Is it wrong to destroy historical monuments? Commies did it,

>>1743106
Of course. But comparing the soviet states to ISIS isn't a good comparison. The post soviet states destroyed things related to communism. Isis is destroying ancient artifacts that go as far back as the Assyrians and Mesopotamian. They've destroyed Egyptian mummies as well. That places ISIS in a different league from the Soviet States.

But yes it's obvious that destroying historical monuments is horribly wrong.

Depends. Most soviet monuments are worthless mass produced garbage.
Lenin statues are copy paste junk. And you can actually find them still in random places because of how numerous they were.

>>1743134
>>1743139
I like what they did in Hungary, and just pile them all up just outside Budapest and make it a tourist attraction.

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>>1743240
Everything becomes so much easier when you don't have a sizable Russian minority to drag down your economy and riot whenever you try to remove Lenin statues.

>>1743312
Indeed, it's the Russians that are dragging them down, not their own ineptness and corruption of galactic proportions.

Everything you have was built under the supervision of the Russian Empire and the reason why they're"dragging" you down is because you refuse to make Russian as one of your official language, even though one third of your population is in fact, Russian.

>>1743671
>you should make a foriegn language your offical language just because foreigners speak it
Wat

>>1743106
Depends on what the monument is about. If is commie then tear it down. It's hundreds if not thousands of years old and actually has meaning then keep it. It might also be justified if say your building a road or hospital in place of the monument.

>>1743684
Cretin, they're not foreigners, they're forming one third of your population.

>>1743695
But that's just a minority.

>>1743695
I'm not Bulgarian but if Russians are in Bulgaria and not Russia, then they are foreigners

>>1743699
>One third of the population, minority.

>>1743703
Understandable if we're talking of a minority, not one third of the Estonian nation.

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>>1743106
Why wouldn't you post the gif?

>>1743773
based

>>1743695
You yourself posted >>1743312 which clearly indicates that Russians are not spread out and live in certain areas. It's absolutely ludicrous to make Russian an official language when it is only spoken in specific parts. At best a regional status.

Look, I know you're a massive slavboo and thus you have to hate Finno-Ugrics with all of your energy because (??). But don't try to mask your hatred as something "rational".

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>>1743671
I am not a balt.
And the Balts did quite well before Soviet (Russian) rule really.

>>1743695
They are Illegal Immigrants colonists imported during Soviet occupation, why should an independent nation state bow to those?

>>1743786
Russian Autonomous Republic when?

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>>1743837
Estonia is too rich for their Russians to want to break off. They know what the alternative is and it isn't good.

>>1743853
Unless this is a logarithmic scale, the Baltics only seem to be marginally better off than Russia

>>1743873
Well, there's a lot of other advantages to it, like Freedom of Press , less Corruption, better medium wages and free movement through the EU.

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>>1743786
I haven't posted that map and I don't "hate" the Asiatics, I just find hypocritical that they speak of oppression even though they're voluntarily deploying it when it suit them.

>But don't try to mask your hatred as something "rational"

You're defending the trampling of basic rights and I'm the hateful one,

>It's absolutely ludicrous to make Russian an official language when it is only spoken in specific parts

I repeat, the Russian form a third of their population, they're not a minority to be tossed around under the excuse of negligible numbers.

> I know you're a massive

Knows Slavic history, is immediately branded as a "fanatic", where you from, If I may ask?

>>1743819
>They are Illegal Immigrants colonists imported during Soviet occupation, why should an independent nation state bow to those?

How are they illegal if they've been there since the creation of your modern government and if you were truly "independent", then you wouldn't have the need to accommodate so many NATO bases.

>>1743753
25% is a minority. See >>1744090

>>1744090
a quarter is not a third

>>1744096
>>1744099

I've meant a third in comparison to the ethnic Estonians, I should've been more specific and having 326.325 inhabitants in a country where the majority is beneath a million doesn't make you a minority, but the second most largest ethnicity in the country.

>>1744090
>I repeat, the Russian form a third of their population, they're not a minority to be tossed around under the excuse of negligible numbers.
They are a minority where a large percentage lacks Citizenship.

>How are they illegal if they've been there since the creation of your modern government and if you were truly "independent", then you wouldn't have the need to accommodate so many NATO bases.
What makes you think I am a balt? I am a Swede for all it matters.
The government is a continuation of the pre-Russian invasion one, so technically it's older than the Russians in question.

About Nato I don't see how that makes them not truly independent. The pact is a defensive one against foreign aggression, something history has proven is quite valuable in their specific location. And besides, it's not like they will all of a sudden have NATO tanks invade their capitals due to radical change of politics.

>>1743106
First of all you must distinguish between symbols of oppression and actual worthy monuments.

Obvious symbols of oppression like those mass produced Lenins, Stalins and Hitlers should be freely sold or destroyed. While the artifacts worth preserving should be hid inside museums where their propagandist element would be neutralized.

Of course terms "symbol of oppression" and "artifact worth preserving" are subjective and their definition is political one. Interesting discussion about such definitions is for example the question of reconstruction of Marian Column in Prague.

>>1744090
>I repeat, the Russian form a third of their population, they're not a minority to be tossed around under the excuse of negligible numbers.
Just be glad orphans of Russian empire did not received the same treatment as did orphans of German empire in Poland and Czechoslovakia.

>>1744292
>They are a minority where a large percentage lacks Citizenship.

Because the Estonian government simply refuses to grant them citizenship, even though they've been living there their entire lives.

>The government is a continuation of the pre-Russian invasion one, so technically it's older than the Russians in question.

That is still not a excuse for massive infringement of human rights.

> I don't see how that makes them not truly independent

In a sense that they wouldn't be treating a good portion of their population in the way they do if it wasn't for external assurance that nothing bad would come of it.

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>>1744526
>Orphans of the German Empire
>Czechoslovakia

Might want to check your map there, bud.

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>>1744567
German Empires, if you want to be silly nitpicker

>>1744583
>implying that children of the meme reich weren't rape-babies
>implying that Czechoslovakia was ever part of the meme reich for a significant amount of time
>implying based Austria-Hungary is a 'German Empire'

t. Bavarian Corporal

>>1743139
This. Removing the statue of lee however was cowardice.

>>1744554
>Because the Estonian government simply refuses to grant them citizenship, even though they've been living there their entire lives.
Which don't matter because they entered the country during foreign occupation and besides, they have been offered citizenship granted they learn to speak the local languages properly as well as understand the constitution and some of the local history. Not that much to ask for, is it?

>That is still not a excuse for massive infringement of human rights.
What Human rights?
How do they infringe Human rights? As in apart from not giving them free citizenship.

>In a sense that they wouldn't be treating a good portion of their population in the way they do if it wasn't for external assurance that nothing bad would come of it.
That makes them dependent, not non-independent. They have to rely on US protection to act independently.

>>1744554
So you're saying former Soviet states should treat Russian minorities with special privileges or else Uncle Ivan comes knocking?

There's literally nothing wrong with destroying communist monuments.

>>1744616
>implying that children of the meme reich weren't rape-babies
That's correct implication. If you've meant Germans living on Czech borderlands. These people are result of Czech kings inviting foreigners to settle the shitty parts of country.

>implying that Czechoslovakia was ever part of the meme reich for a significant amount of time
not really, I just didn't put enough through into it since it was irrelevant to point I was making

>implying based Austria-Hungary is a 'German Empire'
Yea, sorry I forgot how important role Hungarians and Czechs played in its government

>>1744667
The Germans living in the Sudatenland were Austrian by the 20th century. They had no connection to Germany other than through language.

>>1744640
I'm saying they should treat them as equals, instead of taking out their pent-up provincial anger on them.

>Which don't matter because they entered the country during foreign occupation and besides, they have been offered citizenship granted they learn to speak the local languages properly as well as understand the constitution and some of the local history.

True, but they didn't provide them with educational facilities that could help them achieve that, they've only demanded from them to adapt, and that's basically it.The Estonian teachers refuse to speak Russian and in return, Russians won't speak Estonian because no one wants to establish communication.

>How do they infringe Human rights? As in apart from not giving them free citizenship

Because they're doing all they can to hinder their integration into Estonian society?As I've said before, they refuse to open Estonian/Russian language schools, that is basically a clear indication that they want them gone, even though most of them want to live in Estonia and adapt to it's society.

>>1743134
ISIS is worse than Russia because......
>insert subjective reasoning
xD

>>1744795
Shouldn't the Russians have learned the local tongues when immigrating though?
That's all i got to say for now since i am tired.

>>1744828
>le 'i am a retard' post

gtfo shitposter

>>1743773
I love how the head flies off

>>1743106
Most of those soviet monuments are just mass produced crap anyways, they put up basically the same Lenin statue a million time. So usually nothing of value was lost.

>>1743773
It's like the fall of the Soviet Union is condemning Lenin to the gallows of history, it's pure pottery

>>1744795
Don't the Estonian government require 60% of the education to be in Estonian?
Why doesn't that work for the Russians?

>>1743240
I just looked that up, cool as fuck idea

>>1746247
Because they need a large, distinctly Russian population in Estonia to justify their eventual invasion. If they actually integrate, they'll need to find a different excuse to free Estonia from their sovereignty.

This is also why balts fucking hate their Russian populations. They're ALWAYS a fifth column.

>>1746275
I don't think Balts hate all their Russians, just the ones arriving under Baltic occupation.

>>1746322
Maybe pre-crimea that was the case. Now? Genocide the moment they think they can get away with it.

>>1743106
I suppose it's subjective and depends on the monument in question, but I'd prefer that they remain in-tact. If they have a negative historical connotation, you can move them out of the direct public eye, but they should be put in a museum/gallery somewhere.

What drives religious iconoclasms the most is the innate desire to get rid of artifacts that might bring about curses or bad fortune despite being contradictory to the notions that such artifacts hold no super natural power and that only God has any power.

>>1744554
>Because the Estonian government simply refuses to grant them citizenship, even though they've been living there their entire lives.


You're so fucking retarded and your slav nationalism is out of this planet you basically said whatever Russians gobble up.

I'm not even Estonian, but you're a fucking retard. Their government isn't holding citizenship and purposely not giving them it. In order to get citizenship you have to pass a simple constitution test and and a language test. Why should they give them citizenship if they don't respect/value their laws, constitution or their language? They're living in Estonia if they want full citizen rights then respect their culture/history/language. No one is holding them hostages they can pack their shit and leave to Russia in fact Putin like five years ago or so introduced a programme for Russians to return to Russia and even offered them free apartments. Guess what? Almost no one went back, they just like bite hand which is feeding them and those Russians know it very well that they have better living conditions in there.

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Getting angry on social media about ISIS destroying antiquities is just a form of virtue signalling.

>>1746450
but being upset privately is definitely appropriate.
Just because people post shit like that to signal how 'cultured' they are doesn't mean that it isn't a significant cultural loss.

>>1746450
Getting angry on 4chan about social media virtue signaling is just a form of a virtue signaling.

>>1746465
> significant cultural loss
Destroyed monuments are just some kind of buddhist or other primitive babylonian junk, only work of white people of christianity really matter from cultural point.

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>>1746478
Ok friendo, if you say so

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>>1746478
While this may be be bait it's actually true. Most of us would never visit those places in our lives and the pagan and Christian monuments we actually do visit are still standing safely. The historical loss is also minimized as we got most of this saved up as blueprints and stuff already. The only ones really losing on it are travelers ((A tiny minority)) and the people of the MENA getting their heritage destroyed.

>>1743106
>Is it wrong to destroy historical monuments?

Yes, it is. Wish my ex-soviet state kept our soviet monuments.
I do however support renaming cities like Leningrad and Stalingrad (of which there were many) back to their original names, as well as renaming streets away from communist party members if they weren't worthy and only got it because of the ideology.

>>1743106
Chinese history is nothing but destroying old shit so nobody knows you can think or live differently than under the current ruler.

>>1746504
Do you think your state should have kept them or just moved them away.

>>1746509
>Chinese history is nothing but destroying old shit so nobody knows you can think or live differently than under the current ruler.

Nope.jpg.

Qin Shi Huangdi is pretty much famous for doing that, and it stopped with him.

Most of the time, Chinese history is about successive dynasties calling the previous dynasty "yes they were great, but they lost the mandate of heaven and so we're here." You did it to the memory of their last few rulers, usually, but not to their achievements.

Some dynasties were exempt to slut-shaming though, namely the Han and T'ang Dynasties. In Chinese Imperial social memory you don't shame the names of those 2 dynasties. Everything else is free game.

>>1746433

True, but they didn't provide them with educational facilities that could help them achieve that, they've only demanded from them to adapt, and that's basically it.The Estonian teachers refuse to speak Russian and in return, Russians won't speak Estonian because no one wants to establish communication, I've said this before but for some reason, you've avoided that part of my argument.

And is "Slav nationalism" a new buzzword?I keep seeing it being unironically used on many forums that deal in history.

>>1746275
How are they sovereign if their sovereignty solely depends on NATO presence?

>>1746985
>but they didn't provide them with educational facilities that could help them achieve that, they've only demanded from them to adapt

It is always the immigrants responsibility to adapt, not the other way around

>How are they sovereign if their sovereignty solely depends on NATO presence?

Their sovereignty does not depend on NATO but it is however guaranteed by NATO

>>1746985
ANy Sources I may take part off?
Because whenever I ask Estonians about it it is that the Russians just don't want to learn even though the Estonians are doing what they can to give them a chance.

>>1746985
>And is "Slav nationalism" a new buzzword?I keep seeing it being unironically used on many forums that deal in history.

You mean fucking Panslavism? New?

>>1747196
>>1747344

When Estonia emerged from the Soviet Union’s wreckage in 1991, the new country relegated much of its Slavic ethnic minority population (35% at the time) to non-citizen status unless they passed an examination in the Estonian language. Estonia’s Russian-speaking minority population finds the requirement problematic for several reasons. During the Soviet era, Russian was the official language in Estonia, it was the native language among 35% of the country’s population in 1989 and is still a major language today – 65% of Estonians speak it. Estonian on the other hand had limited presence in the republic between 1940 and 1991, though it was taught in some primary schools.

Linguistic discrimination in Estonia has roots in recent history. After the Soviet system’s collapse, some of the most attractive property in Estonia ended up in the hands of the former local ruling elites – the Russians. To prevent the concentration of power in their hands, Estonians passed laws denying Russians the right to own large amounts of property and removing them from positions of power. The non-citizen status was born from a clash of old power, accustomed to control and privilege, and new power, keen on getting their own country back. The Russian language has consequently been regarded as foreign since 1991.

They're not immigrants, but they're being as if they were, it's historically motivated revenge.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/EUR51/002/2006/en/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_alien%27s_passport
http://tbinternet.ohchr.org/Treaties/CCPR/Shared%20Documents/EST/INT_CCPR_NGO_EST_99_8742_E.pdf

>>1747461
Pan-Slavism is only vilified because it ushered the end of the Old World Order in Europe and unlike Pan-Turanism, it's doctrine is based on traceable information and it only promotes Slavic unity and the freedom of Slavic people, it doesn't involve dominion over non-Slavs whatsoever.

Also, Panslavism isn't the same as "Slavic nationalism".

>>1747466
Is there anything about Estonians doing doing little to nothing to give their Russian minority a good chance to learn Estonian in there or?

And saying they are immigrants is wrong, yes, foreign colonialists is better.

>>1743106
Nothing wrong with destroying commie monuments

>>1747466
Estonian Russians are about as fucking native and liked as European Jews are loved in Palestine.

>>1743106
Commie monuments should be destroyed and traitorous leftist parasites should be thrown off helicopters

>>1747466
Kinda unrelated question but, do you support the support the Russian government's policies in Estonia of russification and oppression of the Estonian language or do you think that was at least as bad as what's happening in Estonia right now?

>>1747488
They've claimed to, but evidence beg to differ.
>>1747502
And that means they should be treated like second class citizens?
>>1747537
I don't, but that doesn't mean that Estonia should have the right to continue with what she's doing.

>>1747466
if they dont like it, they can fuck off back to russia.

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>>1747675


>And that means they should be treated like second class citizens?

No, it means that Russians should adopt the Estonian language and culture just like the Estonians did when they were part of the soviet union

>>1747466
How is any of this Estonia fault, the blame lies on Russia

>forcefully deport thousands of Estonians
>install a foreign ruling class
>neglect the native language
>refuse to pay any reparations whatsoever
>throws a fit when Estonia tries to remain homogeneous

>>1743106

When the Soviets litter every settlement with their crappy statues, I believe you are justified in removing them.

>>1743753
>less than 50%, not being minority.

Nigga that's basic fucking maths

>>1747914
How are they supposed to learn the Estonian language if Estonian teachers refuse to communicate with them on a mutually familiar language?

Don't get me wrong, I believe that they should adopt the Estonian language, but I also believe that the Estonians should initiate the process of naturalization and stop antagonizing people who've had nothing to do with the Soviet occupation.

>>1743106
To you it's exotic art but to us it's mass produced garbage cluttering up all the public spaces, leaving no room for monuments of our own. I guess the right approach would be to sell it all to you but a lot of these demolitions happen in times of political upheaval when people feel like they can either demolish it now (and send a political message to go along with that) or it'll stay put forever once enough commies weasel their way back to power.

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>>1748048
>Estonians should initiate the process

You have said this many times but i don't understand what you mean by it

Should Estonia pay/force Russians to attend school?

Should Estonia force every teacher to learn Russian?

Should Russians be relocated to Estonian areas so that they are forced to interact with Estonians?

>>1748048
>immigrate to different country
>whine that people dont speak my language
literally paki tier, then again, russians are niggers too

>>1743773
Glorious.

>>1747505
>Commie monuments should be destroyed
yes
>>1747505
>traitorous leftist parasites should be thrown off helicopters
autism

>>1746985
I love that you don't actually understand what sovereignty is.

>>1743773
pottery...
[spoiler]fuck off to tumblr though[/spoiler]

>>1748094
No, they should just open the schools and hire teachers who'd be persistent in giving lessons on Estonian/Russian.

>>1748229
Did you even read my comment which explained their peculiar situation and no, they didn't emigrate there, at least not during the country's finding.

>>1743240
>I like what they did in Hungary, and just pile them all up just outside Budapest and make it a tourist attraction.
That's actually a good Idea

>Capcha:Crematorium

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ITT: retarded and uneducated germanboos and ignorant communist pigs

Fuck you socialist niggers. Stop shitting up this board.

>>1750846
>germanboos
Where?

>>1747466
>Russians come in and rob, kill, deport and ethnocide Estonians
>Estonians manage to gain freedom and throw the robbers, murderers and imperialists out of positions of power so they wouldn't be destroyed as a nation like Ukraine is getting it now

>oy vey those inhumane Estonians
Fuck off, Dima.

>>1750841
>>1743240
>remove monuments of murder and oppression
>use communist relics in the name of capitalism
>have a reminder laying around as to why the Russians are such horrid pieces of shit and should never be trusted

It's perfect, really.

>>1750834
>No, they should just open the schools and hire teachers who'd be persistent in giving lessons on Estonian/Russian.

No one is stopping them from going into Estonian schools, they chose not to.

There's a huge Soviet soldier monument in the center of Sofia and there's a big debate over dismantling it. I used to be in favor but one of our biggest problems is we "restart" from scratch every 50 years or so. We can't pretend history didn't happen. Keep it as a reminder to never let your country be cucked by anyone again

>>1750883
And by not going to Estonian schools while they live in Estonia they signficantly lower their job prospects and limit their prospects in other spheres by not learning Estonian. They could easily go to Estonian schools and if their parents want them to speak Russian too they can always talk in Russia in their family and there's such thing as Sunday schools like for example Lithuanian immigrant kids in Ireland go to Irish schools and on weekend they go to Sunday school to learn in Lithuanian. Russians just want to be parasites and get everything handed to them without even putting any effort to it.

>>1750902
>Lithuanian immigrant kids in Ireland go to Irish schools and on weekend they go to Sunday school to learn in Lithuanian
Except I was a lithuanian kid who went to ireland and never went to one of these sunday schools, only the public Irish school. I intergrated just fine. Literally every other Lithuanian kid I knew did so too. The Russians aren't integrating because they don't want to. They're still stuck in their soviet imperialist mindset of being the center of the universe.

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Lenin still lives in the DPR.

>>1750934
>Except I was a lithuanian kid who went to ireland and never went to one of these sunday schools,

Well your parents chose not to, it's up for each individual to decide as I said. What I'm trying to say Estonians shouldn't finance and specifically make schools for Russians as Svetovid suggested, it's your duty as an immigrant to learn the language of the host country you went to and assimilate not the other way around.

>baww the Baltics oppress us they hate us and treat us as non-citizens
>why don't you go back to Russia where you will live as a regular citizen then?
>*silence*

being treated as a non-citizen (read: third-rate citizen) in the baltics is better than being a regular citizen in russia lmao

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>>1743837
They're workin' on it

>>1750993
Rather sure they got to have their economy stop relying on oil before they try anything.

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>>1743671

>Indeed, it's the Russians that are dragging them down, not their own ineptness and corruption of galactic proportions.

Yeah, the Baltic countries are certainly doing way worse than they did under Soviet times or before.

>Everything you have was built under the supervision of the Russian Empire

Well, everything before the revolution obviously. Which makes sense when you consider that the Russians owned them in the centuries before.

PS., giving Baltic German nobility (the people who actually ruled these areas and built shit and were more important to the Empire than it was to them) preferential treatment to oppress the natives obviously isn't going to be viewed positively by them now.

>the reason why they're"dragging" you down is because you refuse to make Russian as one of your official language, even though one third of your population is in fact, Russian.

>colonists forced upon you a few decades ago to keep you docile should be given special preferences, instead of being glad they haven't been deported yet
>if Russian was made an official language they'd suddenly stop being impoverished, ultranationalist degenerates

Reminder that Crimea could only become part of Russia now because of Stalin's populations swaps. Letting Russians squat and exist as citizens so that they dominate border regions with Russia is begging for trouble.

>>1751038
Not because Khrushchev?

>>1751041

Stalin was the main reason. Around 1900 Russians formed around 33% of the population. Soviet famines and collectivisation hit Crimean Tartars, the largest group, the hardest. The WWII deportations pretty much exterminated them from the area. Which meant that Russians formed 60+% of the population in the decades after.

The Russian share of the population has actually gone down a bit in the last decade or two because the Tartars were finally allowed to resettle after the Soviet Union broke down.

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>>1743106

The post soviet states had every right to remove the remnants of the alien jewish regime that subjucated them. There is huge difference from durkas durkas blowing up 4000 year old artifacts because muh idols.

>>1751097
Categorically false, the collectivization hit the Ukrainians the hardest, because they were mainly farmers and landowners, the Crimean Tatars( who aren't even native to the region) were depopulated by other methods.

>>1751020

>if Russian was made an official language they'd suddenly stop being impoverished

They certainly would, because they'd find employment and start adapting to Estonian society.

> ultra nationalist degenerates
Estonians are doing all they can to force them out and are ignoring the EU and amnesty international, but yeah, Russians are ultra nationalists.

>>1750954
There is no "silence", the've lived there their entire lives, they can't just abandon it because someone suffers from a widespread prosecution syndrome.

>>1750947
Imbecile, I've merely said that they should hire Estonian teachers who speak Russian to give lessons in Estonian, the problem is that no one wants to.As long as they're treated as enemies, they'll refuse to assimilate.

>>1751220
they will never assimilate you retard. they dont even have the slightest inclination to do so. when our government made proposals to increase the studying hours of the native language and having them to do an exam they chimped out and started yelling how they're oppressed.

>>1751220
>First word in a response is an insult

How mature you Slavic ape.