this topic relates to both blacks in america and middle eastern

>>1725973
>What answer do modern, progressive liberals have for this other than acting against your self interest and hoping that in effect the other group will in enough time show you mercy and suffering until that time comes?
I'm a modern, progressive liberal and I don't think we should give up tribalism, I don't even think it is possible for a human to give up tribalism.

>>1725995
that is in effect what is being called for when people call for no borders and say that people who call themselves refugees and want to live in a country should be provided for simply because htey are human beings.

If you don't agree with either of these things then you aren't what I'm referring to.
I'm talking about the kind of progressive lefties you find on college and university campuses and who write for huffington post, salon, guardian comment is free, the guardian, slate, vox, etc.

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It is also in someone's self-interest to hire a black guy for lower wages instead of an equally qualified white guy despite the klan encouraging him not to. So there is an internal prisoner's dilemma among the dominant race.

There is much to be said for Ayn Rand's brand of uncompromising individualism. The collectivists imagine a utopia where everyone cooperates, but in reality you get a situation where ordinary people are spooked into choosing "cooperate" while the leadership secretly chooses "defect" and covers it up. If everyone chose "defect" by default then any group that forms would have to be transparent and prove they are choosing "cooperate", vastly reducing corruption and ironically fostering better and more cooperation.

>>1726035
your scenario is one that is of relevence to employers but not most of a particular race's population.

Besides which there are many factors to optimise to an equalibirium when choosing employees such as how much your customers will ike being served by that person, how qualified they are, what pay they'll accept , your internal preferences.

besides which , it's not as though tribalism is an all or nothing thing, that would be saying that because something is not the best it could possibly be it can't be considered good at all.

it's perfectly possible to employ and work alongside some black people while being aware that his group of people on average distrusts and resents and hates you and your people and so feeling similarly towards them.

>>1726004
>that is in effect what is being called for when people call for no borders and say that people who call themselves refugees and want to live in a country should be provided for simply because htey are human beings.
No it isn't. I don't understand how you're making this leap.

>>1726035
Not if the Klan boycotts them or otherwise intentionally incurs economic damage.

>>1726099
Calling for no borders and saying that people who call themselves refugees and want to live in a country should be provided for simply because they are human beings directly challenges tribalism because it challenges the notion that a country should priotise the interests and welfare of its own citizens.

To these people , the welfare of one of their own country men means absolutely the same as or possibly even less than that of someone who is part of a totally different group and considers themselves so, such that the hundreds of european citizens who have been raped by migrants who would not have been otherwise and thousands of victims of migrant crime are not of concern to them.

>>1725973
The idea of us v them is to some degree natural, but I think the exacerbated situation we have today is due to inequities in our system. People devolve into herd mentalities more when their livelihoods/standards of living/etc. are threatened. People (all kinds) are frustrated with things like insecure jobs, falling wages, etc. all the way up to war in their countries, lack of infrastructure, w/e. I think you`re right, tribalism begets tribalism most of the time. I think there are processes that encourage this loop, and there are processes that discourage it.

>>1726053
That is just one example, I am sure you can think of others like choosing a qt black gf over obese trailer trash.

If your patrons do not like being served by a black waiter the buck passes to them so to speak, due to their prejudice they get a shitty waiter and higher prices. You might argue there is a moral duty to hire a black waiter to help fight racism, this is true, it would be in your self-interest to exorcise this spook from society. Though again as I explained earlier in order for this group effort to work you need individualism.

>and so feeling similarly towards them
How would this benefit you? Distracting emotions interfere with your reasoning.

In all things and in every situation, irrational foibles are a disadvantage while being übermensch is an advantage.

>>1726112
Of course, you are not all powerful. You may not have the means, but tribalism doesn't have to be your goal. It is in your self-interest to skirt the rules where you can and resist it where the gains exceed the costs.

>>1726119
>Calling for no borders
Only anarchists do that seriously, in general "no borders" is simple an expression of solidarity and not a literal call to abolish borders.

>challenges the notion that a country should priotise the interests and welfare of its own citizens.
You can prioritise your own citizens while helping non-citizens, likewise citizenship isn't the sole criterion for what is a "tribe" people for tribes based on various criteria, politics, sexuality, religion, etc. etc. etc.

>To these people , the welfare of one of their own country men means absolutely the same as or possibly even less than that of someone who is part of a totally different group and considers themselves so, such that the hundreds of european citizens who have been raped by migrants who would not have been otherwise and thousands of victims of migrant crime are not of concern to them.
You're inventing positions for your opponents to hold again.