war on them until the Pope makes peace between them. They are all men of commerce and their harbour is one of the largest in the world; I saw there about a hundred galleys and other large ships, and the small ships were too many to be counted. The bazaars in this part of the town are good but filthy, and a small and very dirty river runs through them. Their churches too are filthy and mean.

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>>1757015
Of the great church I can only describe the exterior, for I did not see its interior. It is called by them Aya Sufiya, and the story goes that it was built by Asaph, the son of Berechiah, who was Solomon's cousin. It is one of the greatest churches of the Greeks, and is encircled by a wall so that it looks as if it were a town. It has thirteen gates and a sacred enclosure, which is about a mile long and closed by a great gate. No one is prevented from entering this enclosure, and indeed I went into it with the king's father; it resembles an audience-hall paved with marble, and is traversed by a stream which issues from the church. Outside the gate of this hall are platforms and shops, mostly of wood, where their judges and the recorders of their bureaux sit. At the gate of the church there are porticoes where the keepers sit who sweep its paths, light its lamps and close its gates.

They allow none to enter it until he prostrates himself to the huge cross there, which they claim to be a relic of the wood upon which the pseudo-Jesus was crucified. This is over the gate of the church, set in a golden case whose height is about ten cubits, across which a similar golden case is placed to form a cross. This gate is covered with plaques of silver and gold and its two rings are of pure gold.

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>>1757023
I was told that the number of monks and priests in this church runs into thousands, and that some of them are descendants of the apostles, and that inside it is another church exclusively for women, containing more than a thousand virgins and a still greater number of aged women who devote themselves to religious practices. It is the custom of the king, the nobles and the rest of the people to come every morning to visit this church. The Pope comes to visit it once a year [sic]. When he is four days' journey from the town the king goes out to meet him, and dismounts before him and when he enters the city walks on foot in front of him. During his stay in Constantinople the king comes to salute him every morning and evening.

A monastery is the Christian equivalent of a religious house or convent among the Muslims, and there are a great many such monasteries at Constantinople. Among them is the monastery which King George [Andronicos II] built outside Istambul and opposite Galata, and two monasteries outside the principal church, to the right as one enters it. These two monasteries are inside a garden traversed by a stream of water; one of them is for men and the other for women. In each there is a church and they are surrounded by the cells of men and women who have devoted themselves to religious exercises. Each monastery possesses pious endowments for the clothing and maintenance of the devotees. Inside every monastery there is a small convent designed for the ascetic retreat of the king who built it, for most of these kings, on reaching the age of sixty or seventy, build a monastery and put on garments of hair, investing their sons with the sovereignty and occupying themselves with religious exercises for the rest of their lives. They display great magnificence in building these monasteries, and construct them of marble and mosaic-work.

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>>1757031
I entered a monastery with the Greek whom the king had given me as a guide. Inside it was a church containing about five hundred virgins wearing hair-garments; their heads were shaved and covered with felt bonnets. They were exceedingly beautiful and showed the traces of their austerities. A youth sitting on a pulpit was reading the gospel to them in the most beautiful voice I have ever heard; round him were eight other youths on pulpits with their priest, and when the first youth had finished reading another began. The Greek said to me, "These girls are kings' daughters who have given themselves to the service of this church, and likewise the boys who are reading [are kings' sons]."

I entered with him also into churches in which there were the daughters of ministers, governors, and the principal men of the city, and others where there were aged women and widows, and others where there were monks, each church containing a hundred men or so. Most of the population of the city are monks, ascetics, and priests, and its churches are not to be counted for multitude. The inhabitants of the city, soldiers and civilians, small and great, carry over their heads huge parasols, both in winter and summer, and the women wear large turbans.

>>1757032
I was out one day with my Greek guide, when we met the former king George [Andronicos II] who had become a monk. He was walking on foot, wearing haircloth garments and a bonnet of felt, and he had a long white beard and a fine face, which bore traces of his austerities. Behind and before him was a body of monks, and he had a staff in his hand and a rosary on his neck. When the Greek saw him he dismounted and said to me, "Dismount, for this is the king's father." When my guide saluted him the king asked him about me, then stopped and sent for me. He took my hand and said to the Greek (who knew the Arabic tongue), "Say to this Saracen (meaning Muslim), 'I clasp the hand which has entered Jerusalem and the foot which has walked within the Dome of the Rock and the great church of the Holy Sepulchre and Bethlehem,'" and he laid his hand upon my feet and passed it over his face. I was astonished at their good opinion of one who, though not of their religion, had entered these places. Then he took my hand and as I walked with him asked me about Jerusalem and the Christians who were there, and questioned me at length.

I entered with him the sacred enclosure of the church which we have described above. When he approached the principal gate, a party of priests and monks came out to salute him, for he is one of their chief men in monasticism, and on seeing them he let go my hand. I said to him "I should like to enter the church with you." Then he said to the interpreter, "Say to him, 'He who enters it must needs prostrate himself before the great cross, for this is a rule which the ancients laid down and which cannot be contravened.'" So I left him and he entered alone and I did not see him again.

>>1757038
After leaving the king I entered the bazaar of the scribes, where I was noticed by the judge, who sent one of his assistants to ask the Greek about me. On learning that I was a Muslim scholar he sent for me and I went up to him. He was an old man with a fine face and hair, wearing the black garments of a monk, and had about ten scribes in front of him writing. He rose to meet me, his companions rising also, and [he] said, "You are the king's guest and we are bound to honour you." He then asked me about Jerusalem, Syria, and Egypt, and spoke with me for a long time. A great crowd gathered round him, and he said, "You must come to my house that I may entertain you." After that I went away, but I did not see him again.

>>1756889
>>1756895
Muslims really hated them didn't they?

>>1756843
I think enough refugees from Andalusia settled in North Africa for them to still be a notable community well into the 17th century.

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The negroes possess some admirable qualities. They are seldom unjust, and have a greater abhorrence of injustice than any other people. Their sultan shows no mercy to anyone who is guilty of the least act of it. There is complete security in their country. Neither traveller nor inhabitant in it has anything to fear from robbers or men of violence. They do not confiscate the property of any white man who dies in their country, even if it be uncounted wealth. On the contrary, they give it into the charge of some trustworthy person among the whites, until the rightful heir takes possession of it. They are careful to observe the hours of prayer, and assiduous in attending them in congregations, and in bringing up their children to them.

On Fridays, if a man does not go early to the mosque, he cannot find a corner to pray in, on account of the crowd. It is a custom of theirs to send each man his boy [to the mosque] with his prayer-mat; the boy spreads it out for his master in a place befitting him [and remains on it] until he comes to the mosque. Their prayer-mats are made of the leaves of a tree resembling a date-palm, but without fruit.

Another of their good qualities is their habit of wearing clean white garments on Fridays. Even if a man has nothing but an old worn shirt, he washes it and cleans it, and wears it to the Friday service. Yet another is their zeal for learning the Koran by heart. They put their children in chains if they show any backwardness in memorizing it, and they are not set free until they have it by heart. I visited the qadi in his house on the day of the festival. His children were chained up, so I said to him, "Will you not let them loose?" He replied, "I shall not do so until they learn the Koran by heart."

-Ibn Battuta

Among their bad qualities are the following. The women servants, slave-girls, and young girls go about in front of everyone naked, without a stitch of clothing on them. Women go into the sultan's presence naked and without coverings, and his daughters also go about naked. Then there is their custom of putting dust and ashes on their heads, as a mark of respect, and the grotesque ceremonies we have described when the poets recite their verses. Another reprehensible practice among many of them is the eating of carrion, dogs, and asses.

>>1757041
It was more a neighbor thing in this case, but the religious divide certainly didn't help.

>>1757060
>b-but muh genetics

>>1756895
>and when speaking of me to their leading men in their native tongue, they spoke of me as 'the sea' or as 'the water which is so acid that vinegar in comparison is sweet.'

What did he mean by this?

No really, I don't get the metaphor. Is it a compliment? An insult?

>>1757066
>Among their bad qualities are the following. The women servants, slave-girls, and young girls go about in front of everyone naked, without a stitch of clothing on them. Women go into the sultan's presence naked and without coverings, and his daughters also go about naked.

There are worse things I'm sure.

>>1757015
>>1757023
>>1757031
>>1757032
>>1757038
>>1757039
Thanks a lot, that was interesting.

>>1757041
Depends. al-Biruni seems to have been genuinely interested in them, even if he tended to criticize them, as did plenty of other Islamic scholars. Later Islamic rulers in India also tended to take a pretty open stance towards them, whether because of necessity or because of personal belief (as in the case of Akbar). On the other hand you also had the likes of Mahmud of Ghazni or Aurangzeb who tended towards fanaticism and persecution. Mahmud of Ghazni, al-Biruni's patron, was particularly bad, being more of a jihadist plunderer and vandal than an empire-builder.

File: quote-the-peoples-of-islam-will-always-be-closer-to-us-than-for-example-france-2nd-april-1945-adolf-hitler-55-12-55.jpg (54KB, 850x400px) Image search: [Google]

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>>1755815

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Heres a bunch of quotes from Germans talking about Americans in the after math of World War I

http://mentalfloss.com/article/57121/42-quotes-germans-about-american-troops-after-world-war-i

>>1757104
tl;dr

>>1757073
I don't really get it either. 'The sea' sounds like a compliment to me, but with the second part I have no idea.

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Aztec account of their meeting with Japanese 1610, who visited Mexico. This account was written by the descendant of Nahua lords, named Chimalpahin.

>>1757113
>>1757073
Hindu's can't cross the sea without becoming ritually impure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kala_pani_(taboo)

>>1757081
Degeneracy

Adam and Eve gave us shame

>>1757099
well, technically he turned out to be right :^)

>>1757111
tl;dr version: americans are laid back, eat a lot and aren't h8ers

>>1756355
No

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The Ming-shih (the official history of the Ming Dynasty) on the Byzantine Empire c.a 1400s.

"Fu-lin [Byzantium] is the same as Daqin [Rome] of the Han period. It first communicated with Zhongguo [China] at the time of the Emperor Huan-di [147-168 C.E.]. During the Jin and (Tuoba) Wei dynasties it was also called Daqin, and tribute was sent to Zhongguo. During the T'ang dynasty it was called Fu-lin. During the Song it was still so called, and they sent also tribute several times; yet the Song-shih says that during former dynasties they have sent no tribute to our court, which throws doubt on its identity with Daqin. At the close of the Yuan dynasty [1278-1368 C.E.] a native of this country, named Nieh-ku-lun (Fra. Nicolaus De Bentra, Archbishop of Beijing's Chink Catholics as of 1360's), came to Zhongguo for trading purposes."

>>1757213
Jej

Great thread so far.

>>1757262
When, after the fall of the Yuan, he was not able to return, the emperor Taizu (Posthumous Temple name of Hongwu Empero)r, who had heard of this, commanded him to his presence in the eighth month of the fourth year of the Hongwu reign [September 1371 C.E.] and gave orders that an official letter be placed into his hands for transmission to his king [His manifesto of accession, to be sent to the Byzantine Emperor proclaiming China being under new Ming Management]. And he again ordered the ambassador Pu-la and others to be provided with credentials and presents of silk for transmission to that country, who thereafter sent an embassy with tribute.

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>>1757276
But this embassy was, in the sequel, not repeated until during the Wan-li period [1573-1620 C.E.] a native from the great western ocean [Fra. Matteo Ricci--mentioned in a subsequent account of Italy as the foreigner who arrived] came to the capital who said that the Lord of Heaven, Ye-su, was born in Ju-de-a [Judea] which is a province of the old country of Daqin; that this country is known in the historical books to have existed since the creation of the world for the last 6,000 years; that it is beyond dispute the sacred ground of history and the origin of all wordly affairs; that it should be considered as the country where the Lord of Heaven created the human race.

This claim looks somewhat exaggerated and should not be trusted.

As regards the abundance of produce and other precious articles found in this country, accounts will be found in former annals."

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>>1757283
>This claim looks somewhat exaggerated and should not be trusted.

>“You Americans are not real the heart and soul in the war, are you? The French hate us because we took Alsace and Lerraine, but you only entered the war to make sure that England and France would be able to pay you the money you had lent them. For that reason we are glad that the country is being occupied by Americans instead of French or English. Row-boats were often used to deceive German U-boats, and when the letter came to render assistance concealed guns opened fire on the U-boats.”
—A German 12-year-old schoolboy

>>1757262
>Fu-lin [Byzantium] is the same as Daqin [Rome] of the Han period.
quite impressive that they connected the 2 considering how distorted their information was

>>1757298
To be fair Jericho is one of the oldest cities in the wrold.

>>1757070
A thousand year old recount of the most advanced empire in sub-Saharan Africa somehow manages to disprove genetics and modern science? You're so retarded that it makes me sad. At least I can take solace in the fact that you and I are not of the same species. Due to genetics, you see.

>>1757369
664 years actually

>>1756774
Funny how all these treaties and journey logs use pretty similar academic-ish style of writing, even if this one is written by a persian, decades before the Great Schism.

>>1756872
see
>>1756275

>>1757519

Only scholars could read. A much better time.

>>1756882
>his son Yamin-addaula Mahmud marched into India during a period of thirty years and more. God be merciful to both father and son! Mahmud utterly ruined the prosperity of the country, and performed there wonderful exploits, by which the Hindus became like atoms of dust scattered in all directions, and like a tale of old in the mouth of the people. Their scattered remains cherish, of course, the most inveterate aversion towards all Muslims. This is the reason, too, why Hindu sciences have retired far away from those parts of the country conquered by us, and have fled to places which our hand cannot yet reach, to Kashmir, Benares, and other places.
Muslims ruining everything, as always.

>>1757519
I think it's because a lot of these share a common foundation on Classical Greek writings on travel and geography.

>>1757031
>The Pope comes to visit it once a year. When he is four days' journey from the town the king goes out to meet him, and dismounts before him and when he enters the city walks on foot in front of him. During his stay in Constantinople the king comes to salute him every morning and evening.
Weird that they'd be so welcoming to him, given the Great Schism and East-West rivalry was so big.

>>1755540
>a means to denote the degrees of family relations, but it is degenerated and they don’t bother about it.
?

>>1757586
Some popes tried to work out a solution with them to mending the schism.

>>1757621
Oh?
Got any more info on them, except the political bull crap that was 2Lyons and Florence?

>>1757345
Late Rome and Byzantium is pretty much China's westernmost contacts. They often trade embassies and knew of each other's existence.

It was the Western Europeans who were new to them really, and the first ones they met were Italians.

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>>1755786
>>1756116
>>1756163
>>1757807
I know this isn't a primary source, but David Graff, who wrote this book (along with a more recent article on China and Byzantium and their dealing with the steppe militarily) really likes comparing China and Byzantium. I think it's something that needs to be explored more since there are so many fascinating parallels, but there is quite the barrier in terms of knowing all those languages.

how do they get placenames so wrong though? I mean, I get it that foreigners will make foreign words sound less foreign, but when a roman is like "A welcome to ROMA!" and the chinaman writes it as "Daqin"....

>>1757640
Unfortunately I don't remember the specifics, so I can't tell for sure this is the case for the mentioned date.

>>1756118
>a peace treaty
>was signed and every year the Fulin paid tributes of silk and gold to the Dashi as a vassal country

when is this? i thought the byzzies won the arab siege of constantinople

>>1758083
From what I've seen they had to fit the names into existing words because of how their writing system works. Since they had no word for "Rome" they have to get descriptive and not always rely specifically on phonetics. They do fit it into phonetics too though. I think the "Da-" prefix means "great". From what I remember they called Greco-Bactrians "Dayuan", which could mean "Great Ionians". It makes sense since everyone east of Greece called Greeks "Ionians". Daqin is probably a comparison to the Qin state or something similar.

>>1756275
>what the fuck Zhi is.
shark maybe?

>>1757548
pagan cow worshippers btfo

>>1758083
Daqin refers to the Han Period Chinese comparison of the Roman empire to the Qin dynasty.

Basically "Great Qin in the West."

Fulin means "New Wealth" and refers to the Chinese belief that there was a point in Daqin history that they suffered terrible calamity- marked by the lack of embassies from Rome, and China's own chaotic Nanbeichao Period.

When the first Embassies (from the Byzantine half) reached them, they assumed that it was over and a New period has come over Daqin.

>>1757807
It is speculated that an account of mercenaries ,hired by the chinese, who used "large shields" and threw spears at the enemy for great effect, were legionaries.

>>1758140
fascinating!

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>>1755938
>the Sword of God on Earth against the idol-worshipers [ie the Catholics]

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>>1757548
>"i-i-it's only hyperbole and poetic license, Muslim conquerors dindu nuffin wrong!"

t. Indian Marxist historian

>>1757592
Probably Arab tribal bullshit. clans, tribes and subtribes. Evidently they didn't take tribes seriously at that point, which is funny considering how autistic some of them still are about it.

>>1758174
Hey what else would you call it?

>>1757586
I assume by 'Pope' he meant the Patriarch of Constantinople.

>>1757060
Nice to see Africans portrayed in a positive light.

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"The view of this extensive city, the numerous canoes on the river, the crowded population, and the cultivated state of the surrounding countryside, formed altogether a prospect of civilization and magnificence that I little expected to find in the bosom of Africa.

-Mungo Park

Arab descriptions of the Byzantines (Romans) from 700AD. Even though these states bordered each other, it is good to remember that diplomatic feedback between the two was minor and they existed in a continuous state of war, so both worlds were alien to each other.

>they are a many headed hydra every time a head is cut off another grows back
>they possess knowledge of wealth creating alchemy
>they use spies to discover our weaknesses and invade our lands, they break truces
>The Romans are renowned mizers, and their language does not have a word for generosity
>The Romans are very beautiful, especially their women. The best of whom were blond with blue eyes.
>You should beware Roman women as they are notoriously promiscuous and would make cuckolds of the Arab men they seduce. No wonder so many Roman men joined monasteries rather than face such humiliation.

>>1757104
Reading a lot of these made me happy. If only American soldiers these days could have the same attitude to the countries they occupy.

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>>1756267
>>1756872
it's cotton, come on

>>1758140
>Fulin means "New Wealth"
Simply wrong. The two characters stand for some completely irrelevant herbs. It's probably some fifth or sixth handed transliteration.

>>1755540
>whereas when they drink alcohol,
So where the hell did the ban on alcohol come from?

>>1759681
The people often don't give a damn about ban on alcohol. Many ottoman sultans were horrible drunkards.

>>1759681
>>1759861
Technically only drunkedness is haram, alcohol itself is simply advised against.

>>1756116
https://www.amazon.com/Maurices-Strategikon-Handbook-Byzantine-Military/dp/0812217721

20 bucks, brah.

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>tfw half-Arab
Feels GREAT man.

>>1760191
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&tn=strategikon

Fuck Amazon.
I work at a "fulfillment center" and if you buy that book from Amazon I will personally fuck it up.

oh man i want ibn battuta's book but the things expensive as hell

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>>1760218
Well fuck, anon. I was just proving the thing is widely available in English.

>>1758631
>ancient hot blondes cucking people;
I hate to be THAT GUY, but we should post this on /pol/

>>1757099
Implying we want to be close with the germans.

>>1755978
Sauce?

>>1760268
>around germans and french always revanche

>>1755938
>protie cucks

Everytime

>>1760286
Mid to late 20th century writer.

I just found out I never bothered to note this one down.

>>1760301
>Not using muslims to rid the earth of the idolatrous stain called Catholicism.

>>1755568
Ctetias also wrote a Persian and Indian histories a generation after Herodotus as a rebut to him. He also served as a physician to Darius the 2 and artaxerxes, and although his historical accounts in his persica don't align with archeological findings and historical records, they're pretty valuable because they're likely showing the Persian perspective of the eastern empires before them and their own (like how Cyrus wasn't left to exposure as a child, but was the son of a brigade who rose through the ranks of the median court from cup bearer to emperor, and promoted his dad to satrap). I'm not sure about the Indian one of his, and how much fragments survive. His Persian one was more historically popular and just in recent history got translated into a modern language (which I think all the fragments translated in their own book was in English by some obscure classicists -- one of them who did it for his grad thesis).

>>1760312
and 400 years afterwards asking "why is the Middle East so hard to convert, and why are protestants getting persecuted by muslims there?"

>>1760194
What's your other half?

>>1760517
different half-arab here. Half-dutch.

feels good, man

>>1755560

Asian conquerors killed more than Yuropean ones anon.

Even Genghis was banging bitches so much his genetics is all over the place

>>1760240
http://wdb.ugr.es/~proyecto_viajeros/recursos/textos/musulmanes/batuta_e.pdf

I'd post some of it here but you can't copy and paste the text.

Ibn Khaldun didn't like Arabs much.

>Places that succumb to the Arabs are quickly ruined
>The reason for this is that (the Arabs) are a savage nation, fully accustomed to savagery and the things that cause it. Savagery has become their character and nature. They enjoy it, because it means freedom from authority and no subservience to leadership. Such a natural disposition is the negation and antithesis of civilization. All the customary activities of the Arabs lead to travel and movement. This is the antithesis and negation of stationariness, which produces civilization. For instance, the Arabs need stones to set them up as supports for their cooking pots. So, they take them from buildings which they tear down to get the stones, and use them for that purpose. Wood, too, is needed by them for props for their tents and for use as tent poles for their dwellings. So, they tear down roofs to get the wood for that purpose. The very nature of their existence is the negation of building, which is the basis of civilization. This is the case with them quite generally.
>Furthermore, it is their nature to plunder whatever other people possess. Their sustenance lies wherever the shadow of their lances falls. They recognize no limit in taking the possessions of other people. Whenever their eyes fall upon some property, furnishings, or utensils, they take it. When they acquire superiority and royal authority, they have complete power to plunder (as they please). There no longer exists any political (power) to protect property, and civilization is ruined.
>Furthermore, since they use force to make craftsmen and professional workers do their work, they do not see any value in it and do not pay them for it. Now, as we shall mention, labor is the real basis of profit. When labor is not appreciated and is done for nothing, the hope for profit vanishes, and no (productive) work is done. The sedentary population disperses, and civilization decays.

>>1761032

>Furthermore, (the Arabs) are not concerned with laws. (They are not concerned) to deter people from misdeeds or to protect some against the others. They care only for the property that they might take away from people through looting and imposts. When they have obtained that, they have no interest in anything further, such as taking care of (people), looking after their interests, or forcing them not to commit misdeeds. They often level fines on property, because they want to get some advantage, some tax, or profit out of it. This is their custom. It does not help to prevent misdeeds or to deter those who undertake to commit (misdeeds). On the contrary, it increases (misdeeds), because as compared to getting what one wants, the (possible financial) loss (through fines) is insignificant.
>Under the rule of (the Arabs), the subjects live as in a state of anarchy, without law. Anarchy destroys mankind and ruins civilization, since, as we have stated, the existence of royal authority is a natural quality of man. It alone guarantees their existence and social organization. That was mentioned above at the beginning of the chapter.
>Furthermore, (every Arab) is eager to be the leader. Scarcely a one of them would cede his power to another, even to his father, his brother, or the eldest (most important) member of his family. That happens only in rare cases and under pressure of considerations of decency. There are numerous authorities and amirs among them. The subjects have to obey many masters in connection with the control of taxation and law. Civilization, thus, decays and is wiped out.
>'Abd-al-Malik asked one Arab who had come to him on an embassy about al-Hajjaj. He wanted him to praise al-Hajjaj for his good political leadership (for the benefit of) civilization. But the Arab said: "When I left him, he was acting unjustly all by himself."

>>1761033

>It is noteworthy how civilization always collapsed in places the Arabs tookover and conquered, and how such settlements were depopulated and the (very) earth there turned into something that was no (longer) earth. The Yemen where (the Arabs) live is in ruins, except for a few cities. Persian civilization in the Arab 'Iraq is like wise completely ruined. The same applies to contemporary Syria. When the Banu Hilal and the Banu Sulaym pushed through (from their homeland) to Ifrigiyah and the Maghrib in (the beginning of) the fifth [eleventh] century and struggled there for three hundred and fifty years, they attached themselves to (the country), and the flat territory in (the Maghrib) was completely ruined. Formerly, the whole region between the Sudan and the Mediterranean had been settled. This (fact) is attested by the relics of civilization there, such as monuments, architectural sculpture, and the visible remains of villages and hamlets.

>>1761032
Wasn't he an arab himself?

>>1761040
Yes, but he was more specifically talking about tribal nomadic Arabs in that passage. He also calls them much braver and closer to the natural state of man than sedentary people, who he calls lazy, so it's not really a black and white thing.

>Sedentary people are much concerned with all kinds of pleasures. They are accustomed to luxury and success in worldly occupations and to indulgence in worldly desires. Therefore, their souls are colored with all kinds of blameworthy and evil qualities. The more of them they possess, the more remote do the ways and means of goodness become to them. Eventually they lose all sense of restraint. Many of them are found to use improper language in their gatherings as well as in the presence of their superiors and womenfolk. They are not deterred by any sense of restraint, because the bad custom of behaving openly in an improper manner in both words and deeds has taken hold of them. Bedouins may be as concerned with worldly affairs as (sedentary people are). However, such concern would touch only the necessities of life and not luxuries or anything causing, or calling for, desires and pleasures. The customs they follow in their mutual dealings are, therefore, appropriate. As compared with those of sedentary people, their evil ways and blameworthy qualities are much less numerous. They are closer to the first natural state and more remote from the evil habits that have been impressed upon the souls (of sedentary people) through numerous and ugly, blameworthy customs. Thus, they can more easily be cured than sedentary people. This is obvious. It will later on become clear that sedentary life constitutes the last stage of civilization and the point where it begins to decay. It also constitutes the last stage of evil and of remoteness from goodness. It has thus become clear that Bedouins are closer tobeing good than sedentary people. "God loves those who fear God."

>>1761034
>>1761033
>>1761032
tbf the arab world got fucked pretty hard after the mongols. also he lives during tamerlane conquest and iirc he personally participated in campaign against him. you can just imagine all the shit he saw right then

>>1761086
Yeah, a lot of the destruction he ascribes to Arabs in Persia and Syria really had more to do with Turks or Mongols. Most of what he says about Arabs could really just be about nomads in general, but generally in his writing when he contrasts nomads with agriculturalists he uses Arabs or Bedouins as an example, I guess because those would be the most relevant to him living in North Africa.

I was looking through that same book by Ibn Khaldun and came across this. It's not really that relevant to the thread, but I feel like it's worth posting;

>Then, the religion of the Messiah was adopted by the Romans. It became their religious practice to venerate the Messiah (Jesus). The Roman rulers vacillated, adopting Christianity at one time and giving it up at another, until Constantine appeared. His mother Helena became a Christian. She traveled to Jerusalem in search of the wood upon which the Messiah had been crucified, in the opinion of (the Christians). The priests informed her that his cross had been thrown to the ground and had been covered with excrements and filth. She discovered the wood and built "the Church of the Excrements" over the place where those excrements had been. The Church is considered by the Christians to stand upon the grave of the Messiah. Helena destroyed the parts of the House (the Temple) that she found standing. She ordered dung and excrements to be thrown upon the Rock, until it was entirely covered and its site obscured. That she considered the proper reward for what (the Jews) had done to the grave of the Messiah.

Apparently this story came from a misreading of the Church of the Resurrection, or 'qiyamah', as excrement, or 'qumamah'.

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Can we also post depictions of other cultures? Pic related is an Indo-Persian depiction of conquistadors observing an Aztec temple, from a copy of the Tarjomeh-e ta’rîkh-e yangî, or 'Translation of the History of the New World'.

An extract from the text;
>In the aforementioned temple there was a group of wretched men, a sign of a calamitous fall from greatness, who stayed there ready for human sacrifice. They did not let into the temple those who came without a sacrifice and they hit them.

>>1760264
You misunderstand. It was saying that Byzantine women are sluts who would sleep around behind your back, and that Byzantine men flock to become robots and NEETs because of it.

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>>1760312
>Implying

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India and Tibet depicted in the Mongol-Persian world history, the Jami al-Tawarik, c. 1314 AD.

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>>1761434
The same manuscript, depicting a Chinese emperor of the Later Liang Dynasty.

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>>1761447
A later (c. 1470-1500 AD) Iranian depiction of a Chinese woman, from around Tabriz.

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>>1761462
Plus a Chinese man.

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>>1761470
Two Daoist immortals.

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>>1761475
And two Buddhist luohans.

I have seen the Rus as they came on their merchant journeys and encamped by the Itil. I have never seen more perfect physical specimens, tall as date palms, blond and ruddy; they wear neither tunics nor kaftans, but the men wear a garment which covers one side of the body and leaves a hand free. Each man has an axe, a sword, and a knife, and keeps each by him at all times. Each woman wears on either breast a box of iron, silver, copper, or gold; the value of the box indicates the wealth of the husband. Each box has a ring from which depends a knife. The women wear neck-rings of gold and silver. Their most prized ornaments are green glass beads. They string them as necklaces for their women.

Ibn Fadlan, on the Rus merchants at Itil, 922.

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>>1761486
Mughal depiction of a European.

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>>1761494
A Persian one.

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>>1761505
And another.

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Benin :DDDDD depictions of the Portuguese.

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>>1761520

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>>1761524

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>>1761531

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>>1761541

>>1755560
Does it hurt being that dense?

>>1761447
dude looks like he's throwing some sick shapes

>>1756010
Not surprising, considering many of the Roman descriptions were second hand accounts relayed from the Persians.

There is this difference between us, that even if the barbarians do the same things that we [the people of the Roman Empire] do, our sins are still more grievous than theirs. For our vices and theirs can be equal without their guilt being as great as ours. All of them, as I said before, are either pagans or heretics. I shall discuss the pagans first, since theirs is the older delusion: among these, the nation of the Saxons is savage, the Franks treacherous, the Gepids ruthless, the Huns lewd ---- so we see that the life of all the barbarians is full of vice.

Can you say that their vices imply the same guilt as ours, that the lewdness of the Huns is as sinful as ours, the treachery of the Franks as worthy of accusation, the drunkenness of the Alemanni as reprehensible as that of Christians, the greed of an Alan as much to be condemned as that of a believer? If a Hun or Gepid is deceitful what wonder is it in one who is utterly ignorant of the guilt involved in falsehood? If a Frank swears falsely, what is strange in his action, since he thinks perjury a figure of speech, and not a crime? And why is it strange that the barbarians have this degree of vice, since they know not the law and God, when a majority of the Romans, who know that they are sinning, take the same attitude?

>Salvianus, bishop of Massilia (Marseilles) in the 5th century AD during the collapse of the Western Roman Empire.

>>1760517
Other half is complicated.

Mom's dad's side is all German (Braun family).

Mom's mom was from Alaska and her family was Scottish and Swedish (Scots came from the MacGregor family, but not sure about the Swedes).

>>1755604
>you will never shitpost in medieval times
>your shitposts will never enter historical record as important cultural exchanges

>>1761406
That makes it even more worth posting on /pol/.

>>1761122
>Apparently this story came from a misreading of the Church of the Resurrection, or 'qiyamah', as excrement, or 'qumamah'.

I wonder what else things like this slipped through?

>>1757142
>shaved foreheads
>tonsured hair
Isn't that the Qing haircut?

>>1757041
In this specific case the man seems sensible and his criticism grounded on truth (or at least true experiences). He actually sounds pretty chill in his tone, considering he's basically telling us how all India hates his people.

>>1757059
This is true.

>>1757153
Holy shit why is hinduism so complicated and full of retarded prohibitions?

>>1764295
Why Jews? Why Muslims? Why Christians? Why ancient Egypt?

>>1761462
>>1761447
>>1761470
Holy shit, that's amazing considering what lack of resources and information they had to work with.

>>1764276
Sounded to me like a man frustrated to see a people which used to be more open and scientifically advanced stagnate and closing itself in denial because of decadence instead of trying to face it

>>1757262
>Archbishop of Beijing's Chink Catholics as of 1360's

The word is Chinese Catholics you fucking /pol/tard

File: Kikukawa_School,_Ota_Nampo,_Erotic_Album.jpg (436KB, 1412x1000px) Image search: [Google]

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Japanese Shunga depicting Dutch merchant with a Japanese prostitute

>>1758083
I think in this specific case it's because they identified Rome with a mythical chinese empire in the West.

Or maybe they just didn't give a fuck. I mean, they would not be the only ones. Greco-romans called Kartli (Georgia) "Iberia" for no fucking reason.

>>1758104
Calling the dude who pays you to not attack him "a vassal" is a pretty old thing in the middle east. The Roman empwror was often officially considered a vassal or subordinate ruler by the Sasanians for this reason, even if the persians themselves were well aware that it was bullshit.>>1758116

>>1759681
From Muhammad. Yet there's plenty of muslims rulers (some of them very pious) who were killed by their own alcoholism. Islam, like christianity, is too complex for everyone to follow it 100%. It's taken for granted in abrahamic faiths that everyone is a sinner in some way or another.

>>1760176
I doubt it. If it's true, no muslim I know acts according to that. They consider it a prohibition, the ones who respect it and the ones who break it.

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>>1764320
So I'm looking at an ancient hentai panel right now?

>>1760321
Do you happen to know how accurate is the portayal of persians in Xenophont's Cyropaedia? I assume not much.

>>1761040
>>1761032

By arabs ibn Khaldun is talking about arabs from Arabia, or basically what today we would call bedouins. Panarabism didn't exist yet, specially since it wasn't needed with the umma still being a serious thing.

>>1764357
Muslims today dont know shit about Islam and even less about their own history

>>1761374
That's awesome anon, the whole thread is great but you made my day.

>>1755646
It is a pretty good movie.

>>1764191
Probably just that comical samurai hairstyle. You know which one.

>>1764314
That too, but he isn't specially bitter about it. Could be insulting the indians way worse.

>>1764381

The average person knows shit about their origins, their beliefs (religious, political, or ideological), and history in general.

>>1756048
>Is the 18th Century just filled with Brits talking shit about places
Its sorta easy to do that once you leave London, your private estate is nice, you forget you have a segregated underclass living in permanent smog.

But they often have valid points.
I.E Euro trade guilds got so powerful the esteemed craftsmen had reasonable ways to do stuff.

>>1756332
All they had to do, was to reunify.
All the Mongols really showcases, was that a lot of empires wasn't stable for shit.

>>1764494
No, the Mongols also fucked up the irrigation systems that made Babylon the Fertile Crescent. They devastated the region, and they never recovered from that shock.

>>1764494
Yeah, just reunify. The real empires did it all the time.

>>1764295
Brahmanic traditions mixed with nascent nationalism became restrictive mores that turn into nonsense. Also north Indians at this period were fucking mentally retarded. The collapse of the Guptas let to large amounts of sakas and other horse nomads to mix with the locals. The Kushans and sakas became the competent Gurjara Pratiharas but when the hepathlites mixed with the locals in turn became the total wastes of space that were the Chauhan Rajputs of Ajmer and Delhi and the before mentioned Gurjaras collapsed as well and Rajputs took over Chauhans being the most powerful but even at that they frequently fought each other like their nomad ancestors which checked from expanding or evolution into a sedentary civilized culture capable of reasoning and logic.

In comparison check south India. The Cheras were renowned sailors and traders and the Cholas who conquered the cheras and srilanka along withe the eastern coast of india launched yearly raids on south east Asia and nearly broke the srivijayas.

>>1764500
>Has ancient tech to make region irrigated
>Can't even repair it
Plebs

>>1764320
BIG
DUTCH
DICKS

>>1764320
delete this!

File: Kilwa Small Mosque (later 15th century AD).jpg (623KB, 1024x724px) Image search: [Google]

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>>1758436
He also portrayed Kilwa positively;
>We stayed one night in this island [Mombasa], and then pursued our journey to Kulwa, which is a large town on the coast. The majority of its inhabitants are Zanj, jet-black in colour, and with tattoo marks on their faces. I was told by a merchant that the town of Sufala lies a fortnight's journey [south] from Kulwa and that gold dust is brought to Sufala from Yufi in the country of the Limis, which is a month's journey distant from it. Kulwa is a very fine and substantially built town, and all its buildings are of wood. Its inhabitants are constantly engaged in military expeditions, for their country is contiguous to the heathen Zanj.
>The sultan at the time of my visit was Abu'l-Muzaffar Hasan, who was noted for his gifts and generosity. He used to devote the fifth part of the booty made on his expeditions to pious and charitable purposes, as is prescribed in the Koran, and I have seen him give the clothes off his back to a mendicant who asked him for them. When this liberal and virtuous sultan died, he was succeeded by his brother Dawud, who was at the opposite pole from him in this respect. Whenever a petitioner came to him, he would say, "He who gave is dead, and left nothing behind him to be given." Visitors would stay at his court for months on end, and finally he would make them some small gift, so that at last people gave up going to his gate.

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>>1764666
Somalia was more of a mixed bag.
>Zayla is a large city with a great bazaar, but it is the dirtiest, most abominable, and most stinking town in the world. The reason for the stench is the quantity of its fish and the blood of the camels that they slaughter in the streets. When we got there, we chose to spend the night at sea, in spite of its extreme roughness, rather than in the town, because of its filth.
>On leaving Zayla we sailed for fifteen days and came to Maqdasha [Mogadishu], which is an enormous town. Its inhabitants are merchants and have many camels, of which they slaughter hundreds every day [for food]. When a vessel reaches the port, it is met by sumbuqs, which are small boats, in each of which are a number of young men, each carrying a covered dish containing food. He presents this to one of the merchants on the ship saying "This is my guest," and all the others do the same. Each merchant on disembarking goes only to the house of the young man who is his host, except those who have made frequent journeys to the town and know its people well; these live where they please. The host then sells his goods for him and buys for him, and if anyone buys anything from him at too low a price, or sells to him in the absence of his host, the sale is regarded by them as invalid. This practice is of great advantage to them.

>>1764674
do you have the one about southeast asia?

>>1764692
The site I'm getting these from only includes extracts, and for some reason it skips the parts about Central Asia, India, Southeast Asia and China.

You can still find those parts here >>1760975 (Southeast Asia starts on page 199, keep in mind that what he call 'Java' is actually modern Sumatra) but you can't copy and paste the text.

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>>1764692
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Travels_of_Marco_Polo/Book_3/Chapter_6

When you sail from Chamba, 1500 miles in a course between south and south-east, you come to a great Island called Java. And the experienced mariners of those Islands who know the matter well, say that it is the greatest Island in the world, and has a compass of more than 3000 miles. It is subject to a great King and tributary to no one else in the world. The people are Idolaters. The Island is of surpassing wealth, producing black pepper, nutmegs, spikenard, galingale, cubebs, cloves, and all other kinds of spices.

This Island is also frequented by a vast amount of shipping, and by merchants who buy and sell costly goods from which they reap great profit. Indeed the treasure of this Island is so great as to be past telling. And I can assure you the Great Kaan (mongol khan)never could get possession of this Island, on account of its great distance, and the great expense of an expedition thither. The merchants of Zayton (cantoon) and Manzi (?) draw annually great returns from this country.

Here's the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea, a 1st century Greek guide to the Indian Ocean trade; http://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/ancient/periplus.asp

It mostly concentrates on markets though, so there's not that much cultural content.

I am surprised at how many good threads are alive and running right now.

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>>1755535

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Tang dynasty figurine of a Sogdian merchant.

Here's a book about Chinese and Islamic (specifically Middle Eastern) knowledge of one another in the Middle Ages. I haven't read it yet but it seems like something you guys would be interested in.

http://www.culturaldiplomacy.org/academy/pdf/research/books/cultural_exchange/Mapping_the_Chinese_and_Islamic_Worlds_-_Cross-Cultural_Exchange_in_Pre-Modern_Asia.pdf

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>>1765227

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>>1765228

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>>1765232

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>>1765235

File: Figurine_of_a_foreigner_with_wineskin,_China,_Tang_dynasty,_c._675-750,_glazed_earthenware_-_Royal_Ontario_Museum_-_DSC04052.jpg (4MB, 3144x4753px) Image search: [Google]

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>>1765236

File: MMA 2012 - China - Tang - 7c - Dancer.jpg (353KB, 678x1024px) Image search: [Google]

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>>1765239
A western dancer.

>>1764357

It actually became a literary trope for many founding dynasties to write about their drunkenness before they were 'born again' to the calling of true faith and social justice, becoming sober and somber conquerors worthy to usurp whoever it was they had just replaced as sultan.

I also think the attitude towards alcohol in Medieval Islam reflects their approach to religious law where the exacting letter of the sharia was more important than the spirit of it. Thus the more modern Muslim attitude where the production, distribution, and sale of alcohol is prohibited was absent in a society where the only sin was public drunkenness.

>>1756171
These guys belived that all kind of wonderful things exist in the undiscovered lands and would not be that surprised to see some odyssey type shit. We are the ones who wouldn't be able to handle something similar because we believe that we know everything.

>>1764320
>Japanese Shunga depicting Dutch merchant with a Japanese prostitute
TULIPED

>>1765773
I don't know, I think someone from today who visited 3000 years in the future (to be fair maybe less, since development seems to be speeding up) would be more well prepared than someone from ancient greece visiting today, with the knowledge of what journey they're undertaking. Our concept of historical development is much more advanced than the greeks, we could accept the entire world metamorphosing in ways completely unexpected, all the odyssey type societies and shit seem to be reflections of the greeks themselves, kings, virtue, people with faces on their chests, very out-there but still sort of familiar. I've never heard a greek legend about people who can all communicate with one another at any distance, who fly planes and ride cars, with fake worlds that you can view and interact with through a screen, and who have beliefs about the world and cosmos not just unique to their society, but with mountains of evidence that any professor could ruthlessy throw at a greek scholar protesting them.

We've been prepared by two centuries of sci-fi attempting to portray the most alien, inhuman societies, we should be as prepared as you could come. Of course this is all talking learned men, not peasants or normalfags.

Besides, even if it didn't completely destroy their worldview, it would still be fucking incredible.

>>1755716
I think about this shit all the time

>>1766039
>you will never unleash socrates onto 4chan

>>1766041
>show a Roman 4chan
>it's just like the walls back home

>>1766069
>show a Roman 4chan
>the Roman goes back and starts shitposting on walls, kicking the whole thing off in the first place

>>1764320

FUCKA YUUUUUU KEESUUU

>>1757104
>“The Americans [POWs] were the chief complainers when the food was bad which was always.”
lel

>>1766041
I usually think George Washington, showing him how America and it's position in the world has changed and evolved since his time.

I also think of inventors/industrialists like Henry Ford and not only showing him things like modern cars but new technology and shit, I think it would blow their minds

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>>1766069
>>1766041
>show Voltaire 4chan
>
>
>

Sima Qian’s account of the Parthian empire, late 2nd century BC

>The Parthian Empire [Anxi] is situated several thousand li [1 li = approximately ½ kilometer] west of the region of the Great Yuezhi. The people are settled on the land, cultivating the fields and growing rice and wheat. They also make wine out of grapes. They have walled cities like the people of
Dayuan, the region containing several hundred cities of various sizes. The kingdom, which borders the Gui [Oxus] river, is very large, measuring several
thousand li square. Some of the inhabitants are merchants who travel by carts or boats to neighboring countries, sometimes journeying several
thousand li. The coins of the country are made of silver and bear the face of the king. When the king dies, the currency is immediately changed and
new coins issued with the face of his successor. The people keep records by writing horizontally on strips of leather….
>When the Han envoys first visited the kingdom of Parthia, the king of Parthia dispatched a party of twenty thousand horsemen to meet them on
the eastern border of his kingdom. The capital of the kingdom is several thousand li from the eastern border, and as the envoys proceeded there
they passed through twenty or thirty cities inhabited by great numbers of people. When the Han envoys set out again to return to China, the king
of Parthia dispatched envoys of his own to accompany them, and after the latter had visited China and reported on its great breadth and might, the
king sent some of the eggs of the great birds which live in the region, and skilled tricksters of Lixuan, to the Han court as gifts.

>"A Journey Beyond the Three Seas" is a Russian literary monument in the form of travel notes, made by a merchant from Tver, Afanasiy Nikitin during his journey to India in 1466-1472.

http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/nikitin_wielhorsky.pdf

>>1766690
This is brilliant, thank you.

>>1766690
Something interesting I noticed;
>In traveling every [Hindu] has a stone pot to cook his broth in. They take care that Mohammedans do not look into their pot, nor see their food, and should this happen they will not eat it; some, therefore, hide themselves under a linen cloth lest they should be seen when eating.

Seems to be the same attitude towards foreign 'pollution' described here >>1756811 four and a half centuries earlier.

Islam as described by the Chinese literati Wu Jian of Sanshan, on a stele erected in 1350 AD

>In the beginning, the king of Medina, Peyghambar Muhammad, was born and possessed by holy spirits. He governed with virtue, and his subjects subjugated all of the countries in the western region, and all of the people called Muhammad the sage. Peyghambar was like the Chinese word for “prophet,” and in general is an honorary title. His religion considers that everything originates from Heaven. Heaven is incomparable; therefore, there is no image for Heaven for the most devoted. Every year there is one month of fasting when one changes clothes and bathes oneself, and moves to a quiet place to live in. They prostrate toward the west to worship Heaven every day and cleanse [their] heart, and recite scripture. The scripture was handed down by the Heavenly being. It consists of 30 volumes, 134 chapters, or 6,666 sections, all of which contain profound and subtle ideas. The doctrine is deep and sophisticated, and it models on being just and unselfish and straightening mind and cultivating virtue. Their duty is to go on pilgrimage, educate people, and save the miserable from danger. They have to repent for self-reform, deal with themselves properly and others modestly, be mindful of their own conduct at home and abroad, and not to permit [themselves] to go astray to the least degree. Up to now it has been over 800 years [since the rise of this religion], and the country and people firmly adhere to the faith, so that even when living in foreign lands they transmit the faith to their descendants, and the generations of their descendants have never strayed from it.

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>The Hundred-word Eulogy (百字讃 bǎizìzàn) is a 100-character praise of Islam and the Islamic prophet Muhammad written by the Hongwu Emperor of China (r. 1368-1398) founder of the Ming dynasty. Copies of it are on display in several mosques in Nanjing, China.[1]

至聖百字讃

乾坤初始

天籍注名

傳教大聖

降生西域

授受天經

三十部册

普化衆生

億兆君師

萬聖領袖

協助天運

保庇國民

五時祈祐

默祝太平

存心真主

加志窮民

拯救患難

洞徶幽冥

超拔靈魂

脱離罪業

仁覆天下

道冠古今

降邪歸一

教名清真

穆罕默德

至聖貴人

穆罕默德

清真北寺

Since the creation of the universe
God had already appointed his great faith-preaching man,
From the West he was born,
And received the holy scripture
And book made of 30 parts (Juz)
To guide all creations,
Master of all rulers,
Leader of the holy ones,
With support from the Heavens,
To protect his nation,
With five daily prayers,
Silently praying for peace,
His heart directed towards Allah,
Giving power to the poor,
Saving them from calamity,
Seeing through the Unseen,
Pulling the souls and the spirits away from all wrongdoings,
Mercy to the world,
Transversing the ancient, Majestic path,
vanquishing away all evil,
His religion, Pure and True,
Muhammad, The Noble Great One

>>1755597
>>1767064

turns out more gods-one god-no god is not such a simple or universal concept across cultures

seems like that european for example couldnt even articulate the notion of a religion with no god being wordhiped, and the chinese guy literaly not understanding that muslims worship a god

>>1755646
>>1755665
>>1755671
This is the only written account of a Viking ship funeral btw

>>1767161
>the chinese guy literaly not understanding that muslims worship a god
When he talks about worshiping 'Heaven' ('Tian') he does essentially mean 'God', or at least the closest thing the Chinese have to a concept of a supreme God.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tian
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_names_for_the_God_of_Abrahamic_religions

Later on the Jesuits actually used the same concept when trying to explain Christianity to the Chinese; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianzhu_(Chinese_name_of_God)

>>1756811
>In the third place, in all manners and usages they differ from us to such a degree as to frighten their children with us, with our dress, and our ways and customs, and as to declare us to be devil's breed, and our doings as the very opposite of all that is good and proper. By the by, we must confess, in order to be just, that a similar depreciation of foreigners not only prevails among us and the Hindus, but is common to all nations towards each other.
hmm, really makes you think, doesn't it, /int/

Greece, described in Nuzhat al-qulub by Hamdollah Mostowfi around the 1330s.

>A very broad and extensive province, of the Fifth and Sixth Climes. It had of old an immense population, and many sages were of this country, who cultivated diverse sciences such as mathematics, divinity, logic, the arts and crafts, philosophy, divination, history, astronomy and astrology, medicine and other such like. The greatest city here was called Macedonia, and the quality of its air promoted brilliancy in genius, sharpness in intellect, strength of memory with excellent wit and learning. Alexander the Great, with all his might of conquest, was unable at first to overcome this country, because of the wisdom of the people. However, as the land lay in a hollow, he proceeded to cut a channel to it from the Sea of the Greeks and Franks, in order that these provinces might thus be drowned in the waters. This is the place known as the Cut of Alexander. But many say that Alexander’s Cut is in those parts of the Sea of the Greeks and Franks which occupy the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth and Seventh Climes, seeing that the Cut which Alexander made is by the tomb of Hercules, being in fact the Strait of Gibraltar which leads to the Circumambient Ocean. Those learned in astronomy however place but little reliance on this attribution, and assert the Cut of Alexander to be, as aforesaid, in the first account. It is also said that when a ship passes across and reaches the province of Macedonia, by some peculiarity of its air the passengers of the ship forthwith have brought back to their recollection all that they have ever thought of and done:—but God alone knows the truth in this matter.

This reflects the Islamic belief that the qualities of a people are influenced by the air and climate of their country.

>>1765236
>>1765235
>>1765232
>>1765228
>>1765227
Chinese artisans really seem to have had a lot of fucking fun carving those camels.

>>1755666
satan plz go

>>1755905
Well done

>>1764849
that fucking Russian column tho. Spot on.

>>1764849
How can you call a Turk an apostate? They were never Christian to begin with.

>>1767136
That's actually some top quality shit, IMHO, both aesthetically and as a summary of Islamic virtues. I do wonder what would inspire an actual emperor to compose such a tribute to a foreign and far-off culture. I suppose probably boredom sitting around the palace as underlings handle any actual work for you.

>>1767703
Probably tales from Muslim traders about how Mohammad split mountains in half and purified wells by peeing in them.

>>1760517
human

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>>1767703
The Ming had a lot of Muslim support within China, due to shared hatred of Mongols. That same emperor apparently had about ten Muslim generals supporting him.

>>1767703
>>1767703
the story was that the chink muslims populace helped him during the revolutions against the mongol yuans, and after the war he ordered the construction of several mosques in china with his poem placed in the mosques. iirc he had ten muslim generals in his army.

>I suppose probably boredom sitting around the palace as underlings handle any actual work for you.

the hongwu emperor was the one that orchestrated the whole red turban rebellion while originally being a bandit and ended up being the emperors of china, i dont think he was the type who would sit around in the palace doing nothing

>>1767799
well TIL

>>1767703
Well he hated Muslims but he had muslim generals working for him.

He created a law that forced all muslims in China to wear pig leather shoes, and declared no muslim shall ride a horse in public.

During the annexation of the Yunnan province, he also castrated thousands of Muslim captives.

>>1768297
You can hate Muslims in your own country while having utmost respect for foreign Muslims.

>>1768297
seems contradictory with the poem, and the fact that he build a lot of mosques throughout china
sources?

I dont think he hated muslims at all. He had a distrust of certain ethnic minorities who happened to be muslims and he also had to keep happy the ethnic Han.

Like all great men, he was pragmatist first and foremost.

>>1764320
>That monstrous European cock

>>1764849

>Hungarian
>Customs: Disloyal
>Character: Most Gruesome
>Mind: Even less than a Pole
>Bad Habits: Traitor
>They Love: Riots
>Reigned By: Doesn't Matter
>Amusement: Doing Nothing

Oh my the salt.
What did the Hungarians do to whoever made this to piss them off?

>>1757322
poor Germs, always victims

>>1761470
>>1761447
>>1761434
>>1761462
fantastic

>>1761524
>>1761520
great pieces of art

>>1764849
>German ethnology
what a retarded table

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>>1766690
Damn he's bashing Indians like there is no tomorrow.