So some illiterate jew gets shish-kebab'd in the capitol

>>1671974
You forgott Saul, the guy who turned a smalltime jewish Zealot that only preached to other jews and had no interest in non-Jews into the messias and created a full synchretic religion around him with every wonder and prophesy that was popular at the time.

>>1671974
>>1671991
People where stupid enough to believe Saul, they where stupid enough to believe Muhammad, they where stupid enough to believe Joseph Smith and today they are stupid enough to believe L. Ron Hubbard.
Now you not gonna win a debatte with such idiots, they want to believe in whatever nonsense makes them happy and thats what they gonna do. The only thing you can do is make sure that they do not get to much influence on society and politics.

>>1671974
euphoric

*tips fedora*

>>1671991
>no interest in non Jews

Let me guess, the Samaritan woman is just revisions and didn't really happen right? The pagan Roman who Jesus heals his slave, just more revision to make it universal right?

Keep talking out of your ass.

>>1672028
Yes. or just added 50 years later to make it more compatible? You know, marketing reasons and such?

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>>1671974
Nobody ever proved this wrong, EVER

>>1672039
tl:dr

>>1671991
When will this stupid meme end?

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>>1671974
>illiterate
Wrong.
>buttfuck nowhere sheep-herderville
Jerusalem isn't "buttfuck nowhere sheep-herderville".
>like 7 million other nameless bastards that managed to piss off the local Roman soldiers
Wrong, none ever performed miracles and none ever had as many disciples as Christ.
>about 100 years later some jerkoff named Luke decides to write a book about it
Pic related, wrong again.
>played a century long game of telephone
Wrong, the Gospel was already being preached as far as India and there were nearly a million Christians already.
>I'm supposed to base my entire world view and decision making on that book
That "book" is a collection of 73 books. It is sacred Scripture and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (2Tim3:16-17). Sorry to break it to you kid, but morality isn't relative.
>get up every Sunday morning to worship the jew on a stick as a literal god
2 Corinthians 5:21
>and pretend to eat his flesh and drink his blood in an effort to please him
1 John 4:7-21

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Reminder that the Holy Shroud is authentic.

Keep mocking the "jew on a stick".

Christ truly rose from the dead.

You're in for a shock.

>>1672033
Claims require proof, friend.

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>>1672320
The countries with the highest atheist population have either been the victim of forms of protestantism or forms of communism.

The world will never be atheist.

Stay delusional though.

>>1672039
>Something that is purely actual, with no unrealized potentials, must be omnipotent. To not Be able to do something is to have an unrealized potential.
If it existed before/outside the universe and therefore potential, then it no unrealized potential because it had no potential at all. Meaning rather that this omnipotence would be identical to impotance.

>As the grounding of all true propositions, it would not have knowledge but rather be knowledge itself. To lack knowledge is to have unrealized potential.

okay, so ignoring my last point which is also nullifies this one. This would mean that this pure actual would have to be the universe itself, therefore being all knowledge. However being knowledge is not omniscience, omniscience would be a sentience which knew all knowledge. And there's nothing here to suggest that the universe as a whole is sentient, and plenty to suggest it isn't. Therefore this actual is not God.

>Physical substances can change location, form, ect, all of which are unrealized potentials. So something purely actual must be non-physical.
Correct, in essence it would not be physical, it would be what the physical is made of. But some of it would have to be physical, otherwise it would have unrealized potential.

>A flaw or imperfection is a potentiality, and something purely actual would not have any imperfections and so would be perfect.

To be completely perfect, this actual would also have to contain every possible perceived imperfection also, because otherwise it would have the potential have these imperfections. Therefore it could not have the agency to judge as a whole, and would only be perfect as a whole. Therefore it could not be God.

Anyone see any flaws in my reasoning?

>>1672328
No it won't, it will just becaume irreligious, like large parts of Europe already are. Christinaity just will fade out, an no major religion will replace it.

>>1672325
Well, no writings form jebus, the earliest testaments are 30-50 years after he was nailed. And of course, everything is absolutely true in them, nothing added, nothing altered, because hey, what religious person would do such a thing ;-)

>>1672328
Fedoras seem to forget that most humans have an innate longing for the metaphysical regardless of whether they call themselves religious or not, that's why so many people who share "the Friendly Athiest" memes on goybook are into crystals and Wicca and non-sense like that.

Only the truly autistic have no desire for religion.

>>1672328
I'm imagining it. And its much better.

>>1672347
Until a crisis strikes and people return to the comfort of religion

>>1672356
You need to be 18 years old or more to post here kiddo

>>1672352
Bullshit. And not an argument.

>>1672352
>Only the truly autistic have no desire for religion.
Most people in Europe never go to church. In fact, organized religion hast lost most influence on society and politics in Europe long ago, there is now a religious minority, and it gest smaller every year. And you know what, life is still great, no one misses the bigott bastards.

>>1672357
Keep telling that yourself, it is your only hope. But then, if WW2 didn't help, what will?

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>tfw atheism is linked to autism

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Feels logical actually.

>>1672359
That I am.

Shame there's no requirement to have a brain, or you'd be unwelcome.

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>>1672367
>bigott
>>>/r/eddit

>>1672372
Damn, sick comeback bro; be sure to tell your internet friends on /r/atheism all about it

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>>1672365
>mad

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>>1672358

>ITT christcucks on suicide watch
>no, it is all true, I know it sounds like every other religious scam, but this is the one true religion and I organized my whole life according to it.

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>>1672389
>there's a lot of religions in the world!
Okay.

>>1672367
Nice, they started to sell churches where I live, apparently they don't need them anymore, because no one goes to church anymore. They are currently renovating one to become a nigth club, can't wait to go there, get a drink and toast to the ones that still think that Christianity is not declining.

>>1672397
>where I live
Where?

>>1672391
There is literaly thousands of believes and creeds out there, well maybe not in Kansas.
>lovely map, giving as 50% Christfag when they are in fact 80% Atheist or non-believer.
>No no no, it just can't be
>but every year, there are fewer and fewer religious people in the western world
Deal with it, you are going down

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>>1672397
>They are currently renovating one to become a nigth club
I hope pic related happens.

>>1672402
Yurop, right in the middle

>>1672403
>they are in fact 80% Atheist or non-believer
?
>you are going down
Not me, the world.

>>1672406
Czech Republic?

>>1672397
>>1672406
Kek, and you think that the "non-religious" are just gonna be fine and not overtaken by Islam?

>>1672391
>>1672371
>>1672370
>Its that anon who posts unsolicited images from /pol/ thinking its evidence.

I especially like how the first one has cropped 'The Daily Mail' out of view.

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>>1672411
Why would one give up middle-eastern-bronze-age-fairtyle 2.0 for middle-eastern-bronze-age-fairtyle 3.0, this time just without booze and porkchops?

Seriously, you must be from the US, no one here is so hysteric about the mudslimes, sure, no one likes them, but then, most of them turn irreligous anyways and the other are an even smaller minority than the christcucks.

>Canada has irreligous majority, so does Australia.
>And the trendline is clear

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>>1672416
I don't browse /pol/.

>>1672411
Yep.

>>1672422
>Spain
>50% irreligious
I don't think so.

>>1672422
>Canada
>Australia
Because of protestantism.

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>>1672422
hmm

>>1672425
You know that image is mocking you right?

>>1672428
Yes, they are, at least to the Gallup poll. They have many churches, it is true, just no one goes there anymore. Most people have turned their backs on organized religion.

>>1672434
not being a part of an organized religion =/= irreligious my fedora friend

>>1672431
Atheism != Irreligion
If they never go to church, never believe in some organize religion, and and also vote like that, I can live with it perfectly fine that you do not call them atheists.

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>>1672432
>Persons with Developmental Disabilities Edmonton Community Board
>the sodomite flag
Nah, they're ridiculing themselves my nu-male friend.

>>1672441
Yes, I know that, and so does Gallup, but if people say they do no practize a religion, are not member of a religion and do not believe, than that makes them irreligious.
You'd know if you'd live in Europe, most people her simply do not give a shit about religion anymore, yet they still live good lifes.

>>1672431
>Lot of cropping going on there CNS.
>Its like you don't want us to know where these screencaps are coming from.

>>1672434
>Yes, they are
No they're not and even if they were it would be a reaction to the fascist regime.

As I said, what causes atheism in historically Christian societies is always either forms of protestantism and/or forms of communism (or just liberalism). Ex: France, Czech Republic, 1st Portuguese Republic, Soviet countries, Scandinavia, Germany, etc.

>>1671974
Because you can't be certain that when you die you will be in an terrible place for not listening, who knows? The rides been awful so far, why shouldn't I believe the one responsible for creation is nuts?
You can see the process of how only a story, a meme, can capture minds, making them submit.

Obviously now we're more able to find similar threats made by 'other gods', and less inclined to stay subscribed as a result.

Maybe the tale began as a metaphor, and was mostly lost in translation.

>>1672444
>Even the disabled look down on religautists.
Kek

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>>1672459
See >>1672370 >>1672371

Nice try.

>>1672453
That statistic has been confirmed by others as well; your stubborn denial puts me in the mind of zealots
>>1672449
I do live in Europe, and I can tell you that at least in my city I've seen people slowly become more religious

>>1672455
>tale began as a metaphor, and was mostly lost in translation
There is no tale and see >>1672317

Nothing has been lost.

>>1672464
>I do live in Europe, and I can tell you that at least in my city I've seen people slowly become more religious
Nice, where do you live?

>>1672454
>People turning there backs on Christianity is always caused by people turning there backs on Christianity

Wow. No shit anon.

>>1672459
>he still doesn't get that he's being mocked

Maybe the autistic link is correct after all

>>1672467
Poland

>>1672411
Yes. Even the Muslims themselves become increasingly irreligious, depending on which generation of an immigrant they are.

>>1672455
>Because you can't be certain that when you die you will be in an terrible place for not listening, who knows?
Better pray to the correct of the 2.917.511 versions of god(s) people came up with, then. Loki and Shiva won't be pleased to hear that you sinned by praying to YHWH, and maybe God even wants you to be an Atheist.
Your chances to win the gamble are close to 0.

>>1672462
I've already replied to both of them anon.

>>1672474
>Even the Muslims themselves become increasingly irreligious, depending on which generation of an immigrant they are.
Completely incorrect.

If anything, it's been found out that the sons and grandsons of migrants are more traditionalist and religious than their forefathers.

>and maybe God even wants you to be an Atheist.

That doesn't even make sense

>>1672469
>I can't read

>>1672474
See >>1672391

>>1672489
>I can't comprehend.

>>1672492
>I put words in the mouths of my opponents so I can strawman like an autist and fool myself into thinking I'm winning the argument
It's time to stop posting buddy.

>>1672481
>That doesn't even make sense
Deism.

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>>1672026
>>1672317
>>1672321
>>1672328
>>1672352

>tips mitre

>>1672497
Wasn't a strawman, it was a logical deduction of meaning.

>>1672505
>n-n-no I swear I wa-wa-was just...
ok kid

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>>1672504
What's wrong with tipping a mitre, my plebeian trilby-wearing atheist nu-male friend?

>>1672397
>>1672404
Edgy

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>>1672513
Because your beliefs are based on feels, not reals.

>>1672520
Wrong.

>>1672317
>Sorry to break it to you kid, but morality isn't relative.
Yes it is you simplistic retard.

And I can find first editions of the Book of Mormon and the Book of the Law.

>>1672506
Now that is a strawman.

>>1672491
So what? There still are a gajillion conceptions of God, even if they aren't majority positions.

>>1672481
>Completely incorrect.
Nope, fully depends on the group.
http://zfs-online.org/index.php/zfs/article/viewFile/1305/842

>That doesn't even make sense
Maybe there's a God of rationality that sees virtue in not being believed in. God isn't dependent on your faith like a crack whore.

>>1672521
What's so special about your religion? Do you have actual scientific evidence for it besides "muh degeneracy, muh tradition, billions of people can't be wrong?"

>>1672454
>No they're not and even if they were it would be a reaction to the fascist regime.
According to the Gallup poll form 2014, 20% of Spaniards identify as coonvinced atheists, and another 35% as "not a religious person"
http://www.wingia.com/web/files/richeditor/filemanager/Spain_Tables_V3_a.pdf
Table 10. And the facist regime is gone for 35 years now.

Must suck when relaity differs from your little book. Now you can pray and peach fire and brimstone and so on, but when the 2016 polls come, more people will be irreligious, less people will go to church and the influence of religion on society and politics will diminish even further. Best thing for me, I do not even have to do anything, just sit back and enjoy the show. And before long, Christianity in Europe will just be another small sect amongst many others that sell spirituality for the masses.

>>1672524
>comparing the book of mormon to the Holy Bible
bait?

https://www.cesletter.com/Letter-to-a-CES-Director.pdf

>>1672521
So do you take every insane verse bible literally or do you pick and choose from the feel good parts?

>>1672537
They have a book, and that books says that that book is universaly true.
End of scientific evidence.

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>>1672537
>Do you have actual scientific evidence
Of course I do!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZKocFGQf24
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp8AF7i9A3U

Summary of scientific and historical evidence supporting the authenticity of the Shroud:
http://www.newgeology.us/Shroud.pdf

Shroud-like coloration of linen by nanosecond laser pulses in the vacuum ultraviolet (it explains that they replicated the shroud's qualities using laser pulsations, which so far is the only way anyone has been able the replicate the shroud's qualities):
http://www.sindone.info/DILAZZA3.pdf

Studies on the radiocarbon sample from the shroud of Turin:
http://www.shroud.it/ROGERS-3.PDF

Nuclear imaging:
http://shroud.com/pdfs/whanger.pdf
http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/accett2.pdf

Raymond N. Rogers' observations and conclusions:
http://shroudnm.com/docs/2013-01-10-Yannick-Cl%C3%A9ment-Reflections-on-Ray-Rogers-Shroud-Work.pdf

Also, here's some secular peer-reviewed scientific journal articles on the Shroud of Turin:
http://shroud.typepad.com/topics/2005/10/secular_peerrev.html

>>1672545
The book of Mormon is to the Bible what the Bible is to the Tanach. Fan fiction.

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>>1672546
I'm not proddy so I know which stories are not meant to be taken as history.
>do you pick and choose from the feel good parts?
I'm also not a liberal "Christian" so I have no problem accepting every single biblical teaching including that homosexuality is in fact an abomination and that homosexuals deserve to be put to death.

>>1672553
>Shroud of Turin
Interesting enough, most scientific research indicates it is indeed a forgey from the 14th century. But Christcucks want to believe. And to do that, you gotta come up with some pseudo science.
>https://www.shroud.com/nature.htm

>>1672554
Not really since jews do not deny the existence of Christ and at the time didn't even deny His miracles, they just called Him a magician. Try again. Oh and what happened in AD 70 actually happened, as Christ prophesied.

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>>1672565
>most scientific research
Quite the contrary.

Also:

The 1988 Carbon-14 tests done at Oxford, Zurich and Arizona Labs used pieces of the same sample cut from a corner.

1. A paper published in Jan 20, 2005 in the journal Thermochimica Acta by Dr. Ray Rogers, retired Fellow with the Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory and lead chemist with the original STURP science team (the 1978 Shroud of Turin Research Project, involving approximately 35 scientists directly examining the Shroud for five days), has shown conclusively that the sample cut from The Shroud of Turin in 1988 was taken from an area of the cloth that was re-woven during the middle ages. Here are some excerpts:

"Pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry results from the sample area, coupled with microscopic and microchemical observations, prove that the radiocarbon sample was not part of the original cloth of the Shroud of Turin. The radiocarbon date was thus not valid for determining the true age of the shroud."

"As part of the Shroud of Turin research project (STURP), I took 32 adhesive-tape samples from all areas of the shroud and associated textiles in 1978." "It enabled direct chemical testing on recovered linen fibers and particulates".

"If the shroud had been produced between 1260 and 1390 AD, as indicated by the radiocarbon analyses, lignin should be easy to detect. A linen produced in 1260 AD would have retained about 37% of its vanillin in 1978…The Holland cloth, and all other medieval linens, gave the test [i.e. tested positive] for vanillin wherever lignin could be observed on growth nodes. The disappearance of all traces of vanillin from the lignin in the shroud indicates a much older age than the radiocarbon laboratories reported."

(1/2)

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>>1672565
"The fire of 1532 could not have greatly affected the vanillin content of lignin in all parts of the shroud equally. The thermal conductivity of linen is very low… therefore, the unscorched parts of the folded cloth could not have become very hot." "The cloth's center would not have heated at all in the time available. The rapid change in color from black to white at the margins of the scorches illustrates this fact." "Different amounts of vanillin would have been lost in different areas. No samples from any location on the shroud gave the vanillin test [i.e. tested positive]." "The lignin on shroud samples and on samples from the Dead Sea scrolls does not give the test [i.e. tests negative]."

"Because the shroud and other very old linens do not give the vanillin test [i.e. test negative], the cloth must be quite old." "A determination of the kinetics of vanillin loss suggests that the shroud is between 1300- and 3000- years old. Even allowing for errors in the measurements and assumptions about storage conditions, the cloth is unlikely to be as young as 840 years."

"A gum/dye/mordant [(for affixing dye)] coating is easy to observe on…radiocarbon [sample] yarns. No other part of the shroud shows such a
coating." "The radiocarbon sample had been dyed. Dyeing was probably done intentionally on pristine replacement material to match the color of the older, sepia-colored cloth." "The dye found on the radiocarbon sample was not used in Europe before about 1291 AD and was not common until more than 100 years later."

"Specifically, the color and distribution of the coating implies that repairs were made at an unknown time with foreign linen dyed to match the older original material." "The consequence of this conclusion is that the radiocarbon sample was not representative of the original cloth."

(2/3)

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>>1672565
"The combined evidence from chemical kinetics, analytical chemistry, cotton content, and pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry proves that the material from the radiocarbon area of the shroud is significantly different from that of the main cloth. The radiocarbon sample was thus not part of the original cloth and is invalid for determining the age of the shroud."

"A significant amount of charred cellulose was removed during a restoration of the shroud in 2002." "A new radiocarbon analysis should be done on the charred material retained from the 2002 restoration."

Raymond N. Rogers. 20 January 2005. Studies on the radiocarbon sample from the shroud of turin. Thermochimica Acta, Vol. 425, Issue 1-2, Pages 189-194.

2. The Fire-Model Tests of Dr. Dmitri Kouznetsov in 1994 and Drs. John Jackson and Propp in 1998, which replicated the famous Fire of 1532,
demonstrated that the fire added carbon isotopes to the linen.

Dmitri Kouznetsov, Andrey Ivanov, Pavel Veletsky. 5 January 1996. Effects of fires and biofractionation of carbon isotopes on results of radiocarbon dating of old textiles: the Shroud of Turin. Journal of Archaeological Science, Volume 23, Issue 1, Pages 109-121. doi:10.1006/jasc.1996.0009

Jackson, John P. and Propp, Keith. 1997. On the evidence that the radiocarbon date of the Turin Shroud was significantly affected by the 1532 fire. Actes du III Symposium Scientifique International du CIELT, Nice, France.

(3/3)

http://www.newgeology.us/Shroud.pdf

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>>1672565
New experiments date the Shroud of Turin to the 1st century AD. They comprise three tests; two chemical and one mechanical. The chemical tests were done with Fourier Transform Infrared Spectroscopy (FTIR) and Raman spectroscopy, examining the relationship between age and a spectral property of ancient flax textiles. The mechanical test measured several micro-mechanical characteristics of flax fibers, such as tensile strength.

The results were compared to similar tests on samples of cloth from between 3250 BC and 2000 AD whose dates are accurately known. FTIR identifies chemical bonds in a molecule by producing an infrared absorption spectrum. The spectra produce a profile of the sample, a distinctive molecular fingerprint that can be used to identify its components. Raman Spectroscopy uses the light scattered off of a sample as opposed to the light absorbed by a sample. It is a very sensitive method of identifying specific chemicals.

The tests on fibers from the Shroud of Turin produced the following dates:

FTIR = 300 BC ± 400 years; Raman spectroscopy = 200 BC ± 500 years; and multi-parametric mechanical = 400 AD ± 400 years. All the dates have a 95% certainty.

The average of all three dates is 33 BC ± 250 years (the collective uncertainty is less than the individual test uncertainties). The average date is compatible with the historic date of Jesus’ death on the cross in 30 AD, and is far older than the medieval dates obtained with the flawed Carbon-14 sample in 1988. The range of uncertainty for each test is high because the number of sample cloths used for comparison was low; 8 for FTIR, 11 for Raman, and 12 for the mechanical test.

The scientists note that “future calibrations based on a greater number of samples and coupled with ad hoc cleaning procedures could significantly improve its accuracy, though it is not easy to find ancient samples adequate for the test.”

(1/2)

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>>1672565
They used tiny fibers extracted from the Shroud by micro-analyst Giovanni Riggi di Numana, who gave them to Fanti. Riggi passed away in 2008, but he had been involved in the intensive scientific examination of the Shroud of Turin by the STURP group in 1978, and on April 21, 1988 was the man who cut from the Shroud the thin 7 x 1 cm sliver of linen that was used for carbon dating.

These tests were carried out in University of Padua laboratories by professors from various Italian universities, led by Giulio Fanti, Italian professor of mechanical and thermal measurement at the University of Padua’s engineering faculty. He co-authored reports of the findings in 1) a paper in the journal Vibrational Spectroscopy, July 2013, “Non-destructive dating of ancient flax textiles by means of vibrational spectroscopy” by Giulio Fanti, Pietro Baraldi, Roberto Basso, and Anna Tinti, Volume 67, pages 61-70; 2) a paper titled “A new cyclic-loads machine for the measurement of micro-mechanical properties of single flax fibers coming from the Turin Shroud” by Giulio Fanti and Pierandrea Malfi for the XXI AIMETA (Italian Association of Theoretical and Applied Mechanics) congress in 2013, and 3) the 2013 book “Il Mistero della Sindone” (The Mystery of the Shroud), written by Giulio Fanti and Saverio Gaeta in Italian.

(2/2)

http://www.newgeology.us/Shroud.pdf

>>1672566
>>1672571
The cool thing is, in 50 years you likely be still telling the same bullshit stories, just that there are no more than 15-20% of Christians around for your given population. And the others will do the same as I do, shrug, do the 180° and enjoy live without religion.

>>1672563
>I'm not proddy so I know which stories are not meant to be taken as history.

How do you know which ones are which? Why has the Catholic church repeadedly flip flopped on what parts are literal? Could it be that the clergy is not divine, but humans changing their religion to be more palatable to current social and scientific sensibilities? Why would the disciples make it totally unclear which parts of the bible are literal anyway?

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>>1672583
>no argument
As always. Those "stories" (history) have been told for two millenia and will be told until the end of time. Deal with it my fedora friend.

This paradigm assumes that the radiocarbonists’ claim that the Shroud of Turin is a 14th century forgery is correct. It is based on what that conclusion tells us about the forger. It tells us that:

1. The forger first painted the bloodstains before he painted the image.

2. The forger integrated forensic qualities to his image that would only be known 20th century science.

3. The forger duplicated blood flow patterns in perfect forensic agreement to blood flow from the wrists at 65° from vertical to suggest the exact crucifixion position of the arms.

4. The forger "painted" the blood flows with genuine group AB blood that he had "spiked" with excessive amounts of bilirubin since the forger knew that severe concussive scourging with a Roman flagrum would cause erythrocyte hemolysis and jaundice.

5. The forger "plotted" the scourge marks on the body of the "man in the shroud" to be consistent under forensic examination with two scourgers of varying height.

6. The forger also duplicated abrasion and compression marks on the scourge wounds of the shoulders to suggest to 20th century forensic examiners that the "man in the shroud" had carried a heavy weight following the scourging.

7. The forger, against all convention of medieval artistry, painted the body he was "hoaxing" as Jesus of Nazareth, nude to conform to genuine Roman crucifixions.

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>>1672583
8. The forger, as the forensic genius he was, illustrated the nails of crucifixion accurately through the wrists rather than the hands as in all other conventional medieval representations. He also took into account that the thumbs of a crucified victim would rotate inward as a result of median nerve damage as the nails passed through the spaces of Destot.

9. The forger was clever enough to "salt" the linen with the pollens of plants indigenous only to the environs of Jerusalem in anticipation of 20th century palynological analysis.

10. The forger was an artist who surpassed the talents of all known artists to the present day, being able to "paint" an anatomically and photographically perfect human image in a photographic negative manner, centuries before photography, and be able to do so without being able to check his work, close up, as he progressed.

11. The forger was able to paint this image with some unknown medium using an unknown technique, 30-40 feet away in order to discern the shadowy image as he continued.

12. The forger was clever enough to depict an adult with an unplaited pony-tail, sidelocks and a beard style consistent with a Jewish male of the 1st century.

13. The forger thought of such minute details as incorporating dirt from the bare feet of the "man in the shroud" consistent with the calcium carbonate soil of the environs of Jerusalem.

14. This forger was such an expert in 20th century biochemistry, medicine, forensic pathology and anatomy, botany, photography and 3-D computer analysis that he has foiled all the efforts of modern science. His unknown and historically unduplicated artistic technique surpasses all great historical artists, making the pale efforts of DaVinci, Michaelangelo, Raphael and Botticelli appear as infantile scribblings.

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>>1672588 >>1672591

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>>1672592

>>1672563
>homosexuals deserve to be put to death.
Why though? Its so silly, harsh and counterproductive.

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>>1672593

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>>1672594
Homosexuals have a sexual perversion which they need to eliminate and not feed.

Just like child molesting, homosexual sodomy is an abominable act and the individuals who partake in such acts *deserve* to be put to death.

It is the objective Law of God.

Be honest Catholics ITT, how many of you became Catholic because you dislike Islam and degeneracy? Or because you appreciate the beauty and rich tradition of the Catholic church? Or you like the social aspect and community of the church?

Because none of that stuff makes it true

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>>1672601
>he's now trying to change the subject and strawmanning
I'm just getting started fampai.

The image on the Shroud is of a man 5 feet 10 ½ inches tall, about 175 pounds, covered with scourge wounds and blood stains. Numerous surgeons and pathologists (including Dr. Frederick Zugibe (Medical Examiner - Rockland, New York), Dr. Robert Bucklin (Medical Examiner - Las Vegas, Nevada), Dr. Herman Moedder (Germany), the late Dr. Pierre Barbet (France), and Dr. David Willis (England)) have studied the match between the Words, Weapons and Wounds, and agree that the words of the New Testament regarding the Passion clearly match the wounds depicted on the Shroud, and that these wounds are consistent with the weapons used by ancient Roman soldiers in Crucifixion.

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>>1672601
>>1672604
Specifically, the scourge marks on the shoulders, back, and legs of the Man of the Shroud match the flagrum (Roman whip) which has three leather thongs, each having two lead or bone pellets (plumbatae) on the end. The lance wound in the right side matches the Roman Hasta (4cm x 1 cm spear wound). Iron nails (7" spikes) were used in the wrist area (versus the palms as commonly depicted in Medieval art). These marks, combined with the capping of thorns which is not found anywhere else in crucifixion literature of ancient Roman (Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the Elder or Pliny the Younger) or Jewish (Flavius Joesphus, Philo of Alexandria) historians create a unique signature of the historical Jesus of Nazareth.

>>1672599
So what your saying is you don't know and are talking a load of shit.

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What does any of this prove? What's so special about this piece of cloth?

The Shroud of Turin’s images are superficial and fully contained within a thin layer of starch fractions and saccharides that coats the outermost fibers of the Shroud. The color is a caramel-like substance, probably the product of an amino/carbonyl reaction. Where there is no image, the carbohydrate coating is clear. There is also a very faint image of the face on the reverse side of the Shroud of Turin which lines up with the image on the front of the cloth. There is no image content between the two superficial image layers indicating that nothing soaked through to form the image on the other side.

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>>1672610
Until recently, it was widely believed that the images on the Shroud of Turin were produced by something which resulted in oxidation, dehydration and conjugation of the polysaccharide structure of the linen fibers. This is incorrect. The coating, whether imaged or clear, can be reduced with diimide or removed with adhesive leaving clear cellulose fiber.

The images as they appear on the Shroud of Turin are said to be negative because when photographed the resulting negative is a positive image.

The Turin Shroud was examined with visible and ultraviolet spectrometry, infrared spectrometry, x-ray fluorescence spectrometry, thermography, pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry, lasermicroprobe Raman analyses, and microchemical testing. No evidence for pigments (paint, dye or stains) or artist’s media was found anywhere on the Shroud of Turin.

>>1672588
>>1672591
It is fascinating how delousional religios people become when they need proof for their religion.
>peer reviewed study says its fake
>no no no, I want to believe
Guess thats why everyone is turning their back on the church and the fundamentalists.

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In 2002, a team of experts did restoration work, such as removing the patches from 1534 and replacing the backing cloth. One of the specialists was Swiss textile historian Mechthild Flury-Lemberg. She was surprised to find a peculiar stitching pattern in the seam of one long side of the Shroud, where a three-inch wide strip of the same original fabric was sewn onto a larger segment.

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>>1672615
The stitching pattern, which she says was the work of a professional, is quite similar to the hem of a cloth found in the tombs of the Jewish fortress of Masada. The Masada cloth dates to between 40 BC and 73 AD.

This kind of stitch has never been found in Medieval Europe.

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>>1672614
Scientific evidence > Your fee fees

Address each point: >>1672588 >>1672591 and I'll take you seriously.

Pic related:

Max Frei, a Swiss police criminologist who initially obtained pollen from the shroud during the STURP investigation stated that of the 58 different types of pollens found, 45 were from the Jerusalem area, while 6 were from the eastern Middle East, with one pollen species growing exclusively in İstanbul, and two found in Edessa, Turkey.

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>>1671974
>jew on a stick

>>1672588
You seem to be a man of science, how would you explain all the evidence for evolution and the Earth being billions of years old?

If you say you agree with me on this, then why would the bible say it's 6000 years old? Seems to me like it was not inspired by God, but was a product of the time and place it was written by humans.

The belief that the Earth is 6000 years old is totally false, why confuse people by stating this in your holy book? If this is falsex then what else in the bible is false? What good does this "metaphor" serve? What's the point, why not just state the fact that the Earth is biions of years old?

>>1672618
>and I'll take you seriously.
Nope, as said, no need to, you might win an argument on the internet, but you lose in the real world. And that makes me happy.

>>1672619
It is a shame they did not burn him on the stake, Jew-Kaboob would be even more funny.

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>>1672620
>how would you explain all the evidence for evolution and the Earth being billions of years old?
I'm not a proddy. The Catholic Church has no issues with science and the big bang theory actually comes from a belgian priest named Georges Lemaître, astronomer and professor of physics at the Catholic University of Leuven.

>why would the bible say it's 6000 years old
It does not, stop falling for atheist memes.

>written by humans
Yes.

>what else in the bible is false?
Nothing. There are also no contradictions. As I said, stop falling for atheist memes.

https://www.contradictingbiblecontradictions.com/?p=4288

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>>1672623
>still no argument, just tears
Scram kiddo.

>>1672641
Son, if a peer reviewed study is not an argument, then a discussion is not possible. So yeah, enjoy baby jebus while it lasts, I enjoy living in a country wiht a non religious majority, and so will you soon...

ITT: reddit BTFO

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>>1672646
Address >>1672588 >>1672591 and I'll take you seriously. What don't you understand? What is there to discuss?

The Holy Shroud is authentic.

Scientific evidence supports its authenticity.

Christ truly rose from the dead.

Christ is God and the truth doesn't change just because you don't want to hear it.

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>>1672646
Oh and I don't care if my country ever becomes atheist, I won't follow my country into hell though.

>Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
Matthew 7:13-14

>>1672028
>le Samaritans are not Hebrews meme

>>1672585
>Why would the disciples make it totally unclear which parts of the bible are literal anyway?
?

>>1672607
What I'm saying is that homosexuals deserve to be put to death. You're a bit slow aren't you?

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Every ritual and tradition does something to help the psyche and tries to prevent the ills caused by the human condition. For that alone, there is value in practicing religion.

You just have to get over your hubris.

>>1672588
It wasn't painted.
Forged does not mean painted.

>>1672669
No I'm not slow. But you took 25 minutes to come up with that none answer.

Because there is no reason to put faggots to death.

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>>1672674
Address >>1672588 >>1672591

>>1672677
>Because there is no reason to put faggots to death.
*DESERVE*

Do you not understand the meaning of this word?

>>1672678
I just did.

>>1672680
Yes I understand the meaning of the word. Your point is?

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>>1672681
You did not. Address each point and I'll take you seriously.

>>1672683
Read >>1672599

>>1672686
I just did.

>>1672689
read >>1672607

>>1672692
No, you've claimed that it was forged yet have provided no evidence to support your claim and have also failed to address each point of this paradigm >>1672588 >>1672591 which explains why it couldn't have been possibly forged.

The burden of proof is on you.

Why are athiests generally just bad people?

They take pleasure in trying to destroy the beliefs that other people hold dear, through some sort of strange sense of being "damaged" or "oppressed" by religion (usually just a victim complex), and barring doing any actual damage themselves, they take pleasure in pointing to statistics showing the decline of certain sects in certain countries.

And these are the same people who claim you can be a good person without religious guidance?

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>>1672692
Problems for the forgery theory:
The scourge marks on the Shroud are physiologically accurate. When examined under a microscope, each scourge mark reveals a slightly depressed center and raised edges. Under ultraviolet light each scourge mark can be seen to have a "halo" of lighter colour surrounding it. These halos were chemically tested and found to be blood serum which is left behind after a blood clot forms and then retracts inwards as it dries, a process called syneresis. These scourge mark indented centres and raised edges on the Shroud are not visible to the naked eye, but can only be seen when examined under a microscope and the serum halos can only be seen under ultraviolet light. This is further evidence that the Shroud could not have been created by an artist in the Middle Ages, or earlier, because that knowledge about blood clot structure, let alone a microscope and an ultraviolet light source to see it, did not then exist for many centuries into the future.

Each one of the over 100 scourge wounds on the Shroud matches exactly what would have been caused by a type of Roman flagrum buried in the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius in AD 79. So a fourteenth century or earlier forger would have had to possess a faultless archaeological knowledge of a first century Roman scourging with a flagrum as well as make no normal artists' mistakes since each one of the over 100 scourge marks has identical dimensions. Only from the Middle Ages did artists depict the scourging of Jesus and even the best of them were vague about the details. But the scourge-marks on the Shroud are depicted with a realism that is unknown to the art of any period.

Pic related, "Flagellation of Christ" by Duccio di Buoninsegna (c. 1255-1319). "The scourge marks are represented as red dribbles all over the body, including the arms but not the legs".

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>>1672692
Agnostic art historian Thomas de Wesselow states:
>"Once again, though, it [the Shroud] differs dramatically from anything envisaged in the Middle Ages. The vast majority of medieval images of the dead or dying Christ fail to depict any scourge marks at all … Christ is sometimes shown bleeding in depictions of the flagellation, but the effect is always rather crude. In Duccio's rendering of the scene, for example, the scourge marks are represented as red dribbles all over the body, including the arms but not the legs …The artist displays no knowledge of the Roman flagrum, nor any conception of how it was wielded. Even a fifteenth-century artist as accomplished as Jean Colombe, who definitely knew the Shroud, was unable to reproduce its convincing pattern of scourge marks … To attribute the marks on the Shroud to a provincial unknown working in the mid fourteenth century is therefore ridiculous"

Pic related, "Man of Sorrows" by Jean Colombe (c. 1430-1493). "Colombe, who definitely knew the Shroud, was unable to reproduce its pattern of scourge marks."

Moreover, the medieval or earlier forger would have had to use goniometry, the science of calculating angles, to correctly work out the angle of each one of the over 100 scourge marks on the Shroud, but the first goniometer was not invented until 1780.

In conclusion, the pattern of scourge wounds on the Shroud correlates remarkably closely with the Gospels' description of the scourging of Jesus and with what has, since the fourteenth century, been discovered by modern archaeology about first century Roman scourging.

>>1672700
>>1672704
It wasn't painted

>>1672699
>And these are the same people who claim you can be a good person without religious guidance?
Because you can. Sorry if pointing out that Christian religion is in decline in the western civilisation does hurt your feelings. Also sorry if I prefer living in a secular state and think your "morals" and "believes" should not be the standard for politics.
>must really suck being you in our day and age

>>1672712
Scientists say it is a forgery, pseudo scientists say it is jebus.
Even the catholic church is cautionous, but you know the truth better than anyone else, because you lube baby jebus so much.

>>1672754
>Scientists say it is a forgery
No.
>pseudo scientists say it is jebus
No.

Stop shitposting anon.

>>1672754
Address >>1672588 >>1672591

Here's reality:
>clueless atheists say it is a forgery
>shroud experts say it is authentic

>>1672757
>>1672759
That old rag seems to really get you jumping, sad that the peer reviewed carbon dating says something else...

>>1672816
The carbon dating has already been addressed.

Why don't you address his points instead of religiously repeating the same mantra?

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Every serious scholar accepts the Shroud as authentic. The methods used to arrive at this conclusion are not based on faith, but instead on precise mathematical arguments every atheist has to accept.

>b-but muh radiocarbon dating says it's from the thirteenth century
And they are precisely correct. If you knew any history you'd know that was exactly when Jesus lived and that history was only later misrepresented by both eastern and western ""scholars"".

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>>1672470
>pooland
/int/ here just to laugh at you

http://eight)ch.net/christian/res/308800.html

AUTIST(ATHEIST) B T F O

>>1672739
>must really suck being you
See? You're full of contempt for somebody based on their beliefs, and you claim to be a good person despite this. That is my point, the smug athiest is deep down a hateful person, and just puts on a facade of being nice to assist in their preaching. You are the religious zealot of a previous age, only now your religion is secularism.

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>>1672839
You're getting pretty desperate now.

It's quite embarrassing actually.

Holy Shroud's blood test results? AB-
Sudarium of Oviedo's blood test results? AB-
Lanciano’s Eucharistic Miracle's blood test results? AB-
AB- = 1% of the population

>Sixty-eight ancient skeletons, unearthed at Jerusalem and En Gedi and, according to the archeological data belonging to Jewish residents of these places from about 1,600 to 2,000 years ago, were ABO-typed by means of the hemagglutination-inhibition test. The blood groups of 13 skeletons were undiagnosable and the remaining 55 showed the following distribution: 30.91% A-group, 14.54% B-group, 50.91% AB-group and 3.64% O-group. According to these findings, the population to which these skeletons belonged must have had a high frequency of genes IA and IB, and a low occurrence of O blood group and its related IO gene.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/888938

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>>1672839
>>1672865
>New Chronology
Wait a second...

>>1672858
You can believe whatever you want and be happy with it. What makes me happy is that the state does not force religions and relgious moral standards down my throat.
Seriously, you can pray as much as you want as long as you keep it your private thing and do not demand special rules because godwilzit.

>>1672825
Same reason why I do not debatte with young earth creationists and other delusional fanatics.
You are free to bring up a peer reviewed study from a serious paper that says it is real and then we can debatte. Otherwise >ebin

lol more of this shroud shit
every fucking day with this

>>1672891
So again, you refuse to adress his points.

If it's so easy to discredit it, surely you are up to the task

>>1672865
So what you're saying is Jesus was Switz.

>>1672905
You cant discredit a fanatic, whatever you say they will ignore.

You can only point out that the academic community considers carbon dating in general to be reliable and the age of the shroud to be settled based on carbon dating results

>>1672754
You do know that I'm on your side don't you. see >>1672674

>>1672911
See >>1672553

>>1672911
>You can only point out that the academic community considers carbon dating in general to be reliable and the age of the shroud to be settled based on carbon dating results
Especially when 4 of the most prominent universities come to the same result independently, both in the control samples as in the test samples.

That guy wants to believe that the shroud is real, that Spain does not have an irreligious majority and that Christianity is not waning all over the western world. Now facts like polls, carbon datings etc. tell a different story, but this does not concern a true believer. So fuck it, do not debatte with them, let them live in their own reality and be content with it.

>>1672946
Stop strawmanning, I spoke about ATHEISM, not IRRELIGIOSITY.

>4 of the most prominent universities come to the same result independently, both in the control samples as in the test samples
See >>1672571 >>1672575 >>1672577 >>1672581 >>1672582

It is simply impossible that the Holy Shroud is a "medieval forgery", impossible.

Address >>1672588 >>1672591

Also read: >>1672610 >>1672615 >>1672616 >>1672618

>>1672964
>Address >>1672588 >>1672591
Its not a painting.

>>1672980
>it's not a painting
Of course it isn't.

>>1672613
>The Turin Shroud was examined with visible and ultraviolet spectrometry, infrared spectrometry, x-ray fluorescence spectrometry, thermography, pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry, lasermicroprobe Raman analyses, and microchemical testing. No evidence for pigments (paint, dye or stains) or artist’s media was found anywhere on the Shroud of Turin.

Then what is it? An extraterrestrial time traveling Jar Jar Binks did a photocopy like this in the Middle Ages >>1672610 ? Atheist mental gymnastics are truly remarkable.

I'm still waiting for you to address each point.

Reminder: >>1672615 >>1672616 >>1672618

>>1672945
>72
No one disputes that reserchers have published a bunch of stuff on the shroud, but the overall consensus remains the same. Unless you can produce new carbon dating tests the academic community will never accept your theory that the shroud is 2000 years old

>>1672964
>I spoke about ATHEISM, not IRRELIGIOSITY.
m8, functionally that's the same thing for his argument that Christianity is declining.

>>1672964
Yes lots of people have disputed the results but most scientists still consider them conclusive, and unless you can produce new carbon tests to back up your claims they will not go academic mainstream

>>1672878
I never demanded those rights, and I support a separation of church and state, but it's you who takes pleasure in seeing the decline of religion.

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>>1673007
>the overall consensus
There is no such thing.

>your theory
It's a theory as much as gravity is.

Since we know it has never left Europe since the Middle Ages and that you claim it's a "forgery" according to your theory backed up by mental gymnastics and zero evidence, how do you explain >>1672615 >>1672616 >>1672618 >>1672865 if it's not from the Levant?

I'll wait.

Reminder: >>1672604 >>1672605

>>1673049
>There is no such thing.
and by that I mean "an overall consensus" which agrees with your denial.

Reminder: >>1672553

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>>1673016
Read >>1672571 >>1672575 >>1672577 very carefully.

>>1672964
>It is simply impossible that the Holy Shroud is a "medieval forgery", impossible.
Well what else could it be?
I'm curious what you consider "possible".

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>>1672964
>It is simply impossible that the Holy Shroud is a "medieval forgery", impossible.
>mfw

>>1673086
Is an actual shroud of Jesus that hard to believe in?

You don't even have to believe he was the messiah or performed miracles for you to consider the possibility that this was the shroud he was buried in

>>1673094
How do you know it was (((Jesus))) or any other specific person?

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>>1673086
>Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Matthew 19:26

Thread theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-PWZvwUeiI

>>1673099
The marks on the body match the ones of Gospel accounts.

Of course, it could just be any other body, but in any case it isn't a forgery

>>1671974
So you are telling me i am supposed to listen to some Pedophile camel fucker turned """"""""""""prophet"""""""""" who destroyed and conquered ancient Mesopotamian, whose followers would destroy millennias worth of European history?

>>1673093
Address >>1672588 >>1672591

>>1673105
>it could just be any other body
No actually. >>1672604 >>1672605

No other man in the history of the Universe was scourged, given a crown of thorns, crucified, didn't have his legs broken and then had a lance thrown into his right side.

>>1673119
>No other man in the history of the Universe was scourged, given a crown of thorns, crucified, didn't have his legs broken and then had a lance thrown into his right side.

That doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility for medieval people to duplicate.

What about the confession?

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>>1673125
The letter of 28 May 1356 is the only extant document of Bishop Henri de Poitiers which bears upon the question. Its contents are a direct refutation of what is alleged in the Memorandum; the Bishop informs Geoffroy I that he is satisfied with all he has done for the divinum cultum and adds his laudamus, ratificamus, approbamus (we praise, ratify and approve). Chevalier merely lists this document without reporting its text. In fact, there exists no document relating to Henri de Poitier's inquiry, no document alluding to his appointing a commission, nor the confession of an artist.

http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/ssi08part5.pdf

Didn't Prof. Allen successfully reproduce it?

>>1673124
Why don't you try reading his posts on why that is impossible before shitposting?

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>>1673132
The proto-photography theory proposed by Prof. Nicholas Allen was able to create an image on linen cloth, but not one that duplicated the image properties of the Shroud of Turin. When attempting to provide a viable image formation mechanism for the Shroud, one has to account for all of the image properties, not just a few of them. Allen failed to understand certain important facets of the image on the Shroud of Turin. Much as it truly takes a professional artist to properly evaluate a painting, so too must photography be evaluated by the professional photographer. In the case of the proto-photography theory, other professional evaluations of Allen's theory have reached similar conclusions.

Admittedly, Allen was able to create a viable photographic image using medieval raw materials, but he did so from the perspective of 21st century science. Surely raw materials must exist on our planet today that may eventually lead to the development of interstellar travel, but their mere existence is not enough to actually provide us with the technology.

That will have to wait until our technological development advances to a much higher level than exists today. If we accept the argument that the mere existence of certain raw materials is reason enough to believe someone actually used them to invent a technology that was still 500 years in the future, we should start searching archaeological sites around the world for the remains of medieval cellular phones, microwave ovens and nuclear weapons! Just because the raw materials for these highly advanced technologies existed, doesn't mean someone actually created them, particularly before human knowledge advanced enough technologically to truly make this possible.

https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/orvieto.pdf

Great blog topic on this:
http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.ca/2016/08/medieval-photography-nicholas-allen.html

What about Prof. Garlaschelli?

>>1673132
With MODERN tech.

They didn't have the ability to reproduce it that faithfully in the middle ages

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>>1673137
This excellent response was written October 6, 2009 by Petrus Soons, noted Shroud researcher who produced the first three-dimensional holographic images of the Shroud. Petrus presented his dramatic results at the Ohio Shroud Conference in August 2008:

In the last few days, a story appeared in the mass media that an Italian professor of chemistry at the University of Pavia (Italy), reproduced the image on the Shroud of Turin using materials and methods that were available in the 14th century, concluding that the experiment proves the relic was man-made. Basically, he used a linen cloth in scale 1:1, that was baked at 215 degrees C for 3 hours and then put it in a washing machine with water only. Then they put a person dirtied with RED OCHRE (IRON OXIDE) on the linen and corrected by hand the colored image. A chalk bas relief was used for the face printing, liquid tempera simulated the blood and sulfuric acid at 1.2% in water added with Aluminium and Cobalt modified the linen surface. An artificial aging was the final treatment before the pigment was washed. The final goal was to show that it was possible to create a fake in the 14th century.

Now, there is nothing new to this. In 1979, Walter C. McCrone (1916-2002), an internationally recognized microscopist and the director of the famous McCrone Associates Research Laboratory in Chicago, reported that the Shroud image was due to the application of RED OCHRE, also known as Venetian red (an earth color) a red artist's pigment, which is a red IRON OXIDE, so probably Prof Garlaschelli took over this idea from Walter C. McCrone.

This theory was already disproved by the scientific STURP team (and others in the years after that) that conducted the investigations in 1978 on the Shroud of Turin.

(1/4)

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>>1673137
Their conclusions were:

1) Adler reported that the " straw yellow color" of the body image fibers does not match the color of any of the known forms of ferric iron oxides.

2) Moreover, Adler reports that there is no correspondence of the body-only images to the concentration of iron oxide since the spectral characteristics of the body-only image are different from those of iron oxide.

3) The colors of the fibers, due to iron oxide, is also precluded by the fact that oxidation or reduction converts the yellow fibers of the body-only image to a white color.

4) Only rare particles of iron oxide are noted on the body-only image fibrils.

5) Large amounts of iron bound to the cellulose of the Shroud (not iron oxide) and Calcium were both present throughout the Shroud. This is believed to be due to the ability of linen to bind iron and water by ion association during the retting process (manufacturing process by which linen is immersed in water during fermentation). AN ESTIMATED 90 PERCENT of the iron and calcium exist in this form bound to the cellulose of the linen, AND ONLY A SMALL AMOUNT IS PRESENT AS IRON OXIDE.

6) X-ray studies of the body-only image do not contain enough iron oxide to show up on the X-radiographs.

7) All of the iron of the Shroud, whether from iron oxide particles or from blood, proved to be 99 percent chemically pure, with no discernable MANGANESE, NICKEL, or COBALT.

(2/4)

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>>1673137
The earth pigment, RED OCHRE (Venetian red), from either medieval or older sources that were being used, was contaminated with manganese, nickel or cobalt GREATER THAN 1 PERCENT!!! The STURP team employed microprobe Raman spectroscopy, mass spectroscopy, optical and infrared spectroscopy, micro FTIR spectroscopy, pyrolysis mass spectroscopy, X-ray and a variety of microchemical tests on the fibrils, and came to the conclusion that there was NO ochre or other pigments, dyes or stains on the fibrils of the Shroud.

Prof Garlaschelli told Republica he didn't think his research would convince those who have faith in the Shroud's authenticity. " They won't give up," he said. Those who believe in it will continue to believe." Well, the reason why serious scientists do not believe Prof Garlaschelli's work has been explained.

Prof Garlaschelli explains the absence of any traces of iron oxide on the original Shroud by stating that the pigment on the original Shroud faded away naturally over the centuries. This is not a statement that you would expect from a serious scientist. The spectroscopic investigations being done in 1978 would even show the slightest traces of iron oxide present on the Shroud and it is a little bit "unscientific" to state that they disappeared "naturally."

(3/4)

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>>1673137
He also mentions the fact that his image shows 3D qualities. Well that is a field that I am very familiar with having produced with a team of experts the first holograms of the Shroud image. The uniqueness of the Shroud-image is that hidden in the gray-scale (image density) is distance information, meaning that the image on the Shroud varies inversely with the cloth-to-body distance. When converting the grayscale from 2D to 3D, the result is an anatomically correct image of a human being, contrary to the result that you will obtain using any other image (photograph, painting etc.), including the one of Prof. Garlaschelli, that always will show distortions, like the nose pressed into the face and protruding cheeks etc. etc., which means that this unique distance info is not present.

Another little detail is the fact that on the original Shroud there is no image under the bloodstains, proving the fact that there were two image formation processes. Direct contact for the blood proper and another image formation process for the image itself. Prof Garlaschelli added the "blood" (liquid tempera) later on top of the image that he had created. Under Ultra Violet fluorescence photography (not known of course in the 14th century), the blood on the Shroud shows a serum separation, visible as a lighter ring around a darker center, which is typical of post mortem wound exudate. This is not visible with the naked eye. The proposed artist from the 14th century could of course not have known this fact, so he could not create it either.

(4/4)

http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/soonsresponse.pdf

>>1673134
Why is it impossible for medieval people to do something that Romans were capable of doing?

>>1673108

I don't need to, you've already exposed yourself as a charlatan

>>1673124
>realm of possibility
How? With the help of E.T.? >>1672588 >>1672591 >>1673049

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>>1673154
>I don't need to provide arguments to support my claims!
>*name-calling*
See >>1672641

>>1673151
What, you believe the church crucified and tortured some guy and got details that were only known centuries later correct, sprinkled on some dust and pollen from Jerusalem so they could fool modern tier science half a millennium later?

>>1673157
Are you saying that it is impossible for medieval technology to whip, crucify, and stab a human being and then wrap him in a lenin cloth?

What this ancient Roman secret lost during the Dark Ages?

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>>1673167
Atheists actually believe that, as I said, their mental gymnastics are full of surprises.

>>1673170
See this anon's post >>1673167 and my reply to it.

>>1673166

Okay, here's a counter: everything you've presented so far is unfalsifiable garbage. No one even needs to take it into consideration, because you don't accept that you can be wrong on the first place, which is why only a fool will take your walls of text seriously.

>>1673167
If they were really into creating relics back then I don't see why that's impossible.

>>1673170
And the part where they correctly nailed his wrists and not palms which was how they thought they used to do it and reproduced a proper roman scourge?

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>>1673119
Crucification was the most common execution method in the 1st century, and executions were plentiful back then. I'm pretty sure within those hundreds of years some people are going to have that or similar things happen to them.
Not to mention that the claims with which you describe the shroud are ridiculous. Just look at this shit: "Forensic qualities to his image that would only be known to 20th century science"? They didn't even flatten the head. They didn't even get the blood colour right (it would be faded brown, not such a bright red). Actually, why was there even blood? Jewish rites demand the body and cloths to be washed from blood, both before wrapping and upon unwrapping. There wouldn't even be blood.
Rather than with some Chrstian researchers doing ad-hoc rationalizations and motivated reasoning, stick with the most reliable evidence we know of, the Carbon dating from three independent research teams.

>>1673180
The problem isn't the why; it's the how.

Unless they were employing aliens or time travelers they couldn't have gotten the details that correctly

>>1673182
Maybe they knew about genuine roman practices and equipment.

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>>1673175
>Okay *sniff* here's the problem...y-you've provided so much scientific evidence *sniff* and y-y-you actually *sniff* believe in your claims which you've backed up a-a-and *massages butt* now I-I-I-I don't know what to do s-s-o I'll just *sniff* ignore it all, call it unfalsifiable garbage a-a-and call it a day *sniff*

>>1673191
You have 0 (zero) proof of this.

If they had knowledge of this; why did then only show it here and not in any other painting? If it's a forgery; and they want people to believe it's a forgery; you'd think they'd pierce the palms
Also; if it was really made by them; why was he naked; which in the 14th century was considered the tabooest of taboos?

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If only Jesus lived in XIX century instead. Imagine all the guillotines everywhere.

>>1673192
lel christkuks

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>>1673183
>Crucification was the most common execution method in the 1st century, and executions were plentiful back then.
I know.
>I'm pretty sure within those hundreds of years some people are going to have that or similar things happen to them.
What similar things? Someone else other than Christ was given a crown of thorns, crucified, didn't have his legs broken and then had a lance thrown into his right side?

These marks, combined with the capping of thorns is not found anywhere else in crucifixion literature of ancient Roman (Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the Elder or Pliny the Younger) or Jewish (Flavius Joesphus, Philo of Alexandria). See >>1672604 >>1672605

>>1673183
>Actually, why was there even blood? Jewish rites demand the body and cloths to be washed from blood, both before wrapping and upon unwrapping. There wouldn't even be blood.
Bait?

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>>1673200
>>>/r/atheism

>>1673198
I'm saying it's plausible and you think it's utterly "impossible" for some reason.

>>1673183
>Crucification
Why should anyone take you seriously?

>>1673220
Sorry; practically impossible.

Your logic has got so many leaps in it it's insane

>>1672658
>Samaritans ate the same as Hebrews
Idk if I've ever heard anything so retarded in my life

>>1673224
"Some humans fabricated it" generally seems like a better explanation for any relic than "God did a miracle".

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>>1673234

>>1673203
>Someone else other than Christ was given a crown of thorns, crucified, didn't have his legs broken and then had a lance thrown into his right side?
Yes. You have hundreds of years time to find someone like that amongst how many executed people? Hundreds of thousands? That's especially easy after that meme that this happened gets out and people want to make a quick buck off gullible Christian relic customers.

Besides, you are assuming that this is actually what corresponds to the marks seen on the shroud. I can't see jack shit there. Looks more like a case of pattern recognition and confirmation bias to me.

>>1673204
>>1673221
Clear me up then, instead of just pointing out that I'm wrong. I don't care enough about Christianity to waste more time on this.

>>1673236
stale memes as expected
did you run out of trenchcoat fedoras or bible verses?

>>1673234
Literally where was it said that there's a miracle involved? You can believe it's Jesus' shroud without even believing he's the messiah or that he did miracles; merely that it's the shroud he was buried in.

It's kind of sad that you've been so BTFO you need to strawman like an idiot

>>1671974
>illiterate
but could write in amaric you retard

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>>1673239
>Someone else other than Christ was given a crown of thorns, crucified, didn't have his legs broken and then had a lance thrown into his right side
Atheists actually believe this.

Wow.

>>1673243
How do you know that it's (((Jesus)))'s shroud specifically?

>>1673187

What details are you referring to?

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>>1673242
>stale
It describes your post perfectly.

Can't handle the truth?

>>1673247
> Christ was given a crown of thorns, crucified, didn't have his legs broken and then had a lance thrown into his right side

>Christians actually believe this. Wow.

If it can happen once, why can't it happen twice?

>>1673244
Aramaic, Hebrew, Latin and probably Greek too.

>>1673247
What would physically prevent that series of events from taking place?

>>1673247
Law of Large Numbers.

>>1673249
This has already been answered; a crucified after image is nothing special; but one that has marks around the head which fits thorns; who didn't have his legs broken; who was pierced on his right side with a spear and had pollen and dust from the area around Jerusalem
>>1673250
>nails through wrists
>pollen and dust from Jerusalem
>proper Roman scourge as well as marks
>see above

>>1673243
Is it really a strawman, does no Christian consider the shroud to be a miracle?
If so I apologize for assuming it was a common idea.

>>1673264
Well if they do they're stupid.

By itself the shroud is nothing miraculous; merely confirms that a Jesus like person existed

>>1673252
> Christ was given a crown of thorns, crucified, didn't have his legs broken and then had a lance thrown into his right side
>Christians actually believe this.
Yes and so do atheist historians.

>If it can happen once, why can't it happen twice?
Because there is zero evidence that it happened twice and it is EXTREMELY unlikely.

>>1673263
How do you know those particular details couldn't have been duplicated by a dedicated forger?

>>1673257
Reality.

>>1673263

Why would any of that be new information not previously available?

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>>1673270

>>1673271
What physical mechanism of reality prevents it?

>>1673270
How about you scroll up before replying?
>>1673273
Because
>every other piece of art has the palms pierced, and even modern interpretations have this. Having the wrists pierced; especially at that time and place, and to only use it this shroud and nowhere else; is suspect
>no need to place the dust and pollen; especially don't need to get it specially from Jerusalem because a method of detecting them will only be discovered half a millennium later
>using a scourge and then losing it

>>1673279
See >>1673203

>>1673286
So if hypothetically some medival forger deliberately tried to recreate the Crucifixion of Christ to create a relic, as they attempted the series of physical steps, they would find that they would be physically prevented from following through with it somehow?

>>1672422
>no-one here is hysterical about muslims

Utter bullshit. Immigration is the hottest topic in Europe right now and the number one reason voters gave for voting leave in Brexit. You're talking out your fucking ass

>>1671974
Telephone is an orally transmitted game.

the bible is a written tradition.

Two totally different things.

The best thing you could ever do in your life is take Luke at his word.

>>1673203

ohshit the turin shroud autist is back

shoo

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You all faggots seem to forget one thing; even if the guy portrayed in the shroud was actually Jesus, it doesn't prove it came back from the death. Check mate, Xristosfags.

>>1673269
>It is EXTREMELY unlikely.
Not really. Especially if you were literally trying to replicate it.

>>1673298
A modern artist actually did reproduce the exact same sort of image by laying a linen cloth over a mannequin, using some sort of dry ochre die to stain it, and then baking it until all of the organics are gone.

Left the exact same sort of markings as the turin shroud. Exact.

The reason the turin shroud is a fake is easily demonstrated.

If you fold it over itself to where the body would be in the middle, it's clear that the body could not be more than an inch thick for the images to line up.

>>1673312
>gets so BTFO he has to strawman like an absolute madman
Sad!

Nobody is arguing whether he's really the son of god or not; merely that it isn't a forgery.

This thread has fully shown me the state of modern atheism

>>1673312
Jesus came back from the dead whether you believe it or not, or whether you think it sufficiently documented or not. It's not up to you.

>>1673323
The forger actually confessed to the forgery back in the 16th century.

It's a forgery.

>>1673321
See >>1673140 >>1673143 >>1673144 >>1673150

Nice try.

>>1673328
See >>1673129

Nice try.

Still waiting for someone to address >>1672588 >>1672591 btw.

>>1673323
>implying I am an atheist
Nah, I actually believe in esoteric Tibetan Buddhist non-sense.

>>1673320
You would definitely not get as realistic results as the shroud has
>>1673321
Yes; with modern knowledge; which the assumed medieval forgers would have no knowledge about
>If you fold it over itself to where the body would be in the middle, it's clear that the body could not be more than an inch thick for the images to line up.

Wow; why ever did they do the carbon testing when they could've just folded it over; genius answer anon

>>1673338
Oh, no, I've been down this rabbit hole with you before and have discovered that you are quite insane, immune to logic, and no lover of Christ Jesus.

You can have your idiotic conversations with atheists, to whom you believe you are superior (but are not).

>>1673346
Linen, ochre, and an oven.

Medieval people had all three.

You're just a fucking asshole, and I wish you would disappear back to wherever the fuck you came from.

>>1673323
You keep complaining about "strawman" but it seems like many Christians really do think the Shroud is a miracle.
You condemn "the state of modern atheism" because of this? If what you say is true and the Shroud has nothing to do with God whatsoever, why do you blame "atheists" for questioning it?

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>>1673341
>Atheist
>Atheist New Age nu-male
Pick two.

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>>1673348
>Oh no my claim has been refuted! I better strawman now to try to save face!

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>mfw atheists deny that the bible was written by god himself when their precious so-called "scientists" keep finding fish fossils on top of gigantic mountains which is clear proof that the Great Flood happened

>>1673325
>Jesus came back from the dead whether you believe it or not, or whether you think it sufficiently documented or not. It's not up to you.
[citation needed]

>>1673353
>ochre
See >>1673140 >>1673143 >>1673144 >>1673150

Reminder: >>1673049

>>1673359
>bible was written by god himself
I smell an atheist false-flag.

>>1673353
And the knowledge to pierce the wrists instead of the palms?
The knowledge to reproduce an actual roman time scourge?
The knowledge to sprinkle Jerusalem pollen and dust to fool scientists they didn't even knew existed?

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>>1673356
>resorting to plain ad-hominems
You seem desperate, crusader redneck.

>>1673369

It was written by God himself and is therefore the only truly accurate history ever written. What kind of shitty two-bit Christian are you?

>>1673374
>desperate
Nice projection.
>redneck
I'm not an american proddy.

>>1673269
>it is EXTREMELY unlikely.
That would just make it extremely unlikely that it would happen. It wouldn't mean that it can't happen. History is choke full of unlikely events, like what happened to Jesus. Or specifically you posting on this image board. Or people winning the lottery. Hell, there are people that won the lottery four times.

Oh, wait, half of the things that you described happening to him aren't even particularly unlikely events: It isn't particularly unthinkable that, on a busy Friday, a Roman legionary was lazy (and skipped breaking someone's leg), or maybe wanted to torture (shit hurts) or deliver (it hastens death) a crucification victim. Maybe he was bribed to do so? Heck, depending on the century we're talking about, he may even have intentionally brought about someone's death in such a way that he could claim that the foreskin he's holding is that of Jesus. And, of course, we wouldn't have evidence of that because nobody cares about what legionary Marcus Tullius did on a Friday evening in 302 A.D., except when a bunch of people make a desert cult of the guy whom he pierced with his lance. Maybe then we'd have a shroud of that guy, too.

>>1673370
Easy as fuck. They just crucified a random Arab in the middle ages in Jerusalem during Easter, doing exactly as it is written in the New Testament. Please, the church did worse things.

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lol superstition

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>>1673376
I'm an actual Christian, not an atheist false-flagging LARPer like you trying to change the current subject of the thread, i.e.: the authenticity of the Holy Shroud

>>1673384
See >>1673203 and >>1673049

Also address >>1672588 >>1672591 instead of shitposting.

>>1673393

If you were a real Christian you wouldn't care

>>1673385
And E.T. with alien technology helped them? Address >>1672588 >>1672591.

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>it's that time of the day and your Æutism is acting up again

>>1673410
This Holy Shroud posting is in response to an atheist who claimed there is no scientific evidence. Read Romans 14:13 and stop shitposting if you're an actual Christian.

>>1673419

But there is no scientific evidence apart from if you only look at skewed biased studies, which is inherently unscientific itself.

Not even the pope believes it real, and dont bother posting your links

>>1673385
This post is so wrong it's almost funny.

So the Islamic authorities of the time would just let the church crucify one of their subjects; no problems at all?

Also why do it at Jerusalem? Just sprinkle some random pollen and dust in Italy or whatever?

And why pierce the wrists when you think they pierced the palms?

>>1673413
>le autism meme
Copying and pasting facts which trigger atheists is very easy.

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>>1673430

>being this triggered
>having another Æutistic fit

>>1673419
>You should beleive in things without evidence, this is called the virtue of Faith which God loves, doubt is a sin
>except for wacky relics which are rock-solid EVIDENCE for God, no faith required

lol Christians

>>1673428
>there is no scientific evidence except the scientific evidence which I dislike
See >>1673236
>Not even the pope believes it real
[citation needed] and what the Pope believes in is irrelevant.

>Faced with disconcerting episodes of violent fundamentalism, our respect for true followers of Islam should lead us to avoid hateful generalisations, for authentic Islam and the proper reading of the Koran are opposed to every form of violence.
Pope Francis, Evangelii Gaudium, Ch. 4, 253.
http://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20131124_evangelii-gaudium.html#Interreligious_dialogue

>>1673429
You know Muslims crucify people to this day.

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>>1673440
>>1673453

>After years of discussion, the Holy See permitted radiocarbon dating on portions of a swatch taken from a corner of the shroud. Independent tests in 1988 at the University of Oxford, the University of Arizona, and the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology concluded with 95% confidence that the shroud material dated to 1260–1390 AD.[77] This 13th to 14th century dating is much too recent for the shroud to have been associated with Jesus of Nazareth. The dating does on the other hand match the first appearance of the shroud in church history.[78][79]

>>1673453
Watching you "cite" your meme posts is almost as funny as quoting bible verses.
Keep fighting them warlocks and slychics.

>>1673460
yes; but I doubt they'd let the church carry off the body

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>>1673462
See >>1672571 >>1672575 >>1672577 >>1672581 >>1672582

I'm still waiting for you to address >>1672588 >>1672591 by the way.

>>1673467
They probably just tortured this dude in a dungeon workshop.

>>1673470
>>1673157

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>mfw the shroud is authentic

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>>1673453
>and what the Pope believes in is irrelevant.
Matthew 16:18-19. Whether it's your opinion that the Pope is not the head of the church, it isn't up to you.
Fucking heresiac.

>>1673467
Why?

>>1673449
Funny philosophical system, isn't it?

>>1673468

This "new study" which "proves" it dates from 30 a.d has absolutely no citation, how come its not mentioned on wikipedia?

>>1673471
Why would you need ET, you fallacious retard.

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>>1673477
>The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. . . . The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium," above all in an Ecumenical Council. When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed," and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith." This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.
CCC 891
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p4.htm

Nice try anon.

>>1673471
I prayed to God and God told me he sent Aliens from Uranus to grant the medieval forgers the one-time use of otherworldly and impossible alien technology of whips, thorns, nails, and the knowledge to not break leg bones, in order to create the shroud to give Shroudanon a reason to believe in Jesus 800 years later.

God's love and power is infinite so if you doubt a single jot or tittle of what God told me then you are a heathen sinner.

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>>1673485
>how come its not mentioned on wikipedia?
Gee, I wonder why!

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>>1673468

And we're waiting for a cure for Æutism, so that you and us can carry on with our lives

>>1673494
>>/x/

>>1673485
It isn't even indexed. Fucking Christfags.

>>1673468
>>1672588
>agree to a method, because it is known to be extremely reliable
>method disproves your held belief
>in hindsight rationalize why the method was actually not proper, ignore the results
>come up with new, shittier methods and evidence
>don't publish it in peer-reviewed high quality journals, because you know that you will be blown the fuck out (again)
>also don't repeat the first experiment, because you know that you will be blown the fuck out (again)
>base reasoning on this new shitty evidence
Okay.

Call me when you start doing science.

>>1673497
The shroud asshole is not a christian.

>>1673488
>Xristosfags actually believe in this bullshit.
Most gullible idiots ever.

>>1673500
Not sure what you're babbling about in the beggining of your post.
>don't publish it in peer-reviewed high quality journals, because you know that you will be blown the fuck out (again)
Yeah, no. See:
>>1672553
>secular peer-reviewed scientific journal articles on the Shroud of Turin:
>http://shroud.typepad.com/topics/2005/10/secular_peerrev.html

Call me when you'll be ready to address >>1672588 >>1672591

>>1673502
t. proddy