Every major accomplishment of Human history has been due to Statism.

No shit, Sherlock.

>>1712723
Yeah obviously

>>1712723
>I have an overly simplistic view of history

>>1712723
So you're a socialist?

>>1712723
individuals working together did those things, some in freedom,some in involuntariness, but the state is a made up entity, a non real thing

>>1713385
A state is a thing.

>>1713393
>The state is a thing
The show me it, show me something that's not just a collection of individuals in a building/s

>>1713431
Show me that individuals exist and not just a group of cells

>>1713431
States, or governments, are real agreements people make. Not everyone has to agree in order for power to be exercised, obviously.

I am not confident that goverment we would call a state today was involved in domestication or agriculture development, at least in the beginnng.

We have very little evidence of how it actually began. The places where it was first achieved are probably hundreds of feet underwater now.

Also, it is impossible to lay the concept of government at the feet of government itself, and since this seems to be that human achievement you most admire, it would seem your thesis is, at best, incomplete.

>>1712723
anarkiddies btfo

>>1712723
>tfw he lives in post-national state era of globalization and still believes the communist state myth from the 1850

>>1712723
>Libertarianism
They're not anit-government/state, they just want it on a leash

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>>1712723

>the state

>>1712723
Are you telling me that people who vast resources who wouldn't need to give them up to a "state" through "taxation" couldn't use those raw resources to do any of those things?

Furthermore, what makes any of those things of any value? The person with the resources will use them to create something of value to them. The pyramids mean jack shit to us except someone built them a long time ago and that was cool, but we don't look to them and say "wow, and it was all thanks to having a centralized state," we look at them and say "wow, egypt had the MANPOWER and RESOURCES to create this." Any megalomaniac with the resources could do the same no matter where or when, state or no state.

>>1713561
>property existing without a state
If you're going to just use force to defend your property you might as well set up a state while you're at it.

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>>1713440
This guy gets it

>>1713571
>Cavemen sit in cave
>hostile caveman enters
>one kills him, the others don't interact
>call this cave and its inhabitants "a state" because we feel like it

There's no reason to classify a bunch of people who happen to live in the same area a state. Are bohemian enclaves "states" then too?

For the record, I'm not an anarchist.

>>1713583
>cavemen building the pyramids

>>1713561

>Are you telling me that people who vast resources who wouldn't need to give them up to a "state" through "taxation" couldn't use those raw resources to do any of those things?

They could, but no matter how rich a given person is within some state, the state can always acquire more resources than that person by taxing him. Hence, taxation opens up the door to bigger projects than any one person no matter how wealthy could afford.

Furthermore, there is merit in handing resources over to people who cannot use them merely for their own personal benefit (if they can, the state is corrupt and useless).

>>1713497
Bullshit. Also, they have this knack for allying themslves with every fringe movement that comes along which makes me question whether or not they're really a cult/terrorist group waiting to happen.

>>1713590
But the state doesn't only focus on that one area. The sum total of those collected resources go to many different sectors, with very little focus on the individual parts other than the fact that they exist.

The lack of allocation of resources to NASA and its private competition, SpaceX, will either validate the need for government allocating resources on its own or whether it gets in the way in the end.

>>1712723
Every major disaster of Human history has been due to Statism.

>>1713662
Name one place where anarchy works

>>1712723
Did permission have a cap on top like in this pic?

What was it made of

>>1712723

define accomplishment

How are the pyramids an accomplishment? Why are building universities, writing laws, putting people in space, etc. accomplishments?

also
>the state discovered America
I didn't know prehistoric Asian hunter-gatherers had a state

>>1714093
>Asian

le meme xDDDDDDDDD

where exactly is the demarcation between people organizing each other and the state anyway? what do anarchists even mean by the state? isn't a state the natural conclusion of any sort of human organization at least bigger than a small tribe?

>>1714245
They came from Asia, so Asian

>>1712723
>Capitalism itself exists thanks to the State maintaining the Rule of Law
HA HA HA HA HA!

Capitalism is rich smart people ripping off dumb poor people.

It's pure greed and reptilian brain activity.

Fuck your neighbor and take his money.

That's it. Basic pre-caveman animal bullshit.

Grow the fuck up Polly Prissypants.

>>1712723
Right, this is why I can never get on board with full communism

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>>1714810
forgot pic

>>1712723
>has been

But capitalism is literally destroying out planet right now.


Is statism gonna fix that too?

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>>1713440
fug

>>1712723
>Communism, [...] and all other variants that seek to do away with the State
What the fuck are you on about?

Communism is a prime example of Statism.

>the statist view of writing

it's popular for people to think that literacy is and always has been a completely controlled enterprise, and to an extent that's true, but you're being a shit historian and tbhh shit thinker if you dont know that literacy is a function of both reception and production, that is reading and writing, and develops in unpredictable ways outside the control of the state.

>>1713669
It doesn't need to work it is anarchism

>>1714838
In practice, not in their purported "theory"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
>In political and social sciences, communism (from Latin communis, "common, universal") is a social, political, and economic ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of the communist society, which is a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money, and the state.

>>1712723
>There is nothing Humans cannot do when we pool our resources together.

Holocaust
Genocide
Nuclear Terror
Systemic Racism
Pogroms
Gulags

Yup, you're right. No limits whatsoever.

>>1714963
>Gulags
>A bad thing

You get rid of political enemies without killing them... it's better than a guillotine making the streets of Paris running red

Stalin confirmed for most civil leader of all time

>>1714985
>without

Not without, by. By killing them. That's what statists do. They label YOU an enemy of the state, and YOU are executed.

>>1714838
No.
Neither in theory, nor sometimes in practices.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Territory#Establishment
Once you get increasingly commie, the state would whither away, according to Marx.
Of course, i don't care what people say their system will develop like, be the author Marx, or some other commie dweeb, or whatever austrian econoautists and ancap facebook zealots.
The results are usually the same.
>>1714861
Mate, the written word, from it's inception, either developed in a country because the state needed to organize, or because religion.

>>1712723
>replicated the big bang
people actually believe this

>>1715015
>Mate, the written word, from it's inception, either developed in a country because the state needed to organize, or because religion.

and even if that were totally true (pieces of it may be), conditions change

>>1715004
>Implying individuals don't kill for arbitrary reasons

>>1715039
Individuals killing individuals is the history of mankind.

Slaughtering people by the millions is the history of statism.

>>1715035
>conditions change
And show me an example of non-meme writing developed outside of those contexts

>>1715049
>Slaughtering people by the millions is the history of statism.
>He thinks he needs a state to do mass killings, and people haven't done that on their own;

>>1714810
The state enforces the value of the fiat currency capitalists take from dumb poor people, though.

>>1712723
I mean at the very basic level there has to be some sort of an entity that enforces order, or else people cannot focus on higher pursuits not related to immediate survival.

>>1712723
>Libertarianism
>Do away with the state
Good thing libertarians don't seek to do that then only reduce the influence of the state on individuals as much as possible.

>>1714810
"Hey Bob I'll give you some of my milk if you give me some of your bread"
Capitalism it's not a zero sum game.

>>1714810
go to bed stirner

>>1714810
You're right comrade, we need to maintain equality of wealth between the workers and the entrepreneurs/investors, doing away with all forms of class distinctions so as to [COLLAPSES]

>>1712723
>Pyramids
Not an accomplishment

Nonetheless, >>1713505 says it all

>>1713431
Hi, I'm Robert

>>1715602
not an argument

>>1713440
Ups >>1715607

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>>1712723

>Libertarianism, Communism, Anarchism, AnCap and all other variants that seek to do away with the State are retarded and go against the very concept of civilization and Human nature.
>Implying civilization and the nationstate are intertwined

into the trash it goes

>>1713590
All states are corrupt. None are useless, at least not to those profiting from said corruption.

The concept of just government is just as irrational as communism. People occupy the posts in government, and people are corrupt.

This is why communism cannot work, and why just government cannot either.

/Inb4 the singularity. When people no longer are able to bully others, then there will be freedom. This requires that people do not rule others, by definition.

I, for one, will be grateful when our benevolent robot overlords take over.

>>1715049
This.

>>1712723
>go against the very concept of civilization and Human nature.

Those are some fantastic spooks you got there, statist.

>>1715219
Enforce order=slavery

>>1713440
That's not really a rebuttal. Continuing nihilism into the domain of mereological nihilism doesn't negate political nihilism. Address his first argument or shut the fuck up.

>>1715567
That's an American invention (spurred by anarcho-capitalists, actually). Libertarian is another name or what are effective anarchists everywhere else. It's distinct from anarchism in that it refers to other, non-anarchist ideologies as such as autonomism, council-communism, and situationism.

>>1715676
No.

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>>1715602
>Not an accomplishment
Nigger are you fucking serious? It was the largest structure in the world for 3,800 years. It was built entirely by free labor over 500 years before the invention of the spoked wheel and the mathematical precision of its engineering is insane.

And it wouldn't have been possible but for the primitive despotic state that arose in Egypt and allowed individual strongmen to pool (relatively) vast reserves of wealth and manpower and order public works projects such as the pyramids.

>>1715676
He showed that his argument that the state isn't real implies that nothing is real.

>>1712723
Libertarianism isn't anarchy like you think it is
Commies ended up making some pretty statist countries

Also, your last part is filled with spooks

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>>1716369
anarcho-capitalism is libertarianism taken to its logical conclusion. If your conception of government is that it is a parasite detracting from the common man, then anything less than its full eradication is ideological defeatism, the Neville Chamberlain of ideological stances. Purists will not only shun you, they'll use your ideological heterodoxy as a political weapon to drive you out of the decision making process.

This is why the French Revolution ended with a reign of blood followed by an imperial state, and why the Bolshevik Revolution ended with a totalitarian dictatorship And why Naziism lead to extermination camps. This is how it works in every ideology. Bad money has a way of driving out good money.

The final goal of the libertarian and the anarcho-Capitalist is the full privatization of society, including state functions, and the total commodification of labor. It would be a neo-feudalist state though, not a true anarchy, and it would invariably be a totalitarian dictatorship in everything but name, just like the rest.

>>1716194
I thought I've read somewhere the pyramid used mostly paid labor but payed in stupid shit like garlic or dates

>>1713431
I hate modern education so much.

>>1712723
But at what point has the state begun overreaching?

When they encroach upon your bedroom?

When they limit your ability to obtain a certain substance under the guise that it is a "gateway drug"?

>>1716457
which probably speaks more to the primitive nature of their barter economy than it does to any malicious intent on behalf of the Despot.

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>>1713440
Individuals are capable of acting, states are not unless they "act" through individuals.

You tried tho.

>come to this thread to read an interesting discussion on the state
>it turns into a commie-wank instead

fuck this board so much

>>1717411
Individuals cannot act unless acting through cells

>>1715676
>show me the state is a thing

It exists as a concept, as do individuals.

Shut the fuck up if you could not understand a simple implication.

>>1716511
You are looking for simple answers where there are none. Government, nay civilization itself, is a constantly adapting, theorizing and testing entity. No question can be settled forever because context is always changing. These are questions that every society must continually debate amongst themselves until the end of time.

The problem with anarchists and libertarian types is that they don't get that humans are a species that live in groups to survive. Any group needs rules that govern interactions to function and thus survive, and those rules can only exist if there is some ability to enforce them. Any population size that exceeds the ability for everyone to know everyone else personally, and thus operate using simple social pressures, must create a codified impersonal system of rules to be administered consistently. This of course necessitates an authority ,whether democratic or authoritarian, to decide upon and enforce those rules and WHOOPS! you have a government. Libertarians, Communists, and Anarchists wanting to get rid of government and states are like Ant's going without a colony or Bee's without a hive. You can't get rid of states without getting rid of humans because states whether democratic or tyrannical are an integral part of humanity.

>>1713440
That's why you leave your computer and go outside, and meet real people.

>>1714927
>>1714838
In practice they almost did it too. The Bolsheviks came close to abolish the Tsarist state. It resulted in almost total chaos.

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>>1712723

First of all, Libertarianism needs a state regardless of what whiney neckbeards say. Capitalism itself (as you said) flourished because of the state.

I'm not going to argue with you on the fact that statism has contributed to the wellbeing of individuals.

According to most anarchists, I'm a statist simply because I believe we should be ruled.

But the reason I'm against statism is because it doesn't allow for humane interests. And by "humane", I don't mean "activism" or "charity"; what I mean by "humane", is that statism doesn't follow a natural order; it utilizes anxiety to perpetuate surplus and progress. Capitalism and statism will always be "progressive" in the sense that people always maintain an anxiety and fear of being stagnant or regressive.

I mean, look at every species of mammal on Earth. Every one of them is content with their own lives; they're content with having to go out and forage constantly for food. They're content with shitting on the grass. They have no need or desire for anything that "aids" them or makes work easier, because work isn't seen as a chore or anxiety. ONLY in the middle class can a person enjoy his/her job, because it's only the middle class who have no fear of losing their money.

Religion and political beliefs are very indicative of the kind of society and people that have those beliefs. For hundreds of years, the Romans, the Greeks, The Norse, the Japanese, and any civilization that was a feudalist civilization, had more than one god, and they were as humane as the societies that worshiped those gods; being lustful, greedy, charitable, and sometimes stupid. The monotheist gods, on the other hand, were strict, non-human, lawful and often evil; such is the religion of a statist society where the rule of law replaces the rule of honour and loyalty.

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No state has ever practiced "statism" itself. A state is merely a tool in order to achieve political goals. This is why some states went as far as destroying themselves, as they gambled to achieve something. Such historical events show that the state necessarily needs its external reference in order to form itself, usually in the form of ideals.

A state which concerns itself merely for its own preservation leads to a decaying state, as it has lost sight of its original purposes, and/or has already achieved its practical limitation (as a tool). If that is statism, then it will certainly be a terrible idea.

>>1713583
Once you get Agriculture going, it starts to happen. Because with Agiculture, you can start making a mega farm, but a mega farm can't be moved. The herd animals can be moved, but not the crops.
Its also a size thing. Instead of tribe being 15-20 people, the agriculture tribe can be 50-100 people.
Because tools is a thing, the tribe can make better tools than before.

Before that, there might be conflict because Tribes want to use the same hunting grounds, but its far smaller in scale.
Then again, I am talking to you, a Modernite.
As a Modernite, you don't understand what a city state is, or a migration tribe with agriculture.
As a modernite, you are used to fixed defended borders, and live in a state where warfare is viewed as something bad. The roots of said view comes from Enlightened Pacifism, British "Muh Price for War", etc or American/British/Euro Isolationism

Anarchists who isn't learned will do the same mistake.
Even something like Clan Island(Iceland) only existed as long as they wheren't invaded, and they where so painfully aware of that, that they converted to Christianity per council decree to avoid getting invaded.

>>1717699
>For hundreds of years, the Romans, the Greeks, The Norse, the Japanese, and any civilization that was a feudalist civilization, had more than one god, and they were as humane as the societies that worshiped those gods; being lustful, greedy, charitable, and sometimes stupid. The monotheist gods, on the other hand, were strict, non-human, lawful and often evil; such is the religion of a statist society where the rule of law replaces the rule of honour and loyalty.
Nigga, wtf are you talking about?
Those societies were more cruel than whatever christian medieval state.

>>1717624
>Any population size that exceeds the ability for everyone to know everyone else personally, and thus operate using simple social pressures, must create a codified impersonal system of rules to be administered consistently.
And then you get meme-anarchists that say "well, we just need to revert to small communities, then"

>>1717998
>Revert to tribalism
>Only reason there is no major wars is because of lack of technology
>Area runs out of tribal migration ground, suddenly: Massive war until 20-30% of the population remains

>>1718007
But atleast you wont have an evul government(For about 20 years).
Doesn't that make it all worthwhile?

>>1715607
>>1715607
Hi. I'm Robert, too.

>>1713431

there's no reason to suggest immaterial things are not real objects, especially if they play some identifiable role in structuring objective social relations, as a state does.

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>>1713669
Zomia

>>1713669

The Nile valley?

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>>1715219
I contend that enforced order perpetuates a struggle for immediate survival, and the repression of real virtue, more so than having a lack of such an enforcing entity.

The institutionalization of education, religion and law enforcement by the order-holding, bourgeois elitists certainly appears to me as being a constriction of my autonomy. It's constricting to the point that I've felt pressured to go buy a diploma, pay tithe and question nothing, and abide by laws that were only implemented to raise money for the state.

In my experience of the college system specifically, I've borrowed money from the bourgeoisie to follow a curriculum sanctioned by the bourgeois and purchase a diploma so I can get a bourgeois-approved job with a high enough return-on-investment-potential to pay the bourgeoisie back in time before interest adds up too much.

Sure, I could drop out and buy a library card or go traveling, but the flow of books is filtered to benefit the interests of a society sculpted by the bourgeois and I don't have the money, the patience or a reputably upright background enough to buy a bunch of visas.

Seems as though, instead of having the time or freedom to contemplate shit that really matters with respect to our evolution as a species, I'm relatively limited in my options: become a corporate sell-out, become a hermit, become the crazy doomsayer on the corner, become the voice of freedom and consequently have my credibility attacked and be assassinated, or i could become an hero. Under the current order-obsessive model, I don't see much wiggle room for pursuing truth to the fullness of what truth deserves.

>>1715667
>enforced order = slavery
I think this guy's got it. The western world still depends on institutionalized slavery to function; the bourgeoisie is just clever enough to hide its true motives under the guises of honor, virtue, higher learning and societal betterment.

>TL;DR I'm with >>1715667 and Marx on this one. If that, please read.

>>1718144
Please, for the love of god, read up on Zomia.
>that has historically been beyond the control of governments based in the population centers of the lowlands.
Scandinavia basically had the same shit in the Inland(i.e Telemark and killing of Priests), and the Lappland(Sami).
Its not a Anarchy, its merely a area thats so far away from natural infastructure(I.e major rivers into lakes), that empires that claim the area can't actually conveniently go there.

So I repeat: Please for the love of God, read up on Zomia.
The reason Zomia is a big deal, is that its so far away from convenient land areas, that the local city states didn't want to go there.
The local empires sent a diplomat, and asked them to occasionally send taxes.
The modern nation state can just annex it by building roads, but technically its a area of so lose borders it might lead to Nation being built over night.

>>1718285
What is your first language?

Look up Revolutionary Catalonia and the Paris Commune and tell me that "anarchism doesn't work" you dumb authoritarians.

>>1718282
>t. I am upset my parents wouldn't let me pursue an Art and Theatre major

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>>1713669
Free State of the Three Leagues.

Despite its name, a real anarchist confederation in the Swiss canton of Graubünden.

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>>1718375
They were irrelevant shitholes

>>1712723
All of those things can be achieved with Anarchism.
Anarchism does not mean anarchy, it means removal of heirarchies.

>>1718393
I've switched majors 5 times and music was my 3rd. I'm now a 5th year junior and a philosophy major. Paying for it myself.

>>1718442
Anarchy is the manifestation of Anarchism when Anarchism is practiced to success. Why propone Anarchism if the reaping of its fruit isn't the goal?

>>1712723
youve convinced me now #imWithHer

https://youtu.be/zGDisyWkIBM

>>1718375
Yeah, and you forgot the Ukrainean Free Territory.
Thing is, they worked, for 2 months(lol!) in care of Paris, and 3 years, in the case of Catalonia and Ukraine, before the regional situation clarified itself and a random neighbouring leader moped them up.

So, if your non-state can't defend itself for long before getting muched, it means anarchy doesn't work.

>>1714838
Communists believe the state should be used to redistribute private property and then abolish itself.

The Soviet Union was not an example of communism and never claimed to be.

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>>1712723
>muh pyramids
Yeah, what a great benefit to humanity it is to have some giant fucking stone pyramids, thank you pharaohs.

>replicated the Big Bang
>pic related

>"major accomplishment"
spook

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>>1717565
Cells do not act of their own accord. They react to stimuli, sure, but do not plan or act on their own.

While an individual is made up of cells, those cells are physically present and also subordinated to the individual, incapable of forming or acting out their own thoughts or designs.

States are not physical in any way, and so anything a "state" does must be done by individuals, individuals who are all independently thinking and acting, and although their actions may be coordinated it does not transmute them into anything greater than what they actually are. It's basic logic t-b-h.

>>1712723
>implying any of these things are accomplishments.

>>1718759
Therefore the value in itself, the state, is something that compels humans to act together to further goals that pertain to said value. Anarchism etc. seek to do away with this value and replace it with.. freedom? Which is essentially nothing, as it is perceived differently by every individual.

When Socialists talk about the "State" what they talk about is the heirarchical superstructure construct that maintains Capitalism.

"Communism" and "Anarchism" still have a Government who foresees organization and distribution of resources and paperwork, bureaucracy etc. The difference being is that the Government is a bottom up structure which is subject to the will of the people through the structure, the people are not subject to the will of the Politicians, Capitalists and Police.

Pic related.

Noted I don't think this is a perfect idea, largely because I've worked in Government and there are some things you learn

1: The general public are legitimately retarded and the vast majority largely only care about incredibly micro issues of self interest, mostly "Muh rates" and "Muh road quality that is 100% fine but I'm going to complain about anyway" and "Muh NIMBY shit".
Direct Democracy thus is a incredibly flawed idea and educated representative with expert advisors is a far superior system.

2: The general public fucking hate politics. 80% of people imo would be perfectly happy to live in a technocratic dictatorship if it meant they never had to see a political headline again. People can't even stand a 1 month election, imagine people trying to give a shit about almost every single political issue there is and vote on it for it to go up through the chain.

3: The vast majority of shit Government engages in, like 99% of stuff, is mundane crap like wheat ergot regulation or some other obscure shit nobody has any fucking clue about. How do you expect people to vote on all these issues? It's a full time job for a reason. Most Politicians work very long hours, 6 days a week.

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>>1720185
Sorry pic didn't upload.

>>1718369
What do you disagree with, about Zomia?

>>1720185
Technocratic direct democracy when?
It'd encourage the populace to get an education.

>>1722090
This isn't the guy you were debating, just curious where you are from because English doesn't seem to be your first language

>>1718759
>cells are subordinate to individuals

holy fuckin shit christfags are retarded

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>>1720116
I didn't say anarchism was good. Just pointing out a simple fact.

>>1725140
>implying I'm a christfag

*snk*
I'm pretty enlightened by my own intellect, kiddo. Let me know when your cells act on their own in a away that is not a fluke, ie cancer.

>>1718665
>if you're ideology isn't capable of magic and instantly destroying all of your enemies then that means it doesn't work
War doesn't decide who's right, only who's left.

>>1725163
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt of being brainwashed. I guess you're just the regular ol retard

>>1720185
Everyone is fucking retarded, that's why government is bad. Most people don't even know what's good for them and statists expect the same people to know what's good for others.
>largely only care about incredibly micro issues of self interest, mostly "Muh rates" and "Muh road quality that is 100% fine but I'm going to complain about anyway" and "Muh NIMBY shit".
That's also why government is bad, you have self-interested people forcing issues onto everyone else that no one else cares about.

>>1718010

Unironically yes.

Not the anarchy though, that sounds terrible. I'm an ecofacist so my end goal is the culling of humans.

>>1725324
Damn, you are spooked so bad that you want your death and everyone else's because of a spook that would die with you.

>>1725270
Not an argument.

>>1716457
Why would dates be stupid? Caloric as fuck